[Daemon review] Heavy Support

[Captain Malachi]

Ok guys, before we start discussing the units we're going to discuss how we want to do this section. Personally, I'd rather we keep in the style we have and just review each unit individually, the prince would have to be split in to five different sections (each God and undivided), while the soulgrinder could be done fairly quick. After that I would add a bit on comparing the two.

 

However, it has been suggested that we make the whole thing a comparison between the two units. So I'd like it if we could decide here and now how we're going to do it before I try and write it up :rolleyes: So yeah, what do you all think?

[Infidel]

Hey Captn

 

I think it's fair to divide the entire thing up into 3 categories, CC, Dakka and support. We should talk about the typical builds (Nurgle + Wings + Hide + NT for CC monster, Tzeentch + Gaze + Bolt for Dakka, Slannesh + Pavane + Might for support etc) and each category compare it to the grinder and other possible builds and evaluate them in terms of speed, survivability, damage output and point economy.

[djkest]

I'd say evaluate the 5 princes in the context of 40k as a whole, how does it compare to other units from other armies and points cost. For example: The nurgle DP is a little pricey but fights like a greater demon.... something like that. Soul grinder should have it's own section- although it's not too complicated. And lastly have a section just on comparing the two. That's my idea.

[Rahveel]

the daemon prince can just fill so many roles, its dificult to write a reveiw on him. I think the best aproach would be to split him up into the different gods, and his role in an all gods army vrs a mono god army. (so, 5 catagorys, with 2 sections each)

 

soul grinders are almost as bad, they just dont have as many options on builds.

[minigun762]

Ok guys, before we start discussing the units we're going to discuss how we want to do this section. Personally, I'd rather we keep in the style we have and just review each unit individually, the prince would have to be split in to five different sections (each God and undivided), while the soulgrinder could be done fairly quick. After that I would add a bit on comparing the two.

 

However, it has been suggested that we make the whole thing a comparison between the two units. So I'd like it if we could decide here and now how we're going to do it before I try and write it up So yeah, what do you all think?

 

We can maintain the same style, talking about each unit separately. Might have less confusion that way.

 

I think we almost have to go with the example build idea as there are too many variables out there to consider for the Daemon Prince.

 

EDIT: I don't know if we have to do it by Gods per se. I think going with roles would be better because there are some build thats are equivalent to each other. Example would be Daemon Prince, Might and Iron Hide vs Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch and Might. Same point cost roughly and same basic role on the battlefield. Choice is whether you want a 3+/5++ or 4++ save.

The "roles" that I'd go with are

1) Expensive/Heavy Assault = Winged Nurgle DP of Death

2) Cheap/Light Assault = Walking Might DP

3) Fire Support = Tzeentch Gaze/Bolt DP

4) Support/Other = Pavane Slaanesh DP

[Rahveel]

indeed, something like this would be simpler, but perhaps also include a breif mention on the uses of all the upgrades available, and what kind of build they support best.

 

In general though, Daemon princes are a very usefull tool in the daemons list. they hit hard in CC, can be upgraded with powerfull shooting, can be kitted for MC slayage, and, depending on your preferances, can be kept as cheap assault units, or upgraded to points-intensive powerhouses. in some ways, they feel like a light carnifex.

 

Daemon princes are not going to wipe out any units with pie-plates of doom, and are more vunerable to small-arms fire than Soul Grinders, but are considerably less vunerable to High strenght AT shooting and powerfists (especilly when given the MoTz). they are also considerably smaller, and easier to hide than the giant Soul Grinders.

 

Personally, I do not favor the Soul Grinder, so have little to say on it. its maw cannon is brutal to be sure, and a fleeting walker can be fun, but being the only vehicle in the list, will find itself under a lot of AT attention, especilly given its size.

[Raptor1313]

I disagree on the DP. He is still fundamentally assaulty; it's just a matter of whether he's actively going into assault or kitted out for counterassault duty (IE: Mark of Tzeentch, Gaze, Bolt).

 

WS7, 4 base attacks, S5, ignores armor saves and rolls 2d6 + Str for armor penetration? He's melee that can kind of shoot.

 

I don't think we need five seperate sectiosn for the marks.

 

I think we need 'shooty/counterassault' and 'cc-oriented' for the DP.

 

Beyond that, it's what tricks you get with the various Gods. (IE: more killy with Khorne, Killy + Durable with Nurgle, Pavane w/ Slaanesh, and shooty w/ Tzeentch). They're all either killy or assaulty.

[Infidel]

Then perhaps we should start with the CC variants?

[Captain Malachi]

I dunno, I think Minigun's right, when you use a Tzeentch prince with bolt (and gaze if you want) you usually try and stay our of assault and use your proper assualt units to fight. At least you do in multi-god armies, I know it would be different in a mono-Tzeentch army as they don't have proper assault units outside of the prince. I think Miniguns role idea is good and the roles he's put down I agree with.

[Rahveel]

I play mono-Tz, and I still dont assault with my prince. he is used as a tough gun platform, that does well when assaulted.

[==Me==]

High WS, A, and MC rules make DPs assaulty. You can add shooty bits, but that's only to make it easier when you want to get into assault.

 

As far as comparing the two goes, it comes down to this for ==Me==.

 

DPs are very customizable and potentially very expensive, so they have to be focused for a specific role. Tank buster, MC killer, fast beater, etc. You can't afford a generalist Prince. Grinders on the other hand are very flexible for a very low cost. They can assault, shoot, survive, and move quickly. DPs fill a role, Grinders can be thrown into any list and work.

[Captain Malachi]

Sorry guys, before we start debating about the princes use, have we actually decided on how we're going to write this up?

[==Me==]

The original style would be good for consistency's sake, but a big Grinder vs. Prince thing at the end would sate the masses.

[Captain Malachi]

Well in that case get debating, but shall we do soulgrinders first to get them out of the way? They should be a fair bit quicker with so few options.

[Infidel]

I'll bite.

 

Grinders is a 13 FA walker, meaning that they are immue to close combat weapons of s6 or less; can only be glanced by s7 and in the current metagame where every MEQ is packing a hidden PF, can only be penetrated on a 6+, and even so there is only 1/3 chance for a grinder to go out.

 

Meaning, when the current mentality is to bring lots and lots of anti-infantry weapon against daemons so they shred us before we shred them, grinder laugh it off (with the exception of assault cannons), on a rending roll of 2+ will sill penetrate.

 

They are stompy, fleet gets them into combat plenty quick and even if not, it still has pretty good shooting attack all around. Phelgm is daemon's #2 horde controller and harvester guns....oh well, it shoots, when it connects, it hurts, but dont expect it to do much. A naked grinder can shoot all of its weapon, fire a heavy flamer then charge. Probably the most incredible thing for 135 points, nothing in the codex can do better. Toungue is our best AT gun, and grinders are our only chance against monoliths.

 

Being vehicle, however, grinder is much more prone to big guns and melta weapons. The multimelta attack bikes and suicide drop n' melta etc....a DP has 4 wounds and a invul, meaning that they're much more survivable to big guns, heavy gauss blaster, las cannon, railgun, whatever. DP is also infintely better against MCs in CC.

 

This is what comes to mind now, i'm sure others can fill in plenty good.

[Captain Malachi]

That's a pretty good sum up. I'll say more later but frankly it's far too early in the morning for the heavy thinking I have to do for these things :)

[Infidel]

What time zone are you in captn?

 

I think one thing that should be pointed out is their inability to deal with dreadnaughts adequately. A marine army will definately field dreadnaughts and grinders vs dreadnaughts is generally not a good idea. True that they have inferior attacks, but at I4 they strike first and will most likely penetrate. The dreads are also cheaper and more numerous. A grinder takes considerable risk from a dread, while a DP will most likely kill it outright due to the MC status, high WS, high A and high I.

[Captain Malachi]

What time zone are you in captn?

GMT standard, in actual fact it was noon, but I'm 17 and that's early morning for me :blush:

 

I agree the dread issue should be mention, I'll write something up tomorrow and get it up.

[Corpse.]

If I may gentlemen. For perhaps the easier of the two to rate/categorise.

 

Soul Grinder

-Teleports in, and is large, using an icon to bring one in successive turns will allow it to arrive easier.

-The natural flame template makes its short range teleportation a disruption for cover save allowances, destructive ability against melee chargers that may take you offguard and makes for a decent platform to counter an enemy stronger then what your force can handle.

-The Tongue upgrade allows a decent sucker punch against vehicles before engaging in melee. However you charge what you shoot at, so if you dont use its range then your probly going to charge it and crush it anyways. Its a great alternative to try and take down a dreadnought without charging it, though.

-The Phlegm upgrade is the defiler button. Short ranged to be forced to remain close, also powerful if used correctly at the right times such as catching an enemy that just won a melee and didnt disperse much. Also great for a shock and firepower attraction if its in the first wave.

-The ability to fleet gives it a cheaper version f you dont want to shoot with it. It can be pretty nasty without any upgrades, and mostly works in the role of "big brother" to the other units around it like a dreadnought would.

 

-Fear initative 4+ anti vehicle weapons, this includes dreadnoughts, krak/melta grenades while immobilised, wraithords, eldar farseers and warlocks (they all have str9 melee weapons), large groups that can cover for a hidden powerfist, eviscerator, power klaw and rending.

 

These drawbacks are for your vehicle's weapons choices where you do not have to modify the model to get any of the ranged weapons choices. This is a tripple bonus. No need to modify the model. You can build your weapons choices based on the models role and/or what the rest of your army is based off of or what it needs. And that such a large model can be taken with none of them for points chipping, you ever try taking the heavy bolters off a predator?

 

Should be bit of a start for you guys.

 

 

Edit: Eh, yeah they seem to be ok with it on Warseer but blue here gets barked at so I'm stopping the blue here hehe.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

@Corsair: Post things in blue, no one will bother reading your stuff.

 

It all looks pretty good to me, I can't really add anything more, only reinforce what others have said.

[Captain Malachi]

Ok, it's quite big, but I kind of figured it would be, there's a lot to say on these guys.

 

Soulgrinders:

Our only vehicle, you can take up to three in a game, but that’s quite a few points in a small number of models, two is more sensible. They help immensely with our anti-tank problem, they can take tongue to take out tanks at range, though this isn’t always a good idea as with a ballistic skill of three, you aren’t likely to do much unless you take a lot of them, which isn’t exactly points effective. However, in close combat the soulgrinder will annihilate most vehicles without breaking a sweat. Five strength ten attacks against rear armour is very effective at tank busting. They have a little more trouble with land raiders and monoliths, but everyone does.

 

As for shooting, they have two anti-infantry weapons, the mawcannon and the harvester gun. The mawcannon can fire in three modes, vomit, the previously mentioned tongue, and phlegm. The last two have to be purchased at a reasonable price. The harvester gun is a six shot bolter at 24” range, it can be good for adding casualties to enemy units, but on its own it is unlikely to do much. The Vomit attack is a template weapon with good strength and average AP, it can do damage but its short range lowers its effectiveness somewhat. Generally, you’ll want to buy phlegm for your soulgrinder. When packing phlegm your machine can fire off large blasts in to enemy units, resulting in a large number of casualties, especially against horde armies. Its high strength just makes it better. The soulgrinder has fleet though, so you may not always want to shoot if you’d rather be in combat.

 

However, despite it’s incredible shooting and close combat abilities, the soulgrinder has one glaring weakness: Anti-tank weapons. Being the only vehicle you’ll have, it’s pretty much guaranteed that all of your opponents anti-tank weapons will be used on your soulgrinder. AV13 helps, and the fact it has rear armour 11 is good too since it stops the enemy from going round the back and boltering you to death. But without serious support he’s going down quick, this is why you need to run them in pairs at least, one will die, two still die but they get a few shots off first. It’s worth noting that the ‘daemon’ rule makes the soulgrinder immune to ‘crew stunned’ and ‘crew shaken’ damage results, meaning you have to be destroyed or have your weapons blown off to stop you from shooting. Finally, beware of dreadnoughts, with their higher initiative they can destroy you in close combat before you get to attack.

 

Note on size- The soulgrinder is a very big model, so deep striking can be difficult. Either use icons to guide them in or deep strike in to large, open areas. Having your soulgrinder drop down and instantly be immobilized from landing in cover isn’t fun.

 

I probably missed something, so if I did let me know.

[==Me==]

Grinders are actually quite cheap, 3 is fine, but definitely taking multiples is the way to go.

 

Also, fleet gives them a good boost to catch enemy units and stomp on them.

 

S10 versus a Monolith is the best you can do, unless it's a Demolisher Cannon :lol:

[Captain Malachi]

I'm still not convinced they're actually that cheap. I mean, how much is a dread? 120-ish? (I forget) A soulgrinder is 160 (since you almost always buy phlegm), so yeah they're cheap, but they ain't THAT cheap.

 

You're right on the monolith though, I'll add a note saying they're still our best bet.

[Infidel]

The dreads come in as cheap as 90 and upwards of 150 on a decked out venerated and most (if not all of them) are elite choices.

 

I'm just not warm towards walkers, dakka pred, vindi, LRs, Baal etc, these are fine, for 160 points they can have some pretty impressive heavy firepower while a grinder with a tongue has....one shot of it at bs3.

 

However, they shrug off those annoying save denying DH shots, so i guess that is something. In an army with 3 grinders with phlegm landing on the first turn, can do some incredible damage to an enemy whose not prepared. 3x s8 ap3 pies will kill almost anything.

[==Me==]

An Ironclad comes in at a similar cost and a Soul Grinder has better shooting. Compared to optimal DP builds it's a cheap beater.