[Daemon review] Heavy Support

[Captain Malachi]

I've changed the first line from "Our only vehicle, you can take up to three in a game, but that’s quite a few points in a small number of models, two is more sensible" to "Our only vehicle, you can take up to three in a game, two is more common but three works too." I've also added "They’re still generally our best bet though, especially against the monolith." to the end of the first paragraph.

 

So if we're done with the soulgrinder let's move on to princes. Are we going with Miniguns 'role' idea?

[Infidel]

I think that's reasonable. I think we could start with the ranged assault tzeenchian DP, since 160 pt is the same as a grinder with upgrade.

 

DP + MoT + Gaze + Bolt < Standard Config

Optional: Iorn Hide + Wings

Alternative powers: Breath, Boon, Soul Devourer, Master of Sorcery

 

Would you say this is a reasonable starting point?

[Captain Malachi]

I dunno, that's a less common build, I'd be more inclined to start with a melee oriented prince build than a ranged one. Either the cheap walker or the expensive heavy hitter.

[Infidel]

So i assume a more common build would be a nurgle + noxious + ironhide (with or without wings) DP?

 

In the same variety we also have tzeentch + might DP and slaanesh + hide + might dp, guess we can go from there?

[Captain Malachi]

Actually, we can work on the order later, we can always rearrange. So fire support princes- decent ranged anti-tank, bit of anti-infantry. I think it's safe to say their main use is light armour busting, since heavy armour won't really be threatened by a single S8 shot. I think what makes them useful is the ability to bust open fast moving, lightly armoured vehicles. Our melee anti-tank options have trouble there since they can't catch them and when they do they hit on 6's, but with bolt you hit on 2's.

 

The other power of course is gaze, mostly I consider this a utility power, useful if no tanks present themselves, or the armour on the tank is very light, but tanks should always be priority targets.

 

Oh, those other two builds you mentioned would be light assault, whereas the Nurgle build you said was heavy assault. We should probably separate them since they do have different roles. I think we should say the Nurgle one (when on heavy assault duty) should have wings always, since the idea is that it's expensive but does a lot of damage, walking is too slow.

[Infidel]

The one problem i have with the firesupport DP is that because we dont have we are legion upgrade, we have to fire a bolt and gaze at the same target. Most of the time you'd want to throw those S5 AP3 at MEQs and S8 AP1 at vehicles. Gaze is ineffective against any sort of vehicle (well, i guess you might get lucky with a rear shot on AV 10, but i wont count on it) while bolt is overkill for troops. In addition, s5 is too weak to deal with high toughness targets effectively.

 

As a consequence, I've beginning to contemplate the idea of a DP that packs MoT, Bolt and breath. This is used when there is no flamer or phlegms around to do hoarde control and breath is effective against both vehicle and infantry. The bolt still does its job against enemy transports, forcing their troops to be out in the open and the breath template meaning that if you position your prince correctly, you can catch multiple units under the template.

 

In addition, i believe a light assault DP will also benefit from having breath, since they dont have fleet we cant assault after running that D6 anyway. Ff we're within assault range, chance is that juicy template will carve a bloody toll on the enemy unit before you smash into it.

[Captain Malachi]

Good points, but before I write anything up I'll leave it for a while for other people to have their say. Speaking of which, where is everyone? We haven't heard anything from ==Me==, Raptor, Minigun or any of the others for a while (well, 3 days but still...).

[==Me==]

Sorry, been busy. I'll have something up later tonight.

[Captain Malachi]

No worries ==Me==, I just didn't want to put anything up before we had input from a few people at least. So far on this particular build it's just been me and Infidel (as far as I remember).

[Rahveel]

The one problem i have with the firesupport DP is that because we dont have we are legion upgrade, we have to fire a bolt and gaze at the same target. Most of the time you'd want to throw those S5 AP3 at MEQs and S8 AP1 at vehicles. Gaze is ineffective against any sort of vehicle (well, i guess you might get lucky with a rear shot on AV 10, but i wont count on it) while bolt is overkill for troops. In addition, s5 is too weak to deal with high toughness targets effectively.

 

I still think this is an efective build, the bolt adds a bit of punch to shooting vrs MEQ and TEQ, and adds flexibuility as both a ranged tank hunter (av 14 notwithstanding) and a decent gun platform. In my mono-Tz list I have 9 bolts, and they find as much use killing MEQ as anything.

 

I also find that this build of DP is most effective as a line holder, I do not typically advance on my enemy, or try to engage him in CC, superior CC stats mean only that he can provide an effective counter-assault should my enemy assault one of my squishy units.

[Infidel]

So far on this particular build it's just been me and Infidel (as far as I remember).

 

Now you mention it....

 

I still think this is an efective build, the bolt adds a bit of punch to shooting vrs MEQ and TEQ, and adds flexibuility as both a ranged tank hunter (av 14 notwithstanding) and a decent gun platform. In my mono-Tz list I have 9 bolts, and they find as much use killing MEQ as anything.

 

I also find that this build of DP is most effective as a line holder, I do not typically advance on my enemy, or try to engage him in CC, superior CC stats mean only that he can provide an effective counter-assault should my enemy assault one of my squishy units.

 

I see your point. On the horrors they do come much cheaper and numerous and instead of using them as a tank stunner like i have, it's probably more useful emptied into a squad as a guranteed wound (given it hits).

 

The moment they see 2 GDs and a collection of DPs/Grinder or flamers/fiends/crushers that will mulch them next turn, we make them play our game, we make them play a Chaos Daemon game. If we dont approach them and just hang back, we're playing the dakka game when our strength is elsewhere. I guess in a mono-god list you dont have that option.

[Captain Malachi]

First (very rough draft):

 

Daemon princes:

Seeing as how the prince is so customizable, we’ve had to limit ourselves a bit. Rather than go through every single upgrade and how it compares to the others, we’re going to give you some different roles they can fulfil, tell you what we feel is the best loadout to do this, and give notes on possible variations (these will be limited though).

 

Fire support: Mark of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch and daemonic gaze. For 160 points, which is conveniently the same as our optimal soulgrinder build, you have some decent ranged anti-tank with a high ballistic skill, as well as strong counter assault abilities. Bolt of Tzeentch will help a lot with our lack of light armour busting ability, since normally we have to do it in close combat where we end up hitting on 6’s, bolt however hits on 2’s. The downside is that it only has one shot, so you’re looking at a maximum of seven shots a game, depending on the number of turns you play.

 

The second power we recommend you take is daemonic gaze. This allows your prince to be fairly good at infantry killing, and it can threaten very light armour, especially when coupled with bolt. However, since it is only S5, don’t rely on tank busting with it. This is mainly a back-up weapon for when no vehicles present themselves. Note that when firing at infantry, you should fire the bolt as well, it may not be it’s optimal target but it is a pretty much guaranteed wound.

 

I just wrote this up five minutes ago, and am having trouble concentrating so I probably missed something. I'm going to add a note on breath of chaos later on.

[Infidel]

Perhapse a note saying that Gaze shreds MEQs and Bolt specifically kills transports and TEQs. A mechanised army is a massive pain and a BS5 S8 AP1 weapon is probably our best answer to that.

[Captain Malachi]

If I remember right our armoury section mentions the point on what the powers are best at killing, so I'll leave that, but I will add a note about mech armies being a pain and this being a good answer to it.

 

This better?

Fire support: Mark of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch and daemonic gaze. For 160 points, which is conveniently the same as our optimal soulgrinder build, you have some decent ranged anti-tank with a high ballistic skill, as well as strong counter assault abilities. Bolt of Tzeentch will help a lot with our lack of light armour busting ability, since normally we have to do it in close combat where we end up hitting on 6’s, bolt however hits on 2’s. The downside is that it only has one shot, so you’re looking at a maximum of seven shots a game, depending on the number of turns you play. The main army style our army has difficulty with is mechanised, this prince build can help a lot with that, a strength eight shot is enough to bust open most transports.

 

The second power we recommend you take is daemonic gaze. This allows your prince to be fairly good at infantry killing, and it can threaten very light armour, especially when coupled with bolt. However, since it is only S5, don’t rely on tank busting with it. This is mainly a back-up weapon for when no vehicles present themselves. Note that when firing at infantry, you should fire the bolt as well, it may not be it’s optimal target but it is a pretty much guaranteed wound.

 

Optional: Breath of chaos can turn your fire support prince in to more of a short ranged counter assault unit. Swapping gaze for breath (or having both if you’re a big spender) means you get the ability to wipe out lots of infantry in one go, before charging and doing even more damage. Keeping bolt allows you to dual role the unit by taking tanks out as well. Daemonic flight makes you much more expensive but can be good in certain situations, and unholy might can increase your combat prowess. Overall though we prefer the bolt, gaze and mark of Tzeentch build.

[Infidel]

:)

 

So, what's next?

[Captain Malachi]

Let's go for light assault, so something like: MoK, might, maybe hide. Cheap, and therefore expendable, but will still do a bit of damage in CC. My least favourite build I think, but it has a place as a soulgrinder equivalent for when you face a lot of anti-tank, just without the shooting.

 

Possible builds:

MoK, might, hide.

MoTz, might.

MoN, touch.

 

All of them are just over 100 points, so you don't lose too much if they die, which they will. I feel they're somewhat equivalent to a screamer-killer carnifex, about the same killy-ness, but a little less survivable for the points. They're better at lower points values, but can also be good if you want to spam MCs while still having lots of troops and elites.

[Infidel]

i feel that hide is almost a must on these boys, perhapse slightly less so for the nurgle prince.

 

An MC that can be effective double-tapped? No thank you.

 

MoK and Might is good for any army that wants a cheap MC assaulter, but I feel that in an army that already assaults so well it doesnt bring much to the party.

 

The MoT/Might prince benefit from a 4++ save, and therefore is best pitched against stuff that will usually deny you armour saves. Terminators and power fists immediately spring to mind. They are also more survivable to melta weapons which so many people nowadays seems to be using.

 

MoN + Noxious will still benefit greatly from the additional survivablilty the hide confers, even at T6 he could still be taken out by heavy bolter, assault cannon, scatter laser, deathspinner....anything that's high s but at ap 4+ or worse.

 

an MoS, Might and Hide prince is also acceptable and because of the high I, it will strike before even Eldar and on occassions, those annoying MEQs with furious charge (zerkers, DC etc).

[Captain Malachi]

Light assault: Unlike the fire support build, there is no standard mark for this build, they can all do well. Basically this build is a cheap monstrous creature that is used to get a decent bit of combat power in your army for little in the way of points. An example build would be: Mark of Khorne, unholy might and iron hide. At only 145 points it is relatively cheap, is good in combat and can take a fair bit of fire power before dying. Other possible builds include, but are not limited to: Mark of Tzeentch and unholy might, mark of Nurgle, iron hide and noxious touch. Another option to look at if you play a lot of eldar is the mark of Slaanesh, you don’t get the extra attack of the mark of Khorne, or the extra defensive abilities of the marks of Nurgle and Tzeentch, but you do get to hit first against pretty much any basic troops out there, and most characters.

 

The main thing to remember is that these guys are cheap, and therefore expendable. They have limited killing power, but they attract about as much attention as a much stronger prince, meaning they can be used as a giant target as well as a combat unit. However, if they do make it in to combat you can be fairly sure of taking a good few of the enemy down with you. As long as you don’t expect miracles from the light assault prince, then you may well be pleasantly surprised. They make decent anti-tank units too.

 

How does that sound?

[djkest]

You guys are forgetting the huge advantage of AV 13 walker- need str 7 just to glace it, and only a roll of 6 on the glace table will seriously hurt it. Even a powerfist only has a 17% chance of getting a pen.

Good against: Any type of vehicle, space marines, Terminators (barring the TH/SS termies), anything Str 7 melee or less

Bad against: Opposing dreadnoughts, Lascannons, Railguns, and Demolisher Cannons, and str 9/10 powerfists, and chainfists.

 

I am planning on running 2 naked SGs, they drop somewhere safe, and fleet forward, soaking fire until (hopefully) they get into CC and smash stuff. Also distract people from shooting my Bloodthirster and Tz Herald hopefully. If you plan on fleeting, taking a mawcannon upgrade is silly, obviously.

[djkest]

Oops, about the prince.

Light assault: Nurgle, Hide, Touch, and Cloud of flies. Paying 155 points for all that isn't too shabby. The 'nades are great for attacking stuff in cover. He would be good for adding punch to a EPI list, or giving some assault support or counter assault power. Great against MEQs or certain types of termies (non-fisty ones) due to MC rule. Good WS and I make him pretty mean.Touch could be left off if you aren't expecting anything higher than T4.

 

Slaanesh: Hide, MoS, Aura - great against eldar or perhaps to fight genestealers or K berserkers- anything I5 or I6. It's also very cheap at 125 points. Unholy might (145 points) would be necessary against wraithguard though, and a wraithlord would effectively stop this guy in his tracks. Pavane and Musk are useful, but very expensive for how long this guy will stick around.

 

In my limited experience, people try very hard to take down the demon princes- they hate seeing them around.

[Captain Malachi]

I'm not entirely convinced you can make a viable light assault Nurgle prince. Just by getting the mark your guy is 110 points, add hide and you have 140...... The one you put down is more like a heavy assault prince without wings. In fact, that's exactly what it is :ermm:

 

I think the ideal light assault prince (and one I forgot to mention) is no mark and just might. 100 points for a S6 MC with 4 attacks, that's pretty good in my book, especially when it deep strikes and has other similar princes backing it up. The Slaanesh one you mentioned is good though. I think I might remove the Khorne one as an example, with both hide and might it's too expensive to be called 'light assault'.

[Captain Malachi]

How's this? I'd like to get this one out of the way so we can move on to the heavy assault prince soon. Besides, GreatCrusade08 is waiting for this to get done so he can do his scout tactica :P

 

Light assault: Unlike the fire support build, there is no standard mark for this build, they can all do well. Basically this build is a cheap monstrous creature that is used to get a decent bit of combat power in your army for little in the way of points. An example build would be just giving it unholy might. At only 100 points it is very cheap, is good in combat but can‘t stand up to concentrated firepower. Other possible builds include, but are not limited to: Mark of Tzeentch and unholy might, or mark of Khorne and unholy might (optional iron hide). Another option to look at if you play a lot of eldar is the mark of Slaanesh, you don’t get the extra attack of the mark of Khorne, or the extra defensive abilities of the marks of Nurgle and Tzeentch, but you do get to hit first against pretty much any basic troops out there, and most characters. Throw on aura of acquiescence and you have a decent monstrous creature running around beating on those toughness three eldar.

 

The main thing to remember is that these guys are cheap, and therefore expendable. They have limited killing power, but they attract about as much attention as a much stronger prince, meaning they can be used as a giant target as well as a combat unit. However, if they do make it in to combat you can be fairly sure of taking a good few of the enemy down with you. As long as you don’t expect miracles from the light assault prince, then you may well be pleasantly surprised. They make decent anti-tank units too. If running light assault princes it’s probably best to run several or give them soulgrinder back-up, this is mainly to make it so at least one will make it in to combat.

[Captain Malachi]

No one? Am I the only one still working on this? :tu:

[Rahveel]

actually, it looks pretty good. I dont use light support princes, so I cant coment to much, but it looks good to me.

[djkest]

So for 120 points you could get a light assault prince, who has S5, T5, 3+/5++, 4 A, W4 or...

for 120 points you could get S5, T5, 3+/5++, 9 attacks (12 on the charge), 6 wounds and power weapons from 3 bloodcrushers.

 

The only big upside to a DP is 2D6 to pen vehicles. That and the DP has +2 WS.

 

Sorry, I guess this is offtopic. I'll try to be better.