Why is there no Guilliman Heresy?

[The Emperor's Champion]

How can anyone not think 250,000 is alot cooler than 30,000? with 250,000 Space Marines you can conceivably hold together the Imperium single handedly, like Guilliman did. With 30,000 you'd be pressed to keep the Eastern Rim stable. Look at modern Chapter numbers its around 300 that are stationed out there alone.

Plus the smaller numbers are totally illogical.

[Legatus]

How can anyone not think 250,000 is alot cooler than 30,000?

Because that would mean most legions had between 95-97% casualties and had all pretty much been wiped out during the heresy, safe a small amount of remains, and even the Ultramarines were at 10% after the scouring, which does not really seem what the background suggests.

[The Emperor's Champion]

In a galaxy where wars regularly last hundreds of years the Horus Heresy is described as the bloodiest war ever fought. 97% casualties sounds VERY appropriate.

[Legatus]

I think 70% sounds pretty dire already, without being pretty much officially wiped out.

[Octavulg]

The Heresy also has the advantage of being galaxy-wide. If you added up all the little wars going on, I suspect they might start to be a bit more competitive vis-a-vis casualty numbers.

[Hrvat]

I don't know about you guys but marines were never a big deal for me. As far as I see them, they are those celebrities you always hear about but never actually see and when you do see them you wish they weren't there (in a way) 'cos something awful is happening. Sure they are cool and all but like today's special forces they are drop in a sea.

[Marshal Rohr]

But whenever the drop into the sea its in drop pods and they jump out breaking the molecular bonds left and right.

 

Yes, massive casualties does describe the scale of the Heresy quite well. It was the craziest, hardest, and bloodiest war ever. Only the 13th Black Crusade approached it in mobilization.

 

The Battle of Tallarn for instance, ungodly numbers of tanks squaring off against one another like a Civil War battle.

[Hrvat]

The Battle of Tallarn for instance, ungodly numbers of tanks squaring off against one another like a Civil War battle.

 

50 000 of them no less. I think NATO vs USSR could have pulled it :tu:

[Marshal Rohr]

Could you imagine that many tanks rank on rank? Like the Charge of the Rohirrim, but with Predators and Leman Russ.

[Hrvat]

That would be one cool(frightening) sight. Also I have a rough idea how that would look. When I was very little and USSR was still around the newspapers made an article "What if USSR invades" and one of the conclusions was that they had enough tanks to cover our enitre northern border if the put tanks in a single row and from my few flights along the border I sure remember it was a long look :confused:

[Captain Mike]

Guilliman, in my view, didn't do the Imperium any favours in the long run, but at the time what he did was understandable. The breaking down of the legions weakened them, but also gave them better coverage of the galaxy, prevented one legion otherthrowing the Imperium and gave us greater scope for modelling! In the same way, the Codex Astartes got rid of diversity but created a more uniform force with better understanding of tactics.

 

And making the Imperium stagnant? Yes. But my mind follows this path. Guilliman had two option, and both come out in a similar outcome.

 

1) Go angry and avenge the death of his brothers. Attack left right and centre killing all in his wake, whilst the Imperium begs for leadership behind him. He doesn't give it, and the Imperium collapses. Humanity is as seperated as it was during the age of strife.

 

2) Do what he did. 10,000+ years later the Imperium is stagnant and.... begging for proper leadership. It is not given, the Imperium collapses. Humanity is as seperated as it was during the age of strife.

 

Alternatively, leadership will be given and the Imperium is saved for another 10,000 years. Then that leadership is lost, and they beg for leadership. It is not given, the Imperium collapses. Humanity is as seperated as it was during the age of strife.

 

Its a yes/no situation. Leadership given? Prolongs life. Not given, breaks down (only to be reforged by another visionary later).

 

Pessimism or optimism? Thats what it boils down too.

[Jamafore]

I understand that this topic may upset some UM players. For that I apologize. However, to offer your side and opinion and then assume it’s right and the topic closed is kind of rude.

 

Guilliman can be looked at as Caesar Augustus. He grasped the reins of a torn empire and built it back again. Like Augustus, Guilliman would have had to coerce many to achieve his goals. Guilliman was willing to attack his remaining brothers in order to enforce his will, up until this time in the story only one other group was known to show this capability. Augustus rebuilt the senate, restructured the roman military and began a reign of conquest that would expand the known borders of Roman rule. All of these are things that Guilliman did in 40K (interesting isn’t it). And he did all these things through force and the threat of force.

 

No one can argue that it was right for Augustus to do what he did, and the same can be said for Guilliman in 40K. He did what was needed at the time and he did it by whatever means were required.

 

Didn’t Horus lead the rebellion out of a sense of duty? He saw the Emperor being worshipped as a god and led a war against such a thing. It is strange to say that Guilliman had to do what he did.

 

I will admit that the gene-seed of many chapters has degraded over time. But, to say that the UM were the most pure all the way back to the 3rd founding? It was with this initial founding that we see Guilliman’s influence expanding. Every founding after would only serve to create a stronger numerical advantage to the UM.

 

I rather like the story of Dorn. A brilliant tactician, strong leader, and chosen representative of the Emperor. He was so consumed by rage following the heresy that he lost command. Knowing that he would have to submit or face civil war, he made a choice. He would split his forces and protect them at the same time. His fleet was given to the BT and they scatter to find revenge (and not remain in a static position). The Crimson Fists also remain mobile at this point. Dorn returns to Terra with his remaining men and decides to remain at the side of the Emperor (thus protecting him from any “accidents”). He also begins a program of influence building, offering support to all the branches of the empire. He has contacts all the way up to the High Council allowing him to gather information. Ensuring that he is seen embracing the Codex while actually just ensuring the survival of the Imperium under the guidance of the Emperor.

 

 

 

Ummmm........ Augustus became empeor of Rome after driving out the other 2 of the triumvirate, Mark Antony and Marcus Aemilius. It was hardly a "save Rome from herself" situation. It was more that he was a politcal genius and capitalized on openings the other 2 left in themselves. I believe Guilliman is roughly the same but without the "I want to be emperor," thing.

 

BTW, Augustus didn't restructure the military, an emperor named Marius in (I think) the 1st century, turning it into the army we know of today, before then the soldier had to supply his own equipment, leading to a lot of inconsistencies in the army, but afterword all equipment was supplied by the state, leading to uniformity. That and new training was what allowed the empire to expand and for the legions to become, arguably, the best army in the ancient world.

[Combat_Vet]

I've read a good deal about the Roman Empire. I try not to give wrong information, so if I have I am very sorry. Most of what I posted here came from answers.com (I'm lazy). It is pretty well researched and has an extensive bibliography. Some of my favorite quotes from the article:

 

Octavian's power was based on his control of the army, his financial resources, and his enormous popularity. The system of government he established, however, was designed to veil these facts by making important concessions to republican sentiment. Octavian was extremely farsighted in his political arrangements, but he continually emphasized that his rule was a return to the mos maiorum

 

Augustus concerned himself with every detail and aspect of the empire. He attended to everything with dignity, firmness, and generosity, hoping, as he said himself, that he would be "called the author of the best possible government." He stabilized the boundaries of the empire, provided for the defense of the frontiers, reorganized and reduced the size of the army

 

after he defeated Antony and Cleopatra at Actium in 31 he controlled the whole empire. In 27 Octavian laid down his de facto dictatorship and handed back the government of the state to the senate, thereby formally restoring the republic. However, he retained immense power

 

I cannot help but see this is where the idea of Guilliman came from. Not exactly of course, but the foundation for sure.

 

Better days,

[Jamafore]

I've read a good deal about the Roman Empire. I try not to give wrong information, so if I have I am very sorry. Most of what I posted here came from answers.com (I'm lazy). It is pretty well researched and has an extensive bibliography. Some of my favorite quotes from the article:

 

Octavian's power was based on his control of the army, his financial resources, and his enormous popularity. The system of government he established, however, was designed to veil these facts by making important concessions to republican sentiment. Octavian was extremely farsighted in his political arrangements, but he continually emphasized that his rule was a return to the mos maiorum

 

Augustus concerned himself with every detail and aspect of the empire. He attended to everything with dignity, firmness, and generosity, hoping, as he said himself, that he would be "called the author of the best possible government." He stabilized the boundaries of the empire, provided for the defense of the frontiers, reorganized and reduced the size of the army

 

after he defeated Antony and Cleopatra at Actium in 31 he controlled the whole empire. In 27 Octavian laid down his de facto dictatorship and handed back the government of the state to the senate, thereby formally restoring the republic. However, he retained immense power

 

I cannot help but see this is where the idea of Guilliman came from. Not exactly of course, but the foundation for sure.

 

Better days,

 

 

 

 

Hmmmm..... I wil have to check my history books, and get back with you on that. You're probably right since it's been years since I looked at that stuff.

 

::shrugs:: Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, won't be the last.

 

On-topic: I don't think there was a "Guilliman Heresy" because aside from Dorn, Russ, and Vulkan, no-one really complained about the Codex. I haven't seen anything on how the Imperial Army and Navy command staff took it, though.

[Hrvat]

On-topic: I don't think there was a "Guilliman Heresy" because aside from Dorn, Russ, and Vulkan, no-one really complained about the Codex. I haven't seen anything on how the Imperial Army and Navy command staff took it, though.

 

Well they were the only live ones that dared. I really doubt any of the surviving high ranking imperial official dared to challenge a primarch with the largest marine continget at his back.

[SeanDrake]

Hi I have had great fun reading this and just had a thought about the primachs who disagreed with Gulliman I found this quote in an old WD.

 

It is little known how Vulkan of the Salamanders disappeared. As far as it is known, he vanished into thin air as mysteriously as Leman Russ

 

call me paranoid but 3 people oppose your rise to power 1 becomes a fan boy and sets up home in the palace on terra the one place he cannot have an "accident" the other 2 vanish in mysterious circumstances damn thats convenient. ;)

 

But seriously I do think that the BT's were given a mandate by Dorn to act as a check and balance not just against the UM's but against the whole system hence them being the ones to respond against Goge Vandire. Which is also the reason they keep nearly a full old style legion of marines which if need would allow them to respond against allmost anything if they brought there full numbers to one place.

[Legatus]

But seriously I do think that the BT's were given a mandate by Dorn to act as a check and balance not just against the UM's but against the whole system

Can I play too? Well, I think the Black Templars are secretly planning to overthrow the Imperium because they could not cope with being separated with their beloved Primarch, and now they are plotting their revenge. Let's call it "The Sigismund Heresy"...

[Marshal Rohr]

Legatus is on to us Brothers. Quick! Grab the Zip-Ties and gag, and somebody bring me my tazer!

 

 

The Black Templar are supposed to be the shadow of the former legions. The only Chapter that still hold true to the ideals of the original Astartes, however over time there practices have mutated and grimdark-ed into recklessness.

[x_beowolf_x1]

Damn, Im so pissed I missed out on the majority of this crazy topic. I havn't seen something this good in a while. I havn't read the whole thread so please forgive me if I bring something up that was already covered.

 

First of all.

 

High Lords were established right around the Heresy. They were personally handpicked by the Emperor himself, with Malcador to rule over them. Unfortunatly with the noble Sigilite having sacrificed himself, the high-lords were free to do whatever they wanted. This is the reason why people believe that if they Emperor was ever reborn, his first move would be to kill all the high-lord, and finally make the Imperium in his image.

 

Now, for Guilliman.

 

I can see what everyone is saying, about him doing all these reforms to gain power in a very subtle way, but if you think about it, it doesn't make to much sense of WHY he would have done them in the first place. If his goal was to truly rule over the imperium, albeit subtly, why would he have ever even mentioned the idea of splitting the legions? He could have easily "taken control" even without breaking the legions up in the first place. You could bring up the fact that he didn't want too much power in the hands of one person, and that breaking up the legion would have been benificial to protecting the imperium, but Guilliman could have EASILY protected the imperium with his legion still intact. The number of space marines in all is what matters, not how they are divided up. Mobility wouldn't be an issue, I mean, the legions were practically broken up into chapters anyway during the Horus Heresy. Rarely was there a full legion in one place.

[Brother Evar]

I was thinking about how the majority of chapters are from UM geneseed and how much influence the UM would have over them. A comparison would be the DA and unforgiven. The DA's and friends are more likely to re-form and did in the 13th Black Crussade against abby and the fallen. But the UM's and their sucessors? Not to the same extent. Just because Guilliman is their daddy dose not mean they follow the codex to a tee. They are SM and play hard and fast with the rules and the codex. The Mortificators (?) are a good example of this for their deviance and Uriel and others found it abhorrent and from that book the UM and Mortificators have cut ties. They wouldn't be the only ones with deviations from the UM.

 

Its just the new 5th ed dex shows all Ultra sucessors as vassals/kiss a**'s, which is probably not the case not the case. Just thought about the Son's of Orar- if they liked their fore- fathers so much why did they not get involved when the pixies attacked the tomb of Orar, isn't he their daddy as much as Guilliman?! :D

 

I am sure if the UM's and friends tried to pull anything I am sure the "black sheep" of the family like the Mortificators would be right there along with the Fists, DA and Wolves to stop them. Rest easy people the UM's are not an evil conglomerate company like the =I= or Umbrella Corporation.

 

OT- If people are annoyed with Ultra's for reasons mentioned in post and others they should do DIY UM divergant. It aways makes the UM uneasy at the dinner party when an inquisitor mentions to Calgar giving a warning to the Raging Panthers* for using Atomic charges on a Hive city because they were too lazy to eliminate the Tauist fan club within. :lol: - (jokes)

 

* Made up UM random non official sucessor.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Well, I think the Black Templars are secretly planning to overthrow the Imperium because they could not cope with being separated with their beloved Primarch, and now they are plotting their revenge. Let's call it "The Sigismund Heresy"...

 

Imperial Galactic News: "Sections of Holy Terra burned today by 2 Black Templar Sword Brethren kill-teams. 120000 are thought to be dead. Hive structure collapses after Land Raider Crusader is driven through the lower floors to quickly assault the suspected Heretic holdout. Arbites are still trying to sift through the remains to identify the lone heretic implicated by the Astartes kill-teams."

 

Legatus is on to us Brothers. Quick! Grab the Zip-Ties and gag, and somebody bring me my tazer!

 

"In other news, Black Templars are being censured for use of Thunder Hammers in "enhanced" interrogation sessions. Inquisition and Dark Angels organizations decline to comment."

 

And I think people are wrong about Guilliman and his motives. Sure, the power was there to be seized! He went the way of George Washington and stepped away from the high seat of power when it was time for him to do other things.

[Scott-S6]

He certainly seems to be doing the right thing for the Imperium.

 

Of course, while he was at it, he set things up to be very favourable for his progeny.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

"

In other news, Black Templars are being censured for use of Thunder Hammers in "enhanced" interrogation sessions. Inquisition and Dark Angels organizations decline to comment."

 

"The Inquisitor in charge of seizing the weapons said that the Black Templars were being stopped from using them because, and I quote, "That's our job.""

[Prathios]

"

In other news, Black Templars are being censured for use of Thunder Hammers in "enhanced" interrogation sessions. Inquisition and Dark Angels organizations decline to comment."

 

"The Inquisitor in charge of seizing the weapons said that the Black Templars were being stopped from using them because, and I quote, "That's our job.""

 

No kidding, in the most recent Ultramarine novel we get to see some Grey Knight interrogation techniques. All I can say is, boiling oil is nasty business. I still cringe thinking about that scene.