The Iron Cage

[IronWinds]

That assumes Dorn wanted to save his men and escape the Iron Cage. From what I've read about Dorn's motivations, he brought his men there to die, as there were too many of them to fit into a Chapter and he wanted to give them a chance of a glorious death for the Emperor rather than send them off in (in their eyes) disgrace. Forget a standstill, by those standards the Imperial Fists were winning.

 

I just have a hard time seeing him doing that. Go die to the Iron Warriors guns because its better than joining another chapter..... and I don't feel like arguing with Guilliman to keep the Fists over 1000. If he cared about his men why not keep the Fists over 1000, but stop recruiting(and send the geneseed to new chapters) until they were back at 1000?

 

While it looks honourable I guess.... more so it is just increibly stupid.

 

I know people keep comparing to Last Samari, but they had no wheere else to go. The Fists did.

 

Maybe this hints at the supreme difference between IWs and Fists. An IW sees throwing marines to the meat grinder for no reason as incredibly stupid, while a Fist sees it as honourable??? I'm lost, and I just lost respect for Dorn. A great general would not throw away precious resources like that.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I just have a hard time seeing him doing that. Go die to the Iron Warriors guns because its better than joining another chapter..... and I don't feel like arguing with Guilliman to keep the Fists over 1000. If he cared about his men why not keep the Fists over 1000, but stop recruiting(and send the geneseed to new chapters) until they were back at 1000?

 

While it looks honourable I guess.... more so it is just increibly stupid

 

Is it? You've fought your way through the Horus Heresy, you've seen the Emperor nearly killed, you've seen several Primarchs killed, you've seen the Imperium reduced to ash, and now those who are conducting the rebuilding have just removed everything you ever fought for from the new Imperium. Dorn may have been guaranteed a place in the new Imperium, but his troops have not been. Rather than abandon the only ones who've stayed faithful to him (remember at this point Dorn still hasn't embraced the Codex fully, and in all likelihood is still feeling betrayed), Dorn decides to give them a chance for one last fight for the memory of the Emperor.

 

I know people keep comparing to Last Samari, but they had no wheere else to go. The Fists did.

 

So did the Satsuma rebels (the historical basis for the film). But, like the film characters, they don't have anything to live for any more. It would be like trying to convince Dorn on the eve of the Siege of Terra to abandon the Emperor and regroup with the other Loyalist Legions. It makes more military sense, as together they'd stand a better chance against the Traitors, but they'd have nothing to fight for any more. Dorn's Emperor has gone, and it's not until later that he and the Imperial Fists accept that the Emperor is still watching over them. Viewed from Dorn's perspective at the time, they might as well have lost the Siege of Terra. Yes, they won the battle, but with everything they fought for gone they feel like they've lost the war in the process.

 

Maybe this hints at the supreme difference between IWs and Fists. An IW sees throwing marines to the meat grinder for no reason as incredibly stupid, while a Fist sees it as honourable??? I'm lost, and I just lost respect for Dorn. A great general would not throw away precious resources like that.

 

A great general doesn't treat his troops as resources. They're not his soldiers or his subordinates, they're as much his brothers as the other Primarchs. "For he who today sheds his blood with me shall be my brother"? They're not just numbers and figures that he's going to send away at will. If Guilliman has decreed that they've got no place with the Fists because there are too many of them, but they don't want to leave, he'll honour what they fought for by giving them a way out and have the guts to go with them himself.

[Piousservant]

Is it? You've fought your way through the Horus Heresy, you've seen the Emperor nearly killed, you've seen several Primarchs killed, you've seen the Imperium reduced to ash, and now those who are conducting the rebuilding have just removed everything you ever fought for from the new Imperium. Dorn may have been guaranteed a place in the new Imperium, but his troops have not been. Rather than abandon the only ones who've stayed faithful to him (remember at this point Dorn still hasn't embraced the Codex fully, and in all likelihood is still feeling betrayed), Dorn decides to give them a chance for one last fight for the memory of the Emperor.

 

I think you've expressed it very well. And I also think, perhaps, that it was not just for his men that Dorn sought a final battle. He also seems to have felt lost in the midst of the rapidly changing Imperium and (though it's been a little while since I've read the IA to recall it precisely) I seem to remember his eventual end/disappearance/question mark illustrated well his willingness to sacrifice himself - perhaps a tendency brought on or at least accentuated by the Emperors near-death and the nearly unrecognisable new Imperium he saw around him.

 

I think it was far more likely that Dorn sought revenge at the Iron Cage but also sought a glorious end for himself. It would make sense to have happened after the Legion had split, he would know that his legacy - his Legion - would survive in the form of the new Chapters, all that he had left to be concerned with was his honour. That appeals to me anyway...