The Iron Cage

[Simonius]

I would habe thought that the Fists would lose at lot more men at the Palace than the 400 in the Iron Cage. outnumbered and besieged and about to lose until the Horus-Emperor barge incident, surely they would be losing hundreds per hour?

[Marshal Rohr]

We only know of 400 who weren't recovered. Their could be many many more whose bodies made it back, or who died from their wounds later.

[malika666]

The whole discussion seems to be about the Imperial Fists, but what about the Iron Warriors. Did the Iron Cage Incident take place before, or after they settled in the Eye of Terror?

[Askari]

Before; in the first few years after the failure of the siege of terror a large number of iron warriors remained in their scattered fortress worlds and had to be painstakingly destroyed by the loyalists. And since daemon worlds are only given to daemon princes or greater daemons, Perturabo and the Iron warriors wouldn't have settled Medrengard until after he became a Daemon prince which means after the iron cage.

 

But yeah, I always wondered how that casualty thing worked. I think that the Fists legion had already lost most of its strength in the heresy and the Scouring and were down to around 3-5000 marines. Dorn split into the four chapters (yes I'm including the Soul Drinkers, I know the books suck but they should still be considered.) The Imperial fists were left with almost a legion's worth of die-hards that wouldn't form a new chapter or abide by the Codex if Dorn tried to implement it so Dorn decided to give them honorable deaths by destroying his arch enemy (I refuse to believe Dorn would just throw away his men's lives and not try to destroy Perturabo.)

 

With most of the rabble-rousers gone Dorn took the years to rebuild his chapter around the Codex's teachings, he wouldn't have been rebuilding the chapter's size since he would still have had close to and maybe more than 1000 marines.

[malika666]

But yeah, I always wondered how that casualty thing worked. I think that the Fists legion had already lost most of its strength in the heresy and the Scouring and were down to around 3-5000 marines.

Didn't the Iron Cage Incident take place during the Scouring?

 

Where there only Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors involved? Or also Traitor/Imperial Army element and Titans?

[Raven Angel]

The way I always saw it was like this. First Dorn took it as a major stain on his honnor and the honnor of his Legion when the Emperor was wounded battleing Horus. Second it would appear that this had a negative effect on his stratiegic leadership scince after that incident Guilliman step to the fore and assums overall command.durring most of the scouring Guilliman begin laying the ground work for the breaking of the legions which Dorn is dead set against. He finds this further insulting that anyone would think he and his men can't be trusted. Then the incident where an Imperial Fist strike cruiser is fired on at Terra happens and Dorn discovers in his mind that it is absolutly true. People are so scard of another HH that they want the Legions broken. Looking at his men He finds he has 3 kinds present. Thoughs who don't mind being divided(became Crimson Fist), thoughs who mind but are desperate to redeeme their honnor in the eyes of the people and the Emperor(became Black Templars) and the old gaurd which comprises alot of Terrans who feel like Dorn and are not sure they can live in or with this new order that Guilliman is building. After 7 days of "meaditation" Dorn decides to enter the Iron Cage. Now personally I think at this point Dorn was going off to die. I think he saw everything that was changing and all that had happened and believed they were mounting failures that rested on his shoulders and could no longer live with it. Dorn was no idot in warfare. His record mostly bares that out, but he ignored all common sence and good advice and entered what he knew was a trap laid just for him and his men refusing all aid. Each man that went there went seeking death determined to take as many Iron Warriors with them as they could. Thats exactly what would have happend too had Guilliman not needed Dorn and his men alive and gon and pulled his but out of the fire. As for the 20 years I think it was as much for healing the phycological wounds as for the physical and the replacement of equipment. As powerful and revered as the Primearchs are they where still human and in many ways subject to the same human frailties we are.

[dustermaker]

More like the charge at the end of the Last Samurai, minus Tom Cruise's Cruise-ness.

 

This is exactly how I pictured it.

[Askari]

I guess Guilliman would be Tom Cruise in this case.

[Walter Payton]

I always thought it was about Dorn seeking to redeem himself for his (perceived) failure to defend the Emperor. So he decided to pick the hardest, most suicidal fight that he feasibly could to expunge the stain on his honour and kick some ass at the same time.

[Badhaggis]

I'm not sure if the chapter was split before or after the iron cage. also Dorn believed everyone blamed him for the emperors near death( rightly so he thought).

 

I don't think Dorn wanted the vets to die, they would have needed every man after the heresy. i think he thought along the lines of purging through battle but not killing his entire legion.

 

Plus it was an almost complete victory for the iron warriors, hooray!

[Capt. Lysander]

I always thought it was about Dorn seeking to redeem himself for his (perceived) failure to defend the Emperor. So he decided to pick the hardest, most suicidal fight that he feasibly could to expunge the stain on his honour and kick some ass at the same time.

 

Almost exactly what he said ;)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

My opinion:

 

Dorn, something of a fan of self-flagelation (SP?), was taunted into attacking the IW and the Iron cage. Part of it was his own pride and the rivalry of the IF and IW Legions, but another perhaps larger part was the fact that he saw himself as a failure.

 

And it was only after Robute was forced to "rescue" Dorn and the Fists that the Legion was split and te part that remain the Imperial Fist became Codex-adherent.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Siege of Emperor's palace.

 

Dorn dresses in black and goes after the Traitors, leveling fortress after fortress.

 

Roboute holds the Imperium together as enemies see their chance to strike.

Macragge goes into overdrive and the UM account for half of the Space Marines.

 

10 years of total war. Roboutes philosophies permeate other Legions due to the coordinated efforts of the Legions.

The Codex was taking shape.

 

Roboute lays down the Codex, with the backing of the self-appointed High Lords of Terra.

 

Dorn is shaken, his quest for atonement had blinded him to the coming Codex.

Dorn cannot understand why humanity does not trust him.

 

Perturabo builds a formidable fortress on Sebastus IV - "The Eternal Fortress". It is a clear challenge to the IF.

 

Dorn enters the pain glove for seven days.

Dorn decrees the IF will symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge as a Chapter.

Though the UM are eager to be split into Chapters, the IF did not wish to do so.

 

*So EITHER the IF, BT & CF have already been split and only the die-hards fight the IW OR the whole Legion goes to fight the IW, and the casualties will trim them down to neat Chapter sizes.

It doesn't make sense that Dorn would want his whole Legion to be trimmed down to Chapter size. 2K+ dead?

"We have to keep fightin' til only 1K are left, don't stop yet, boys!"

But, in what I think is a potential GW loop-hole, so what if the the IF suffer casualties? - they'll still have the gene-seed to make too many Marines for the neat Chapter size once the dead are harvested.

Did Dorn intend to have the new recruits made into a fresh Chapter, which means that the "Old blokes" wouldn't have had to suffer the shame of not being IFs any more. He still keeps the numbers but lets the proud enjoy a heroes death?

 

The last paragraph of The Iron Cage makes it look like it was the IF Chapter and extra guys who fought the IWs.

There is already an exploitable division between the Zealous - BT, the Fresh - CF and the Old - IF. It is just that their is more Old and Dorn knows they would rather die than not be IFs.

But Dorn still would have the extra stuff to make new marines at the end of it....

 

Dorn and the die-hards attack "The Eternal Fortress"

 

Dorn has a clear head. Perturabo was a master of fortification but Dorn was always his match. Dorn was :P that even though Horus was dead and the Emperor lived, that the IW would dare act in defiance ~ they were the losers and yet still cheeky enough to moon the IF.

Dorn doesn't plan but launches the attack on the fortress.

Even though the IW had 2 advantages - Dorn not planning and the master Perturabo building the fortress and his IW manning the defences, Dorn fights Perturabo to a stand still.

The IW could not finish them.

Guilliman intervenes and drives the IW off. Not rescues, ends the fight.

Perturabo gets the gene-seed necessary for him to ascend to becoming a Daemon-Prince.

 

*So the "Eternal Fortress" shows that the two Legions were a match, and that the Primarchs were a match.

Rogal manages a draw when he should have been eradicated.

Perturabo should have won but gets the gene-seed and is now a happy little Vegemite on Medrengard.

If it was only the IF Chapter + extras that fought the IW Legion, it says two things; the IW accounts become more believable as they conflict with the IF ones, and had the whole IF legion fought, the IW would have lost.

Dorn and the IF Chapter take 20 years off, the CF & BT taking the field in their stead.

Dorn and the IF become the 2nd most adherent Codex Chapter.

Dorn and the IF re-made good relations with humanity by being amenable to calls for aid.

Dorn dies during a Chaos Black Crusade.

 

Roboute fights for another century, until meeting the EC & Fulgrim on Thessala.

Roboute is slain (or so it seems ;) ) and is placed in a Stasis field.

[Badhaggis]

oops didn't see his :P oh and in the end petrubo was right. the iron warriors / imperial fists rivialry started as dorn said the Terra could be held against anything but petrubo was the one who brought it tumbling down and he was essentially the only primarch who was able to stop his legion from breaking apart.

 

strang thing is that in fluff terms the black legion is ment to be the smallest legion and i assume (as they didnt suffer heavy loses at any engagement just after the herasy the iron warriors must be close to being the largest pure(as in they don't have any war bands from other legions surving them) legion.)

[Legatus]

*So EITHER the IF, BT & CF have already been split and only the die-hards fight the IW OR the whole Legion goes to fight the IW, and the casualties will trim them down to neat Chapter sizes.

It doesn't make sense that Dorn would want his whole Legion to be trimmed down to Chapter size. 2K+ dead?

That sounds exactly like what Dorn wanted to achieve. "The Legion symbolically enters the pain glove and emerges as a Chapter". Plus the Iron Warriors account flat out states that "The Imperial Fists countered precipitately with Thunderhawk-borne troops attacking the silos and a full combat drop of the rest of the Legion."

 

And you probably shouldn't dismiss the entire Iron Warriors account. Indeed, it tells pretty much the same progress of battle as the Imperial Fists account does:

 

"The Iperial Fists Attack the Iron Cage. Fighting is heavy, and the Imperial Fists should be at a big disadvantage, but despite that are not overwhelmed."

 

The Iron Warriors account is just aware of one more pice of information the Imperial Fists account is not: The motivation and intention of the Iron Warriors. And without that information, the conclusion the Imperial Fists account gives is obvious: The Imperial Fists and Dorn himself fought so valiantly that the Iron Warriors could not overwhelm them.

But the Iron Warriors account has one more piece of information, and thus comes to a different conclusion: They did not intend to overwhelm the Imperial Fists. They wanted to pick them apart slowly, bit by bit.

If you interprete the differing conclusions that way, the accounts are both true and acurate. Standstill even though the Iron Warriors should have been at a considerable advantage. The accounts are just viewed from two different perspectives, knowing different things about the participants intentions.

 

 

Edit: Similarly, as the Imperial Fists account is not aware that it was the Iron Warriors intention all along to slowly grind them down, and not to overwhelm and quickly finish them, the way the Iron Warriors account describes Dorns inconsiderate attack might be due to this account in turn not being aware of Dorns intention to trim down his own Legion. Though the Iron Warriors account is much more detailed in general, and has a lot of information from the Imperial side as well.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Edit: Similarly, as the Imperial Fists account is not aware that it was the Iron Warriors intention all along to slowly grind them down, and not to overwhelm and quickly finish them, the way the Iron Warriors account describes Dorns inconsiderate attack might be due to this account in turn not being aware of Dorns intention to trim down his own Legion. Though the Iron Warriors account is much more detailed in general, and has a lot of information from the Imperial side as well.

 

I don't know what you mean by "inconsiderate" attack. Ill considered?

 

Legatus.... we meet again *flute plays a Western classic confrontation, as two cowboys face off in the street* :lol:

 

I have been doing some digging.

 

I am not saying you are wrong ~ indeed it could be me who is, and I have just put yellow-tinted glasses on to read the story how I want it.... ;)

 

So I'll give you how I have seen the events, as written.

 

When it says enter as a Legion and emerge as a Chapter, that does not read to me that the Full Legion went in. The Imperial Fists (1000+"500" strong) went in with the IF Legion mind-set (point of view, paradigm, way of thinking) and would emerge with the Codex: Astartes mind-set.

In a way it was a last hurrah for the staunchest of Imperial Fists and a send off for the old way of doing things. After the Iron Cage, there old ways would be laid down and the Codex:Astartes way would be embraced.

Of course, they won't think with a Codex:Astartes mindset just because of one battle, but they were laying down their old ways and picking up the new. That is the symbolism part, not "symbolically entering the pain glove" but "symbolically, entering the pain glove, changing from Legion to Chapter"

There is no symbolism in 2 of 3 thousand guys dying.

Dorn doesn't have to make out that a battle is like "symbolically entering the pain glove". Each and every battle is hellish ~ even Marines die. He doesn't have to say "this particular battle is symbolically entering the pain glove, because it will be hard". The purification and redemption comes from changing mind-set from Legion (bad in the eyes of the High Lords of Terra) to Chapter (good).

 

"Dorn knew that many of his brothers did not wish to found Chapters. There would be far too many left for one of the new thousand strong chapters."

*Far too many is not 2000. That is two full Chapters, which is a clear division point. Far too many is (for arguments sake) is 500.

 

"There would be far too many left for one of the three new thousand strong chapters.

Because they have already been broken down into recently initiated and level headed CF, zealous BT and die-hard followers IF.

 

The language used to describe those who participated in the Iron Cage ~ "he led these die-hards against the IW in their lair" in IA IF matches with the language of IA CF piece to describe those in the IF Chapter ~ "he divided his legion into three chapters: the die-hard followers of the Primarch retaining the livery and title of the IF"

 

On the splitting from Legion to Chapters, IA CF says Terrible Angel gets fired upon, Dorn relents and splits his legion into three.

It doesn't say; Terrible Angel, Dorn relents, Iron Cage (tries to kill 2 of his 3 thousand men), and (is forced to) splits his legion into three (because he never managed to have them killed).

 

It nevers says in the IA pieces, 'After Guilliman interfered with Dorns pogrom, Dorn was flummoxed and re-entered the pain-glove. Though not as satisfactory as having them all murdered, Dorn realises that those pesky-nuisance survivors could be placed into 2 Chapters. " :cuss :cuss :cuss " cried Dorn, it's not what I wanted but it'll have to do"....'

 

BT and CF sources never mention the Iron Cage. I think this is because it happened to the IF Chapter. If it had happened to the IF survivors who became BT or CF, then that would have been mentioned, IMO.

"Following what happened in the Iron Cage incident, Alexis Polus this.... or.... Sigismund that"

 

The 1000 who became CF was an apparent split already, there was no need for Dorn to cull them off, because the "recently initiated and level-headed" could not be "die-hards who didn't wish to found new Chapters" ~ fresh initiates are not die-hards. So that makes 2 Chapters already ~ IF and CF. That lends legitimacy to the 1000 who became BT to already be split off too.

 

After the Iron Cage, the IF Chapter goes into a 20 year retreat. The CF and BT Chapters fight in their stead.

So if those 3000 Marines had all fought in the Iron Cage and lived, why was it that those who happened to remain IF were either supremely traumatised or very slow on the uptake, whilst those who become CF and BT are not traumatised and quick on the uptake.

That doesn't make sense.

What makes sense is that those who became BT and CF were never there, otherwise they would have been equally traumatised and slow on the uptake.

Unless Dorn is lesser than Sigismund or Alexis Polux....

 

Part of the reason I think to dismiss the IW account is A] because it differs quite significantly from the Imperial account B] It could be seen as Chaos propaganda to besmirch to good name of Dorn and C] the IW believe that the Emperor used them and let more favoured Primarchs take all the glory and D] that Rogal Dorn turned Olympia against them.

 

You can see that C and D are written from a resentful Perturabo perspective (I'm not saying he wrote it but that it was written with his point of view in mind) - he slanders the Emperor and makes up a something about Dorn that just isn't supported by any other fluff. :P

 

Looking through the IA articles, I have only seen in the IW piece that Dorn E] has well-attested vanity & had this effect on many people, and F] is arrogant (enough to take on Perturabo without Guillimans help).

 

What other IA articles are there that speak of Dorn in such a way? If there aren't (I have looked and didn't find them ~ that doesn't mean they don't exist) it looks suspicious to me.

 

IA IF paints Dorn in a good light (of course, it's his party) IA IW makes him out to be a jerk (which I think is because of Perturabo's resentment and the piece is written to reflect that) Other IA pieces speak very well of Dorn. So which is the odd one out? IA Iron Warriors!

In the IA for CF and BT, it never mentions "As a result of Dorn not being able to have his Legion massacred, he splits them into these Chapters"

 

IA IF "After the Heresy, the IF were fiercer in approach. With their adoption of the Codex, this was less evident. Some had departed to become BT. Some had departed to become CF. After the carnage of the Iron Cage, what remained was a hardened, veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex"

So the order is IF become more fierce. Some become BT or CF. IF 1000, after losing "500" in the Iron Cage, remnant was a hardened, veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex.

It is talking about the Chapter and not the Legion ~ the BT never embrace the concepts of the Codex and so stating that the Iron Cage had prepared them to take on the Codex when they haven't, doesn't make sense.

[Legatus]

"Dorn knew that many of his brothers did not wish to found Chapters. There would be far too many left for one of the new thousand strong chapters."

*Far too many is not 2000. That is two full Chapters, which is a clear division point. Far too many is (for arguments sake) is 500.

But initially Dorn did not want to split off any members of the Legion at all, so one might assume that it was indeed his intention to trim down the Imperial Fists Legion enough so that it would only be enough Marines for exactly one Legion, so that no one would have to be sent off to fight apart from the "Imperial Fists" Chapter and Dorn as their Primarch. Even if the Imperial Fists would have been around 3000 men, it could have been his intention to lose 2000 so it would only be enough for one Chapter.

 

 

On the splitting from Legion to Chapters, IA CF says Terrible Angel gets fired upon, Dorn relents and splits his legion into three.

It doesn't say; Terrible Angel, Dorn relents, Iron Cage (tries to kill 2 of his 3 thousand men), and (is forced to) splits his legion into three (because he never managed to have them killed).

 

(...)

 

BT and CF sources never mention the Iron Cage. I think this is because it happened to the IF Chapter. If it had happened to the IF survivors who became BT or CF, then that would have been mentioned, IMO.

"Following what happened in the Iron Cage incident, Alexis Polus this.... or.... Sigismund that"

I don't think the CF and BT Index Astartes articles would have to include the description of the battle in the Iron Cage. The Black Templars article merely states that Dorn relented and agreed to split his Legion. It does not go into detail at all about how Dorn resisted the pain glove for seven days or how he finally had a vision of the Emperor, or that there was perhaps one final battle as a Legion before it was officially split. It merely summarizes that he agreed to divide the Legion.

 

 

Part of the reason I think to dismiss the IW account is A] because it differs quite significantly from the Imperial account

In what aspect does the account differ? Apart from the fact that the Imperial Fists account is a mere single paragraph with only a very broad overview while the Iron Warriors account is a much more detailed description with 7+ paragraphs and detailed battle manouvers and combat situations?

 

This is the Index Astartes Imperial Fists material about the battle in it's entirety. The first half of the paragraph is preface about how Dorn was tempted by Perturabo:

 

"Without his customary caution and planning, Dorn led his men into the heart of the Iron Warrior defences. The battle should have favoured the treacherous trench-fighters, but the Imperial Fists endured. They countered every ambush and fought their way out of every trap. Rogal Dorn was a colossus who personally turned back attack after attack. Ammunition expended, Brothers fought in half flooded trenches with combat knives, giving and expecting no quarter. Eventually it became apparent that the Iron Warriors could not finish them. For all their skill and ferocity, the Iron Warriors lacked the faith to make the ultimate sacrifice that victory demanded. While they paused, the Ultramarines intervened;"

 

Compare that to some excerpts from the Iron Warriors account:

 

"The Imperial Fists countered precipitately with Thunderhawk-borne troops attacking the silos and a full combat drop of the rest of the Legion. (...) Under fire from space, the Imperial Fists proceeded with their assault in parade ground formation on a four-company front."

(This coincides with the IF account of Dorn attacking without his usual carefull planning.)

 

"So it continued - Perturabo dissected the Imperial Fists tank by tank, squad by squad. Rogal Dorn remained convinced that victory was in sight and pushed his men on. Perturabo pulled back some of his defenders and called upon others to hold - a stratagem that fractured the Imperial Fists, first into companies, then into squads. By day six of the battle, each Marine fought virtually alone, and Dorn's troops were reduced to burrowing into the mud and piling up dead bodies of their brethren for cover. Still Perturabo remained patient (...)

If Perturabo had a failing it was that he had grown to enjoy tormenting his enemies too much. He could have finished off the Imperial Fists at any time but chose not to. Fortunately for Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman put the Imperium before pride and had brought the Ultramarines to the Rescue."

(This coincides with the IF account of the very heavy and grim fighting that should have seen the Iron Warriors at an advantage and making a lot of progress against the Imperial Fists, but they did not achieve any decisive strikes.)

 

Where the two accounts differ I have colored the passages red. The Imperial Fists account explains the lack of decisive victories on the side of the Iron Warriors with the fighting spirit and determination of the Imperial Fists. The Iron Warriors account describes their lack of decisive victories with that it had not been Perturabos intention to quickly defeat and destroy them. It is the same story, told from different points of view.

 

 

C] the IW believe that the Emperor used them and let more favoured Primarchs take all the glory and D] that Rogal Dorn turned Olympia against them.

 

You can see that C and D are written from a resentful Perturabo perspective (I'm not saying he wrote it but that it was written with his point of view in mind) - he slanders the Emperor and makes up a something about Dorn that just isn't supported by any other fluff.

The Index Astartes Iron Warriors does state the possibility that it was Horus who manipulated Perturabo in different paragraphs, so there seems to be at least some omniscient objectivity to the overall Index Astartes article. The same is not necessarily true for a "historical account" presented in the article, but the account of the Iron Cage does make several comments about the actions of loyalist personell that the Iron Warriors perhaps would not have had, such as Guilliman trying to reason with Dorn before the battle.

 

 

Looking through the IA articles, I have only seen in the IW piece that Dorn E] has well-attested vanity & had this effect on many people, and F] is arrogant (enough to take on Perturabo without Guillimans help).

 

What other IA articles are there that speak of Dorn in such a way? If there aren't (I have looked and didn't find them ~ that doesn't mean they don't exist) it looks suspicious to me.

 

IA IF paints Dorn in a good light (of course, it's his party) IA IW makes him out to be a jerk (which I think is because of Perturabo's resentment and the piece is written to reflect that) Other IA pieces speak very well of Dorn. So which is the odd one out? IA Iron Warriors!

Dorn does come accross as a bit stubborn or hot headed in some sources. Those qualities can go hand in hand with arrogance or vanity regarding ones own abilities.

 

Index Astartes Imperial Fists ("Combat Doctrine"):

"Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk."

 

Index Astartes Black Templars:

"Dorn called Guilliman a coward, for his Legion had not participated in the defence of the Imperial Palace"

Regardless of what one might think of Guillimans conduct in that discussion, certainly one can agree that this was an unfounded accusation on Dorns part.

 

Dorn never thought he was of higher status or more deserving than any of his brother Primarchs, but he was probably quite certain of his own abilities.

 

 

In the IA for CF and BT, it never mentions "As a result of Dorn not being able to have his Legion massacred, he splits them into these Chapters"

Ah, but the IA IF does mention that the Ultramarines intervened. :cuss If not, Dorn would have stayed in the Iron Cage much longer, and would have lost more men. So, since the battle was ended prematurely, what happened with the excess marines Dorn would then have had? He should not have had more than 1000 left according to his own intention. If he had dropped to 1000, he could have ended the Iron Cage encounter by himself, and it would not have been up to the Ultramarines to end it "prematurely".

 

But if the Imperial Fists where around 3000 when they went into the Iron Cage, Dorn might have intended to lose 2000 men and emerge with the 1000 he needed for one Chapter. He lost over 400 men before Guilliman intervened, according to the Index Astartes Iron Warriors, which was earlier than Dorn had wanted. So he ended up with enough men for two full Chapters, the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists, who immediately went out on active duty, and a rest of over 500 in order to build a Codex adherent Imperial Fists Chapter over the next 20 years.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

"Dorn knew that many of his brothers did not wish to found Chapters. There would be far too many left for one of the new thousand strong chapters."

*Far too many is not 2000. That is two full Chapters, which is a clear division point. Far too many is (for arguments sake) is 500.

But initially Dorn did not want to split off any members of the Legion at all, so one might assume that it was indeed his intention to trim down the Imperial Fists Legion enough so that it would only be enough Marines for exactly one Legion, so that no one would have to be sent off to fight apart from the "Imperial Fists" Chapter and Dorn as their Primarch. Even if the Imperial Fists would have been around 3000 men, it could have been his intention to lose 2000 so it would only be enough for one Chapter.

 

*Dorn did not want to split his Legion. I think that him preferring to cull 2000 of his men rather than having them in Chapters is a leap, though.

IA BT says ".... Dorn relented. He agreed to the formation of two new Chapters from his Legion.

It doesn't say "Dorn relented. He tried to have 2 Chapters worth of Marines killed. But failed. So, taking the next best option, he agreed to the formation of two new Chapters from his legion"

IA CF says, after the Terrible Angel incident, ".... he divided his Legion into three Chapters".

It does not say "He tried to have 2 Chapters worth of Marines killed. But failed. So, taking the next best option, he divided his Legion into three Chapters".

 

On the splitting from Legion to Chapters, IA CF says Terrible Angel gets fired upon, Dorn relents and splits his legion into three.

It doesn't say; Terrible Angel, Dorn relents, Iron Cage (tries to kill 2 of his 3 thousand men), and (is forced to) splits his legion into three (because he never managed to have them killed).

 

(...)

 

BT and CF sources never mention the Iron Cage. I think this is because it happened to the IF Chapter. If it had happened to the IF survivors who became BT or CF, then that would have been mentioned, IMO.

"Following what happened in the Iron Cage incident, Alexis Polus this.... or.... Sigismund that"

I don't think the CF and BT Index Astartes articles would have to include the description of the battle in the Iron Cage. The Black Templars article merely states that Dorn relented and agreed to split his Legion. It does not go into detail at all about how Dorn resisted the pain glove for seven days or how he finally had a vision of the Emperor, or that there was perhaps one final battle as a Legion before it was officially split. It merely summarizes that he agreed to divide the Legion.

 

*It merely states it because, IMO, they were never there. Dorn enduring the pain glove or having a vision from the Emperor isn't that relevant for a Chapter, it is an aside for us to see why Dorn changed his stance from no to yes. The to be CF or BT coming through the Iron Cage is significant - it seems to be the largest post-Heresy battle other than a Black Crusade. You'd think it would get a mention for such a battle.... :huh:

 

Part of the reason I think to dismiss the IW account is A] because it differs quite significantly from the Imperial account

In what aspect does the account differ? Apart from the fact that the Imperial Fists account is a mere single paragraph with only a very broad overview while the Iron Warriors account is a much more detailed description with 7+ paragraphs and detailed battle manouvers and combat situations?

 

This is the Index Astartes Imperial Fists material about the battle in it's entirety. The first half of the paragraph is preface about how Dorn was tempted by Perturabo:

 

"Without his customary caution and planning, Dorn led his men into the heart of the Iron Warrior defences. The battle should have favoured the treacherous trench-fighters, but the Imperial Fists endured. They countered every ambush and fought their way out of every trap. Rogal Dorn was a colossus who personally turned back attack after attack. Ammunition expended, Brothers fought in half flooded trenches with combat knives, giving and expecting no quarter. Eventually it became apparent that the Iron Warriors could not finish them. For all their skill and ferocity, the Iron Warriors lacked the faith to make the ultimate sacrifice that victory demanded. While they paused, the Ultramarines intervened;"

 

Compare that to some excerpts from the Iron Warriors account:

 

"The Imperial Fists countered precipitately with Thunderhawk-borne troops attacking the silos and a full combat drop of the rest of the Legion. (...) Under fire from space, the Imperial Fists proceeded with their assault in parade ground formation on a four-company front."

(This coincides with the IF account of Dorn attacking without his usual carefull planning.)

 

"So it continued - Perturabo dissected the Imperial Fists tank by tank, squad by squad. Rogal Dorn remained convinced that victory was in sight and pushed his men on. Perturabo pulled back some of his defenders and called upon others to hold - a stratagem that fractured the Imperial Fists, first into companies, then into squads. By day six of the battle, each Marine fought virtually alone, and Dorn's troops were reduced to burrowing into the mud and piling up dead bodies of their brethren for cover. Still Perturabo remained patient (...)

If Perturabo had a failing it was that he had grown to enjoy tormenting his enemies too much. He could have finished off the Imperial Fists at any time but chose not to. Fortunately for Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman put the Imperium before pride and had brought the Ultramarines to the Rescue."

(This coincides with the IF account of the very heavy and grim fighting that should have seen the Iron Warriors at an advantage and making a lot of progress against the Imperial Fists, but they did not achieve any decisive strikes.)

 

Where the two accounts differ I have colored the passages red. The Imperial Fists account explains the lack of decisive victories on the side of the Iron Warriors with the fighting spirit and determination of the Imperial Fists. The Iron Warriors account describes their lack of decisive victories with that it had not been Perturabos intention to quickly defeat and destroy them. It is the same story, told from different points of view.

 

*The IA account of the Iron Cage for Honest Dorn, who never lied even to a fault, is a tale of the Fists outlasting the situationally-favoured Warriors. If the knock-down drag-out fight from the Warriors account is true, then the Fists account is a piece of propaganda to add polish and varnish to the Fists roll of honour.

The Warriors account tells of the Fists getting seven shades of daylight knocked out of them. The Fists give no witness of that.

That is what I am saying is the differ-ing between the two.

There is no shame on the Fists for being hammered by the Warriors, the circumstances clearly favoured them. But the Honest Fists account never tells of such a hammering. It does say the Warriors COULD not finish the Fists not WOULD not finish the Fists. It doesn't say "From the Fists viewpoint, the Warriors could not finish them"

 

 

C] the IW believe that the Emperor used them and let more favoured Primarchs take all the glory and D] that Rogal Dorn turned Olympia against them.

 

You can see that C and D are written from a resentful Perturabo perspective (I'm not saying he wrote it but that it was written with his point of view in mind) - he slanders the Emperor and makes up a something about Dorn that just isn't supported by any other fluff.

The Index Astartes Iron Warriors does state the possibility that it was Horus who manipulated Perturabo in different paragraphs, so there seems to be at least some omniscient objectivity to the overall Index Astartes article. The same is not necessarily true for a "historical account" presented in the article, but the account of the Iron Cage does make several comments about the actions of loyalist personell that the Iron Warriors perhaps would not have had, such as Guilliman trying to reason with Dorn before the battle.

 

 

Looking through the IA articles, I have only seen in the IW piece that Dorn E] has well-attested vanity & had this effect on many people, and F] is arrogant (enough to take on Perturabo without Guillimans help).

 

What other IA articles are there that speak of Dorn in such a way? If there aren't (I have looked and didn't find them ~ that doesn't mean they don't exist) it looks suspicious to me.

 

IA IF paints Dorn in a good light (of course, it's his party) IA IW makes him out to be a jerk (which I think is because of Perturabo's resentment and the piece is written to reflect that) Other IA pieces speak very well of Dorn. So which is the odd one out? IA Iron Warriors!

Dorn does come accross as a bit stubborn or hot headed in some sources. Those qualities can go hand in hand with arrogance or vanity regarding ones own abilities.

 

Index Astartes Imperial Fists ("Combat Doctrine"):

"Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk."

 

Index Astartes Black Templars:

"Dorn called Guilliman a coward, for his Legion had not participated in the defence of the Imperial Palace"

Regardless of what one might think of Guillimans conduct in that discussion, certainly one can agree that this was an unfounded accusation on Dorns part.

 

Dorn never thought he was of higher status or more deserving than any of his brother Primarchs, but he was probably quite certain of his own abilities.

 

*a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to the risk = I don't like it that we might not be able to win and so we'll press on until victory happens.

This is very different from "well-attested vanity", "having this effect on people" and "being arrogant".

 

Dorn calls Guilliman a coward because Guilliman (with the backing of the self-appointed High Lords of Terra) lays down the law about Legions needing to be broken into Chapters.

Dorn is not calling him a coward because he wasn't there. Guilliman can only travel X amount of distance in X amount of time. Dorn calls him a coward because Guilliman wasn't there and yet believes that his opinion on Chapters is fact.

 

To illustrate, imagine this scenario. A second-lieutenant is in the trenches of WW1. After a battle in which the second-lieutenant performs with valour, some high-up Major-General from 10 miles behind the line lays down the law and ignores the 2nd-Lts efforts and says from now on you need to fight this way. "Excuse me, sir, how dare you call my integrity into question. I was there and I fought my backside off. You have the audacity to question my loyalty, inspite of my valour and steadfastness being proven in word and deed? You COWARD!"

 

Dorn wasn't questioning Guillimans martial prowess (Guilliman was in the top 5, and his bravery would be a fact to Dorn) and calling him a Coward because of a logistical reality is silly.

Dorn calls Guilliman a coward for his audacity to question Dorn's integrity inspite of facts.

Who on earth are the High Lords of Terra (I know they are powerful and perhaps a worthy Council) to question Dorn? Dorn has fought his backside of and these self-important blow ins dare question his loyalty.

Does it really seem arrogant, hot-headed or vane to say back-off in light of his efforts and then they cast dispersions on him??

Your're joking right? Dorn, Jaghatai and Sanguinius are 100% loyal heroes whose integrity is beyond question.

 

In the IA for CF and BT, it never mentions "As a result of Dorn not being able to have his Legion massacred, he splits them into these Chapters"

Ah, but the IA IF does mention that the Ultramarines intervened. ;) If not, Dorn would have stayed in the Iron Cage much longer, and would have lost more men. So, since the battle was ended prematurely, what happened with the excess marines Dorn would then have had? He should not have had more than 1000 left according to his own intention. If he had dropped to 1000, he could have ended the Iron Cage encounter by himself, and it would not have been up to the Ultramarines to end it "prematurely".

 

Scenario 1 (the 3400) Dorn loses 400. Guilliman intervenes. You are saying that Dorn would have kept going until 2000 more die. Then at 1000 Dorn bails out.

Scenario 2 (the 1400) Dorn loses 400. Guilliman intervenes. Who's to say when Dorn would have pulled out? Maybe soon Dorn would have relented. Maybe Dorn would have been happy to have them drop to 800 or even 200 ~ who is to say when?

*You are assuming that without Guilliman's intervention, Dorn would fight to some number 2000 lower than he would have if Guilliman had not intervened (Scenario 1). Guilliman has no idea of when Dorn's magic number would come or even that Dorn had a magic number at all. Guilliman sees Dorn in a seeming fight to the death with Perturabo and (based on his point of view) stops the fight. Guilliman does not see the whole of the picture. We don't get to find out what Dorn would have done.

Similarly, if Dorn was so desperate to kill of 2000 more Marines, why would he have stopped just because Guilliman turned up?

'"Back off Roboute" commands Dorn, leading his men on to the Iron Warriors guns'. I think that would have been a probable line. We never hear it.

Why does Dorn suddenly change his mind? "Hmmm, killing my men is much harder and more distressing than I thought, ummmm, I think I've changed my mind"

Dorn doesn't flip-flop and change his decisions :down: .

 

But if the Imperial Fists where around 3000 when they went into the Iron Cage, Dorn might have intended to lose 2000 men and emerge with the 1000 he needed for one Chapter. He lost over 400 men before Guilliman intervened, according to the Index Astartes Iron Warriors, which was earlier than Dorn had wanted. So he ended up with enough men for two full Chapters, the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists, who immediately went out on active duty, and a rest of over 500 in order to build a Codex adherent Imperial Fists Chapter over the next 20 years.

 

*It doesn't make sense that, as I mentioned last post, that of the 3000 that survived the Iron Cage, those who wore Yellow were traumatised and slow learners, whilst those lead by Alexis Polux had soothing Blue armour and those lead by Sigismund had calming Black armour. Luckily, Polux and Sigismund had attended Horus's "How to make friends and influence people" classes, and out-shining the inept Dorn. If only Dorn had signed up for the classes.... :rolleyes:

[Grand Master Tyrak]

But initially Dorn did not want to split off any members of the Legion at all, so one might assume that it was indeed his intention to trim down the Imperial Fists Legion enough so that it would only be enough Marines for exactly one Legion, so that no one would have to be sent off to fight apart from the "Imperial Fists" Chapter and Dorn as their Primarch. Even if the Imperial Fists would have been around 3000 men, it could have been his intention to lose 2000 so it would only be enough for one Chapter.

 

I think part of that was that those who were to be 'culled' did not want to be split off from the Legion either. It's not really the case that Dorn just decided that he should kill off a good number of those under his command.

 

To illustrate, imagine this scenario. A second-lieutenant is in the trenches of WW1. After a battle in which the second-lieutenant performs with valour, some high-up Major-General from 10 miles behind the line lays down the law and ignores the 2nd-Lts efforts and says from now on you need to fight this way. "Excuse me, sir, how dare you call my integrity into question. I was there and I fought my backside off. You have the audacity to question my loyalty, inspite of my valour and steadfastness being proven in word and deed? You COWARD!"

 

To refine that further, the '"high-up Major General" should be replaced by another 2nd Lt who happens to be the favourite of a high-up Major-General. Guilliman had no rank advantage over Dorn, he just had the considerable weight and influence of the newly-formed High Lords behind him.

[Legatus]

*It merely states it because, IMO, they were never there. Dorn enduring the pain glove or having a vision from the Emperor isn't that relevant for a Chapter, it is an aside for us to see why Dorn changed his stance from no to yes. The to be CF or BT coming through the Iron Cage is significant - it seems to be the largest post-Heresy battle other than a Black Crusade. You'd think it would get a mention for such a battle....

Why should thet battle have been mentioned for the Black templars? Supposedly the 2nd Founding members had fought during the Great Crusade and during the Heresy in countless wars as part of the Imperial Fists Legion. Why would their last battle as part of the Legion have to be specifically mentioned?

The Black Templars article describes briefly that there was a dispute over the Imperial Fist's division into Chapters, and that Dorn finally agreed to split the Legion after all. It does not go into detail about the process. That it was not simply a quick decision a la "Ok, we split, so off you go BTs and CFs" but instead a more complex process with some additional problems due to Dorns persona is described in the Index Astartes of the Imperial Fists, since that is where the Primarch is described.

Assuming that the Black templars were present at the Iron Cage, I still would say that the fact that Dorn had relented because he had a vision of the Emperor would have been even more important than that battle. Since his vision is not mentioned in the IA BT, I don't think that the battle necessary needs to be mentioned.

 

 

*The IA account of the Iron Cage for Honest Dorn, who never lied even to a fault, is a tale of the Fists outlasting the situationally-favoured Warriors. If the knock-down drag-out fight from the Warriors account is true, then the Fists account is a piece of propaganda to add polish and varnish to the Fists roll of honour.

Every Imperial historian would have interpreted the events that way, not knowing that the Iron Warriors did not finish the Imperial Fists off on purpose.

 

 

The Warriors account tells of the Fists getting seven shades of daylight knocked out of them. The Fists give no witness of that.

That is what I am saying is the differ-ing between the two.

The Iron Warriors account describes a grim and brutal battle, where the Imperial Fists will leave with over 400 suffered casualties in the end, but it also describes that they did not finish them off. The Imperial Fists account describes the same battle and the same situation, just with a different explasnation for why they were not finished off.

 

 

*a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to the risk = I don't like it that we might not be able to win and so we'll press on until victory happens.

"blind to risk" = "we cannot possible lose!"

 

 

Dorn calls Guilliman a coward because Guilliman (with the backing of the self-appointed High Lords of Terra) lays down the law about Legions needing to be broken into Chapters.

Dorn is not calling him a coward because he wasn't there. Guilliman can only travel X amount of distance in X amount of time. Dorn calls him a coward because Guilliman wasn't there and yet believes that his opinion on Chapters is fact.

"Dorn called Guilliman a coward, for his Legion had not participated in the defence of the Imperial Palace"

 

What does that have to do with the plan to spread military power? Nothing!

 

 

Scenario 1 (the 3400) Dorn loses 400. Guilliman intervenes. You are saying that Dorn would have kept going until 2000 more die. Then at 1000 Dorn bails out.

Scenario 2 (the 1400) Dorn loses 400. Guilliman intervenes. Who's to say when Dorn would have pulled out? Maybe soon Dorn would have relented. Maybe Dorn would have been happy to have them drop to 800 or even 200 ~ who is to say when?

 

*You are assuming that without Guilliman's intervention, Dorn would fight to some number 2000 lower than he would have if Guilliman had not intervened (Scenario 1). Guilliman has no idea of when Dorn's magic number would come or even that Dorn had a magic number at all. Guilliman sees Dorn in a seeming fight to the death with Perturabo and (based on his point of view) stops the fight. Guilliman does not see the whole of the picture. We don't get to find out what Dorn would have done.

Similarly, if Dorn was so desperate to kill of 2000 more Marines, why would he have stopped just because Guilliman turned up?

'"Back off Roboute" commands Dorn, leading his men on to the Iron Warriors guns'. I think that would have been a probable line. We never hear it.

Why does Dorn suddenly change his mind? "Hmmm, killing my men is much harder and more distressing than I thought, ummmm, I think I've changed my mind"

Dorn doesn't flip-flop and change his decisions

I just find it very unlikely that Dorn would have entered with 1,400, with the goal to only emerge with enough for one more Chapter, and that at the point the Ultramarines intervened it just so happens that the Imperial Fists had lost the number of members they wanted to.

 

It is much more likely that they either

 

A: Lost fewer men than they originally intended, ending up with still more than 1000

 

B: Lost more men than they originally intended, ending up with less than 1000

 

But both those outcomes make no sense. The Imperial Fists ended up as a devoted Codex adherent Chapter, so they would not have had more than the standard 1000 men. What would they have done with the extra survivors in case of A? On the other hand, if they were already under the standard Chapter size, then they would not have needed to fight a hopeless battle.

 

If they entered with the full Legion (which the Index Astartes Iron Warriors specifically states), then the Ultramarines would have intervened prematurely and the Imperial Fists Legion would have ended up with 2,500 men. Splitting off 2000 for the Templars and the Crimson Fists would have left 500 die hards to form the Imperial Fists Chapter, and they then used the following 20 years to rebuild into a full Chapter. After all, it seems a bit odd to be off active duty for 20 years just to retrain, doesn't it?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

"blind to risk" = "we cannot possible lose!"

 

Not necessarily. Dorn could just not have cared about the risk. Ignoring the risks does not mean you automatically think you will not fall foul of them.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

*a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to the risk = I don't like it that we might not be able to win and so we'll press on until victory happens.

"blind to risk" = "we cannot possible lose!"

 

*That might be what GW means (we cannot possibly lose). I don't know.

 

a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to the risk

reluctant; unwilling and hesitant.

possibility; a thing that may happen or be the case.

sometimes; occasionally, rather than all of the time

 

hesitant;slow

possible, maybe it is or maybe it isn't

 

so the Fists are slow to accept a chance of defeat that sometimes does and sometimes doesn't blind them to the risk.

What GW has written is a weak statement. It is not an overwhelming "These guys are stupidly obstinate"

 

Dorn calls Guilliman a coward because Guilliman (with the backing of the self-appointed High Lords of Terra) lays down the law about Legions needing to be broken into Chapters.

Dorn is not calling him a coward because he wasn't there. Guilliman can only travel X amount of distance in X amount of time. Dorn calls him a coward because Guilliman wasn't there and yet believes that his opinion on Chapters is fact.

"Dorn called Guilliman a coward, for his Legion had not participated in the defence of the Imperial Palace"

 

What does that have to do with the plan to spread military power? Nothing!

 

*Dorn has fought his heart out during the Siege. Then he hunts down Traitors and destroy their strongholds. Guilliman says in order to stop a repeat of the Heresy happening, we will all have our Legions split into Chapters. To show you that I am not a hypocrite, I am too.

Dorn is angry. Why? because "Dorn has fought his heart out during the Siege. Then he hunts down Traitors and destroy their strongholds." After doing everything that a loyal son could possibly do, he gets all of his efforts and character flushed down the toilet by the Chapter decree.

A] I was loyal, even at the Siege (when it would have been a strong incentive to go with Horus) - it doesn't matter, you could betray the Emperor

B] I fought tooth and nail against the Traitors - yeah but if you rebel, it'll be easier to stop a Chapter

 

The Chapter decree basically is saying "You are untrustworthy, your record counts for nothing because for all we know you could be faking loyalty"

 

If that doesn't make most people feel like they are seen as sewerage, I would be surprised. That is "the why" Dorn calls Guilliman a coward.

Ask a loyal and loving husband to wear a location anklet and take dna swabs everytime he leaves the presence of his wife, you won't get a husband saying "You know honey, you're right. I could cheat on you any moment of the day."

 

People are not robots. Telling a loyal person they are not trustworthy will not strengthen relationships, especially after they have done so much that is loyal. An even better idea than just creating Chapters is to fit explosive collars around Marines heads. If it is tampered with, it blows up. That is a good idea, because Marines could betray the Emperor.

 

I have taken my point to a giant extreme to make a point. It is not meant to be rude.

 

 

But both those outcomes make no sense. The Imperial Fists ended up as a devoted Codex adherent Chapter, so they would not have had more than the standard 1000 men. What would they have done with the extra survivors in case of A? On the other hand, if they were already under the standard Chapter size, then they would not have needed to fight a hopeless battle. If they entered with the full Legion (which the Index Astartes Iron Warriors specifically states), then the Ultramarines would have intervened prematurely and the Imperial Fists Legion would have ended up with 2,500 men. Splitting off 2000 for the Templars and the Crimson Fists would have left 500 die hards to form the Imperial Fists Chapter, and they then used the following 20 years to rebuild into a full Chapter. After all, it seems a bit odd to be off active duty for 20 years just to retrain, doesn't it?

 

*I wasn't arguing for my A . I included it for a sense of completeness.

You have said it yourself "they ended up as". Dorn could have had many goals in his mind at once. "I want to kill Perturabo & I want to crush the Iron Fortress & I want to let these Veterans fight one last grand battle & I want to one day adhere to the Codex"

 

Dorn did want to follow the Codex but it doesn't mean it has to be his highest priority at the moment of the Iron Cage.

Remember that even if Dorn only has 200 Marines for the IF Chapter, assuming he wins, he still has all the gene-material to rebuild the Chapter. So he thinks "I'll try to kill Perturabo, that will be worth the IF being out of action, even for decades. Then we'll be a perfect Codex Chapter when we return."

 

What I think is odd is this; IF Legion fights in the Iron Cage. As soon as it's over, BT and CF spring up like new flowers to fight as if nothing happened whilst the IF do not fight for 20 years.

 

IF Chapter (my 1400 idea) makes more sense in explaining a localised demoralisation and training session specific to the IF Chapter than saying the Legion went in and only a specific one third (coincidently the Yellow ones.....) had the 20 years of re-training.

[Legatus]

so the Fists are slow to accept a chance of defeat that sometimes does and sometimes doesn't blind them to the risk.

What GW has written is a weak statement. It is not an overwhelming "These guys are stupidly obstinate"

By no means GW wanted to state that Dorn or the Imperial Fists are incompetent. Just that they have certain unfavourable tendencies. Not being willing to accept (or being ignorant of) possible weaknesses can easily be interpreted as arrogance.

 

 

If that doesn't make most people feel like they are seen as sewerage, I would be surprised. That is "the why" Dorn calls Guilliman a coward.

Ask a loyal and loving husband to wear a location anklet and take dna swabs everytime he leaves the presence of his wife, you won't get a husband saying "You know honey, you're right. I could cheat on you any moment of the day."

Guilliman's participation in the battle for Terra still has nothing to do with the issue, and Dorn bringing it up is out of place. It would be equivalent to the husband that is proposed with making dna tests then proceeding to call his wive lazy because she did not go to work at all that one week last months (and it turns out that was because she had a broken leg). Regardles of what had been proposed in the first place, the then responded accusation has nothing to do with the issue. I can understand why Dorn felt somewhat disrespected, but his response was not appropriate.

 

 

What I think is odd is this; IF Legion fights in the Iron Cage. As soon as it's over, BT and CF spring up like new flowers to fight as if nothing happened whilst the IF do not fight for 20 years.

 

IF Chapter (my 1400 idea) makes more sense in explaining a localised demoralisation and training session specific to the IF Chapter than saying the Legion went in and only a specific one third (coincidently the Yellow ones.....) had the 20 years of re-training.

It makes sense if the Black Templars and Crimson Fists both were founded with full 1000 men while there was only a small rest for the "Imperial Fists" Chapter. That means they needed the 20 years not just to adopt all the Codex Astartes doctrines (as I said, spending 20 years not fighting JUST to adopt new doctrines is a bit odd) but also to reinforce their low numbers.

 

--> IF Legion goes in with ~3000

 

--> IF lose "only" ~500 (IA: IW) because the Ultramarines intervene

 

--> BT and CF are founded with 1000 each, ~500 remain for the IF Chapter

 

--> IF spend the next 20 years rebuilding and retraining.

[IronWinds]

I'm sorry, but I can't imagine Dorn knowingly wanting his marines to die so that the numbers will match up to 1000. He is a Primarch, he can tell Guilliman to shove it and have his own chapter be 1500 if he wants.

 

I was also under the impression that he thought he could win at the Iron Cage. The Iron Cage was built to look easier than it really was. The above ground fortress was big, but not ungodly. It was the tunnel system underneath that was the true fortress that allowed the IWs to sneak in behind the Fists over and over again destroying their tanks and seige equipment. And while I don't have it to read the IWs also did things to make air support and reinforcements harder. The Iron Cage was designed to look like a fair fight, but was in truth a trap. I don't think Dorn went in knowing he was going to lose, I imagine his pride would prevent him from doing so.

 

 

Even though the IW had 2 advantages - Dorn not planning and the master Perturabo building the fortress and his IW manning the defences, Dorn fights Perturabo to a stand still.

The IW could not finish them.

Guilliman intervenes and drives the IW off. Not rescues, ends the fight.

Perturabo gets the gene-seed necessary for him to ascend to becoming a Daemon-Prince.

 

The Fists were using the corpses of their fallen comrads for cover to hide from the IWs guns. They never even came close to taking the fortress. Dorn was yelling for Perturabo to come out and fight him. I've read both versions and never thought, "Oh they came to a standstill." Given time the IWs would have finished them. Keep in mind the IWs were sitting in a fortress stocked with ammo, the Fists were sitting in trenches taking the ammo belts off their dead brothers, they had taken horrible losses not only in marines but in tanks. If the Ultramarines didn't come the Fists had no chance of winning, and unless they left they would eventually die. It was a rescue, I'm sorry.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The Fists were using the corpses of their fallen comrads for cover to hide from the IWs guns. They never even came close to taking the fortress. Dorn was yelling for Perturabo to come out and fight him. I've read both versions and never thought, "Oh they came to a standstill." Given time the IWs would have finished them. Keep in mind the IWs were sitting in a fortress stocked with ammo, the Fists were sitting in trenches taking the ammo belts off their dead brothers, they had taken horrible losses not only in marines but in tanks. If the Ultramarines didn't come the Fists had no chance of winning, and unless they left they would eventually die. It was a rescue, I'm sorry.

 

That assumes Dorn wanted to save his men and escape the Iron Cage. From what I've read about Dorn's motivations, he brought his men there to die, as there were too many of them to fit into a Chapter and he wanted to give them a chance of a glorious death for the Emperor rather than send them off in (in their eyes) disgrace. Forget a standstill, by those standards the Imperial Fists were winning.