Question about Space Wolves

[Grey Mage]

No w you cant compare something that was written 4-5 years ago with something that was written last year. If that the case thanLeman Russ would still be a gaurd captain and Zoets would be walking around the universe stealing baby squats to eat.

Wait.... Zoats arent stalking the squat children for food chattel?

 

BEEF! YOU LIED TO ME!

[frostclaw222]

Knowns:

 

The standard Great Company is a wee bit bigger than your standard company, but sizes vary due to losses.

 

The 12 GCs presently at the Fang are augmented by the Great Wolf's personal retinue, which is known to include the Iron, Wolf, and Rune Priests. It may/should include his old GC from before he assumed Great Wolf, though one of his Wolf Guard may have taken over that GC, therefore making it one of the 12.

 

There are GCs that depart the Fang and disavow their oaths.

 

The Wolves are very leery of having the Inquisition snooping about. This is usually ascribed to the canis helix abnormalities, but could also be indicative of non-Codex size.

 

Chapters that were previously Legions seem to have grandfather clauses right left and sideways in terms of Codex variance. Examples: Dark Angels with their variant Company composition (Deathwing, Ravenwing), and the Ultramarines (size and claimancy in their territorial space).

 

The Wolf Brothers are the only known chapter to use the geneseed of Leman Russ, and were dissolved after massive geneseed mutation, the geneseed of Russ thereafter being viewed as suspect by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

Probables:

 

Black Templars, due to dispersal of forces and recruitment worlds as much as anything, are rumored to have upwards of 2500 astartes, and are rumored to have even more. But try getting them all in one place to count.

 

It's likely that the Wolves are similar, though not so outlandish. I would theorize SW end strength somewhere in the 2500-3000 range, but that is strictly my ballpark guesstimate with no fluff to support.

 

None of this incorporates the return of the 13th from the Eye. Their numbers are anyone's guess, but they left when a Great Company was huge 10,000 years ago, which makes the math anyone's game, weighing attrition and zero recruitment against the vagaries of time in the warp.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Knowns:

 

The standard Great Company is a wee bit bigger than your standard company, but sizes vary due to losses.

 

The 12 GCs presently at the Fang are augmented by the Great Wolf's personal retinue, which is known to include the Iron, Wolf, and Rune Priests. It may/should include his old GC from before he assumed Great Wolf, though one of his Wolf Guard may have taken over that GC, therefore making it one of the 12.

 

There are GCs that depart the Fang and disavow their oaths.

 

The Wolves are very leery of having the Inquisition snooping about. This is usually ascribed to the canis helix abnormalities, but could also be indicative of non-Codex size.

 

Chapters that were previously Legions seem to have grandfather clauses right left and sideways in terms of Codex variance. Examples: Dark Angels with their variant Company composition (Deathwing, Ravenwing), and the Ultramarines (size and claimancy in their territorial space).

 

The Wolf Brothers are the only known chapter to use the geneseed of Leman Russ, and were dissolved after massive geneseed mutation, the geneseed of Russ thereafter being viewed as suspect by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

Probables:

 

Black Templars, due to dispersal of forces and recruitment worlds as much as anything, are rumored to have upwards of 2500 astartes, and are rumored to have even more. But try getting them all in one place to count.

 

It's likely that the Wolves are similar, though not so outlandish. I would theorize SW end strength somewhere in the 2500-3000 range, but that is strictly my ballpark guesstimate with no fluff to support.

 

None of this incorporates the return of the 13th from the Eye. Their numbers are anyone's guess, but they left when a Great Company was huge 10,000 years ago, which makes the math anyone's game, weighing attrition and zero recruitment against the vagaries of time in the warp.

 

Well not just the 13th, but any other surviving GC which recanted their oaths to the Great Wolf at the time and may be roaming the Galaxy. Sure many may have perished but even if 3 are still viable those are good numbers. It may only matter when the Wolftime comes, where they would likely return home for great events!

[Vash113]

A simple way of thinking about it is to compare the single known quantity we have as far as numbers are concerned... Wolf Guard. According to the Codex the Space Wolves have about 20 Wolf Guard in a Great Company.

 

Now then compare that to a Codex Chapter that has a Veteran Company as one of it's 10 active Companies so about 100-105 Veterans out of 1000 or so active warriors or roughly 10% though with the Scout Company and Command Squads to consider the number can be fidgety but lets take an even 10% for simplicities sake.

 

Ok so if we surmise that the Wolves will likely have roughly the same number of Veterans as a Codex Chapter than 10% of total strength based on 20 Wolf Guard means a Great Company would on average be around 200 Marines, multiply that by 12 and you have 2400 Space Wolves without Considering the Great Wolf's Company that contains all the Venerable Dreadnaughts, Iron Priests, Wolf Priests and Rune Priests.

 

In conclusion I'd say an average guestimate of about 2500 for the Space Wolves is reasonable but it could of course vary from being a decent number less than that, to a great deal more depending on recruitment and attrition rates.

 

Though I'd say the Black Templars easily have 1000 Marines more than that at any given time. *shrug*

 

Now the Wolf Brothers are an interresting little mystery, while older material does state they were the only 2nd founding Chapter and were disbanded, some of the newer HH material seems to have another possibility in mind. According to the most recent material on the Wolves in the Tales of Heresy anthology the Wolf Brothers were all members of the 13th Company who had served Russ before he was found by the Emperor and were much like the Knights of Caliban in that they were a bit too old to go through the transformation process properly or safely but they wanted to try anyway, and those who survived became known as the Wolf Brothers.

 

How that reference will pan out in relation to the successor chapter by that name is uncertain but it's too big of a coincidence to be irrelevant I'd say.

 

Oh and finally about Pre-heresy Legion sizes the new Horus Heresy series has put a serious downsize to their numbers bringing the average Legion down to anywhere from 10,000 to 25,000 Marines or so with the Ultramarines being sizeably larger but deffinitely not the 100's of thousands that the Artbooks made reference to. Which is in my opinion a more reasonable number as with an average of 25,000 (some more, some less) you've still got about 350,000 Marines pre-heresy and considering that massive escalation in conflicts going on over the last 10,000 years and numerous new foundings about a 2/3 increase in the overall number of Marines seems more logical than with the numbers from the Artbooks which would have actually indicated a reduction in the number of total marines post-heresy despite the many foundings over the 10 millenia since the Heresy.

 

So overall I'd say that between 11-17K makes sense as a guess to the size of the Space Wolves Legion pre-heresy.

[Luc O' Luck]

Let's just expand upon Vash for the sake of simplicity, as he had a nice formula from which we could work.

 

Going on the concept of the Wolf Guard to Veteran comparison, with the Veterans making up 10% of the chapter, and there being around 20 Wolf Guard to a Great Company, and 12 Great Company's plus the Great Wolf's company, we have approximately 260 wolf guard within the Space wolves.

 

As approximately 10% of the Space Wolf chapter, 260 x 10 = 2600. Taking into account the fact that squads of blood claws can be larger than average, and to round it up to a nice neat thousand, I'd personally estimate the Space Wolf Chapter at being around 3000 combat ready marines as a minimum.

 

But that's just me. :wub:

[Grey Mage]

The thing is, its 20 wolf gaurd AND 2-4 Wolf gaurd battle leaders, as those are not included in the numbers. So lets take a look:

 

Wolf Lord (1)

Wolf Gaurd *battle leaders* (3)

Wolf Gaurd (20)

Going with the idea that theres probly 1 Wolf Gaurd per GH pack, and they are spread over the Great Company that leaves us with:

 

~ 190-220 Grey Hunters. So lets say, for sake of argument thats 210.

Bloodclaw packs vary in size from 5-25, and the number varries per great company, but from fluff readings 3 packs would seem within reason for the average GC, wich leaves us with:

50 Bloodclaws.

and 4-5 Longfang packs, averaging 4 members per, gives us say another 20 Long Fangs.

 

This includes all vehicle operators, as those are known to be Grey Hunters and Long Fangs of particularly small packs, and their numbers are included in the averages *as SWs dont replace fallen pack members*.

 

So thats 304 Wolves. Now we add in atleast one Wolf Priest and One Rune Priest for the spiritual and mental health of the company, on loan fromt he Great Wolfs as well as 2-4 Iron Priests to keep everything repaired and maintained (3). Two packs of Wolf Scouts gives us a likely 10 more marines of veteran or near veteran status. Add in around 3-4 dreadnaughts, probly one of whom is venerable, with a few more in reserve at the fang but not included in these numbers.

 

That leaves us with approximately 320 marines per great company with basic support personal- not including apprentice rune and wolf priests, as they appear to be primarily trained while still in their own packs.

 

Now, assuming that some GCs are understrength lets just chop off 10 from our number to find the average of 310... multiply by 12, and we find we have around 3700 marines in the chapter, about a quarter of what their legion size probably was.

 

Wich makes sense... throw in the heresy losses, the loss of the 13nth company, and then lop off another 1000(ish) for the "Wolf Brothers"... the loss of a great company is fairly painful, and assuming they take a set of priests etc with them as likely as not we can see a bit more shrinkage over time, but a steadly influx of recruits meaning that otherwise numbers would remain fairly constant. *Its shown that SWs are constantly recruiting from Fenris and that new BC squads are a fairly common occurrence*.

 

Wich still puts us around a 1000 marines fewer than the lowest numbers Ive heard for the Black Templars.

[Legatus]

Counting the Wolf Guard is ain interresting way to look at it, but I have a few objections.

 

- The Space Wolves are usually not the strict organisation types. Are Great Companies all organised according to certain guidelines? Do they all maintain a standard Wolf Guard size of 20? Perhaps 20 is the maximum ever possible for a Great Company. Perhaps it is only an average, but I doubt it, due to the next point.

 

- In a regular Space Marine army, your Assault Squad or Devastator squad choices are limited due to the force organisation system. Still it is possible to take 30 Assault Marines or 30 Devastator Marines in a single army, which usually is supposed to represent a battle company. They could get support from other companies, like the reserve companies, but that is not explicitely described in the army list. You can simply take that many Assault Marines.

[Vash113]

The thing is, its 20 wolf gaurd AND 2-4 Wolf gaurd battle leaders, as those are not included in the numbers. So lets take a look:

 

An interresting analysis Grey Mage. I didn't add Battle Leaders origionally as they are Battle Leaders, not actual Wolf Guard Veterans and for the purposes and specific number not given so they were not included in the number of Wolf Guard. I also didn't add vehicle crews or the like as we have no indication of the type or numbers of vehicles a Great Company may have nor did I break the overall number down by packs so I still think 200 is a better round guestimate for the size of a Great Company. Adding the Great Wolf's Company with all the specialists I doubt would be over 100 so that brings the total to about 2500 and then I suppose crews and so forth could add anywhere from 500-1000 more but I don't like trying to guess at that. Still anywhere from 2500-3500 seems logical. Not HUGE but still sizeably bigger than a Codex Company.

 

As for the Black Templars I recall a smallish size of 3500 at low points and well over 8500 at high points, the BT are even harder to peg down than the Wolves are.

 

Counting the Wolf Guard is ain interresting way to look at it, but I have a few objections.

 

Your right it's not perfect. There are a number of problems with it. It's just a simple and rough guess based off of the only solid number ever given to the Wolves in current era material. If you have a better way of calculating the Space Wolves size rough or otherwise I'd love to hear it. Unfortunately I doubt we'll ever get a snapshot organisation chart like the Ultras had in the 3rd Edition codex showing the current size and disposition of the Chapter, but it would be great if we did. Until then the WG/Vet Calculation is one I've used for a while now and the best way of determining the SW size I've yet found.

[Legatus]

Your right it's not perfect. There are a number of problems with it. It's just a simple and rough guess based off of the only solid number ever given to the Wolves in current era material. If you have a better way of calculating the Space Wolves size rough or otherwise I'd love to hear it.

Reading the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves again, which is where the idea of 20 Wolf Guard max originated from, the Wolf Guard seems to be described as a single unit, where individual members might lead other squads into battle as Champions, but which otherwise operates as the Greatcompanie's Elite unit and bodyguard of the Wolf Lord, though it seems to have been possible to still buy them as separate units, as long as the maximum model limitation was not exceeded.

 

A Wolf Guard unit had a size of between 5 and 20 models, and that was at a time where Space Marine squads, even for Space Wolves, were very strictly organised, and could only be bought "full" size. You bought 10 Tactical Marines or 10 Grey Hunters for a certain amount of points, no more, no less. The Wolf Guard, though, had a variable unit size, as described above, so that seems to imply that the Wolf Guard of a Greatcompany did not have a standard unit size of 20, but was variable in size, between 5 and 20 members.

 

If the Greatcompanies Wolf Guard could be as few as 5 members in size, or as much as 20, then it would be reasonable to take the average as your estimation of how many Wolf Guard the Chapter has in total, which would be 12-13 per Greatcompany.

[Vash113]

You seem to be missing the point Legatus. It's a "simple guess/estimate" yes it would perhaps be more accurate to take an average, and then to try and come up with a round number of vehicle crew per 10 Marines and so on and so forth but that's just getting far too iffy and complex. For simplicities sake I'm operating off of a full strength average, and doing the same with a Codex Chapter as well, a Codex Chapter won't necessarily have 100 Veterans in the 1st Company at all time, nevertheless on average they should be at full strength so that's the number being used to come up with an average full strength Chapter size.

 

If you want to be meticulous and guess at a possible size given moderate attrition that gets far more complicated, but I doubt the Wolf Guard numbers would be at little above 50% on average in the Chapter, you'd be better off starting with an average of 75-85% or roughly 15-18 Wolf Guard per Company.

 

But again anything like that is far more subjective and complicated before you even try to get into possible ship crews, Thunderhawk pilots, vehicle crews and specialists of all varieties which can fudge the numbers greatly. Then of course there's the unassigned Blood Claws to consider of which there could be hundreds at any given time and the calculation just becomes so obtuse and full of fudge figures that it's lost all semblance of purpose or validity.

 

So again I'll just say if you've got a better way of calculating a possible size for the Chapter I'd love to hear it.

[Legatus]

For simplicities sake I'm operating off of a full strength average, and doing the same with a Codex Chapter as well, a Codex Chapter won't necessarily have 100 Veterans in the 1st Company at all time, nevertheless on average they should be at full strength so that's the number being used to come up with an average full strength Chapter size.

 

If you want to be meticulous and guess at a possible size given moderate attrition that gets far more complicated, but I doubt the Wolf Guard numbers would be at little above 50% on average in the Chapter, you'd be better off starting with an average of 75-85% or roughly 15-18 Wolf Guard per Company.

Codex Chapters do have an ideal "full strength" for their companies and squads which they try to maintain. The Wolf Guard, as I have tried to demonstrate, seems to have not, since if that had been the case they would have had to be bought at a set unit size of 20 during 2nd Edition, since every other Space Wolves squad was bought at full size as well. I am therefor not arguing that some Greatcompanies have understrength Wolf Guard due to losses, I am saying that there is no "20 Wolf Guard" unit structure that a Greatcompany tries to maintain, and that instead each Greatcompany simply has as many Wolf Guard as they currently happen to have, which could be anything between 5 to 20 members. A Greatcompany with 10 Wolf Guard would not have "50% of their Wolf Guard", they would simply have their 10, and may get more or lose some, without being obliged to maintain a certain number of members.

 

So it is not like "A Greatcompany usually has 20 Wolf Guard", it is "A Greatcompany usually has between 5 and 20 Wolf Guard", which means on average a Greatcompany has 12-13 Wolf Guard.

[Vash113]

Ah ok, I see your point but I disagree. The Wolf Guard do have a set size, the novels indicate that, places in the Wolf Lord's retinue are highly saught after and limited in number. Along with the material from the novels and the 3rd Edition Codex I'd say that 20 seems to be the set maximum for the number of Wolf Guard, without another more current source to clarify or disagree with that, 20 is the number I'll be sticking with. When the new Codex comes out later this year perhaps we'll have more information on the subject, till then I'll be sticking with the most recent material on the subject. After all it may not be the best information to work from, but it's what we got.

[SamaNagol]

Ah ok, I see your point but I disagree. The Wolf Guard do have a set size, the novels indicate that......

 

Therein lies the error in your logic. Those Space Wolf novels were terrible when it came to sticking with canon. However 2nd Ed codex did state the Wolf Lord's Guard were 20 men strong and men would replace casualties almost straight away.

[Grey Mage]

So it is not like "A Greatcompany usually has 20 Wolf Guard", it is "A Greatcompany usually has between 5 and 20 Wolf Guard", which means on average a Greatcompany has 12-13 Wolf Guard.

So there are only 30 terminators in the first company of the ultramarines? The variable size of wolf gaurd does not imply that there were fewer than 20 wolf gaurd normally in the Great Company, merely that like other elite units they were split up and spread out as needed. Yes, I understand SM units were more rigid in their purchases at the time, however unlike a codex force a GC has only one unit of TDA- its wolf gaurd. It only has one veteran squad- its wolf gaurd. While Ultramarines could veteran seargent this or that and throw in terminators or vet squads, SWs are fluffiwise restricted in this manner, and the 5-20 size was a good way of reflecting that, and also allowed them to be fielded in smaller games where a unit of 20 veterans would otherwise mess with any kind of fun you would have.

 

Also, as SamaNagol pointed out WG postions are highly sought after and unlikely to remain open for long.

[Legatus]

However 2nd Ed codex did state the Wolf Lord's Guard were 20 men strong and men would replace casualties almost straight away.

Where does it say that? I was checking the Wolf Guard description on page 21, page 38 and page 54. But perhaps that bit has been lost in translation. Or does it say that in some other entry?

 

So there are only 30 terminators in the first company of the ultramarines?

Are the Terminator choices in a Codex Space Marine army representing the Terminators from the batle company you are playing?

 

The variable size of wolf gaurd does not imply that there were fewer than 20 wolf gaurd normally in the Great Company, merely that like other elite units they were split up and spread out as needed. Yes, I understand SM units were more rigid in their purchases at the time, however unlike a codex force a GC has only one unit of TDA- its wolf gaurd. It only has one veteran squad- its wolf gaurd.

Unlike a Codex force, a Greatcompany can not chose from several units of Veterans from the 1st Company, instead the 2nd Edition background seems to suggest that each Greatcompany has their own single Wolf Guard unit which usually accompanies the Wolf Lord. Maybe it is only the translation that makes it appear that way.

 

While Ultramarines could veteran seargent this or that and throw in terminators or vet squads, SWs are fluffiwise restricted in this manner, and the 5-20 size was a good way of reflecting that, and also allowed them to be fielded in smaller games where a unit of 20 veterans would otherwise mess with any kind of fun you would have.

The Veteran Sergeants could be a legitimate point, but then why not having 0-1 Wolf Guard unit choice consisting of 10 Wolf Guard and 0-10 Wolf Guard leaders? Space Wolves already were insanely powerful in 2nd Edition, so they could have made with fewer Terminator or Veteran squads to balance that out. Instead, it was possible to field a unit of 7 Wolf Guard, which was not possible with other Marine squads that came in a size of 10 members, or 5 in the case of Terminators and Scouts.

[Grey Mage]

Its actually very similar to the way they did Warlocks for 3rd edition- you got a unit of warlocks, and then they could detach from there and join certain squads. The Inverse happened with Blood Angels and the blood rage... they detached, and formed a new unit. Commissars still do this, priest for witch hunters do to... you get X number, and they go join other units. Its probly just because its a simple mechanic that allows you to use these options in a straitforward manner.

 

But thats rather besides the point really. The point is that Ive yet to see a truely solid number on a GC, everyone has their own opinions. There are dozens of threads in the SW forum, and dozens more that were lost during the big crash about this topic... and around 300 seems to be the only number we can get that has any real reasoning to back it. Other numbers include:

 

120 or so: Because its just like a company, with vets! *This does alot to imply wolves are a more thuroughly codex force than they are portrayed as, so I tend to disagree*.

as few as 80 and as many as 450: While it has the wonderful vagueness that keeps it hard to disprove, it also does nothing for the argument. This one is based on an understrength company just out of a series of campaigns at least, and a huge company built up to tackle a great hunt or some such.

300 or 350: Both are numbers people can usually reason out, as Vash and I have done so. Others disagree because it just seems like so much compared to a codex chapter. I find that argument silly, as wolves arent a codex chapter.

Less than 390: An old quote states the BT are likely around 4400 marines, but only the High Marshal can know for sure... and they are the largest current chapter, so 4400/12 leaves us around 390.

 

Other arguments center around wether or not you include priests and vehicle crews or scouts into the great company they are assigned to, or to the Great Wolfs Great Company. Some people have the mistake idea that Logain Grimnars GC is only comprised of priest and scouts- this is not the case, as his fluff in the SW codex shows him preparing for war against an Ork Waagh, leading his personal GC into battle- an army of wolf and rune priest backed up by scouts and then weakened by having much of their numbers spread out through the chapter would not be able to do this... the only reasonable conclusion being he has his only battle-ready force in addition to the authority to assign priests etc.

 

So I ask, if you wont accept the 300-350 mark with some good reasoning behind it, what method would you use to find the numbers?

[Legatus]

So I ask, if you wont accept the 300-350 mark with some good reasoning behind it, what method would you use to find the numbers?

I have only previously read the 10% Wolf Guard --> 200 Wolves per Greatcompany approximation, which sound reasonable, if not for my complaint with taking 20 Wolf Guard as standard.

 

What I cannot follow is the point you came up with that there supposedly is one Wolf Guard member per Grey Hunter pack. The 10% Veterans are in contrast to the whole of the Chapter, Battle Companies, Tactical squads, Scouts, all Marines, so where does that come from?

 

According tho the Wolf Guard battle leader description they are Wolf Guard members that are nominated by the Wolf Lord prior to an engagement, so technically they should fall under the Wolf Guard limit for the army and should not count extra. But that is rules vs. fluff for ya. Since the Wolf Guard Battle leaders are not even limited in numbers it makes little sense to just pick an arbitrary number. According to fluff, they come from the companies Wolf Guard. 2nd Edition did not have Wolf Guard Battel leaders, and that's where the 20 Wolf Guard was introduced. The WGBLs were an addition for 3rd Ed, as a "smaller" 2 wound HQ.

 

Why you would even consider the Wolfs Lord together with the Wolf Guard I do not understand either. Codex Chapter Captains are not part of the "10% veterans".

 

Another reason why 300-350 per Greatcompany seems odd is that the way the Black Templar numbers are described it seems to be significant that their total number is not known and that it is so much higher than those of an average Chapter. If the Space Wolves numbers would be anywhere near to the smallest estimations for the Black Templars then that would have been just as significant to point out in their background.

 

I still think that taking an average of 12-13 Wolf Guard per Greatcompany and taking that as 10% of the Greatcompany would be a decent way to approximate the Chapter size.

[Raven Angel]

While the fluff is too ambiguous to set a hard fast number I think that the numbers will very widely. The variables will include casualties in battle and the indiviual skill of each great compaies wolf preists. it will also in part be determined by wheather the Greatcompaies see to their own recrutment or are supplied with Blood Claws from the chapter at large. If they see too their own recrutment then it will be easier for a really ambitious wolf lord to grow his battle force. If Blood Claws come from the chapter then the great wolf can controle the great compaies size. Over ambitious commanders might not see replacements as fast as they would like forcing them to be more carefull with the lives they command and curbing their ambition as they would not have a force fit for tougher jobs or bigger battles there by earning less glory for themselves. Really the size will depend alot on how fast they can build up and how often they see heavy combat.

[Grey Mage]

So I ask, if you wont accept the 300-350 mark with some good reasoning behind it, what method would you use to find the numbers?

I have only previously read the 10% Wolf Guard --> 200 Wolves per Greatcompany approximation, which sound reasonable, if not for my complaint with taking 20 Wolf Guard as standard.

 

What I cannot follow is the point you came up with that there supposedly is one Wolf Guard member per Grey Hunter pack. The 10% Veterans are in contrast to the whole of the Chapter, Battle Companies, Tactical squads, Scouts, all Marines, so where does that come from?

 

According tho the Wolf Guard battle leader description they are Wolf Guard members that are nominated by the Wolf Lord prior to an engagement, so technically they should fall under the Wolf Guard limit for the army and should not count extra. But that is rules vs. fluff for ya. Since the Wolf Guard Battle leaders are not even limited in numbers it makes little sense to just pick an arbitrary number. According to fluff, they come from the companies Wolf Guard. 2nd Edition did not have Wolf Guard Battel leaders, and that's where the 20 Wolf Guard was introduced. The WGBLs were an addition for 3rd Ed, as a "smaller" 2 wound HQ.

 

Why you would even consider the Wolfs Lord together with the Wolf Guard I do not understand either. Codex Chapter Captains are not part of the "10% veterans".

 

Another reason why 300-350 per Greatcompany seems odd is that the way the Black Templar numbers are described it seems to be significant that their total number is not known and that it is so much higher than those of an average Chapter. If the Space Wolves numbers would be anywhere near to the smallest estimations for the Black Templars then that would have been just as significant to point out in their background.

 

I still think that taking an average of 12-13 Wolf Guard per Greatcompany and taking that as 10% of the Greatcompany would be a decent way to approximate the Chapter size.

 

Long story short- its got more to do with the "Retinue" rule than anything in a codex chapter. Thats why I include the HQ choices in their, with wolf gaurd as an extra guide-line. The idea is that there is, on average, between 750-100pts of marines per "character" and that the majority of wolf gaurd are pack leaders and bodygaurds, not battle leaders. Grey Hunter packs are listed as being the "Core" of the army. Wolf Gaurd are promoted directly from GH packs, many vehile crews come from GH packs who are understrength, etc. Just as youd not count the number of veterans in reference to scouts for a codex chapter, it also makes sense to leave out bloodclaws. The Priests are support personnel, and their numbers are fairly independant, as are those of scouts and dreadnaughts.

 

Comparing this with what fluff Ive read, their old IA article, and what horus heresy fluff Im familiar with.

 

As for the BT numbers, yes... it approaches the loweste estimates of the BTs numbers, but certainly doesnt hit that number. #2 best at something is rarely, if not never, mentioned in a chapters fluff.

[Legatus]

Just as youd not count the number of veterans in reference to scouts for a codex chapter, it also makes sense to leave out bloodclaws.

The "10%" figure is taking Scouts from a Codex Chapter into account. It is based on the simple "10 companies of 100 marines" structure, one company of them being 100 Veterans and another one being 100 scouts. (Though the number of Scouts is not strictly set, the general Chapter organsiation usually describes 10 companies of a 100 members as the basic structure.)

 

You can leave vehicles and HQ staff and what not completely out of the equation, since Codex Chapters have those too, and on top of the regular refered to "1000". If you want to get an approximation of how big the Space Wolves Chapter is you can concentrate entirely on the fighting squads.

 

If a regular Codex Chapter consists of 10% Veterans, and if Space Wolves Great Companies are structured alike with their own Veterans, then if you consider 20 Wolf Guard standard you would have a Great Company of 200 men. Plain and simple. For a total of 2400 Space Wolves plus Company of the Great Wolf, so you could perhaps add another 100 in Scouts. If you consider 12-13 Wolf Guard as the average, you would have about 125 men per Great company, for a total of about 1500 Space Wolves plus Company of the Great Wolf, so 1600 with Scouts.

 

As for the BT numbers, yes... it approaches the loweste estimates of the BTs numbers, but certainly doesnt hit that number. #2 best at something is rarely, if not never, mentioned in a chapters fluff.

The Space Wolve's size, if it was several thousand strong, would not be worth mentioning because they would then be the second biggest Chapter, it would be worth mentioning simoly because they would be so far from the norm, like only one other Chapter is known to be. Not sticking to Codex organisation is one of the big parts of the Space Wolves Chapter description. If their size would be twice or more than that of a Codex Chapter that would have been very worth to be pointed out.

 

 

One other aspect: The Black Templars most likely started out as a Chapter of 1000 at the time of the second founding, since every Legion agreed and was split into smaller Chapters. The Black Templar crusade forces were then pretty much left to themself, with each being responsible for their own recruitment, and only the Grand Marshall even knowing about the total of the Black Templar forces, without putting in much of an effort to regulate recruitment.

The Space Wolves most likely too started out not that much bigger than a 1000 during the time of the second founding, since they agreed to split up too. Just like the Templars, you could say that the Space Wolves would perhaps not feel pressed to keep a lower number, and a bit similar to the Templars, each SW Greatcompany is responsible for their own recruitment. Where the Space Wolves differ from the Black Templars, however, is that they are still a unified Chapter and are firmly controlled by (and devoted to) the current Great Wolf, so there is much more controll exercised by the Chapter Commander over the Companies of the Chapter than it is with Black Templars, and the Wolves are not quite as "out of controll".

 

While the Black Templar crusade armies operate almost entirely independent, rarely as a coherent force, and are not kept in check by the Chapter Commander, the Space Wolves have been a coherent Chapter based on a single home world ever since the heresy, so it is unlikely that they have "grown" like the uncontrolled and fleet based Templars have.

[Grey Mage]

I disagree on Four points:

1) Vehicles crews etc are important in this case, as all of the drivers must come from the great company. They are fighting squads, they just arent ground troopers.

2) Not even the ultramarines have just a 1,000 strong force, unless theyve suffered alot of losses- those numbers dont take into account command squads, ship captains, or tech marines. The number Im putting for is, and should. Theres an article around here that shows the ultramarines to be around 1300 strong... Id like to avoid such duality if I can.

3) The split didnt happen all at once though. Not even the Ultramarines fractured instantly upon the decree. I dont feel the space wolves were ever as small as a 1000 man chapter. The Wolf Brothers were, however they were a split off of the SWs, not the other way around. Russ was showing hed go along with it, slowly and grudgingly, and that initial experiment failed... thus keeping the rest of the legion together.

4) "Out of control". The Wolves are not "out of control" with their growth, Ill give you that- that doesnt meant heir expansion rate isnt much higher than a standard codex chapters. Why? Because they raise what a codex chapter would consider to be an entire scout company every 5-10 years, around 80-120 bloodclaws easily. The reason for this is simply a difference in training, but it certainly causes a greater influx of troops.

[Legatus]

1) Vehicles crews etc are important in this case, as all of the drivers must come from the great company. They are fighting squads, they just arent ground troopers.

How many vehicles does a Codex Chapter have, and who crews them? If you don't know the figures from a Codex Chapter it is pointless to speculate over the vehicles and crews the Space Wolves might have. Whether vehicles and crew come from the armoury or are part of the respective company probably does not change the amount of vehicles available. So there is no point in taking Space Wolves vehicles and their crew into account.

 

2) Not even the ultramarines have just a 1,000 strong force, unless theyve suffered alot of losses- those numbers dont take into account command squads, ship captains, or tech marines. The number Im putting for is, and should. Theres an article around here that shows the ultramarines to be around 1300 strong... Id like to avoid such duality if I can.

But we don't know how many "personell" or even how many "marines" (as in "genetically altered) a Chapter has. What is set pretty much in stone is the "roughly 1000" number (note that the background never actually says "1000"). So that is a perfect ground for comparison. Codex Chapters have an unknown amount of additional personell. Space Wolves have an unknown amount of additional personell. Since it is unkown eitehr way, at least we can assume that the amount of personall has a similar relation to the fighting squads of the Chaper. It is pointless for a comparison to speculate about numbers we do not know from either side. To compare the Space Wolve's Chapter size with that of a Codex Chapter you can simply compare the number of fighting squads per company or for teh whole Chapter.

 

3) The split didnt happen all at once though. Not even the Ultramarines fractured instantly upon the decree. I dont feel the space wolves were ever as small as a 1000 man chapter. The Wolf Brothers were, however they were a split off of the SWs, not the other way around. Russ was showing hed go along with it, slowly and grudgingly, and that initial experiment failed... thus keeping the rest of the legion together.

The split was the most important part of the Codex, based on the experience of the heresy, almost reason for another conflict between the loyalist Legions, and in the end accepted by everyone. Untill I see background that specifically points out that one Legion did not split entirely into Chapters of about 1000 men (plus "extra stuff", you know) I will assume that they all did.

 

4) "Out of control". The Wolves are not "out of control" with their growth, Ill give you that- that doesnt meant heir expansion rate isnt much higher than a standard codex chapters. Why? Because they raise what a codex chapter would consider to be an entire scout company every 5-10 years, around 80-120 bloodclaws easily. The reason for this is simply a difference in training, but it certainly causes a greater influx of troops.

That (wherever the numebrs come from, but I can accept them) would be no indication for me that there would be "growth". Does it say anywhere that they take an arbitrary number of recruits, or that they take as much as they can find, or could that simply be the amount of recruits they need to keep their strength? From Space Wolves squad organisation it seems that by the time they make Grey Hunters they will already have lost 30+% of those Marines. IIRC the Space Wolves training process is also described as being especially lethal, but maybe I am mistaking that with some other Chapter.

[Grey Mage]

Thats the numbers after the initial training process and gene-seed implantation. Not Neophytes, but bloodclaws.

[Raven Angel]

The Raven Gaurd, Salamanders and Iron Hands did not split in the second founding. Also it can be noted that in the most recent Fluff the Wolves arn't listed as spliting either. Acording to the stuff I have read the Scouring took a heavy toal on all the legions. At their hight Marine numbers rivaled 40k levels but by the end of this period there where no more than 50,000 left in the whole Imperium and this was just 10 years after the death of Horus. Most of these legions had far more production and maintanice equipment then they had staff. I can't concive of a situation where the Sons of Russ came out of all this turmoil in better shape then the smurf without number"Ultramarines" With there in you face fighting style and being led by a very pissed off Primarch I bet losses far outstriped new recrutes for them. One thing to note is the fluff states that there where always 13 Great companies and that after the 13th chased the 1,000 Sons into the warp Russ kept the leigion at 12 and at 12 it has stayed ever scince. We know little of Space wolf recuting practices during the Crusade. Based on all date I have seen however Fenris lacks the population density too support excessive recruting. The Wolves would need to draw men from other worlds to reach and keep levels on par with the larger Leigeons. There is no evidence to support that they did this however. I think the Legiion was always small compaired to the others and are probably about as big in 40K as they have ever been.

[Legatus]

The Raven Gaurd, Salamanders and Iron Hands did not split in the second founding.

The Raven Guard split into Raven Guard, Black Guard, Revilers and Raptors, while the Iron Hands split into Iron Hands, Red Talons and Brazen Claws. The Salamanders were the only Legion that did not form more than a single Chapter.

 

Also it can be noted that in the most recent Fluff the Wolves arn't listed as spliting either.

The 5th Edition Codex Space Marines still names the Wolf Brothers as their second founding successor. What other "most recent fluff" says that they did not split during the second founding?

 

One thing to note is the fluff states that there where always 13 Great companies and that after the 13th chased the 1,000 Sons into the warp Russ kept the leigion at 12 and at 12 it has stayed ever scince.

The Legion formations and sizes differed, so it is not unreasonable to assume that a Legion's "Greatcompany" is different from a reformed Chapter's "Greatcompany". For example, teh Salamanders still maintain their "7 Companies" strucure from when they were a Legion, with each of those companies being slightly larger than a Codex company. But certainly each company would have been much larger during the great crusade, unless the Salamanders Legion only had about 800 Marines back then.

 

I think the Legiion was always small compaired to the others and are probably about as big in 40K as they have ever been.

Since even Russ agreed to split his Legion to conform with the limitations in military power decreed by the Codex Astartes I find that unlikely, unless the Space Wolves too have not been much larger than a contemporary Chapter during their time as a Legion.