[Daemon review] Heavy Support

[Captain Malachi]

That's why I mainly view them as a anti-tank/big targets. Your opponent doesn't know it's only got a couple upgrades, so he'll shoot it down as soon as he can, and if he doesn't then all the better for you. Besides, you may have already filled out your elites section.

 

Minor point but the prince +1I if not charging. Small point I know but since they're both slow it may come in to effect more often that you'd think. The downside is that he doesn't get S6 on the charge. He is safer to DS though.....

 

Ok, here's a list of pros and cons comparing that prince you put up vs bloodcrushers:

Pros: +2 WS, 2D6 vs vehicles, 10 points cheaper (I'm not sure how you got 120 for a prince with hide, I make it 110), smaller base, more threatening target, won't get tied up by dreads, straight I5.

 

Cons: Less wounds, less attacks, no furious charge, competes with other powerful heavy slots.

 

 

There are more I'm sure but I got bored. Point is they perform different roles. The prince kills vehicles, dreads specifically, while the 'crushers go kill infantry. However, as I said at the start, this is my least favourite prince build, I just want to agree on this so we can move on to the support build.

[Infidel]

Hey Captn'

 

Fell off the grid a bit, got personal stuff to catch up on.

 

So, we're talking about the light princes.

 

I dont like them. True that they come in cheap but I feel if we waste a heavy slot for something that is only effective against vehicles and dreads in CC (let's face it, they're not very good against anything else) then it's not the most effective use of the points.

 

The Goods:

S6 is nice, S6 + 2D6 for armour penetration is even nicer

T6 with nurgle upgrade, but that's treading in the heavy territory

Good I, good WS, meaning you'll hit first and hit often.

 

But in just about anything else, it's fairly horrible. They are bad agaist most things that aint vehicle. Think about it, they dont have enough attacks to take out big squads, T5 means that when the big squad hits back it'll hurt. They cant shoot, they cant fleet and they'll lose to other MCs and dedicated melee troops.

 

Their use is fairly limited and if you want something cheap and stompy, go for a grinder, at least it comes with a heavy flamer ++ and harvester, not to mention being a AV13 walker.

[Captain Malachi]

Yeah, the only thing they really have over the soulgrinder is that they actually win out vs dreads ('grinder's get mauled). I'll add a note saying that generally a 'grinder is often a more cost effective option, in the meantime shall we move on to support princes?

 

A good support prince (well, the only support prince I can think of) is MoS, pavane and season to taste. Breath of chaos makes a good back up weapon since you can pavane them in to a nice teardrop formation. Generally I'm not a fan of pavane, so I'm not really convinced on the viability of this build either...

 

Anyway, how would you guys use it to make it worth the points? And what other upgrades would you give it? I'm thinking hide and flight are useful, but not mandatory.

 

 

By the way, if you can think of another support build I'm all ears, but I don't think there is one.

[Infidel]

They have a rather interesting application. I have personally used them to some effect against BTs in my "STD" force. They are like your centre in a basketball game, your last line-of-defense against enemy's assault.

 

A prince with BS5 is arguably the best place to mount Pavane and if you get enough of them they're like those dual lash CSM lists.

 

They're great against other assaulty units of equivilent point cost (180pt for MoS, Pavane, Hide and Breath), BA VAT and various BT units spring to mind immediately. They can use pavane on any infantry closing in on your position to either push them back D6 or increase the assault range of your units by pulling them forward D6.

 

In most instances, with pavane will mean you have would have effectively ran during shooting when in fact, you just fired your pavane. Move 6", Pavane D6", Assault 6", almost the same as getting Fleet. So now you can position up their troops nicely and then burn half of their squad off the table and then follow up with an assault at I6, they'll most likely break, and you'll most likely catch up and probably wipe them out in one turn.

 

Slighly bordering the heavy assault area:

Add in Musk (now @ 200pt) you get to Hit 'N Run the same squad with breath followed up by assault. and with might you get something that out-kills a KoS with Musk and Might.

 

Comparison:

KoS with Might/Musk: 235pt, WS8 T6, I10, S7, A6. Fleet, Hit N Run, 4++

 

Prince with MoS, Iron Hide, Might, Musk, Pavane, Breath: 220pt, WS7, T5, I6, S6, A4, Breath, Pavane, Hit N Run, 3+/5++

 

T5 VS T6 is largely offset by having Iron Hide, Pavane effectively makes you fleet on most targets, breath will more than make up for the -1S (you still instagib T3 and breath makes it easier to put an wound on T5+) and I6 and I10 / WS7 and WS8 really don't make THAT much of a difference.

 

Interesting how a slaanesh DP can turn out to be somewhat of a power house eh? Which would you rather take?

[Captain Malachi]

How does this sound?

 

Support:

A prince with pavane of Slaanesh usually falls in to the ‘support’ category. What this means is that it can work with your other units to make for an effective assault phase, by using pavane to pull the enemy out of cover for example. It can also be used to aid your shooting, denying the enemy their cover saves can be very effective when combined with a unit of horrors. Alternatively, you can use them to try and push the enemy back, say they’re getting too close to your horrors, you can use pavane to move the unit away. Finally, you can use it to pull the enemy off objectives.

 

You’ll have noticed that we aren’t fans of this upgrade on other units, the reason for this is that they all have fleet, and so should be using it. They also generally have a lower ballistic skill and so can make less use of it in the first place. However, on a prince you get an effective platform that doesn’t sacrifice anything to make use of it. Coupled with breath of chaos it becomes even more effective, you can use pavane to bunch them up in to a template shape, and then use breath to roast them. However, this is less ‘support’ and more ‘kill’.

 

Beyond pavane, the other upgrades are personal choice. We recommend iron hide to keep it alive, mark of Slaanesh is mandatory, so you may as well take aura of acquiescence to make use of that initiative six. But other than that just take what you think will help.

[antique_nova]

i associate princes with one chance tank killers from range, good at tying up targets and can defeat whole mobs of squads.

princes weakness nurgle, ironhided, winged or not are skimmers and elite troops such as terminators or blood crushers etc.

 

the blood crushers on the other had, arent tank killers, they are anti termi, anti MC and generally anti everything that has minimum two feet. except a dreadnought might tie them up for a round or two, not a eldar walker though it would get owned. however blood crushers need firesupport otherwises they will be shoot to pieces while the enemy just sends i expendible units against your dp and move elsewhere.

generally i think deamonetts work well with bc or bc with dp.

thanks

antique_nova

[Infidel]

I'm having difficulty understanding you ;), but from what I can gather you're praising the Nurgle prince and then comparing a prince to bloodcrusher.

 

Well, we had a very thorough analysis on blood crushers in the elite review section so i think that's a more appropriate place to put it.

 

I don't really see a prince defeating a horde of squads, with out Musk it's quite easy for a prince to get tied down and 4 attacks only gets you so far. I agree on them being excellent tank hunters, as are most MCs, difference being we can have all 5 of them deepstriking. Bolt of Tzeentch will not reliably deal with AV14, but we've already discussed firesupport prince.

 

Please conform to the format of which the discussion is taking place

[Captain Malachi]

Well, if we're done with the support prince, we can move on to the heavy hitter.

 

The way I see it is this is your standard expensive but tough MC, somewhat comparable to a god-fex (lots of expensive defensive upgrades, usually a CC beast). I'd avoid marks other than Nurgle, although it is possible to make a strong Tzeentch heavy hitter I suppose. My ideal loadout: MoN, flight, hide, touch, cloud and breath is optional. Obviously it's main strength is that it's near impossible to kill, and wounding on two's is just icing on the cake.

 

Flight is pretty important, since it allows the prince to actually affect the battle. This is what makes it a useful build, unlike the god-fex. The god-fex's main problem is that it won't get anywhere and will just get shot up, the Nurgle prince on the other hand is able to get in combat fast and kill everything nearby.

 

There's more but I want to leave something for you guys to say :rolleyes:

[Infidel]

I personally dont feel that wings are THAT important. We're a DS army and for the cost of a wing i can have 2 icons, put the icons on Tzeentch heralds and voila! Use their Jetbike movement to position the icons and then DS the Princes without scatter.

[Captain Malachi]

But then you have the same problem as deepstriking TH/SS termies, the other guy just walks (or worse, gets in a rhino and rides) away. Without wings you'll never catch a mobile army. And there's a LOT of mobile armies out there.

[Infidel]

Nids deal with that just fine....but that's with their massive horde tying the enemy before the fex makes it to combat.

 

180pt on the wings is enough to pay for another squad of 6 fiends, which is immensely faster than even a winged prince.

 

Heavy builds:

Nurgle Prince + Hide + Noxious Touch + Breath + Cloud: 185pt (245 with wings)

Tzeentch Prince + Gaze + Bolt + Breath + Master of Sorcery + Unholy Might: 220pt (280pt with wing). Can gaze, breath, bolt AND assault a unit with S6 MC attacks, but no we-are-legion

Slaanesh Prince + Pavane + Hide + Breath + Musk + Might + Aura: 225pt (285pt with wings)

 

As we can see, the nurgle prince is the toughest and deadliest possible prince out there and at a modest 210 pt you get a MC killer that will bring down many many wraithlords and dreads and tyrands and fexes in combat. THe Slaanesh prince can be optimised to do without Might, Aura and Pavane. Brining the total cost down to 230pt on a winged hit n run breathing MC, which is pretty good. Pavane is poor man's wings, effectively making a Slaanesh prince fleet against infantry. Compared to the other 2, the Tzeentch prince dont have a reason to exist.

 

You know what? I think I'm warming to Nurgle princes :)

[Infidel]

Did some mathhammer

 

The GUO is better than a Nurgle prince with hide in surviving s4 by a 3 to 1 odd with that additional FNP and is only 5 pt more than an unwinged prince (against weapons that deny FNP it still has + 1 wound and a better invul save). Prince is, however, better at dealing wiht scatter lasers.

 

At the end of the day, a winged nurgle prince is basically a cheaper Blood Thirster (35pts cheaper in fact) with NT making up for its lack of strength and in a list that already run 2 BT as HQ, having 3 more mini Nurgle princes is going to be hell for the opponent.

[Captain Malachi]

For the record, 'nid MCs are usually optimised for shooting with devourers/venom cannons/barbed stranglers etc, not for combat like ours have to be. They also have 8 of them :) My optimal build is this: MoN, flight, hide, touch and cloud. 215 points of CC goodness, no ranged attack but I take three to make up for it.

 

I wouldn't recommend a single heavy hitter prince, he's just gonna get shot down very quickly. Maybe if you have other princes but never just one prince.

[Corpse.]

Um, from what I see there is a little comparison going on with monstrous creatures. To see where the Daemon Prince stands, in terms of cost effectiveness and comparison for the power, I'll just doddle with a small list. (No real defined order, just a rough draft)

 

Prince's Weaponskill only hinders WS2 (very few units) to hit him on 5+, so lets keep him cheap (preferably cheaper then 190 comparing to a 200 pt keeper of secrets)

 

Princes BS is one of the better out there so he can compare to a Lord of Change in terms of being shooty, and same terms of strength with the unholy might upgrade.

 

With the mark of tzeentch, and iron hide, he is almost as tough as a bloodthirster when shot at. And almost as tough as a Lord of CHange if the shots dont negate the armor save.

 

The prince is smaller, so that his 50% obscured result (when not using Mark of Tzeentch) is easier to get then a greater daemon would, except for maybe a Great Unclean One (because he stands a bit low).

 

 

So if we want him to hang out with Lords of change, he keeps up with it, in most ways and perhaps cheaper for the use of powers. He is the same as a keeper of secrets in melee if facing MEQ and other basic class infantry.

 

So, I suggest the following marks being worthwhile to a guy who uses upgrades for their efficiency and not fluff.

-Unholy Might

-Iron Hide

-Daemonic Flight

-Mark of Nurgle &

-Cloud of Flies

-Noxious Touch

-Mark of Khorne &

-Death Strike

-Mark of Slaanesh &

-Aura of Acquiescense

-Pavane of Slaanesh

-Sporific Musk (In shooty forces perhaps)

-Mark of Tzeentch &

(Combinations)

-Wings+Bolt of Tzeentch+Breath of Chaos+Master of Sorcery

-We are Legion+Master of Sorcery+Any two Powers (Wings with Breath of Chaos and/or Boon of Mutation)

-One power: Any will do (goes for normal DP's without Mark of Khorne as well)

 

Try to keep the cost 180 and under for their uses, otherwise if you have free points left buying 2 daemon princes with minimal upgrades will do better. If you have room for greater daemons with similar roles for the same cost in mind, go for the greater daemon instead as it is (usually) a better buy.

 

 

A different way to think of the prince is versus a greater daemon of similar makeup. Hopefully this helps?

[Infidel]

Prince can't take We Are Legion and does not come default with warpfire OR gaze, which is what makes the Therald so good at only 110pt. However, from experience i do find that even a Tzeentch DP without ironhide tend to fall from torrents of small arms fire really easily.

 

Khorne princes really don't have a place outside of a themed army, the +1 attack profile is usless and the upgrades it receives is also pretty bad. Death strike is a plasma gun and is probably not going to make a difference. Take might, blessings and iron hide with the optional wing if you really, really want a khorne prince, and let's not forget he can also use breath.

 

As far as heavy assault goes, i think we're out of viable buildes besides those heavily decked out Slaanesh/Tzeentch counterpart, but the Nurgle prince being the most effective of the 3.

 

Since we're still on topic, here's some observation I made which describes the difference between grinders and princes.

 

Princes can be harmed by small arms fire regardless of configuration. It is vulnerable to S4~S6 attacks while the grinder shrugs them off while a prince WILL go down to small arms fire.

But! It will taken some dedicated effort to do so and in the process, soaking up a lot of the firepower that would otherwise be trained at other thing. Let's say BS4 S4 AP5 bolters:

Nurgle Prince: 108 shots

Hide Prince: 54 shots

Tzeentch Prince: 36 shots

Rolling is also a big problem, but assuming average roll.

 

Grinders being AV13 walkers, it cant be harmed by anything short of S7 attacks, and even then it ignores stuns and shaken, so making S8 the only thing viable against it. Even then, it need a 6 to pen, then another 5+ to destroy.

 

My point being, if an enemy faces a prince, he would shoot it with everything, big guns, small guns and hurl rocks at them for models without a gun while if it's a grinder, they wont even bother shooting. In the former case, whatever is being shot at the prince is not shooting at something else while in the latter, they will use those bolters to blast our fiends/letters/netts back to the warp and still have a chance to take out the grinders with anti-tank.

 

So, the biggest benefit of the grinder is to be able to throw it at an enemy squad and laugh as the entire squad is tied down for the rest of the game while a prince is at risk of being dragged down by hordes. In range the prince is actually a better option than a grinder, and GUO being even better at the job.

[Captain Malachi]

Infidel, Khorne princes can't have breath :)

 

Heavy assault:

This is where the prince really does live up to its classification of heavy support. These princes will run you around 200 points, so generally you want to make sure they’re worth it. Most of us consider the following build to be best: Mark of Nurgle, daemonic flight, iron hide, cloud of flies, noxious touch and breath of chaos (optional). As you can probably see, it has the best defensive upgrades available to the daemon prince, toughness six and a 3+ save will increase your survivability by a long way. It takes 108 bolter shots to kill this prince, on average.

 

However, this prince does a lot more than just survive, it also kills. A lot. With noxious touch it wounds anything in the game on a 2+, making it an excellent unit for killing other monstrous creatures like carnifexes or opposing daemon princes. Flight means it will actually get in to combat, expensive but generally worth it on a big expensive prince like these. Cloud of flies just means you hit at initiative, and you deny the enemy their extra attack on the off-chance they charge you, pretty good for five points. Now, breath of chaos; expensive, but very effective at thinning the enemies ranks before a charge. However, you’re then paying 245 points for a single model, you could get a bloodthirster for 5 points more, so consider carefully before you just throw one of these princes in to your army.

 

Another possible build: Mark of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch, daemonic gaze, breath of chaos, unholy might and master of sorcery. Expensive but makes a hell of a pre-charge dent in the other guys squad. You can give it flight but then you’re paying 280 points….

 

Sorry it took so long to get up, I've been a bit busy. Sound good?

[antique_nova]

why cant they?

[Captain Malachi]

Look at the line above that list, it says princes without the mark of Khorne may have one of these shooting abilities, while Tzeentch princes can have two. (That's not word for word but it's close enough)

[Infidel]

Look at the line above that list, it says princes without the mark of Khorne may have one of these shooting abilities, while Tzeentch princes can have two. (That's not word for word but it's close enough)

Gah! Cant believe I missed that.

 

Tha just makes the Khorne prince even less good.

[Captain Malachi]

Don't worry, I missed it first time round as well. So what I've written up's good? If so, I'll post this all in one go in it's own thread, and then we can move on to army lists which I'll edit in as we go. Then, the hobby section, that should be fun, lord knows I'm not much of a painter/modeller.

 

 

 

Edit- Fixed about 6 typos, that'll teach me to post at 2.40 in the morning....

[Infidel]

Perhapse we could comment on the best way to use the 3 Heavy slots? That's something i'm definately interested in hearing about.

[Captain Malachi]

Well, this is personal opinion, but I feel that the best way is to first, choose between princes or soulgrinders. Yes, you can use both but spamming one or the other seems to work better. If you pick soulgrinders then problem solved, if you pick princes then you need to think about what your army needs, does it need a consumate monster killer? Nurgle prince it is. Does it need ranged support? Then go for the 160 point fire support build. It's a matter of asking yourself what your army lacks, and then making up for it.

 

Unless you play daemonzilla, in which case you just want some hardass princes to do all the work.

[Rahveel]

Im gonna agree with Captain Malachi, when it comes to choosing between Princes or Grinders, mixing and matching is always the worst choice. go with one or the other, and if choosing princes, consider carefully the role you want them to perform.

 

HS choices seem to do best when taken redundantly.

[Captain Malachi]

So what about you Infidel, how do you use your heavy choices?

[Corpse.]

I suppose its easy to abuse Pavane like a Lash when using soul grinders and flamers of tzeentch/breath of chaos using models. So maybe a "combination perk" system like oblits+lash like the mortal cousins of daemons may be a good place to tap into a start of the "typical tourniment list" of the future?

 

Taking 3 DP's with breath, some flamers of tzeentch and some pavane using keepers of secrets/heralds of slaanesh(even masque) to bash a good initial start before having the second wave of troops arrive?

 

Combos also decide the heavy support sections. Soul Grinders Phlegm is a bit better ranged so, that 1D6" to push a unit together may be better abused by them.

 

On or two princes with pavane can be used to get some units in range of four nurgle heralds with aura of decay for a nice area effect slapper. Enough of that could kill a good volume if done right. (Never know, it could make bunch of enemies take morale checks)

 

Just a few thoughts. ANy other combos you guys think of?