Why is there no Guilliman Heresy?

[Combat_Vet]

Before I get bashed for that last sentence. I understand that the two are not the same things. Horus stood up against the Emperor, while Guilliman led the Imperium through it's darkest hour.

Then I don't understand where your problem is.

 

I mean to say that the two may have set out with different goals but the result is the same. Horus wanted to make an empire of his own and failed, Guilliman wanted to serve the Emperor and ended up creating an Empire of his own.

 

The fluff shows Guilliman as the best marine ever. If Guilliman was really as great as the fluff suggests, why did the Emperor not see it? Is the fluff simply a result of history written by those that survived, always from the victors stand point.

 

Corax - lost the majority of his legion

Manus - lost his life and the majority of his legion

Sanguinius - lost his life and many of his legion

Johnson - not sure what side he was really on, so won't consider him

Russ - lost many of his legion

Dorn - lost many of his legion and lost the siege of Terra (Terra survives but Emperor is lost)

Khan - lost many of his legion

Vulkan - lost majority of his legion

 

Guilliman - lost the least of all primarchs and gains the title Supreme Commander

 

Just looking at it like that it seems like Guilliman really got the clean end of the stick.

[The Emperor's Champion]

@ Legatus - I don't mean to be rude, but how do you know the intentions of Guilliman?

 

Perhaps you'd be interested to know that the veterans of the Ultramarines forum share a very similar set of traits and ways of thinking (We just recently discovered this. There are some newer players who don't fit the formula....yet....)

I think most of us seem to share at least part of the same head space that Guilliman is described as occupying, and if that is indeed the case, then perhaps it's not entirely wrong to assume we have some insight into what makes Guilliman tick.

That's no doubt why so many of us debate so heavily against conspiracy nuts. Guilliman and the Ultramarines are such a reflection of how we operate that questioning their motives is akin to questioning our own.

That said, most of us have gotten pretty thick skinned about it and accepted that it's not meant as personal attacks, but it still strikes awful close to home.

 

I think this probably holds true somewhat for other players and the Primarchs of their Chapters, but I don't know that it's true to the same degree.

 

Just something to consider. :lol:

[Legatus]

I mean to say that the two may have set out with different goals but the result is the same.

I beg to differ. A galaxy ruled by evil daemon gods that like to make life a hell for all humanity is not really the same as Guilliman trying to prevent the Imperium from breaking apart and initiating certain changes to make sure such an evil space god rebellion cannot happen again.

 

The fluff shows Guilliman as the best marine ever. If Guilliman was really as great as the fluff suggests, why did the Emperor not see it? Is the fluff simply a result of history written by those that survived, always from the victors stand point.

Guilliman had a better record than Horus, but Horus had a much better standing among all of the Primarchs and was the favourite Son of the Emperor, which I think outweighed a small percentage of higher efficiency. Horus was not "inept" or anything. Guilliman may have liberated more worlds, but how many more? 5% or even 10%? Would that be really important, if Horus as a Warmaster could still direct the Ultramarines to where they could be most effective?

 

Just looking at it like that it seems like Guilliman really got the clean end of the stick.

That's why so many people don't like him.

[Combat_Vet]

@Emperors - I've never been called a conspiracy nut before :D

It amazes me how the Ultra players close ranks so fast. Nothing I have said was ever intended as a personal assault. I really hope everyone understands

that. I have a tendancy to think that most people read the fluff differently from each other. I enjoy hearing the thoughts of my brother marines about the

history of our game.

 

@Legatus - Is the fluff about Guilliman having a better record a recent thing or has it always said that? I remember the comparison between Horus, Russ, and Johnson. I

I don't recall Guilliman having a better record until recently. I actually do like Guilliman by the way.

 

a Galaxy ruled by evil demon gods?

- he is the carrion lord of the imperium for whom a thousand souls die every day, for whom blood is drunk and flesh eaten. Human blood and human flesh....it is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.... only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods. ( sounds peachy :P )

[Legatus]

It amazes me how the Ultra players close ranks so fast. Nothing I have said was ever intended as a personal assault. I really hope everyone understands that.

That's probably because you are definitely not the first one to voice your interpretation of the fluff that would put an unfavourable spin on the Ultramarines and Guilliman.

 

Is the fluff about Guilliman having a better record a recent thing or has it always said that? I remember the comparison between Horus, Russ, and Johnson. I don't recall Guilliman having a better record until recently. I actually do like Guilliman by the way.

It was the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines that stated that Guilliman liberated more worlds than any other Primarch and that the Ultramarines suffered fewer casualties than the other Legions in doing so. That has been repeated in the current Codex Space Marines, but had not been stated in the Index Astartes Ultramarines, so it is understandable that some players may be surprised. The Ultramarines also conquered worlds in a very good state, whcih I am not sure without checking whether that was adden in teh Index Astartes or whether it had been described in Codex Ultramarines as well.

 

On the other hand, I struggle to find the description of the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Sons of Horus' victory count in my 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves or Codex Angels of Death, so that may have been added in teh Index Astartes during 3rd Edition.

 

- he is the carrion lord of the imperium for whom a thousand souls die every day, for whom blood is drunk and flesh eaten. Human blood and human flesh....it is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.... only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Well, are you familiar with the fate of worlds that harbour rogue psykers?

[Octavulg]

TEC:

Perhaps you'd be interested to know that the veterans of the Ultramarines forum share a very similar set of traits and ways of thinking (We just recently discovered this. There are some newer players who don't fit the formula....yet....)

 

I don't think that'd surprise too many folks. :sick:

 

I think most of us seem to share at least part of the same head space that Guilliman is described as occupying, and if that is indeed the case, then perhaps it's not entirely wrong to assume we have some insight into what makes Guilliman tick.

 

Beyond the fact that he's a fictional character written by something between a committee and a group of mutually opposed fanfic authors, set 10,000 years in the future speaking a different language, brought up on another planet, and routinely facing aliens and monsters, which would make him somewhat more difficult to relate to...

 

That's no doubt why so many of us debate so heavily against conspiracy nuts. Guilliman and the Ultramarines are such a reflection of how we operate that questioning their motives is akin to questioning our own.

 

This comes across as somewhere between unhealthy and arrogant, TEC. Depending on if you emphasize the fact that Guilliman's a star-conquering superman genetically engineered by an immortal who compiled a tactical manual used for ten millenia, or if you emphasize the fact that he's a fictional character (who did the previous).

 

I'd recommend you explain further...

 

Do you mean that you identify with the character based on the way he appears to think and view the world?

 

Or that you see yourselves as hyper-efficient tactical geniuses who are strong of mind and body, and ought to be the model for the future of humanity?

 

Both, while an acceptable answer, is a bit of a cop-out.

 

I think this probably holds true somewhat for other players and the Primarchs of their Chapters, but I don't know that it's true to the same degree.

 

Depends on the Chapter. Space Wolves, definitely. Traitor Legions less so, and Dark Angels perhaps not at all (Jonson had very little impact on what drives them now). Blood Angels...maybe.

 

I think you would be wrong to say that chapters are a reflection of people. They are, quite possibly, reflections of how people see things or of how they want to be. But there're ugly Blood Angels who are no good in a fight, Dark Angels who can't keep a secret, Space Wolves who can't hold their liquor, and Ultramarines who'd drop dead half a day into the training on Macragge.

 

So it goes. We are not eight foot tall supermen. We are not in the 41st millenium. It is a game. When we forget that, it stops being fun. Getting upset about people's opinions on characters in that game likely qualifies.

 

* * *

 

EDIT:

 

Oh, Legatus - it's in the IA, since I never read the second edition codex.

 

Also, I'm thinking the arguments for and against Guilliman being the paragon of virtue he is claimed to be would make a good subject for an article or debate in the Librarium.

[Marshal Rohr]

In this post I will use cited examples to help explain my belief about Guilliman and Dorn, and the disagreement over the splitting of the Legions.

 

First:

"The task was undertaken almost single-handedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarines Legion of Space Marines, Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the Fleet, and the Space Marines."

 

Page 12, Paragraph 3, Index Astartes: The Codex Astartes, Index Astartes Vol. I

 

This quote shows that for good or ill, the reorganization of the Imperium was done well. The articles goes on further to explain, that besides tactics and organization, the Codex also lays downt he guidlines for recruiting and geneseed tithes, to examine for the mutations and deviations that allowed for the Traitor Legions to be corrupted.

 

The Second Founding was 7 years after the death of Horus. This means that during this time the Ultramarines still operated as a Legion. As further supported by this:

 

"The Imperial Fists supported the Ultramarines in a decade-long campaign to liberate the subjugated worlds"

Index Astartes: The Iron Warriors, Index Astartes Vol. I

 

"While the Ultramarines maintained order in the Imperium, the Imperial Fists hunted down the traitors, leveling fortress, after fortress."

 

These quotes mean that before, during, and after the presentation of the Codex, the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists were still engaged in campaigns alongside each other. This leads me to believe that some Legions split before others, using this as evidence:

 

"But even as the newly formed Chapters and the old Legions were preparing for battle."

 

Index Astartes: The Black Templars, Index Astartes Vol. II

 

I think these quotes above show that besides the one known argument, the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines were each others closest allies during the scouring, Guilliman could depend on Dorn to back him up, which meant that whenever Dorn didn't want to split his Legion, it would also explain why the fight was so unusual and the accusations so baseless.

 

During all of this the Imperial Fist were persecuted while on the decade long campaign against the Iron Warriors. The timeline had mentioned the presentation of the Codex as 7 years following Horus' death, meaning that even though Dorn would not relent they continued to fight alongside one another. Which brings us to the Iron Cage. Dorn was contemplating backing down before the Iron Cage, as evidenced by these quotes:

 

"Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times"

 

"Dorn knew that many of his battle brothers were not eager to found new chapters as the Ultramarines were eager to do."

 

Index Astartes: The Imperial Fists, Index Astartes Vol. II

 

So he was thinking about it or he would not know what his brothers thought about forming new Chapters. So:

 

"-the Emperor was gone and now it seemed that their very brotherhood was to be sundered. At this time of uncertainty, the Iron Warriors issued a clear challenge to the Imperial Fists by building a formidable fortress and daring them to attack."

 

"Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge as a Chapter."

 

Index Astartes: The Imperial Fists, Index Astartes Vol. II

 

These quotes lead me to believe Dorn made up his mind to break up into Chapters, but not before he had one final chance at Perturabo. Notice it says emerge at the end of the second quote, so he intended for his men to come back, but they would be cleansed through sacrifice. Guilliman begged Dorn to allow him to come in support of him, but Dorn refused, making it a matter of honor. To shed some meagre evidence on some kind of positive relationship between Dorn and Guilliman, and supporting that Guilliman isn't a power hungry monster:

 

"Fortunately for Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman put the Imperium before pride and brought the Ultramarines to the rescue"

 

Notice, he put the Imperium before pride, meaning it stung his pride Dorn refused his help, after the bond forged by 10 years of campaigning together, even through their disagreement, he was still not willing to lose a brother whom I would assume he cared for. And lets not forget brothers, the Imperial Fists did need rescuing, they were not winning, they were being systematically slaughtered, but they were reaping their fair share of vengeance on the Iron Warriors. The Iron Cage would mark an end to the decade long campaign, because of the toll it took on the Primarch and the Legion itself.

 

"Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times"

Index Astartes: The Imperial Fists, Index Astartes Vol. I

 

and

 

"Rogal Dorn was a broken man. It was nineteen years before he and the Imperial Fists could once again go to war." Index Astartes: The Iron Warriors, Index Astartes Vol. I

 

Dorn retreated to Terra to with what remained of his die-hard followers I believe when the Iron Cage article mentions the 'chapter' it specifically means Dorn's most devoted warriors, meaning that if 400 dead were left on the field unharvested, then in the 600 remaining, their might be recovered dead and grievously wounded, hence the lengthy recovery time. Of the other members of the Legion who were likely similarly ravaged, those still thirsty for vengeance left with Sigismund on an Eternal Crusade and those too new to have participated in the Siege or completely devoted to the Chapter left with Polux. When the Imperial Fists returned, the were second only to the Ultramarines in adherence.

 

I hope this helps explain my point well. The Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are the bedrock of the Imperium and I hate to see players who hold identical values be so opposed simply because of one line in an IA about a second founding, whenever their history is littered with so much mutual gain and compromise for the good of all. I know it doesn't prove that Guilliman wasn't attempting to sieze power, but we will have to wait for a book devoted to him during the Horus Heresy before we get into that (fingers crossed for Abnett).

 

-Matt

[The Emperor's Champion]

LOL

 

most of us seem to share at least part of the same head space

^And here I thought I was fairly clear on it just being a mindset thing. No I don't think we're galaxy conquering super humans or tactical geniuses or anything.

[Combat_Vet]

@Crusader - great post and I fully understand your point of view. As I said we simply read the fluff differently. Where you put the emphasis on Guilliman put the Imperium before pride I put the emphasis on fortunately for Dorn and Ultramarines to the rescue

 

I'm sure Dorn was ready to split the Legion before the Iron Cage. I don't even think the other chapters were on planet during the fighting.

 

Two reasons for this:

 

IA I Article "Bitter and Twisted"

The Imperiial Fists proceeded on a four company front.....fractured the Imperial Fists, first into companies then into squads...... by day six each marine fought vittually alone

 

IA II Article "Emperor's Fist"

for the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in thier stead

 

The reasons I see this as significant is that he was not planning on sacrificing his best men. He was after two things, revenge and absolution. The fall of his father was a personal affront to him (as defender of Terra) and it was Perturabo that vowed to take down the Emperor's palace. I see Dorn refusing guillimans help because Guilliman was not a part of the siege of Terra. It goes back to the survivor bond of veterans. Guilliman was not attacked, so he did not deserve revenge. Also a four company front with 4000+ troops is not tactically sound. Dorn was angry and reckless, he was not stupid. However, a four company front with 1200+ men is about what you would expect. Four companies three deep with the last rank acting as rear guard and mobile reserve.

 

It would also explain why the Imperial Fists were unable to fight for 20 years but thier successors were able to fight following the Cage. If the Templars and the Crimson Fists were not in the battle they would not have suffered the losses that the IF did.

 

When I read the fluff, I see it all being about Guilliman. The comments make him better, make him the savior, and makes all others seem weak and of lesser stature. Throughout history, this is a sign of someone who wrote the history for a purpose. Maybe it was done to ensure his dictates would be followed or maybe it was done to provide the masses with a new hero to follow. Regardless, we see things like this:

 

The task was undertaken almost single-handedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarines

The Imperial Fists supported the Ultramarines

the Ultramarines maintained order in the Imperium

 

Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times

Fortunately for Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman put the Imperium before pride and brought the Ultramarines to the rescue

Rogal Dorn was a broken man

 

All of these quotes show the greatness of Guilliman while at the same time showing the weakness of Dorn. It could be the truth or it could be a rewritten history to establish Guilliman's right to decide the fate of man. Dorn was with the Emperor when he died, he was chosen to lead the defense of terra, trusted beyond all others. Then in a ten year span we see him as a broken and shaken man in need of his brother to rescue him. While we see Guilliman go from a commander in the galactic south (with an impressive war record) to the savior of mankind who was always right and always knew what to do. It just doesn't sit well with me that such a severe reversal took hold unless it was written by the supports of Guilliman.

[Legatus]

When you think about it a moment longer, the background was not written by imperial scribes at all, but by GW authors to represent the Primarchs and the Legions in a certain way. And I find it hard to believe that the GW authors intentionally wrote about Guilliman and the Ultramarines in a favourable way to hint at a secret plot that Guilliman was rewriting imperial history in their favour.

[Combat_Vet]

When you think about it a moment longer, the background was not written by imperial scribes at all, but by GW authors to represent the Primarchs and the Legions in a certain way. And I find it hard to believe that the GW authors intentionally wrote about Guilliman and the Ultramarines in a favourable way to hint at a secret plot that Guilliman was rewriting imperial history in their favour.

 

That's no fair. You just made the entire dicussion moot. If there are only GW writers, there is no Imperium, no Emperor, no Primarchs, no Heresy and it's all just a figment of our collective imaginations. :D

 

++I understand that none of this is real. However, much of the politics and history is taken from RL events.++

[Primarch Corax]

@ Legatus - I don't mean to be rude, but how do you know the intentions of Guilliman?

 

Perhaps you'd be interested to know that the veterans of the Ultramarines forum share a very similar set of traits and ways of thinking (We just recently discovered this. There are some newer players who don't fit the formula....yet....)

I think most of us seem to share at least part of the same head space that Guilliman is described as occupying, and if that is indeed the case, then perhaps it's not entirely wrong to assume we have some insight into what makes Guilliman tick.

That's no doubt why so many of us debate so heavily against conspiracy nuts. Guilliman and the Ultramarines are such a reflection of how we operate that questioning their motives is akin to questioning our own.

That said, most of us have gotten pretty thick skinned about it and accepted that it's not meant as personal attacks, but it still strikes awful close to home.

 

I think this probably holds true somewhat for other players and the Primarchs of their Chapters, but I don't know that it's true to the same degree.

 

Just something to consider. :D

 

You make an excellent point EC. Really, we all think like our chosen Primarchs. That legions personality and nature is really what draws us to that chapter. For example, I prefer using ideas people didn't come up with, or thinking outside the box. Planning ahead is also my thing. It was only natural that I collect Raven Guard. Thanks for the excellent post!

[Marshal Rohr]

I think the same article series that talks about all of the secrets of the Primarchs wouldn't cover up meglomania in one character, you know?

 

Did everyone skip the part about the two being on campaign together before, during, and after the presentation of the Codex?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Perhaps you'd be interested to know that the veterans of the Ultramarines forum share a very similar set of traits and ways of thinking (We just recently discovered this. There are some newer players who don't fit the formula....yet....)

 

You should see the Inquisition forums. Uhh, Radicals . . . :rolleyes:

 

It amazes me how the Ultra players close ranks so fast. Nothing I have said was ever intended as a personal assault. I really hope everyone understands

that.

 

Every faction of supporters in 40k closes ranks fast, mostly because they either don't get the support they need from GW or they get too much fanboy GW support, turning them into an object of ridicule.

You'll just have to get used to it. ;)

 

Dorn was with the Emperor when he died, he was chosen to lead the defense of terra, trusted beyond all others. Then in a ten year span we see him as a broken and shaken man in need of his brother to rescue him.

 

Whilst the 'rescue' part is never going to sit well with IF fans, of which I am one, there can be no doubt that Dorn was despairing. Essentially what has happened is he has fought his hardest for what he believes, only to see it reduced to ash. Yet he's still won. That's what gets him - he's won, but he's lost at the same time. And now he's being told he has to give up the last thing he has remaining that he fought for - his honour, embodied in his Legion. Wouldn't you despair? I would.

He can't win. Whatever happens he is going to lose his Legion, or else lose the Imperium. But he still doesn't want to tell his men, who fought and bled with him on the walls of the Emperor's Palace, that they have no place with him - in his eyes he would be just another betrayer among so many. So he leads them down to die in the only manner that they (and he) can accept - death in the service of the Emperor. No need for him to renege on his honour, no need to lose the Imperium. And when he returns from the Iron Cage, he can now make that choice. He has done justice to his veterans, he can now move on and make a fresh start in the new Imperium.

[Marshal Rohr]

Dorn did need rescuing, it was out of character, but Perturabo had him by the balls and unable to do anything but sell their lives dearly. Which they did so very well. Both articles will agree on one thing, they each gave as good as they got.

[Rain]

The way I see it is that Dorn was in deep mourning and anger over the death of the Emperor and probably wanted to die himself--this is not really a stretch as he eventually did kill himself on the Sword of Sacrilege. In any case he thought that if he died while in the process destroying a Chaos Legion that was as good a way as any to go so he takes his most elite warriors and leads them on what he expected to be a suicide mission.

 

I mean I really doubt Dorn was so blinded by his rage that he didn't know that attacking a well dug in enemy was not tactically sound, he was just too blinded to care, and also he knew that if he could draw Perturabo out into single combat he could probably kill him as Perturabo was not the most martial primarch. So in essence he would give his life to kill Perturabo and fragment the Iron Warriors, redeeming his honor for being unable to protect the Emperor from Chaos. For his part Perturabo also understood that he was no match for Dorn in single combat and furthermore that engaging the Imperial Fists head on would likely greatly deplete his forces to the point of destroying his legion as a unified force.

 

Therefore, he put honor aside and engaged the Imperial Fists in a guerrilla campaign, striking from underground tunnels and other such traps that prevented the Imperial Fists from bringing their force to bear and preserving Perturabo's troops (remember that the Iron Warriors were also depleted by this point from fighting at Terra as well as dozens of other zones throughout the scouring). Anyway although this tactic was favoring the defenders, it was by its very nature slow and Perturabo knew that if he were to mass his troops to "finish" the Imperial Fists the cost would be too high, a cost he did not want to pay. In any case, all of this time allowed the Ultramarines time to intercede at which point Perturabo allowed the surviving Fists to leave, again because if he was reluctant to face 1 legion head on, facing 2 was completely out of the question.

 

The point of course is that I do not doubt that Dorn was prepared to die at the Cage, and his legion was prepared to die with him, and maybe they would have had it not been for the Ultramarines, though it would have taken a very long time as Perturabo was being very careful. Which also begs the question, if Gulliman really wanted all of this power, why not just let the naysayer lay down in the grave he dug for himself? Why help Dorn at all when by leaving him there you have a good chance of him dying and completely removing that particular thorn from your side? Why indeed unless Gulliman genuinely wanted to help his brother despite Dorn's objections to his codex.

[Hrvat]

Well I don't say that I support that line of thought but maybe he just didn't want to make Dorn a martyr of the Old Imperium around which others could rally later on. Better to have him bend his knee, which he already did before the Iron Cage.

[Marshal Rohr]

Therefore, he put honor aside and engaged the Imperial Fists in a guerrilla campaign, striking from underground tunnels and other such traps that prevented the Imperial Fists from bringing their force to bear and preserving Perturabo's troops (remember that the Iron Warriors were also depleted by this point from fighting at Terra as well as dozens of other zones throughout the scouring). Anyway although this tactic was favoring the defenders, it was by its very nature slow and Perturabo knew that if he were to mass his troops to "finish" the Imperial Fists the cost would be too high, a cost he did not want to pay. In any case, all of this time allowed the Ultramarines time to intercede at which point Perturabo allowed the surviving Fists to leave, again because if he was reluctant to face 1 legion head on, facing 2 was completely out of the question.

 

The point of course is that I do not doubt that Dorn was prepared to die at the Cage, and his legion was prepared to die with him, and maybe they would have had it not been for the Ultramarines, though it would have taken a very long time as Perturabo was being very careful. Which also begs the question, if Gulliman really wanted all of this power, why not just let the naysayer lay down in the grave he dug for himself? Why help Dorn at all when by leaving him there you have a good chance of him dying and completely removing that particular thorn from your side? Why indeed unless Gulliman genuinely wanted to help his brother despite Dorn's objections to his codex.

 

The timeline I tried to show earlier was that Guilliman had already split, Dorn hadn't so he would be facing one Legion and one Chapter.

 

Also, if the Imperial Fists went in with enough to make 3 successors and leave 600 Marines recovered, dead or alive, they wern't that bad for numbers.

 

The Heresy and Scouring took the Ultra's from 250,000 to enough to make 24 Chapters. They took a licking and kept on ticking.

[Hrvat]

The Heresy and Scouring took the Ultra's from 250,000 to enough to make 24 Chapters. They took a licking and kept on ticking.

 

That 250K figure has been abandoned by the GW. So we are once more at some 30-35K for Ultramarines.

 

 

Cheers

[Marshal Rohr]

My artbook disagrees.

[Hrvat]

My artbook disagrees.

 

I agree that your artbook disagrees.

 

The artbooks and the 4th ed. C:CSM are only places where legions are mentioned at such sizes.

 

 

The background before it, manly IA and a few blurbs in various codex(plural), and after it has returned to the 10K figure more or less.

 

The numbers in the artbooks were the result of of GW reacting to the people which claimed that their previous results were unrealistic. When GW changed the numbers an even greater number of people claimed they were chainging the background for no good reason so they returned to the previous numbers.

 

 

Rather than pasting the entire discussion here http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...=149481&hl= I hope you find it interesting.

 

 

Cheers

 

Hrvat

[The Emperor's Champion]

The 5th Edition Chaos Codex agrees too. Those numbers have NOT been abandoned by GW.

[Hrvat]

The 5th Edition Chaos Codex agrees too. Those numbers have NOT been abandoned by GW.

 

Which codex is that I guess that you mean the current CSM codex and that is the 4th ed. one.

 

 

Cheers

[Marshal Rohr]

How can anyone not think 250,000 is alot cooler than 30,000? with 250,000 Space Marines you can conceivably hold together the Imperium single handedly, like Guilliman did. With 30,000 you'd be pressed to keep the Eastern Rim stable. Look at modern Chapter numbers its around 300 that are stationed out there alone.

[The Emperor's Champion]

The 5th Edition Chaos Codex agrees too. Those numbers have NOT been abandoned by GW.

 

Which codex is that I guess that you mean the current CSM codex and that is the 4th ed. one.

 

 

Cheers

Guess it depends how you're numbering.

 

If you're numbering by how many sets of Chaos Marine rules there are it's the 5th.

RT

2nd:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/d/dc/Codex_Chaos_FCover.jpg/160px-Codex_Chaos_FCover.jpg

3rd:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/9/9a/Codex_Chaos_Space_Marines_-_3rd_Ed_Cover.jpg/180px-Codex_Chaos_Space_Marines_-_3rd_Ed_Cover.jpg

4th:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/7/72/Codex_Chaos_Space_Marines_FCover.jpg/180px-Codex_Chaos_Space_Marines_FCover.jpg

5th:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/1/10/CSM4th.jpg/150px-CSM4th.jpg