Question about Space Wolves

[Grey Mage]

The Armies of the Imperium suppliment for EPIC put a post-Heresy Space Wolf Great Company as 120-370 marines.

And thats a number I can certainly work with. 120x12= 1440+Priests+Scouts. So that means around 1500 minimum, with a maximum of 370x12= 4440+Priests+Scouts.

 

My own numbers as well as Vash's were around 3k strong to a 3.5k strong. These are a good midline of those numbers, and heres a good fluff support for it, yet again.

 

Is it so hard to countenance that a non-codex chapter could do something... non-codex?

[Logain the Ranger]

One thing I keep seeing brought up is the term Codex Chapter. The Space Wolves are not a Codex Chapter and have never been. Dorn did not want to start a second civil war, but I believe Russ was headstrong enough to call Guilliman's bluff. Besides it's entirely believeable that Russ got rid of all his scrubs with the Wolf Brothers, and kept his best men. I think it would be pretty easy to fudge how many marines you have when have a huge galaxy to hold them.

[Raven Angel]

I don't think Russ Would have done that because I do think that after what theyed just been through Guilliman would have droped the full 30k man hammer on any one threatning to ripe the imperium apart again. He was th only on with a huge Legion left. Even if Russ managed to get out with 5k men after the scouering I don't think he could have killed enough Ultramarines too win. Even then it would have ben a lose/lose for the imperium. I think Russ and Guilliman cam to somkind of understanding and it's not recorded in the fluff. Russ pleaged his men to somthing and every Great Wolfthere after has had to do the same on there honor. In these times such a promise handed down from the Primarch himself; who would dare violate it?

[Vash113]

One thing I keep seeing brought up is the term Codex Chapter. The Space Wolves are not a Codex Chapter and have never been. Dorn did not want to start a second civil war, but I believe Russ was headstrong enough to call Guilliman's bluff. Besides it's entirely believeable that Russ got rid of all his scrubs with the Wolf Brothers, and kept his best men. I think it would be pretty easy to fudge how many marines you have when have a huge galaxy to hold them.

 

Oh absolutely! :) In fact that's exactly how the Black Templars do things, it's impossible to pin down how many there are at any one time, with Crusade's spread all over the Galaxy changing their name after each campaign, figuring out which Crusades are which and how many marines are in each at any given time would be a massive feat. Where as the SW with 12 Great Companies spread over the Galaxy and not likely together for any length of time along with greatly varying recruitment and attrition rates the Space Wolves wouldn't make for a much better Chapter to pin down on the exact number of fighting men at any given time. Also that's before considering the "lost" Companies and however many of those are floating around. The galaxy is a big place after all. :P

 

I don't think Russ Would have done that because I do think that after what theyed just been through Guilliman would have droped the full 30k man hammer on any one threatning to ripe the imperium apart again. He was th only on with a huge Legion left. Even if Russ managed to get out with 5k men after the scouering I don't think he could have killed enough Ultramarines too win. Even then it would have ben a lose/lose for the imperium. I think Russ and Guilliman cam to somkind of understanding and it's not recorded in the fluff. Russ pleaged his men to somthing and every Great Wolfthere after has had to do the same on there honor. In these times such a promise handed down from the Primarch himself; who would dare violate it?

 

Except the Space Wolves also have the Fang, the second most mighty fortress in the Imperium next only to the Imperial Palace itself. Sieging that particularly given the Space Wolves other political ties and alliances would be the height of stupidity, the Fang even managed to hold out against the full wrath of the Thousand Sons and Magnus the Red on just a skeleton garrison, with the full strength of the Space Wolves defending I can't imagine what it would require to actually take the Fang. Rogal Dorn was the Emperor's Praetorian and the only Primarch with the political position to technically oppose Guilliman. Russ on the other hand is often seen as just a stubborn and savage drunkard, hardly a threat to Guilliman's new order for the Imperium and not worth the effort of sanctioning, as has been the case in all the millenia since. In other words it's entirely plausible that Russ called Guilliman on his bluff and Guilliman was unwilling to start another war to bring Russ to heel... or that Guilliman got pricked by Fulgrim before he could make an issue of it. Or even more likely Russ tossed out the Wolf Brothers as a half baked placation and Guilliman was unwilling to make a further issue of it.

 

Regardless, the point of contention is regarding the size of the Space Wolves Chapter and all the material points towards well more than a Codex Chapter, even as much as four times the size of a Codex Chapter and the fluff reinforces this repeatedly. And frankly there's really nothing that speaks directly to the contrary.

 

After all, as Grey Mage so aptly put, I don't see how it's so hard to imagine that a non-codex Chapter does something... non-codex.

[Raven Angel]

Oh so true

[wolf2.3]

I may be a bit late in the topic but does'nt the lexicanum wedsite put our strength at 1440, excluding the 13th. And ar'nt we supposed to have a vast number of dreads compared to other chapters.

[Legatus]

The Armies of the Imperium suppliment for EPIC put a post-Heresy Space Wolf Great Company as 120-370 marines.

That is a nice find. A am assuming 120-130 per great company myself (and have for years, though I am not sure where I got that from in the first place). I would be a bit weary about that source, though, since IIRC it was released prior to the change to 2nd Edition, though from what I can gather Leman Russ was already described as their Primarch in the booklet, and not simply as the founder of the Chapter. Just from the booklet I could not find the numbers you are quoting, but I assume it has something to do with army composition (something I am not quite getting from my short look) but if I am not mistaken it also presents a Codex Battel Company as consisting of three Tactical squads, three Assault squads and three Devastator suqad. So there may be a case to be made that they were sacrificing accuracy for game mechanics.

 

@Vash113: I cannot do any more than to explain that your source does not say what you think it does and quote several sources that say what I have claimed, including some from teh 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. Let's see what the new Codex Space Wolves might bring, but I am very much expecting that their organisation will be changed again, just as it was from 2nd to 3rd Edition.

 

Is it so hard to countenance that a non-codex chapter could do something... non-codex?

No, just that one of the "Chapters" during the second founding had kept semi Legion strength at that time.

 

I think it would be pretty easy to fudge how many marines you have when have a huge galaxy to hold them.

Yeah, it's not like anyone would check... <_<

 

In fact that's exactly how the Black Templars do things, it's impossible to pin down how many there are at any one time, with Crusade's spread all over the Galaxy changing their name after each campaign, figuring out which Crusades are which and how many marines are in each at any given time would be a massive feat. Where as the SW with 12 Great Companies spread over the Galaxy and not likely together for any length of time along with greatly varying recruitment and attrition rates the Space Wolves wouldn't make for a much better Chapter to pin down on the exact number of fighting men at any given time.

The simple fact that the Space Wolves are based on a single home world instead of being a fleet based Chapter and the fact that they seem to have regular chapter gatherings does mean they are a lot easier to check on than the Black Templars. I get the impression that Logan Grimnar is very much in charge of the bunch, whereas the Black Templar grand marshall simply lets the Templar crusades be on their way.

[Grey Mage]

If the BT are allowed to have nearly 6k simply because theyve never betrayed the imperium en-mass in 10k years and have been on the forefront of countless battles, I think the SWs qualify for the same treatment.

 

But in any case, at this point I see that nothing will change your mind legatus, Im used to that from the OR forum. So I can only hope that other readers will consider both sides opinions and make up their minds based on the facts presented.

 

G'day.

[Legatus]

If the BT are allowed to have nearly 6k simply because theyve never betrayed the imperium en-mass in 10k years and have been on the forefront of countless battles, I think the SWs qualify for the same treatment.

That is not actually why the Black Templars "are allowed" their larger size.

[Grey Mage]

Actualy legatus it is. See Pg 8 of the Black Templars Codex, near the bottom.

[Legatus]

It says that because there has been no evidence of disloyalty on behalf of the Black Templars and because there has never been found any evidence to challenge the Chapter on it's numbers their true size remains a mystery. I.e. the Administratum does not know their size, and because of the stated reasons there so far has not been an opportunity to determine their true size. They are not reasons for the size being tolerated. It is not. It is unknown.

[Grey Mage]

No, theres been oppurtunity, they just choose not to in light of the chapters service record. That much is clear in the english translation.

[Legatus]

I have the english version right here:

"Certain members of the Inquisition have expressed concern over the potential size of the Chapter, but since there has been no evidence of disloyalty in their long history, and none have found evidence to challenge the Chapter on its numbers, the Chapter's true size remains a mystery."

 

Edit: You are sort of moving the goal post, btw. The record of the Black Templars is one of the reasons why they are not under strict Inquisitorial investigation. Despite the concerns there has not been enough reason that would warrant such a treatment. While there are concerns in some circles that they might have such a size, the evidence to make such a case and accuse the Templars of it is lacking. So they are not investigated/spied on/officially suspected of any breach of terms. The point is that they do not have official permission or are allowed to have that size because of their record, as you initially put it.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

BY THE GOLDEN THRONE CAN WE CALL A CEASE FIRE!?!

 

As a Wolf, i decided not to stick my paw in cause both sides were doing so well without me. but if this back and forth continues this thread will start looking like the "Is Loken dead or alive" thread!

 

this is like a sitting in a rocking chair, you go back and forth but are really going nowhere.

 

WLK

[deus lo volt]

Your utterly missing the point Deus and your totally wrong too, the Codex didn't come after the breakup, it WAS the breakup. The decree to break up the Legions was part of the Codex. And you may find my post unbelievable but unfortunately it's what the facts support, I'm not making this up. Check out the material I quoted in my previous post, it's right there in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. It even says "almost all eventually accepted," not "all accepted" so even the material in the new Codex, in black and white, says that not all Legions accepted even the necessity for the Codex, let alone the Codex itself and further material in the new Codex says that the Space Wolves have not ever used the Codex or conformed to it in any way. And while you may believe the decrees abolishing the Legion were somehow seperate, the fact remains that that decree and all the others were part of the Codex Astartes, not in addition to, or before it. I guess you don't like that, but thems the facts.

 

OUCH! :)

[Legatus]

It is probably interresting to point out that the splitting up into Chapters was not a concept that originated from the Codex Astartes, though.

 

"At the End of the Heresy, the Primarch Roboute Guilleman of the Ultramarines Legion devised a military organisation that would spread the power of the Legiones Astartes, Imperial Navy and Imperial Army across the galaxy, so no longer would one individual wield the power of an entire Legion again. For Space Marines, these rules were laid down in the Codex Astartes, a mighty tome that also dealt with unit organisation, markings, tactical doctrines and all other aspects of the Marines' structure. Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists, responsible for the defense of Terra itself, refused to have his Legion broken down into much smaller Chapters (...)"

Index Astartes Black Templars

 

So it was really not so much a matter of whether a Legion accepted the Codex or not, as it was a decree that was given to all imperial armed forces, and for Space Marines it was included in the tome that was supposed to include all aspects of Space Marines. It was a rule beyond the Codex, and accepting it was not optional. You could see it like this: It was an absolute law to split the Legions into Chapters. The Codex then explained how that was to be done.

[Vash113]

Again you grasp at pointless straws Legatus and your just not correct. Whatever way you look at it the breakup was part of the Codex, completely and inextricably part of the Codex. The decree splitting up the Imperiums other armed forces was just that, the decree for the Space Marines was written in, and part of the Codex and the material you just quoted even says just that. You're assuming that because other similar decrees also split up the rest of the Imperium's forces that the decree for the Space Marines is separate, it's not. As a reminder I'll quote it again:

 

For Space Marines, these rules were laid down in the Codex Astartes, a mighty tome that also dealt with unit organisation, markings, tactical doctrines and all other aspects of the Marines' structure.

 

In other words the key word there is IN the Codex Astartes, not "along with" or "in addition to" or "as well as" but just plain "in" and there's no indication to the contrary.

[Legatus]

It is like this: The boss says that each employee has to follow a new office rule, and for your department that rule will be included in your new guidebook. You can reject the guidebook as much as you like, and "owe nothing to it at all" :P but you would still have to comply with your bosses direct order. That is completely irrespective of how you feel about the guidebook. The initial order still stands.

 

The Space Wolves are not deliberately doing the exact opposite of what the Codex says. It is inconsequential what they think of it, the initial decree to split up the Legions and limit the sizes of Marine forces is effective beyond that.

 

And I can only repeat that the Space Wolves complete and utter disdain for the Codex had been described in 3rd (as well as 2nd) Edition sources as well, right next to the description of how they were split into two Chapters during the second founding. We allways knew they did not care for the Codex at all. And we also knew that they were split during the second founding. The two are not mutually exclusive, and have not been for the past 10+ years. That you keep bringing up "grasping at straws" is pure irony.

[Grey Mage]

Your repeated use of the Codex Astartes and Codex: Ultramarines as your main sources of information is very odd when talking about SWs.

[Raven Angel]

The problem is that you are both right and you are both wrong. Thats how ambigous the fluff is. In some places there are holes so big you could fly the Phalanx through.

[Vash113]

The problem is that you are both right and you are both wrong. Thats how ambigous the fluff is. In some places there are holes so big you could fly the Phalanx through.

 

That is often the case, however here it most certainly is not. The weight of evidence is quite clear, that the Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex at all, and that includes the decrees on the split of the Legions and every other decree, all of which are inextricable parts of the Codex. The most recent material from the 5th Ed. C:SM clearly states that not all Legions accepted the break up and that the Space Wolves in particular have never accepted the Codex. That the Wolf Brothers exist and the SW are known as a Chapter now are not mutually exclusive from having never accepted the Codex. I don't know how much clearer those facts can be. Any so called "ambiguity" only comes when one attempts to twist and manipulate the text in entirely illogical ways. :)

 

Unless Legatus can come up with something truly solid, and that's up to date, to actually contradict that material then there is absolutely no reason this discussion should continue.

 

@Legatus

It is inconsequential what they think of it, the initial decree to split up the Legions and limit the sizes of Marine forces is effective beyond that.

 

You keep saying that the decrees were not part of the Codex or somehow were outside the bounds of the Codex with regard to the Space Marines, but I just gotta say: prove it.

[Grey Mage]

The problem is that you are both right and you are both wrong. Thats how ambigous the fluff is. In some places there are holes so big you could fly the Phalanx through.

The problem is that my numbers are backed by several peices of SW fluff, but legatus choose to ignore them. I in turn choose to ignore his Ultra-fluff and C:SM fluff... as its irrelevant in most cases. Thus we are deadlocked.

[Vash113]

The problem is that my numbers are backed by several peices of SW fluff, but legatus choose to ignore them. I in turn choose to ignore his Ultra-fluff and C:SM fluff... as its irrelevant in most cases. Thus we are deadlocked.

 

Actually the C:SM fluff supports the SW numbers in multiple ways and the Ultra specific fluff is outdated. There honestly shouldn't be any confusion as to what's supported by the fluff at this point, let alone enough to cause a deadlock.

[Legatus]

That is often the case, however here it most certainly is not. The weight of evidence is quite clear, that the Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex at all, and that includes the decrees on the split of the Legions and every other decree, all of which are inextricable parts of the Codex. The most recent material from the 5th Ed. C:SM clearly states that not all Legions accepted the break up and that the Space Wolves in particular have never accepted the Codex.

 

I can prove without a doubt that the passage about the Space Wolves "not owing anything to the Codex" does not in any way means they were not reformed into a Chapter, as you say it does. It is really rather simple, we just have to compare the relevant passages from 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, 3rd Edition Index Astartes and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, and we see that they all tell the same story, yet you claim the same words in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines suddenly mean something completely different which they did not mean earlier.

 

These passages are taken from the "The Codex Astartes" and "Codex Chapters" section (for referencing):

 

Codex Ultramarines, 2nd Edition

To create the new Chapters the original Space Marine Legions were divided. Each old Legion became a Chapter of the same name plus a number of other Chapters.

(...)

[Table]Original Chapter: Space Wolves - Successor: Wolves Brothers

(...)

Most Chapters do not stick so rigidly to the Codex Patterns laid down either for organisation, tactical roles, or other prosecces. (...) A small number of Chapters is utterly different from the Codex, and owe nothing to it at all. The most famous of these wild Chapters is the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves have never followed the Codex, their strong willed Primarch moulded his Chapter very much in his own image irrespective of other influences.

Basically:

- every Legion was split into Chapters

- the Space Wolves Chapter does not care for the Codex

 

Index Astartes, 3rd Edition

The existing Space Marine Legions were divided into new Chapters, one Chapter keeping the name and colour of the original Legion, while the remaining Chapters would take new titles and colours. Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two) but the Ultramarines were divided many times.

(...)

Many Chapters, however, do not stick so rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down either for organisation, tactical roles or other processes. (...) A small number of Chapters are vastly different from the Codex, and owe nothing at all to it. The most famous of these 'wild' Chapters are the Space Wolves, whose strong willed Primarch, Leman Russ, moulded hiy Chapter very much in his own image irrespective of other influences.

Again:

- every Legion was split into Chapters, specifically the Space Wolves

- the Space Wolves Chapter does not care for the Codex

 

Codex Space Marines, 5th Edition

Upon the Codex's implementation, each old Legion became a Chapter named for its forebearer plus a number of other new Chapters.

(...)

[Table]Legion: Space Wolves - Seccond Founding Chapters: Wolf Brothers

(...)

Most Chapters stick rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down for organisation, tactical roles and other processes. (...) A small number of Chapters are utterly different from the Codex, and owe nothing to it at all. The most famous of these wild Chapters is the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves have never followed the Codex Astartes - their strong willed Primarch moulded his Chapter very much in his own image, irrespective of other influences and doctrines.

And again:

- every Legion was split into Chapters

- the Space Wolves Chapter does not care for the Codex

 

Note specifically how the 5th Edition part about the Space Wolves you base your claims on is taken word for word verbatim from Codex Ultramarines. It is definitely not a retcon if it is 100% identical to previous material, is it? Also note how in all of the versions the Space Wolves are refered to as a "Chapter" in that passage. Nothing of that Fluff is outdated. The only change is that now supposedly most Chapters do stick rigidly to the Codex doctrines, where in previous accounts most Chapters did not.

 

The most recent material from the 5th Ed. C:SM clearly states that not all Legions accepted the break up

I don't see that clearly stated in my Codex. As it stands, with the paragraph about the Space Wolves "not owing anything to the Codex and not following it" being irrelevant to your cause, you are basically basing your claim that the Space Wolves Legion was not split into two Chapters entriely on a passage saying how "almost all eventually accepted the necessity of the Codex". It is really not a reasonable claim to make that the Space Wolves Legion was not reformed into Chapters, seeing how the Space Wolves are refered to as a Chapter throughout the whole book, as they allways have been.

 

How big the Space Wolves Chapter is is up for debate. That they have been reformed into a Chapter during the second founding is not.

 

Grey Hunter:

The problem is that my numbers are backed by several peices of SW fluff

Taking the number of Wolf Guard and assuming that the Space Wolves have a 10% veteran ratio like a Codex Chapter was an acceptable approach, though I disagreed with going by "full" Wolf Guard squads as the number to work with. What you did was adding officiers and staff, something that cannot and thus should not be compared between Chapters, and officiers not being part of the Chapter's 10% "Veterans", you disregarded Wolf Scouts as being part of the remaining 90% and instead being added on top of that, contrary to how the "10% veteran" approach works for other Chapters, where Scouts are counted with the remaining 90%, and you came up with arbitrary figures like "one Wolf Guard per Grey Hunter Squad" which I found irreproducible. (I am working by memory, so I am sorry if I am accusing you of something you did not claim.)

200 Space Wolves per Greatcompany is a guess based on a simple and comprehensible approach, though I disagree on the "20" figure it is based on. Your 350+ were not comprehensible in my view, and I think I did explain why. For now I still think 120-130 per Greatcompany is a reasonable number.

[Vash113]

I can prove without a doubt that the passage about the Space Wolves "not owing anything to the Codex" does not in any way means they were not reformed into a Chapter, as you say it does. It is really rather simple, we just have to compare the relevant passages from 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, 3rd Edition Index Astartes and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, and we see that they all tell the same story, yet you claim the same words in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines suddenly mean something completely different which they did not mean earlier.

 

I'm afraid Legatus that's just not true. We know for a fact that the reforms were all part of the Codex, we know for a fact that the Space Wolves did not accept the Codex in any way, therefore the Space Wolves cannot have been reformed into a Chapter by the Codex. Your entire argument is based off of the premise that the decrees to split the Legions were somehow outside the bounds of the Codex or in addition to it, and that's just incorrect. You also seem to be ignoring the concept of retcons. Any information from the older material such as Codex Ultramarines and the Index Astartes that is contradicted by the material in Codex Space Marines is now no longer valid. This is known as "retroactive continuity" which if anyone is wondering is defined as: "the deliberate changing of previously established facts in a work of fiction." Comparing, contrasting, finding consistency, none of that makes valid proof if it is contradicted by the most recent version of the material.

 

Therefore the only valid material you brought up is from the 5th Edition Codex and lets have a looksie:

 

Codex Space Marines, 5th Edition

Upon the Codex's implementation, each old Legion became a Chapter named for its forebearer plus a number of other new Chapters.

(...)

[Table]Legion: Space Wolves - Seccond Founding Chapters: Wolf Brothers

(...)

Most Chapters stick rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down for organisation, tactical roles and other processes. (...) A small number of Chapters are utterly different from the Codex, and owe nothing to it at all. The most famous of these wild Chapters is the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves have never followed the Codex Astartes - their strong willed Primarch moulded his Chapter very much in his own image, irrespective of other influences and doctrines.

 

Now contrary to your claim that does not say that all the Legions broke up. Nowhere does it say that. Note "each old Legion" does not mean "each and every old Legion" which would prove that all the Legions had broken up, but it doesn't say that. In fact before that it specifically says "almost all eventually accepted..." but not "all eventually accepted," so basically both segments of text do not specifically say all the Legions broke up, and to the contrary one even specifies the opposite. Additionally the new material specifies that the decree to break the Legions was in the Codex, not in addition to it, and that the Space Wolves have never accepted the Codex or owe anything to it. Those two pieces of information combined indicate that the Space Wolves did not in fact accept Guilliman's decrees.

 

That leaves us with the Chapter table, but that doesn't really tell us much. Only that the Wolf Brothers are ascribed as a successor Chapter to the Space Wolves Legion, whether that's a fact or not is a mystery, what the Wolf Brothers actually are is a mystery. At most the Wolf Brothers could simply have splintered off from the Space Wolves, which wouldn't mean the Space Wolves necessarily ever accepted the decrees themselves, the only way the existence of the Wolf Brothers would prove your claims Legatus is if the only possible means of their existence is acceptance of Guilliman's decrees. However that isn't the only possibility, there are many possibilities to explain their temporary existence.

 

Finally that the Space Wolves are called a Chapter isn't proof either, the concept of Chapters was not created by Guilliman, Chapters existed pre-heresy and a group of Space Marines being known as a Chapter does not mean Guilliman had anything to do with it.

 

So basically in no way does the material you quoted actually prove your point, to the contrary all the material actually tells us is utterly to the contrary of your primary claim. Which is, to remind everyone, as follows:

 

the initial decree to split up the Legions and limit the sizes of Marine forces is effective beyond that.

 

And I'm sorry Legatus but that's just not true. There is no material to even suggest that the decree to split the Legions was outside the bounds of the Codex. To the contrary we know specifically that the orders regarding the Space Marine Legions were wholly contained within the Codex. That is a fact and you have zero evidence to support your claims to the contrary.

 

So to recap:

 

We know for a fact Guilliman's orders were part of the Codex, not outside of it in any way with regards to the Space Marines, we also know for a fact that the Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex at all. That sentence would be impossible if the Space Wolves had truly accepted Guilliman's decrees and split as those decrees were inextricable parts of the Codex. To prove otherwise you have to show up to date textual evidence, that has not been retconned by new material and frankly you have not done that.