Why is there no Guilliman Heresy?

[_Caesar_]

Guilliman was off in the east and was unable to make it to the defense of Terra. Some say he was held up at Calth (but the forces that attacked him WERE involved in the siege). Some say he was held up at another battle were he suffered severe losses (but still maintained 3/5 of all "loyal" marines). How could he be held up at another battle when his father and his father's empire were under attack. We can blame the powers of the warp for holding him back and allowing the Word Bearers to make it to the siege. Or, we can say that he held back to ensure that he and he alone would have the manpower required to ensure his dominance.

 

Actually, the Word Bearers that attacked Calth and the Word Bearers that attacked Terra were two different forces. Lorgar split his Legion leaving the majority of it under Kor Phaeron's command at Calth to squash the Ultramarines while he commanded a smaller force of Word Bearers that had been garrisoned near Terra (still pretending to be loyalists). When Horus and friends launched their attack on Terra, Lorgar and the smaller force of Word Bearers joined him.

[Combat_Vet]

@Caesar - You are right, I am wrong. Sorry, there was a huge difference in the fluff I was reading and the IA article for the Word Bearers. Thanks for bringing that up.

[Combat_Vet]

Sorry, double post.

[_Caesar_]

No worries. I think there's mention of it as well in Battle for the Abyss as well as Mechanicum.

[Marshal Rohr]

2nd Edition is THE fluff, most stuff today is a reworded version of that. You can't not count 2nd Edition fluff without not counting most new fluff.

 

But he was't in command of the other Legions, Guilliman wasn't even in charge of the other Legions when the Codex was presented. Tactical Command is very different from actual command.

 

From the line about Guilliman it can only provide evidence that he was doing it to provide stablility.

[Hrvat]

I do not have the exact quotes but in the HH novels Dorn also becomes the chief Imperial Commander during the Heresy through beining the Emperors Pretorian.

[Marshal Rohr]

If that truly is the case, then Guilliman still didn't usurp his position. Dorn abdicated it to hunt down the traitors, and that is God's Honest Gospel.

[Hrvat]

Indeed Guilliman did not usurp anything, because with the death of Horus the Heresy ended and all Primarch are equal again.

 

Also many people either do not know or have forgotten how things turned out after the battle of Terra.

 

Following the battle just before the begining of the scouring the most powerful men in the empire gathered and formed the High Lords of Terra which was made out of living Primarchs and some other people.

 

From the non-related info we see that out of the Primarchs Russ and Dorn did not take part in the workings of the council but focused all their energy on hunting down the traitors. The evidence is only concidential but it seams Lion was doing the same thing.

 

The reamining members of the council then decided that Guilliam be made the supreme commander of Imperial forces until the crisis passes. So Guilliman did not take power he was given it by his peers, because of the lack of other candidates. Russ and Lion had their legions in roughly the same state as Guilliman and both had won far renown before the HH.

 

 

Then there is the Dorn incident.

Well people forget that during the scouring most Marine formations accepted the Codex way of fighting as their own and when the 2nd founding came to be it was mostly just transition with 3 out of 9 legions having problems with breaking up which went alongside the codex. Dorn and Guilliman exchanged harsh words and we are told that new chapters and old legions were arming up for war. Russ, Dorn and Vulkan against the others. When I believe some over enthusiastic Navy officer fired on the IF Dorn relented but I do not understand why Russ and Vulkan did. Is it possible they were willing to make war on the new(Guillimans) Imperium just for the sake of Dorn?

 

 

But there is one subject that was missed in this topic which in the eyes of the Ordo Hereticus/Maleus would pain Guilliman as a traitor and heretic. His very work Codex Astartes is a heretical tome.

 

Now most people will say nonsense but if you look closer you will see my point.

The Codex icludes all the military wisdom of the Great Crusade. We are told (as players) the knowledge of Konrad, Perturabo, Alpharius and who knows who else is in it. To give praise to the Codex is in a way unintentionaly giving praise to these Daemon Princes of Chaos. And should the Inquisition find out that Guilliman used heretical knowledge I am quite sure that Ultramarines would slowly start to lose their point of prominence and then the Imperium is left with no one to look to. The Wolves are to much of a trouble, the Templars are nutjobs who listen to knowone and then you have the Codex Chapters which are tainted by chaos. No wonder this is called the Grim Millenium ;)

 

 

Cheers

 

Hrvat

[Marshal Rohr]

Wisdom is Wisdom, and the Inquisition holds no authority over the Astartes. The codex is the best, because it has no peer, it is the combined tactical knowledge of humanity. The Inquisition can take a flying leap, they have no say in any part of the Astartes Combat Doctrine, and no one considers it heretical knowledge.

 

Russ is a great fighter but he is no administrator. Again, Guilliman was the most qualified so he did it. I would imagine because he wants to show mortals that a Primarch can lead with absolute power and not fall AND because no one can do it better. Russ didn't relent and Vulkan was at Codex size to begin with, and they still follow their own organizational doctrine. Your seeing division where there isn't any, the only Primarch split was the 8 vs. the 8. The rest were disagreements eventually resolved.

[Legatus]

An Imperial ship that falls under Guilliman fires on a marine vessel and it was at the ship commanders iniative? i doubt they would have fired without some kind of guidance.

There just had been a galaxy wide heresy with hojillions of losses, then navy, gurad and astarted have been separated, and now one of the Astartes Legions is acting up and does not want to comply with imperial decree. I don't think it was too much out of line for an imperial navy commander to be very nervous about the Imperial Fists at that moment.

 

Guilliman was off in the east and was unable to make it to the defense of Terra. Some say he was held up at Calth

Some say the Ultramarines just happened to be on the far end of the galaxy, which in it's own made it impossible for them to arrive on terra in time. The story about calth has been added later, probably to at least give the Ultramarines some sort of combat to their credit during the heresy.

 

I had always assumed that the Fists, Wolves, Ultras, Blood Angels, and Dark angels were considered loyal between the drop site massacre and the siege of Terra. As the Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Sallies were decimated at Istvaan, Dorn would have been in command of five legions plus naval and army (guard) forces.

You forgot the White Scars.

 

The Codex icludes all the military wisdom of the Great Crusade. We are told (as players) the knowledge of Konrad, Perturabo, Alpharius and who knows who else is in it. To give praise to the Codex is in a way unintentionaly giving praise to these Daemon Princes of Chaos. And should the Inquisition find out that Guilliman used heretical knowledge I am quite sure that Ultramarines would slowly start to lose their point of prominence and then the Imperium is left with no one to look to.

They were all doing good work during the great cursade. The Codex does not describe how awesome it was when Fulgrim killed Guilliman. It may describe how some of Fulgrims troop formations were very effective, and how a good use of Apothecaries can cut down the number of losses of Marines. It may describe how the Primarch Perturabe was approaching sieges with his Astartes material when he was still fighting in the crusade. I doubt it goes into detail how daemon engines are best applied in such situations.

[Marshal Rohr]

Don't forget the passages form the book of Lorgar summoning support only in the direst of circumstances.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

An Imperial ship that falls under Guilliman fires on a marine vessel and it was at the ship commanders iniative? i doubt they would have fired without some kind of guidance.

There just had been a galaxy wide heresy with hojillions of losses, then navy, gurad and astarted have been separated, and now one of the Astartes Legions is acting up and does not want to comply with imperial decree. I don't think it was too much out of line for an imperial navy commander to be very nervous about the Imperial Fists at that moment.

 

Given the high proportion of Imperial Army units that turned with their Space Marine masters, I don't think it would have been too out of line for the Legion that led the defence of Terra to fire on an ex-Imperial Army ship that they don't recognise and has offered hostile action against them. :P

[Combat_Vet]

The more I look into this the more I am convinced that my ideas are sound. Even if we take the changes of fluff into acount it seems that the only chapter to gain from these changes is the Ultras. I understand that one chapter has to be the example for all the others. It just seems odd the things that come up the further you look into the Ultramarines, Guilliman and the Imperium from the fall of the Emperor to the "present" time.

 

 

2nd Edition

 

Codex Imperialis:

 

1) Although not drawn up until the Emperor’s incarceration, the Codex Astartes is commonly taken as his work

2) The organization of the space marines was laid down by the High Lords of Terra

 

Codex Ultramarines:

 

1) A council was formed of the most powerful men, they called themselves the High Lords of Terra….. their SELF-

PROCLAIMED role was to rule on behalf of the Emperor

2) History does not record the names of the first High Lords. However, Ultramarines relate that Guilliman was of them

3) Guilliman become Lord Commander of the Imperium, first to carry the title and the only man to ever command the

entirety of the armed forces

4) The Ultramarines soon became the largest Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties

5) Fought in the southern edge of the galaxy at the start of the heresy

6) Main success was the destruction of a large Chaos force heading to reinforce Horus

7) Ultramarines were largely untouched by the fighting of the Heresy

8) The Ultramarines successfully held the Imperium together during a time of intense danger

9) Soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half the total number of marines

10) As a result of the Second Founding the Ultramarines gene-seed became the stock type

 

Even without going into RT fluff we still see major changes to the fluff. Guilliman has gone from being unaffected by the Horus Heresy, to fighting a battle at Calth, then fighting a major battle on Tallarn. We also see the Codex itself go from being regarded as the Emperor's work to the greatest work of Guilliman himself. Guilliman set down laws and rules that would ensure that no man would have "too much" power, yet he was at the time appointed commander of ALL Imperial forces (the ONLY man to ever have so much power).

 

As far as the Emperor showing Dorn that he was wrong in a vision, I'm not sure how that is proven in the fluff. If the Emperor had said "you are wrong, Guilliman is right" he would not have taken his men into the trap set by Perturabo. If he had still fought this battle he would not have refused Guillimans aid at the very least. It is just as easy to say that the Emperor said "make your forces mobile and do not allow Guilliman to control everything". Dorn would then have reason to fight the Cage, make his new chapters crusade forces and then return with the remnants to Terra.

 

Guilliman was never chosen by the Emperor. That is plain and simple fact. The very wording of the fluff shows that Guilliman did take power in the absence of the Emperor. Guilliman's greatest gift was timing. We see this three times in the fluff:

 

1) the death of Konor - Guilliman is off fighting when he returns just as his adoptive father is dying. Guilliman then assumes

command and restructures the world of Macragge.

 

2) The fall of the Emperor - Guilliman is off fighting and returns after the siege of terra. he then assumes command and

restructures the Imperium

 

3) The Iron Cage - Guilliman knows of the battle, waits until his brother is almost killed then comes in to "rescue" him. This

gives the glory to Guilliman while Dorn is shown to be unable to command

 

Guilliman was not a traitor

Guilliman saved the Imperium

Guilliman was a better leader than the other Primarchs

Guilliman's Legion are the greatest soldiers ever produced by mankind

Guilliman did everything out of love for the Emperor and man

 

What would the history of 40K say if Horus had won his war?

[Brother-chaplain Astador]

Come on man, come on.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'll give a example of why Guilliman did good, even if he secretly was doing it for personal gain.

 

Say I want a better world, and to do so I form an army and take over the government, killing the loyalists who wont join me. In a few years under my command, the country prospers like never before. We become a world power with a massive military, strong economy, and educated populace. There is little to no crime, drug abuse, or murder in the country and we export enough goods to help other countries in the world. To the outside I am modest and want no part of the lime light eve though I am now almost universally adored. Secretly, I love the attention and praise, it makes me feel like I have done something powerful. Have I not done good? Are these things my country has achieved any less amazing because I like succeeding?

 

I still don't believe Guilliman was power hoarding, but I hope my analogy gets my point across.

[Brother-chaplain Astador]

To me it just seems like reaching of an unbeleivable degree.

[Combat_Vet]

@marshal - Spot on actually. Guilliman did do everything the Imperium needed. He took a shattered civilization and

made it stronger than ever before. I never said that what he did was wrong. In the fluff he is by far the

greatest human being, second only to the Emperor. Maybe that's why I don't trust him. I might just be

digging too deep to justify my distrust. Thanks for the concise posts and something other than "no".

 

Better days,

[Grand Master Tyrak]

1) A council was formed of the most powerful men, they called themselves the High Lords of Terra….. their SELF-

PROCLAIMED role was to rule on behalf of the Emperor

 

Wrong. The High Lords were the renamed Council of Terra, whose Head (Malcador, until his death) was the Regent of Terra - the named successor to the Emperor.

 

2) History does not record the names of the first High Lords. However, Ultramarines relate that Guilliman was of them

 

Again, incorrect. No Primarch is a member of the High Lords/Council of Terra, that's not their job. However, they do retain a right to have their voice heard in council. Guilliman simply exercised that right.

 

3) Guilliman become Lord Commander of the Imperium, first to carry the title and the only man to ever command the

entirety of the armed forces

 

You missed out Horus. And indeed every mortal Warmaster since, like Solar Macharius, Slaydo and Macaroth.

 

3) The Iron Cage - Guilliman knows of the battle, waits until his brother is almost killed then comes in to "rescue" him. This

gives the glory to Guilliman while Dorn is shown to be unable to command

 

Whilst it is odd that Guilliman waited, none of us can discern his motives.

 

Say I want a better world, and to do so I form an army and take over the government, killing the loyalists who wont join me. In a few years under my command, the country prospers like never before. We become a world power with a massive military, strong economy, and educated populace. There is little to no crime, drug abuse, or murder in the country and we export enough goods to help other countries in the world. To the outside I am modest and want no part of the lime light eve though I am now almost universally adored. Secretly, I love the attention and praise, it makes me feel like I have done something powerful. Have I not done good? Are these things my country has achieved any less amazing because I like succeeding?

 

Yes, the 'benevolent dictator' conundrum. Should men do bad things in order that good comes about? The Inquisition would certainly say yes.

[Combat_Vet]

1) A council was formed of the most powerful men, they called themselves the High Lords of Terra….. their SELF-

PROCLAIMED role was to rule on behalf of the Emperor

 

Wrong. The High Lords were the renamed Council of Terra, whose Head (Malcador, until his death) was the Regent of Terra - the named successor to the Emperor.

 

2) History does not record the names of the first High Lords. However, Ultramarines relate that Guilliman was of them

 

Again, incorrect. No Primarch is a member of the High Lords/Council of Terra, that's not their job. However, they do retain a right to have their voice heard in council. Guilliman simply exercised that right.

 

3) Guilliman become Lord Commander of the Imperium, first to carry the title and the only man to ever command the

entirety of the armed forces

 

You missed out Horus. And indeed every mortal Warmaster since, like Solar Macharius, Slaydo and Macaroth.

 

 

I din't make any of that up. It all comes from the cited Codex.

 

1)malcador sacrificed himself just prior to the shields of Horus' barge dropping. Do we know how many of the original

members of the Council survived and how many were appointed aftrer the siege?

 

2) The Ultramarines hold that Guilliman was a member, says so in the Codex

 

3) Slaydo, Macaroth and even Macharius were generals. Very, very powerful Generals. However they were in command of

crusades and warzones, that is FAR different than ALL Imperial forces. Horus is a tough one, he really should have been

in command of ALL Imperial forces as well, but the book says Guilliman was the ONLY man to have such power.

[Captain Idaho]

I really appreciate your opinions there 200plus, as you actually made an effort with the fluff including quotes etc. ;)

 

Don't agree with you on the aim of Guilliman though, as he did not assume control over the entirity of the Imperium, rather the armed forces. The Imperium is not the same as Empires we commonly think of, as he who controls the military doesn't control the Imperium. Rather, the Mechanicus, Navigator Noblis, Astronomicon and Adeptus Ministrium are the key seats of Imperial power.

 

Though I do acknowledge the weight he may hold as Supreme Commander of Imperial forces, I think he was rather busy fighting in the Scouring. I'd imagine the other High Lords would find it easy to circumnavigate Guilliman politically, as they just need to give him the military hardware, support etc to carry on securing the Imperium (a decade of total war) and they could build up their power base with his abscence.

 

Looking at the Imperium's leadership now, we can see that this appears to have been what the High Lords did. They are in charge and positions are sacrosanct (as per Codex Imperialis), meaning they will have a seat of power within the Imperium for the forseeable future. Guilliman was the last Astartes (well, from an Astartes organisation) to ever hold a seat on the High Lords of Terra, which means he either gave back power (likely as there is no mention of power struggles and his successor to the Ultramarines never took over) or was circumnavigated politically by the other factions within Imperial hiarachy.

 

I don't agree the Ultramarines benefited from the changes or Guilliman as Supreme Commander as they lost their Legion status and long term we see that an Astartes doesn't hold sway over the High Lords. But I do understand where you are coming from, as they are considered the 1st choice for subsequent foundings and as blood means alot to Astartes, there are plenty of Ultramarines decendents out there.

 

We could almost go into another discussion here; does Calgar and the Ultramarines hold much influence over the Astartes as the genetic father's of most of the them? I would say they do, but the Ultramarines are good enough to let them have autonomy, interferring with other Chapters only when neccessary for the greather good (secret Tau... :P ).

 

Anyway, I digress a little.

 

So a slightly different slant on Guilliman using the same information... I like that, because that is how 40K should be rather than absolutes where Guilliman and the Ultramarines are reviled somewhat harshly.

[Legatus]

Even without going into RT fluff we still see major changes to the fluff. Guilliman has gone from being unaffected by the Horus Heresy, to fighting a battle at Calth, then fighting a major battle on Tallarn. We also see the Codex itself go from being regarded as the Emperor's work to the greatest work of Guilliman himself. Guilliman set down laws and rules that would ensure that no man would have "too much" power, yet he was at the time appointed commander of ALL Imperial forces (the ONLY man to ever have so much power).

Hum, what could be the reason for that? Maybe it is because the Codex Imperialis was among the first works written for the 2nd Edition in 1993, while the Codex Ultramarines was written two years later, being released in 1995? Prior to the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, the White Dwarf article a few years ago had them as not being a first founding Chapter, with a 60-80 year old Marneus Calgar as their Chapter Master, and a long record of thousands of years fighting the tyranid wars. When 2nd Edition was released, they just weren't fleshed out properly. The Codex Imperialis does not even mention the Ultramarines, the way it does Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels.

 

As far as the Emperor showing Dorn that he was wrong in a vision, I'm not sure how that is proven in the fluff. If the Emperor had said "you are wrong, Guilliman is right" he would not have taken his men into the trap set by Perturabo. If he had still fought this battle he would not have refused Guillimans aid at the very least. It is just as easy to say that the Emperor said "make your forces mobile and do not allow Guilliman to control everything". Dorn would then have reason to fight the Cage, make his new chapters crusade forces and then return with the remnants to Terra.

It was a pride thing. I thought that was quite obvious from reading the description of Dorn and the Imperial Fists. They can be headstrong about such things.

Why would Dorn have killed off his most venerable men if the Emperor had told him to watch over Guilliman? Sorry, but that makes even less sense than him doing it because of pride.

 

Guilliman was never chosen by the Emperor. That is plain and simple fact.

The Emperor was not in a condition to chose anyone.

 

The very wording of the fluff shows that Guilliman did take power in the absence of the Emperor.

The very wording of the fluff is "a council was formed". No "taking of power" is described. It sounds pretty reasonable, nothing malicious or tyrannical going on. There had to be some kind of government, no? And "forming a council" really sounds like the best solution.

 

1) the death of Konor - Guilliman is off fighting when he returns just as his adoptive father is dying. Guilliman then assumes

command and restructures the world of Macragge.

Which was not his intention, but he did an awesome job.

 

2) The fall of the Emperor - Guilliman is off fighting and returns after the siege of terra. he then assumes command and

restructures the Imperium

Which was not his intention, but he did an awesome job.

 

3) The Iron Cage - Guilliman knows of the battle, waits until his brother is almost killed then comes in to "rescue" him. This

gives the glory to Guilliman while Dorn is shown to be unable to command

That is just plain misrepresentation of the background. Dorn asked Guilliman to stay back, to sacrifice his die hard loyal veterans so they would not have to part with their Primarch because of some legislation. When the situation did not look good at all, Guilliman ignored Dorns request and evacuated the Imperial Fists. No glory is mentioned for Guilliman, and no Shame for Dorn, but you could read certain things into it, namely that for Dorn certain values like pride are more important than the lives of his men (and I am sure his men would not disapprove), while Guilliman put the lives of Dorn and his men above their pride.

 

If the background describes "it was like this...", then why do you have to come up with theories and say that it really wasn't like that at all, but the real reasons were actually quite different, even though that gets never mentioned? It's called "conspiracy theory", and sometimes they can be entertaining... sometimes...

 

 

Edit:

Whilst it is odd that Guilliman waited, none of us can discern his motives.

Those of us who have read the "iron Cage" description in the Index Astartes Iron Warriors can...

[Combat_Vet]

@ Legatus - I don't mean to be rude, but how do you know the intentions of Guilliman?

 

I have to think it is from the fluff. You simply read the fluff differently than I do. It stands to reason that the history will change as time goes on. This is mentioned time and time again. How many times was the story of the Iron Cage changed before we saw it as fluff? Who wrote the story (in a fluff sense)?

 

Did Guilliman place the needs of the Imperium over his own pride?

Did Guilliman save his brother Primarch from certain doom?

 

This is where the glory is. These two statements from the IA Article "Bitter and Twisted" show Guilliman in a wonderful light. A savior and a man willing to sacrifice for others. While I applaud you for reading this and taking it at face value. I see it as simply history written to glorify Guilliman. I didn't say you are wrong to read it as you do, just that I read it differently.

 

It actually says a council was formed and thier self proclaimed role was to rule in the name of the Emperor. The fluff further says that Guilliman "swore that his father's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together". I cannot in any way see these two statements showing that power was given to either the Council or to Guilliman.

[Legatus]

I don't mean to be rude, but how do you know the intentions of Guilliman?

Fluff tells us that Guilliman did not know that his foster father was murdered by an usurper, or that Horus betrayed the Emperor before it was too late.

 

This is where the glory is. These two statements from the IA Article "Bitter and Twisted" show Guilliman in a wonderful light. A savior and a man willing to sacrifice for others. While I applaud you for reading this and taking it at face value. I see it as simply history written to glorify Guilliman.

I am not sure it is the intention of the Index Astartes Iron Warriors to glorify Guilliman over any other Primarch. Please refer to the Index Astartes Alpha Legion for an example of an Index Astartes article with the exact opposite agenda.

 

It actually says a council was formed and thier self proclaimed role was to rule in the name of the Emperor. The fluff further says that Guilliman "swore that his father's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together". I cannot in any way see these two statements showing that power was given to either the Council or to Guilliman.

No power was "given" to the Council and Guilliman, because there was no one to "give" them power. Just like there was no one to "take" it from. Other than "the people" perhaps. The Imperium had been led by the Emperor, who now was all but dead. There had to be some form of administration. I am not sure what kind of solution you would have expected.

[Combat_Vet]

I know that the fluff shows Guilliman in a good light. That was my point. Some times that light is just too bright, and brighter light creates darker shadows.

 

Just read the Alpha legion story. I had never read the about that battle, but knew that I had missed one of the stops before Terra. It was a great read and it really does show a difference in Guilliman depending on who is writing the story. Also kind of odd that Guilliman was so adament about the teachings being right, yet he discards them when the situation calls for it. He wasn't as strict as I'd always thought.

 

I really can't answer to the last part. I agree that Guilliman was right for the job. I agree that he held the Imperium together. I simply can't see why we look "around" the fact that Guilliman restructured the very same realm he swore to protect. When Horus trys to "take it upon himself" he is abhored, yet when Guilliman "takes it upon himself" we say that he did what he had to, and that he was right in doing what he did. It

 

Before I get bashed for that last sentence. I understand that the two are not the same things. Horus stood up against the Emperor, while Guilliman led the Imperium through it's darkest hour.

[Legatus]

I know that the fluff shows Guilliman in a good light. That was my point. Some times that light is just too bright, and brighter light creates darker shadows.

Just the past few days I have read several statements (mostly in the "would Guilliman have been a better warmaster" and the "favourite primarch" thread) claiming that Guilliman and the Ultramarines are intentionally portrayed as arrogant pricks by the fluff. So I often get the impression that people are putting the pieces they read together to get the picture of Guilliman they want to get. They usually point to him calling Dorn a heretic and boasting over Alpharius when he does not want to accept Guillimans doctrines.

 

Before I get bashed for that last sentence. I understand that the two are not the same things. Horus stood up against the Emperor, while Guilliman led the Imperium through it's darkest hour.

Then I don't understand where your problem is.