Beef Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Looks lets get this in perspective, An Average legion ws 100,000 marines strong, The ultra were 200,000+, the smallest was the sallies with 30,000 Important part, @the smallest with 30,000" were the Sallies, Not SW, SO SW were bigger, Maybe not by much But bigger than 30,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 If the Salamanders had 30,000 Marines then the smallest would have to be the Iron Warriors with their 12,000, but they are kind of from a different 40K canon-verse than the 30k Salamanders are. The 12k Iron Warriors come from the 40K where the Space Wolves had one successor, where the Salamanders had no successors at all, and where the Ultramarines, as the largest and almost unscathed Legion split into 24 Chapters. The 30k Salamanders come from a 40K where the Legions might have done different things and might have had a completely different number of successors. Whatever the current BL author envisions for them. Perhaps the Space Wolves Legion was 5k Marines and 45k Wulfen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I think the Legiion was always small compaired to the others and are probably about as big in 40K as they have ever been. Since even Russ agreed to split his Legion to conform with the limitations in military power decreed by the Codex Astartes I find that unlikely, unless the Space Wolves too have not been much larger than a contemporary Chapter during their time as a Legion. And I think you have to much faith in the decree of the Codex Astartes. Just because a 1000 men were split off does not mean that 1k was all thats left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 - Guilliman presents the Codex - Dorn and some others are opposed to splitting up into smaller Chapters as demanded by the Codex - It almost comes to fighting over this issue, because it was seen as an absolute necessity - Dorn relents and all make peace No where in that stablished background would "but Russ still wouldn't" fit in. There is no reason why Russ would have been treated any different than Dorn was. Dorn even had the whole "defending th epalace" and "the Emperor's praetorian" thing going for him, which Russ did not. Perhaps the Wolves were left with about 1500 men after splitting up. There is some wiggle room, and even a Codex Chapter's size may vary in times depending on recruitment. But if they would have had 3000 left they would have split into more successor Chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Where in the established background does it show the split happening all at once? Much like the emperors catatonic state the splitting of the legions took place over several centuries, not all at once. The Wolf Brothers spectacular failure led the High Lords, who would have included guiliman and russ at the time, to keep the wolves together. That fluff is fairly established. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 The fluff explicitely shows that NOT splitting was absolutely not tolerated. According to the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, the Wolves only split into two Chapters because they had never been a large Legion. The reluctance of the High Lords to spread the Space Wolves geneseed any further refers to the lack of any Space Wolves successors in the 10,000 years of Space Marine history and 20+ subsequent foundings. If Space Wolves based Chapters are susceptible to problems that is not in any way a reason to let the Space Wolves keep Legion strength and not split up (something which was previously forbidden with the use of force). If anything it is additional reason to limit the Space Wolves Chapter size as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Spliting may not have been optional at this time but remmeber somthing. Guillaman was pretty much running the show. He and Russ may have come to an understanding conserning the dispostion of the Wolves. Honnor and being bound by it would hold greater importance to Russ than just about any other Primarch. It is definitly a caltural thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 ...so ...if Russ agreed to comply with the demands of the Codex Astartes, he would then be honour bound to limit his Chapter's size, even if splitting of successor Chapters proved to not work? I am sorry, but I am not sure which direction you are trying to go with your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Look Legatus I think you are placing far too much emphasis on the fluff about the Codex Astartes and disregarding SW fluff completely. Yes the Space Wolves split into two Chapters, but unless I totally missed something, never does the fluff even remotely say that the Wolves complied with the Codex dictates or that either Chapter followed any of the tenets of the Codex yet you assume just because the Space Wolves agreed to break up into Chapters that they must have complied with the limitation on size. If the Space Wolves utterly and totally disregard every single other aspect of the Codex. What makes you think it even remotely likely that they adhere to the tenet on size? That's just not logical. Lets review: The Space Wolves maintain non standard vehicles such as the Leman Russ Exterminator. The Space Wolves do not adhere to the Codex dictated number of Companies. The Space Wolves do not maintain the Codex dictated Chapter Headquarters, Librarium, Reclusium, Armory or Apothecarium. The Space Wolves do not organize their troops according to any of the Codex dictates including size, structure or equipment. The Space Wolves maintain a fleet composed of a variety of ships contrary to Codex dictates. The Space Wolves do not follow codex dictates on the training, organisation or equipment of recruits to the Chapter. The Space Wolves do not adhere to the structure or disposition of Scouts. The Space Wolves do not follow the dictates regarding the equipment and organisation of Psykers. The Space Wolves do not adhere to the Codex structure or equipment of Chaplains or Apothecaries. The Space Wolves do not adhere to Codex dictated markings. The Space Wolves do not have any recorded use of Codex dictated tactical doctrine. The disposition of the personel aboard Space Wolves ships is unique in the Imperium and likely also contrary to Codex dictates. The Space Wolves purposefully imbibe specially brewed alcohol that inhibits their implants ability to metabolize poision and also probably something Guilliman would throw a fit about. The Space Wolves regularly maintain pets in the form of Fenresian Wolves... and also probably something Guilliman would frown on. The Space Wolves practice deviant transformation processes as laid down in the Codex Astartes. The Space Wolves Wolfblade are 24 or roughly 1/4 of a Marine Company that are placed under the direct command of House Bellisarius and even the Deathwatch or Grey Knights aren't under the command of the Inquisition, I'd wager there's something in the Codex against granting Space Marines to another organisation. And thats just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head. With all of those differences, with a total lack of regard for the Codex you think it's logical or even likely that the Space Wolves cow tow to the Codex dictates on the size of the Chapter? I don't think so. In fact all evidence supports Russ pretty much tossing the Codex out the window and refusing to comply to anything it had to say with the sole exception being the splinter Wolf Brothers. But even that in no way supports any other tenets of the Codex being accepted, not size, not structure, not doctrine, not tactics and even the Wolf Brothers was a short lived fiasco if it was even a serious effort at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deus lo volt Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Look Legatus I think you are placing far too much emphasis on the fluff about the Codex Astartes and disregarding SW fluff completely. Yes the Space Wolves split into two Chapters, but unless I totally missed something, never does the fluff even remotely say that the Wolves complied with the Codex dictates or that either Chapter followed any of the tenets of the Codex yet you assume just because the Space Wolves agreed to break up into Chapters that they must have complied with the limitation on size. If the Space Wolves utterly and totally disregard every single other aspect of the Codex. What makes you think it even remotely likely that they adhere to the tenet on size? That's just not logical. Lets review: The Space Wolves maintain non standard vehicles such as the Leman Russ Exterminator. The Space Wolves do not adhere to the Codex dictated number of Companies. The Space Wolves do not maintain the Codex dictated Chapter Headquarters, Librarium, Reclusium, Armory or Apothecarium. The Space Wolves do not organize their troops according to any of the Codex dictates including size, structure or equipment. The Space Wolves maintain a fleet composed of a variety of ships contrary to Codex dictates. The Space Wolves do not follow codex dictates on the training, organisation or equipment of recruits to the Chapter. The Space Wolves do not adhere to the structure or disposition of Scouts. The Space Wolves do not follow the dictates regarding the equipment and organisation of Psykers. The Space Wolves do not adhere to the Codex structure or equipment of Chaplains or Apothecaries. The Space Wolves do not adhere to Codex dictated markings. The Space Wolves do not have any recorded use of Codex dictated tactical doctrine. The disposition of the personel aboard Space Wolves ships is unique in the Imperium and likely also contrary to Codex dictates. The Space Wolves purposefully imbibe specially brewed alcohol that inhibits their implants ability to metabolize poision and also probably something Guilliman would throw a fit about. The Space Wolves regularly maintain pets in the form of Fenresian Wolves... and also probably something Guilliman would frown on. The Space Wolves practice deviant transformation processes as laid down in the Codex Astartes. The Space Wolves Wolfblade are 24 or roughly 1/4 of a Marine Company that are placed under the direct command of House Bellisarius and even the Deathwatch or Grey Knights aren't under the command of the Inquisition, I'd wager there's something in the Codex against granting Space Marines to another organisation. And thats just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head. With all of those differences, with a total lack of regard for the Codex you think it's logical or even likely that the Space Wolves cow tow to the Codex dictates on the size of the Chapter? I don't think so. In fact all evidence supports Russ pretty much tossing the Codex out the window and refusing to comply to anything it had to say with the sole exception being the splinter Wolf Brothers. But even that in no way supports any other tenets of the Codex being accepted, not size, not structure, not doctrine, not tactics and even the Wolf Brothers was a short lived fiasco if it was even a serious effort at all. lol, really? Why would Guilliman want to change the way the SW wage war? Why would he want them to abandon their traditions? It's rediculous to think that Guilliman would even try. But we can agree that Guilliman was in charge at the time with the full force of the Administratum and a Legion at least 10x the size of the SW. Can you try to give Guilliman a little credit. He only had ONE directive.............. That no one man would ever wield the power of an Astartes Legion again. It's really an easy concept to understand when you adhere to this one principle. All the Legions were broken down. Every other arguement is just a "my chapter has the biggest ****" justification. Every Chapter except 1/1000 deviates to some degree from the Codex. The SW are just the furthest from it..........someone has to be last! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 What makes you think it even remotely likely that they adhere to the tenet on size? That's just not logical. Lets review: ... And thats just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head. You have a bit of a misconception about the different elements of the Codex Astartes and their meaning. The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines describes the Codex Astartes in 10 paragraphs. The first four paragraphs describe what is said to be the first objective of the Codex Astartes, to expunge the weaknesses in in the gene-seed production methods used during the great crusade, which had left fresh and untested recruits vulnerable to chaos. In the future, gene-seed should be carefully produced, and new initiates should undergo trials and testing before being accepted. The Space Wolves follow these procedures as does every other Chapter. The next four paragraphs describe the "most immediate change" the Codex Astartes brought for Space Marines, the limitation of military power and the breaking up of the Legions into smaller Chapters. This was not something that was just done with Space Marines. All other imperial military branches were limited and separated in a similar manner, but for Space Marines, this was included in the Codex Astartes. About this part and the Space Wolves I will talk below. The 9th paragraph is a historical anecdote about Guillimans plans for the Chapters. The 10th and final paragraph then goes on to describe how the Codex Astartes "further defines tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines". There are a few distinctions between the first two articles, described in 4 paragraphs each, and the "further" bits listed in the final paragraph. One is that the first two are direct results of the negative experience of the Horus Heresy, while the latter are doctrines, strategies and conventions Guilliman had started to compile before the Heresy. An important difference is that the first two articles are vital for the security of the Imperium and the survival of Space Marines, while the doctrines and strategies are merely meant to improve a Chapter's efficiency and performance. Here is the important part that is often overlooked: The dispute between Dorn, Russ and Guilliman was specifically about the breaking up of the Legions, which neither Dorn nor Russ were willing to do. It was at no point a matter of squad organisations or unit markings. In fact, after the Codex Astartes has been described, the Codex Ultramarines proceeds to describe "Codex Chapters", and how some Chapters have strayed from strict Codex doctrine over time, and it then goes on to explain that the Adeptus Terra has never felt in neccessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Dorn was not about to start a second heresy because he did not like the unit organisation or combat doctrines presented in the Codex Astartes. Just as it is silly to assume that Guilliman expected and forced the Legions to mark their units according to his guidelines or to employ the strategies he had described. These elements of the Codex Astartes are guides, suggestions and conventions. They are powerfull, as the Ultramarines themself have proven for the last 10,000 years, but they are not what was enforced at the time of the second founding. It is the first two articles, the controlled production of geneseed with carefull testing of initiates and the limitation of a single Chapter's might that were not suggestions but decrees that had to be followed, and in the end were followed by every Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 lol, really? Why would Guilliman want to change the way the SW wage war? Why would he want them to abandon their traditions? It's rediculous to think that Guilliman would even try. But we can agree that Guilliman was in charge at the time with the full force of the Administratum and a Legion at least 10x the size of the SW. Can you try to give Guilliman a little credit. He only had ONE directive.............. That no one man would ever wield the power of an Astartes Legion again. It's really an easy concept to understand when you adhere to this one principle. All the Legions were broken down. Every other arguement is just a "my chapter has the biggest ****" justification. Every Chapter except 1/1000 deviates to some degree from the Codex. The SW are just the furthest from it..........someone has to be last! :) One directive? Nope, in fact according to the fluff Guilliman's first priority was to ensure a safer process for the transformation of new marines, with the breakup of the Legions following as a close second, and then you get all the other stuff in the Codex as well. Also 1/1000 is non deviant? Hardly, according to the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines: Most Chapters stick rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down for organisation, tactical roles and other processes... That from page 9 under The Codex Chapters, I dunno how many "Most" is but it's at least more than half. Though funnily enough with the Tyrannic War Veterans of the 4th Edition fluff the Ultramarines could arguably be not amongst that number. Ironic no? You have a bit of a misconception about the different elements of the Codex Astartes and their meaning. That's a funny thing to say when your operating purely from the 2nd Edition Ultramarines Codex, when there have since been dozens of publications that bring light to the subject including the 3rd Edition Codex Space Wolves, the 3rd and 4th Edition Codex Blood Angels, the 3rd and 4th Edition Codex Dark Angels, the Eye of Terror Codex, the 4th Edition Black Templars codex, the 3rd, 4th and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, the Index Astartes Articles (most of them anyway), and Insignium Astartes. Including this little tidbit from Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition on page 9 under the heading The Codex Chapters: A small number of Chapters are utterly different from the Codex, and owe nothing to it at all. The most famous of these wild Chapters is the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves have never followed the Codex Astartes - their strong willed Primarch moulded his Chapter very much in his own image, irrespective of oher influences and doctrines. The bold was for emphasis of course. The brand spankin new material seems pretty darn clear, the Space Wolves have never followed the Codex. And the breakup into Chapters and restrictions on size are both tenets of the Codex. Seems fairly irrefutable, the Space Wolves may technically be called a "Chapter" now but that doesn't mean they actually accepted or followed any of the Codex's tenets and particularly there's no proof that they follow the tenet on size either. So like I said you can try to spin it anyway you want, doesn't mean there is any proof what so ever that the Space Wolves follow the dictate on the size of a Chapter. Heck even Codex Chapters don't follow that tenet. And I'm not only referring to The Thousand Marines Myth but also this from page 7 of the new Codex: The Codex decreed that each Chapter would be a thousand battle-brothers strong and look to its own recruitment, training and equipment. Though Chapters have often exceeded their basic fighting strength of one thousand souls during times of prolonged war... So overall there is no evidence that the Space Wolves follow the 1000 marine tenet, or any tenet of the Codex for that matter regardless of whether you think I'm misunderstanding the codex or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 ...so ...if Russ agreed to comply with the demands of the Codex Astartes, he would then be honour bound to limit his Chapter's size, even if splitting of successor Chapters proved to not work? I am sorry, but I am not sure which direction you are trying to go with your post. Kinda it is obvious from the Spcae Wolf Codexes that they ignore most if not all the limitations laid down by the codex Astartes. If every other Legion had to submit to most of these rules then what Oaths did Gulliaman extract from Russ that bind his chapter to this day? What word of honor did Russ give that set everyone even the other High Lord of Terra at easy to get this wriggle room for his men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 That's a funny thing to say when your operating purely from the 2nd Edition Ultramarines Codex, when there have since been dozens of publications that bring light to the subject including the 3rd Edition Codex Space Wolves, the 3rd and 4th Edition Codex Blood Angels, the 3rd and 4th Edition Codex Dark Angels, the Eye of Terror Codex, the 4th Edition Black Templars codex, the 3rd, 4th and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, the Index Astartes Articles (most of them anyway), and Insignium Astartes. Including this little tidbit from Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition on page 9 under the heading The Codex Chapters: A small number of Chapters are utterly different from the Codex, and owe nothing to it at all. The most famous of these wild Chapters is the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves have never followed the Codex Astartes - their strong willed Primarch moulded his Chapter very much in his own image, irrespective of oher influences and doctrines. I prefer to cite the version from Codex Ultramarines because that is where the background originated from. That material was then reprinted, with slight alterations, in the Index Astartes books, and most recently in the 5th Codex Space Marines on page 7. In this new version, the breaking up into smaller Chapters is described first, before the change in gene-seed production. What all versions have in common is that tactical doctrines and organisational recomendations are described in the final paragraph. The quote you cite is preceeded by an introduction you ironically quoted earlier as well, though in a different context. That section deals with "Codex Chapters" which are Chapters that follow all the guidelines and doctrines presented in the Codex Astartes. Those guidelines and doctrines are what defines a "Codex Chapter", and are what the Codex Astartes is usually remembered for. Those elements are what Guilliman had been working on over the years, while the two main decrees of the Codex were neccessary points raised by the Heresy. There are some Chapters who do not follow the guidelines and doctrines so rigidly, like the Blood Angels or Dark Angels, and the Space Wolves do not care for them at all. Yet if it comes to splitting the Legions into smaller Chapters, as described in the previous Section titeled "Codex Astartes", there were no exceptions, and the table that lists the successor Chapters has one for the Space Wolves as well. They did comply with the gene-seed procedure (I am sure you have all read the ragnar novels and how the Space Wolves test their initiates), and they did comply with the breaking up of their Legion, as did everyone else. The organisational and tactical doctrines are an entirely different matter. Heck even Codex Chapters don't follow that tenet. And I'm not only referring to The Thousand Marines Myth but also this from page 7 of the new Codex: The Codex decreed that each Chapter would be a thousand battle-brothers strong and look to its own recruitment, training and equipment. Though Chapters have often exceeded their basic fighting strength of one thousand souls during times of prolonged war... So overall there is no evidence that the Space Wolves follow the 1000 marine tenet, or any tenet of the Codex for that matter regardless of whether you think I'm misunderstanding the codex or not. The "1000 marine myth" has been around for years and is based on careless reading of the descriptions of Chapter organisation. The Codex Ultramarines describes: "Each Chapter was to number approximately a thousand fighting warriors divided into ten companies of a hundred. This was never intended to be an absolute rule but a guide which enabled the Adeptus terra to monitor and controll the size of each Chapter. In fact, Chapters often exceed this basic strength during times of prolonged war. (...) A Chapter consists of ten companies each of one hundred Space Marines." From 3rd Edition Index Astartes: "Where the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximately one thousand fighting warriors. (...) Following the Horus Heresy the Space Marines Legions were divided into Chapters consisting of roughly 1,000 warriors. (...) A Chapter consists of ten Companies each numbering 100 Space Marines." The background for Chapter organisation never said that a Chapter had a total maximum of 1000 people. But the simple figure of "10 Companies of 100" is easy to remember, so 1000 is naturally the number that comes up when Chapter sizes are discussed. A more carefull reading of the Chapter organisation would have revealed to everyone that a Chapter consists of 1000 "grunts" and an additional number of officiers, commanders and staff. I too will continue to describe Chapters as being "1000" or "roughly 1000" if I am feeling picky, and usually not refer to "10 companies of 100 men with additional staff and commanders". The facts remain: - There was about to be a conflict between the Legions because some did not want to split up - In the end, all Legions split up The Space Wolves are no exception to that. Whether they then over the aeons started to grow again in number is an entirely different matter, but I don't think there currently is any background suggesting that they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I prefer to cite the version from Codex Ultramarines because that is where the background originated from. That material was then reprinted, with slight alterations, in the Index Astartes books, and most recently in the 5th Codex Space Marines on page 7. In this new version, the breaking up into smaller Chapters is described first, before the change in gene-seed production. What all versions have in common is that tactical doctrines and organisational recomendations are described in the final paragraph. We have a name for those alterations, it's called "retcon" and they are important. You of all people should know that you really must work from the most recent and most up to date source of the information. The quote you cite is preceeded by an introduction you ironically quoted earlier as well, though in a different context. That section deals with "Codex Chapters" which are Chapters that follow all the guidelines and doctrines presented in the Codex Astartes. Those guidelines and doctrines are what defines a "Codex Chapter", and are what the Codex Astartes is usually remembered for. Those elements are what Guilliman had been working on over the years, while the two main decrees of the Codex were neccessary points raised by the Heresy. There are some Chapters who do not follow the guidelines and doctrines so rigidly, like the Blood Angels or Dark Angels, and the Space Wolves do not care for them at all. Yet if it comes to splitting the Legions into smaller Chapters, as described in the previous Section titeled "Codex Astartes", there were no exceptions, and the table that lists the successor Chapters has one for the Space Wolves as well. They did comply with the gene-seed procedure (I am sure you have all read the ragnar novels and how the Space Wolves test their initiates), and they did comply with the breaking up of their Legion, as did everyone else. The organisational and tactical doctrines are an entirely different matter. Wrong actually, there is little to no evidence what so ever to suggest that the Space Wolves really did break up, that the Wolf Brothers were actually a real Chapter and what happened to them or that the Space Wolves have reduced in size at all, there is also no real evidence that the Space Wolves even accepted the different transformation processes. I find it impossible to believe that the Astartes Legions did not test or train their initiates at all during the Great Crusade and nowhere is it mentioned that the Space Wolves comply with the standards laid down by Guilliman. In fact the Space Wolves transformation process is different and aberrant from what Guilliman laid down at the most basic level, being the introduction of the Canis Helix prior to any of the later stages of transformation and in fact the novels do not make note of the sizeble transformation time required by Guilliman. Your also grasping at straws with arguing about the heading and section. It matters not that the quote is from the section on "Codex Chapters" and not "the Codex Astartes," the material itself is very clear. That the Space Wolves owe nothing to it at all and have never followed the Codex Astartes. You seem to be implying that somehow the dictates on the size reduction and breakup are not parts of the Codex or that because discussed in a previous section the reference to the "Codex Astartes" on page 9 somehow does not mean the whole Codex but just it's organisational and tactical doctrine and that's just bunk. Also note that nowhere does it say all the Legions accepted the Codex's decrees and changed their Legions accordingly, the text actually says and I'll quote: almost all eventually accepted the necessity of the Codex. Unlike you said the material does not say that all the Legions accepted the Codex, it says almost all accepted the necessity for it. Accepting the necessity for and actually accepting the changes are two entirely different things and then of course the word almost means that not all did and there was at leas 1, maybe more that didn't accept it at all. The facts remain: - There was about to be a conflict between the Legions because some did not want to split up - In the end, all Legions split up The Space Wolves are no exception to that. Whether they then over the aeons started to grow again in number is an entirely different matter, but I don't think there currently is any background suggesting that they did. Except the bolded is not a fact, not with the current fluff anyway. There is no solid proof that the Space Wolves did actually break up and didn't just rename themselves a Chapter and toss out the Wolf Brothers as an excuse to get Guilliman off their back. The mystery around the Wolf Brothers makes it unclear whether the Chapter really existed, who was in it and why, and whether they were really a successor Chapter at all and not merely a misidentified lost company of some kind. And even if the Space Wolves did split there is absolutely no indication that they split down to the size demanded by the Codex or that they ever even made an attempt to do so. Your facts just aren't there I'm afraid and your operating from some rather sizeable assumptions and misconceptions. What is clear is that the Space Wolves never, ever, even remotely accepted the Codex in any form and as the 5th Edition Codex says, owe nothing to it at all. Given the fact that the demand to break the Legions down and limit their size are both aspects of the Codex, not decrees in addition to it, the fluff is fairly clear that the Space Wolves may well not have broken up, or reduced in size at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deus lo volt Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 You gotta be kinding me with that response. Why did the SW get a pass when it came time to break the Legions? If you want to go by the latest fluff then consider how jealous and petty the Primarchs can be when dealing with other Legions. You can't honestly believe that any surviving Primarch would let Leman Russ retain the very power they were giving up, can you? Your arguement puts the cart before the horse anyway. The Codex didn't become relevant until the Legions were broke. It was written for a chapter sized formation afterall. Common sense should tell us that. That no one man would ever wield the power of an Astartes Legion again - Roboute Guilliman's Primary Directive. :P :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Your utterly missing the point Deus and your totally wrong too, the Codex didn't come after the breakup, it WAS the breakup. The decree to break up the Legions was part of the Codex. And you may find my post unbelievable but unfortunately it's what the facts support, I'm not making this up. Check out the material I quoted in my previous post, it's right there in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. It even says "almost all eventually accepted," not "all accepted" so even the material in the new Codex, in black and white, says that not all Legions accepted even the necessity for the Codex, let alone the Codex itself and further material in the new Codex says that the Space Wolves have not ever used the Codex or conformed to it in any way. And while you may believe the decrees abolishing the Legion were somehow seperate, the fact remains that that decree and all the others were part of the Codex Astartes, not in addition to, or before it. I guess you don't like that, but thems the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 We have a name for those alterations, it's called "retcon" and they are important. You of all people should know that you really must work from the most recent and most up to date source of the information. One of the reasons in this specific situation is actually that the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines is one of the few books I have not available in english, so I cannot directly quote from it. Wrong actually, there is little to no evidence what so ever to suggest that the Space Wolves really did break up The Codex Astartes background describes that the existing Legions were divided into Chapters. My translated Codex Space Marines actually says "all Legions", but maybe that was added in the translation. The Codex Ultramarines did say "each Legion". The Index Astartes text simply says "the existing Legions". The Index Astartes version also specifically states "Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two) but the Ultramarines were divided many times." The current Codex Space Marines lists the Wolf Brothers as the only Space Wolves successor Chapter, just like every previous Codex Space Marines (and I don't think that this was added in the translation). So that's basically it. Unless you can cite a source that specifically states that the Space Wolves did not split up into Chapters the background has established fairly conclusive that they did. there is also no real evidence that the Space Wolves even accepted the different transformation processes. I find it impossible to believe that the Astartes Legions did not test or train their initiates at all during the Great Crusade The text about the Codex Astartes mentions problems in the gene-seed due to accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength, which was in some way exploited by Chaos. According to the Codex Astartes the training of Space Marines is supposed to happen over a controlled period of time, and genetic banks are carefully monitored and tested. Initiates are now subjected to intensive training and psychological tests. I have no reason to doubt that the Space Wolves take the neccessary measures in the production of their gene-seed as to not be subject to any such weakness. And the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves did describe that chosen initiates are rigurously tested before they are deemed worthy and implanted with the Space Wolve genes. In fact the Space Wolves transformation process is different and aberrant from what Guilliman laid down at the most basic level A lot of Chapters have their own personal traditions and tests. Your also grasping at straws with arguing about the heading and section. It matters not that the quote is from the section on "Codex Chapters" and not "the Codex Astartes," the material itself is very clear. Yes, context matters. If it is a section that specifically discusses degrees in which various Chapters follow the doctrines and organisational structure of the Codex. And especially when it had been established on the previous two pages that all Chapters split up and the Space Wolves were divided into the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers Chapter. You seem to be implying that somehow the dictates on the size reduction and breakup are not parts of the Codex or that because discussed in a previous section the reference to the "Codex Astartes" on page 9 somehow does not mean the whole Codex but just it's organisational and tactical doctrine and that's just bunk. You seem to be implying that the background about the breaking up of the Legions did not just state two pages earlier without any exceptions that the Legions were divided into Chapters, and that the list of successors one page earlier did not list the Wolf Brothers as the single successor Chapter of the Space Wolves. (And that the Space Wolves were not just referred to as a "Chapter"...) Also note that nowhere does it say all the Legions accepted the Codex's decrees and changed their Legions accordingly, the text actually says and I'll quote: almost all eventually accepted the necessity of the Codex. What does the next paragraph say about the Legions splitting up? (I don't have that in english, I am honestly curious.) Your next two paragraphs come down to what the next paragraph describes I would say. Your facts just aren't there I'm afraid and your operating from some rather sizeable assumptions and misconceptions. Well, let's review. This time with specific sources. - The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and 3rd Edition Index Astartes (Codex Astartes) describe specifically or unambiguously that all Legions split into Chapters. I am certain the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines says that as well, but you would have to confirm that. - The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and all following Codex Space Marines Editions all list the Wolf Brothers as the Space Wolves' only successor Chapter. - The Index Astartes (Codex Astartes) specifically states that the Space Wolves only divided into two Chapters. - According to the Index Astartes IF, BT and CF and the Codex Black templars, not splitting up was not tolerated. Do you have any other background to back your claim that the Space Wolves did not in fact split into two Chapters, other than the statement from a paragraph about following the organisational doctrines? Just for comparison (I don't have the current Codex in english, remember), this is the corresponding paragraph from the Index Astartes text about Codex Chapters. "Most Chapters, however, do not stick so rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down either for organisation, tactical roles or other processes. Many Chapters are largely organised according to the Codex but are further shaped by their home world and the personality of their primarch. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels are prime examples of this. A small number of Chapters are vastly different from the Codex, and owe nothing at all to it. The most famous of these 'wild' Chapters are the Space Wolves, whose strong-willed Primarch, Leman Russ, moulded his Chapter very much in his own image irrespective of other influences." There is no way anyone could claim that the paragraph describes anything other than organisation. It even specifically adresses Russ and his "Chapter", and it had been specifically stated a few paragraphs earlier that the Space Wolves Legion had been divided into two Chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Just because they split into two chapters, does not mean they were of equal size. If 1k men split off of a 5k strong chapter, you have a standard chapter and very large chapter. The Salamanders Chapter and the Black Templars Chapter show us that chapters are not always a thousand men. The statement that there ard between 3 and 4 thousand space wolves today is nothing huge, as it states in the black templars codex that there is upwards of six thousand templars, and while some members of the inquisition are concerned, it has been agreed that they be left alone, as they have a sterling record going back 10k years. C:BT- Pg. 8. Petro Kantors remnants after the battle of Ryns World is still called a chapter, yet its barely two companies strong. They Scythes of the Emperor are in the same boat. The Iron Hands are considered a Chapter, as are the Grey Knights, yet neither follows the codex size, nor do they have companies like a codex chapter would. A Chapter is a name for a group of space marines, it is not a unit of size. That Space Wolves have 2/3 of that isnt even worth mentioning in general fluff. Yes, that would put them at several times the size of a codex chapter, but this is not so huge compared to their brothers from Dorn. Legatus, youve given quotes from C:UM and C:SM showing that many chapters are but 1k strong, Id ask, since you say you have access to codices except the newest C:SM, that you give quotes from the 2nd or 3rd ed C:SW to show the chapters size at being around 1k. Ultramarines and their kin have no baring on the size, makeup, or existance of Space Wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Just because they split into two chapters, does not mean they were of equal size. If 1k men split off of a 5k strong chapter, you have a standard chapter and very large chapter. "Where the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximately one thousand fighting warriors." Index Astartes 1, page 12, Codex Astartes Unless I have reason to believe that one of the newly founded second founding Chapters was significantly larger than that I will take that as the norm for every Chapter formed back then. The Salamanders Chapter and the Black Templars Chapter show us that chapters are not always a thousand men. Certain Chapters do not follow the company organisation described in the Codex Astartes. The Black Templars are so large because the individual crusade forces are responsible for their own recruits, recruitment is not regulated by the Grand Marshall, and because the Administratum is not able to observe the total strength of the Black Templars. None of these factors were in play at the time the Black Templars Chapter was formed from members of the former Imperial Fists Legion. A Chapter is a name for a group of space marines, it is not a unit of size. The title actually comes from a former Legion formation called "Chapter", so it does originate from a 1000ish formation, but I don't think a present day Space Marine Chapter that cannot keep full strength should be denied the right to call themselves a "Chapter". It has become the title for a distinct Space Marine force. That Space Wolves have 2/3 of that isnt even worth mentioning in general fluff. Yes, that would put them at several times the size of a codex chapter, but this is not so huge compared to their brothers from Dorn. A great deal of the Space Wolves Background is devoted to how different they are from a Codex Chapter. If they had several times the size of a regular Codex Chapter that would absolutely be worth to be mentioned, completely independent from how big any other given special Chapter may be. Legatus, youve given quotes from C:UM and C:SM showing that many chapters are but 1k strong, Id ask, since you say you have access to codices except the newest C:SM, that you give quotes from the 2nd or 3rd ed C:SW to show the chapters size at being around 1k. The SW Codices are ironically among the few books I do not have in english (I have them both translated here though). It does not matter either way, because I never claimed the Space Wolves were 1000 strong. Personally I think they are probably somewhere around 1,500 men strong, not counting command and staff. Ultramarines and their kin have no baring on the size, makeup, or existance of Space Wolves. So only the Imperial Fists were prosecuted because they did not want to limit their size, but not the Space Wolves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 EDIT: Well said Grey Mage. The Codex Astartes background describes that the existing Legions were divided into Chapters. My translated Codex Space Marines actually says "all Legions", but maybe that was added in the translation. The Codex Ultramarines did say "each Legion". The Index Astartes text simply says "the existing Legions". The Index Astartes version also specifically states "Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two) but the Ultramarines were divided many times." The current Codex Space Marines lists the Wolf Brothers as the only Space Wolves successor Chapter, just like every previous Codex Space Marines (and I don't think that this was added in the translation). So that's basically it. Unless you can cite a source that specifically states that the Space Wolves did not split up into Chapters the background has established fairly conclusive that they did. I can and I did, the most current material on the matter makes it clear that the Space Wolves have absolutely nothing to do with the Codex, nothing, and that not even all the Legions accepted the break into Chapters. The only possible evidence to the contrary in the most recent and updated material is the existence of the Wolf Brothers and even that isn't direct proof that the Space Wovles truly did accept the Codex demanded divide and number limitation as it's unclear whether the Wolf Brothers are even a true successor and not merely a mislabeled Lost Company. If you have more recent evidence to the contrary, give it. Otherwise your proof and your facts are all outdated, retconned material t As for context, it matters, but not in the way your implying. The heading does not specify and control the entire context of the text. Just because the term Codex is used under the "Codex Chapters" heading does not mean that it only refers to organisation and tactics, believing so is just contrary to logic and the structure of the english language. Unfortunately for you the text makes it clear the Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex at all, not that they owe nothing to the Codex's dictates on organisation and tactics, organisation and tactics are mentioned earlier however the material does not say that the Space Wolves owe nothing to the organisational doctrine. The Codex in it's entirety is specifically stated, context cannot limit the statement of the Codex unless something in the text specifically does so in each specific instance. Now your proof appears to be the presence of the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers, however their presence is not proof that the Space Wolves did break down or accept any of the Codex doctrine. In fact the previous material makes it clear that not all Legions did accept the break up of the Legions. So how can this be, how can there be a Space Wolves Chapter and they not have accepted the Codex? Easy, the Chapter is NOT a creation of the Codex. As an organisational unit for the Space Marines the Chapter unit already existed. It's entirely possible that the Space Wolves Legion renamed itself a Chapter as according to the organisational unit used during the Great Crusade which isn't necessarily anything like a Codex Chapter. The Wolf Brothers is also not proof of any kind. Material on the Wolf Brothers is contradictory and mysterious. They are listed as a successor but are they really? We don't know, they are assumed to be however that's not specifically known, some material hints that they are the Wolf Guard of Russ or a Lost Company mistakenly identified as a successor by the Imperium. We just don't know but the presence of the Wolf Brothers in the Codex chart isn't proof that the Space Wolves truly broke up and had a successor and even if the Wolf Brothers are a successor there is no proof that the Space Wolves accepted the break up themselves or the Codex tenets and that the Wolf Brothers are anything more than a splinter. A good example would be the Black Templars, technically considered a successor Chapter but a Chapter that utterly ignores and disregards the Codex in every way, shape, and form including the decrees on size and limitations of power. If that's possible, is it so hard to consider the possibility of the reverse happening with the Space Wolves? I don't think so but clearly that notion is offensive to you and others. You can rant all you wish about context, and the successors chart, but lets see you come up with an actual, textual proof that the Space Wolves did truly, break down into Chapter strength and accepted the Codex decree on size in current, up to date material. As the most current material says exactly the opposite. P.S. As Grey Mage stated we have Codex Chapters that do not follow the limits on size either, the Salamanders and White Scars are prime examples, both relatively smaller than the Codex dictates. If you can have Codex Chapters that don't accept the decree on size why is it even remotely logical to assume that the Space Wolves would who are utterly non-codex? That just doesn't make a lick of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 The Armies of the Imperium suppliment for EPIC put a post-Heresy Space Wolf Great Company as 120-370 marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Turns out I found the relevant quotes. I can and I did, the most current material on the matter makes it clear that the Space Wolves have absolutely nothing to do with the Codex, nothing, and that not even all the Legions accepted the break into Chapters. Well, not all "accepted the necessity of the Codex". And i notice you did not bother to quote the followng paragraph. Upon the Codex's implementation, each old Legion became a Chapter named for its forebearer plus a number of new Chapters. (...) The Codex decreed that each Chapter would be a thousand battle-brothers strong* (...) Though Chapters have often exceeded their basic fighting sgrength of one thousand souls* during times of prolonged war, the desired effect was achieved. Never again would one man be able to command the awesome, terrible power of a Space Marine Legion. Emphasis mine. *The description is inacurate in this respect, and previous texts have, more correctly, refered to "approximately" or "roughly a thousand fighters". If you have more recent evidence to the contrary, give it. Otherwise your proof and your facts are all outdated, retconned material It is only outdated if it is contradicted by newer material. The Index Astartes description of how the Space Wolves were divided into two Chapters is very specific. As for context, it matters, but not in the way your implying. The heading does not specify and control the entire context of the text. Just because the term Codex is used under the "Codex Chapters" heading does not mean that it only refers to organisation and tactics, believing so is just contrary to logic and the structure of the english language. Unfortunately for you the text makes it clear the Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex at all, not that they owe nothing to the Codex's dictates on organisation and tactics, organisation and tactics are mentioned earlier however the material does not say that the Space Wolves owe nothing to the organisational doctrine. The Codex in it's entirety is specifically stated, context cannot limit the statement of the Codex unless something in the text specifically does so in each specific instance. You obviously did not bother to read the quote I cited from the Index Astartes. For comparison, this is the text passage you base your whole argument on: "Most Chapters stick rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down for organisation, tactical roles and other processes. Others are largely organised according to the Codex but have slight variations, such as the Blood Angels and Dark Angels. A small number of Chapter are utterly different from the Codex, and owe nothing to it at all. The most famous of these wild Chapters is the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves have never followed the Codex Astartes - their strong willed Primarch moulded his Chapter very much in his own image, irrespective of other influences and doctrines". 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 9 Compare that to this text: "Most Chapters, however, do not stick so rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down either for organisation, tactical roles or other processes. Many Chapters are largely organised according to the Codex but are further shaped by their home world and the personality of their Primarch. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels are prime examples of this. A small number of Chapters are vastly different from the Codex, and owe nothing at all to it. The most famous of these 'wild' Chapters are the Space Wolves, whose strongwilled Primarch, Leman Russ, moulded his Chapter very much in his own image irrespective of other influences." Index Astartes 1, page 13 Does that sound familiar? It is not "new and retconed background". It is the same old description of the Space Wolves as the rogues who do not care for Codex doctrine. And that same text is given in the Index Astartes shortly after the Space Wolves are specifically described as having been divided into two Chapters. If that very specific background description was not contradicted by this paragraph back then, it is not contradicted by it now, and teh very specific description from the Index Astartes is still as official now as it was back then. Even if you disregard the fact that the original passage, it is blatantly obvious that the whole paragraph is about organisation and doctrine. Now your proof appears to be the presence of the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers, however their presence is not proof that the Space Wolves did break down or accept any of the Codex doctrine. In fact the previous material makes it clear that not all Legions did accept the break up of the Legions. My proof is that consitently over the editions (2nd Ed C:UM, 3rd Ed IA, 5th Ed C:SM) the background about the second founding has described that all Legions were split into Chapters, and one account even specifically mentions the Space Wolves being divided into two Chapters. A Chapter was described in that same article as being approximately 1000 fighters string, in case you are wondering. So how can this be, how can there be a Space Wolves Chapter and they not have accepted the Codex? If "not accepting the Codex" refers to organisation? As an organisational unit for the Space Marines the Chapter unit already existed. It's entirely possible that the Space Wolves Legion renamed itself a Chapter as according to the organisational unit used during the Great Crusade which isn't necessarily anything like a Codex Chapter. I am pretty sure that's not what the general second founding background means when it says that the Space Wolves Legion was divided into two Chapters. :geek: A good example would be the Black Templars, technically considered a successor Chapter but a Chapter that utterly ignores and disregards the Codex in every way, shape, and form including the decrees on size and limitations of power. Which I have adressed in my previous post. Short answer, the Black Templars were not this big when they were formed. You can rant all you wish about context, and the successors chart, but lets see you come up with an actual, textual proof that the Space Wolves did truly, break down into Chapter strength and accepted the Codex decree on size in current, up to date material. I believe there should be no questions left by now. As the most current material says exactly the opposite. I demonstrated that it is neither "most current material" nor does it say anyning of that kind. P.S. As Grey Mage stated we have Codex Chapters that do not follow the limits on size either, the Salamanders and White Scars are prime examples, both relatively smaller than the Codex dictates. If you can have Codex Chapters that don't accept the decree on size why is it even remotely logical to assume that the Space Wolves would who are utterly non-codex? That just doesn't make a lick of sense. It does make sense when you realize that the whole point was to limit the strength of a single Space Marine force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Correct me if I'm wrong here but wouldn't the size of a chapter especialy one with such fluid organisational tendences as the wolves have a massive effect on unit break down and smaller unit organisation? A smaller chapter is going to more closly resemble the codex chapters by virtue of its size anyway. all this back and forth is not really geting any of us any closer to an answer and taking a "this book says this and never shall you transgress approach is going to end up hurting somboadies feelings. The fluff was written ambigous for a reason. To let each of us read a little into it and make the army our own. At this point this foram is supose to be like the game about having fun with this discusion. Not wining at all cost. You both have different and opposing veiws and no amount of yelling at each other in the next post will chang that. Agree to diagree. Quit trying to win with the limmited fluff we have and find a more enjoyable and compelling line of that as to why they would be allowed to ignor these proabitions. 40K is writen from the stand point of looking back through the far mist of time. There will never be a complete and totally satisfing answer. Russ is the only one who could have made the wolves conform and Guillaman the one who would have let them slide. Don't con vince us gental men convice these 2 men. Don't relly on the meger fluff use your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 The Armies of the Imperium suppliment for EPIC put a post-Heresy Space Wolf Great Company as 120-370 marines. That's interresting and confirms the larger than Codex size for the Chapter and funnily enough confirms my rough computation as a nice rough median. @Legatus -I'm afraid your beating a dead horse at this point, you're just requoting the same material you brought up or that was mentioned before and it's no more valid proof now than it was before. You also seem to not be understanding the meaning of retcon or context. Similarity does not invalidate a retcon, the IA material may be significantly similar to the current material, however there are changes and significant changes in the material as it is printed now. Consistency also matters not at all, only what the current material directly says which simply comes down to not all the Legions accepted the break up and the Space Wolves have never accepted the Codex and owe nothing to it at all. Those are facts as of the 5th Edition Codex: Space Marines, all previous material that contradicts that is now retconned and thefore no good as the proof your trying to make it. I said come up with current material and you haven't... again. As far as I'm concerned there's no question about it, the Space Wolves did not break up as acording to Guilliman's decree nor do they follow any of the decrees laid down by the Codex, size restriction, gene-seed and recruitment practices, none of it. End of story and you have zero proof to the contrary. By the way the context does not alter the basic meaning of a word. Prior to and after the independant clause regarding the Space Wolves, the passage indicated the subject of organisation and doctrine however the clause about the Space Wolves and the Codex gives no indication that the word "Codex" is referring only to the Codex organisation and doctrines, if it did the text would say just that. Otherwise to limit the scope of the word "Codex" you have to add to the text, and then that's not what the text actually says. This is a perfect examle of a tangent, defined as a: "2: diverging from an original purpose or course" Or in other words it's not actually part of the primary subject of the section of text and hense the context of the rest of the text does not define the context or purpose of the tangent. Similar concepts are a counter-point or an aside. So like I said before, continuing to rehash the same old stuff that's no longer valid doesn't prove anything. Like it or not the old material has been retconned, and the current fluff does not support what you claim at all. Similarity, consistency, coincidence, retconned material, context misconceptions, spurious correlations, and post hoc ergo propter hoc are all not valid proof of what you claim, it's as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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