Hrvat Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Considering all the topics in this sub-forum I went and re-read the IA articles. I do not want to discuss who is right and who is wrong but the strange results of the Iron Cage. Following the Guilliman-Dorn argument the Imperial Fists divided into 3(4) forces. Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars and maybe Soul Drinkers. From the context of the article we can guess that all these chapters apart from the Imperial Fists went their separate ways with around 1000 battle brother. The Imperial Fists were left with far more than 1000 marines and those that were left were not keen to found another chapter so Dorn took these "surplus" marines to the Iron Cage. They fight the Iron Warriors there. Dorn(interesting how article mentiones the saving of Dorn rather than Imperial Fists) is saved from destruction by the Ultramarines and they go away. And then the problem comes. The Imperial Fists suffered 400 casulties in the engagement and all that reatreated were wounded in some way and are not able to participate in battle for 20 years. After reading that I went ;) Something doesn't add up. Far more marines than 1000 I read as at least a hundred or more. From the article I say more than 400 since Dorn took "surplus" marines with him. So if he only lost the "surplus" marines why would he need 20 years to rebuild and restructure his legion. I think that Dorn didn't have surplus marines left after the chapter were divided but rather wanted to purge what was left of his old legion and have a fresh start with warriors that would not be troubled with their past. So there is a little food for thought. Cheers Hrvat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Uhh yeah this is pretty much the line all Imperial Fist sympathizers take, that the veteran base of the legion was angry about having to change into a by definition weaker chapter and so Dorn took them to the Iron Cage to give them a chance to die with honor and not cause more internal trouble for the Imperium. I'm really not sure where you got the "surplus" idea. Actually if you think about it the major difference between the Iron Warrior and Imperial Fist sides to the story is whether or not Dorn really meant to capture Perturabo at at or if it was just a random act of rage combined with wanting to clean house. If Dorn really meant to capture Perturabo as the Iron Warriors thought, then it was indeed a dismal failure as Perturabo not only went unscathed, but became a daemon prince. However if he actually just wanted to vent and get rid of the old guard naysayers in his legion then it was a total success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Dorn wasn't thinking that clearly. He didn't even allow Guilliman to support him. His only thought was to crush Perturabo, and it was ultimately his undoing. When Guilliman saved Dorn it roused Dorn from his rage fueled stupor and made him see the mess he was making. He embraced the Codex, He and Guilliman made up, and the Imperial Fists became second only the the Ultramarines in Codex adherence. Its a nice story if you ask me. I can;t say for certain when the Legions split, but I would like to think it was post Iron Cage, and that this was the 'Charge of the Light Brigade' for the survivors of the Siege. A chance to go with honor like you say. I don't think that was the intent however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Following the Guilliman-Dorn argument the Imperial Fists divided into 3(4) forces. Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars and maybe Soul Drinkers. From the context of the article we can guess that all these chapters apart from the Imperial Fists went their separate ways with around 1000 battle brother. The Imperial Fists were left with far more than 1000 marines and those that were left were not keen to found another chapter so Dorn took these "surplus" marines to the Iron Cage. From the Index Astartes Imperial Fists I rather get the impression that the Imperial Fists split after the Iron Cage incident. "Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge redeemed as a Chapter." "Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead." "Early in their reorganisation, Space Marines from the Imperial Fists departed to found the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists." To me it looks like maybe Dorn wanted to sacrifice every Marine above the required Chapter level, so that he would not have to split any Marines from the parent Legion and would only be left with enough Marines for a Single Chapter, the Imperial Fists. Perhaps he would have stayed long enough in Perturabos trap to suffer enough losses, and perhaps they would not even have escaped it at all, had not Guilliman intervened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 I have a very abstract thought on the Iron Cage: Dorn sees that Guilliman will get his way with the Imperium. Dorn takes his men to battle. Dorn then is "rescued" by Guilliman. Dorn pads his loss count, admits that the Codex is right, and divides his men into (at least) four chapters. He then takes the remnants of his legion to Terra to protect the Emperor from Guilliman. Plans within tricks within tactics. I don't see anything in the fluff that shows Dorn having the "ah, now I see" thought patterns. I'm not saying Guilliman was after the "throne", simply that Dorn acted to ensure that such a thing did not occur. Guilliman remained loyal with the help of Dorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 What does that even mean? Do you still think Guilliman was a traitor? Your theory is baseless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 I didn't say he was a traitor. I am not hijacking a thread. I'm not bashing. I'm offering an alternative. Better days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 I don't see anything in the fluff that shows Dorn having the "ah, now I see" thought patterns. "Imperial Fist Chaplains teach that Dorn found Strength in meditation. For seven days he resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor. The Imperial Fists had wavered in their faith, thinking the Emperor gone, but they knew that he was still watching them from the Golden Throne. The Imperial Fists could no longer serve the Emperor that had been but they knew they must still be true to the Emperor that was. Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge redeemed as a Chapter." - Index Astartes Imperial Fists So appearently the Emperor himself told Dorn that dividing the Legion would be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Or Slaanesh sent him a vision in his masochistic self-"flagellation" to send his Veterans to the Cage to die, allowing Perturabo to garner enough gene-seed to sacrifice for his promotion to Daemon-hood. That would be a delicious plot twist; even for a devoted Black Templar like myself ^.^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Caesar_ Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 The section that Legatus quoted out of IA continues in an interesting way. A way that I think elucidates Dorn's purpose in assaulting the Iron Cage. Continuing where Legatus' quote left off: "Dorn knew that many of his Battle Brothers did not wish to found new Chapters as the Ultramarines were eager to do. There would be far too many left for one of the new thousand strong Chapters. Leaving Phalanx, he led these die-hards against against the Iron Warriors in their lair. His doubts gone, Dorn focused on the enemy ahead." I think this passage and the previous one quoted by Legatus points out some important things. First, Dorn was thinking clearly. Second, Dorn, prior to the Iron Cage, had already decided to embrace the Codex Astartes. Third, Dorn used the Iron Cage as a way to give his loyal die-hards an honorable death before splitting his Legion into Chapters (notice how the article states that he led the die-hards into battle against the Iron Warriors, not the whole Legion). Later the article describes how, after the events of the Iron Cage the Imperial Fists reorganized according to the Codex Astartes and that during this reorganization, the Legion was split into three Chapters (IFs, BTs, CFs). So the Imperial Fists would still have numbered over 1000 Marines at the time their 2nd Founding Chapters were formed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrvat Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 So the Imperial Fists would still have numbered over 1000 Marines at the time their 2nd Founding Chapters were formed. Ant that hits the nail on the head. Why would he spend next 20 years rebuilding the Fists if he only lost "surplus" marines? It doesn't make sense. Cheers Hrvat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 its not just men you lose in war. Machines, equipment, and suplies are all lost. He needed to repair rebuild and rearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messanger of Death Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I agree with Caesar. And to add to the Marshal's point of rearm and rebuilt would also need to retrain those that remained in the chapter. Remember that the imperial fists became only second to the ultra marines in following the codex (as said in previous post). So 20 years to retrain all of his troops (greater then 1000) and replace any lost equipment. In regards to the retraining my take is that most of the die hards would of been veterans. So alot of terminator armour and skilled warriors would of been lost to the chapter. This would need to be replaced if the die hards were indeed most of the imperial first veterans. Cheers Messanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 But maybe Dorn did not plan to form 3 Chapters. Maybe he planned to do only one, but Guilliman interfered before the losses were high enough, so he still had nough Marines left for two full Chapters and a few extra. The Crimson Fists and Black Templars were formed at full strength, leaving a small rest of Marines for the original Imperial Fists Chapter, and while the Black Templars and teh Crimson Fists went out to war, the Imperial Fists rebuilt. The Legion could have had something like 2800 men, and about 1500 would still have been acceptable as a Chapter (exceeding the guideline of 1000 in times of war is permitted). He went into the Iron Cage trap, but after losing only 400 Guilliman interfered. So they still ahd about 2400 left, and formed the Imperial Fists (400), the Black Templars (1000) and the Crimson Fists (1000). Of course, 2800 and 400 left in the end are arbitrary numbers, but it may have been something between 3000 and 2500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightygoose Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 guys, how many fists do you think died at the palace, by all your accounts none.... and every other engagement in the heresy, none? please the iron cage was the biggest single loss of life, however i feel it was more likely the veterna sof the legion as apposed to surplus, being that the veterans would be split up to form the command structure of the second founding chapters. it was a last hoorah for the 1st company... and thats why 400 casualties from maybe 6-800 vets remaining after the palace was so devastating, all the surviving vets.... 2-400 by my count would have gone equally split to the IF and their successors... and 66-133 are not alot to train an entire chapter.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticFox Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Following the Guilliman-Dorn argument the Imperial Fists divided into 3(4) forces. Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars and maybe Soul Drinkers. From the context of the article we can guess that all these chapters apart from the Imperial Fists went their separate ways with around 1000 battle brother. I'm not familiar with the material being discussed here but I thought it might be helpful to point out that the Black Templars did not become a 1000 marine chapter. There are approximately 5 to 6 thousand Black Templars. Their actual number is unknown because they have no homeworld and their fleets keep moving to hide their numbers. For what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messanger of Death Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 From my understand regarding the whole splitting of the Imperial Fists. The most zealous became the Black Templars, the youngest became the Crimson Fists (meaning few veterans) and the remaining stayed as Imperial Fists (according to Lexicanum this "was a hardened, veteran force"). This makes it even harder to pin point the real numbers. As we dont have set numbers from any of the fluff that anyone has said it means that we cant make any good decisions or guesses. Just left to speculations. However according to Lexicanum the Imperial Fist commanders lacked imagination with inflexible formations. So the 20 years of rebuilding the chapter (doesnt have to mean rebuilding numbers as has been assumed) could of meant rebuilding armouries and at the same time retraining the harden veterans to become better warriors under the Codex Astartes, such as using more imagination in battle plans. Cheers Messanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messanger of Death Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 @ArcticFox - it is due to the recruiting style of the Black Templars that we number so high in numbers (dont have a scout company but rather an initiate can take on a neophyte to train, from any of the planets we recruit from). However we assume that in the beginning we numbered 1000 due to the influence of Dorn and his following of the Codex Astartes. Messanger edit - dont know our numbers because we are a a crusading chapter (hence no home world and being fleet based) which by its nature makes it hard to know our numbers. Only the high marshal truely knows how many Black Templars there are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Indeed, the Black Templars have a few thousand Members now, because each crusade force is responsible for their own recruitment and no one keeps them in check. They had 10,000 years to go from a newly founded 1000 member Codex Chapter to a loose 6k+ group where one fraction does not know much about the other and is mostly pursuing it's own military goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I doubt their are much chapter who keep to the 1000 man max. Black Templars and Spacewolves as most notable examples. So why should a chapter like the Imperial Fists keep complete track of their total numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Black Templars and Space Wolves are actually the only known examples. Most chapters are organised closely after the guidelines in the Codex Astartes, though over time a lot of chapters have strayed in one way or another from the Codex organisation. Contrary to popular belief, the Chapter organisation is not and never was mandatory and is still up to the individual Chapter. What was mandatory though was the limitation of active Battle Brothers to roughly 1000 men. The Space Wolves have probably around 1500, which is not exceeding the guideline by much and may be a privileg of a first founding Chapter, which is also very active (in times of battle the guide line can be exceeded to some extent). The Templars have such high numbers simply because they are not telling anyone how many of them there really are. Even the Templars don't know, apart from the Grand Marshall. Other than these two very prominent exceptions, most chapters are considered to adhere to Codex doctrine as best as they can. Especially teh Imperial Fists are said to be second only to the Ultramarines in their adherence of the Codex Astartes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Because they are only second to the Ultramarines in their adherence to the codex. This is not the same for the black Templars, or the Space Wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Wait....so now we think Dorn was intentionally killing off his men???? Gah, just when I started to like the guy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 More like the charge at the end of the Last Samurai, minus Tom Cruise's Cruise-ness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 The Emperor's Champion Posted Today, 08:00 PM Wait....so now we think Dorn was intentionally killing off his men???? Gah, just when I started to like the guy... I can't help but wonder if Dorn and his men were having a good try at falling on their swords whilst all they had fought for died with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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