Question about Space Wolves

[Grey Mage]

Therefore the only valid material you brought up is from the 5th Edition Codex and lets have a looksie:

 

Codex Space Marines, 5th Edition

Upon the Codex's implementation, each old Legion became a Chapter named for its forebearer plus a number of other new Chapters.

(...)

[Table]Legion: Space Wolves - Seccond Founding Chapters: Wolf Brothers

(...)

Most Chapters stick rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down for organisation, tactical roles and other processes. (...) A small number of Chapters are utterly different from the Codex, and owe nothing to it at all. The most famous of these wild Chapters is the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves have never followed the Codex Astartes - their strong willed Primarch moulded his Chapter very much in his own image, irrespective of other influences and doctrines.

 

Now contrary to your claim that does not say that all the Legions broke up. Nowhere does it say that. Note "each old Legion" does not mean "each and every old Legion" which would prove that all the Legions had broken up, but it doesn't say that. In fact before that it specifically says "almost all eventually accepted..." but not "all eventually accepted," so basically both segments of text do not specifically say all the Legions broke up, and to the contrary one even specifies the opposite. Additionally the new material specifies that the decree to break the Legions was in the Codex, not in addition to it, and that the Space Wolves have never accepted the Codex or owe anything to it. Those two pieces of information combined indicate that the Space Wolves did not in fact accept Guilliman's decrees.

Ill note that the Space Wolves accepted the term "Chapter". This may be where the confusion lies. Or in that they allowed a successor chapter to be made, and the fluff on that is always indeterminate and vague as to where those marines came from and how they died- theres even a few bits of fluff from the EOT campaign that infer that there was no "Wolf Brothers" Chapter at all, but that they were the legendairy 13nth company, wich is partially supported by the recent HH short story.

[Legatus]

We know for a fact that the reforms were all part of the Codex, we know for a fact that the Space Wolves did not accept the Codex in any way,

All of that had been established in 2nd Edition.

 

therefore the Space Wolves cannot have been reformed into a Chapter by the Codex.

That was not the consequence in 2nd and 3rd Edition, so your conclusion is evidently wrong. You could say that the Space Wolves were split into two Chapters because it was expected of them, not because the Codex said so.

 

Any information from the older material such as Codex Ultramarines and the Index Astartes that is contradicted by the material in Codex Space Marines is now no longer valid.

Since the bits about the Space Wolves and the Codex are from 2nd Edition, that material is not contradicted by the new Codex Space Marines.

 

In fact before that it specifically says "almost all eventually accepted..." but not "all eventually accepted," so basically both segments of text do not specifically say all the Legions broke up, and to the contrary one even specifies the opposite.

That not all eventually accepted the necessity of the Codex does not specify that some Legions did not break up. Neither does the "Space Wolves not following the Codex" passage, as I have tried to explain.

 

Additionally the new material specifies that the decree to break the Legions was in the Codex, not in addition to it, and that the Space Wolves have never accepted the Codex or owe anything to it.

Again, that is NOT new material. That has all been established in 2nd Edition.

 

That leaves us with the Chapter table, but that doesn't really tell us much. Only that the Wolf Brothers are ascribed as a successor Chapter to the Space Wolves Legion, whether that's a fact or not is a mystery, what the Wolf Brothers actually are is a mystery. At most the Wolf Brothers could simply have splintered off from the Space Wolves, which wouldn't mean the Space Wolves necessarily ever accepted the decrees themselves, the only way the existence of the Wolf Brothers would prove your claims Legatus is if the only possible means of their existence is acceptance of Guilliman's decrees. However that isn't the only possibility, there are many possibilities to explain their temporary existence.

Since the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves and the Index Astartes about the Codex Astartes state that the Space Wolves were divided into the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers Chapter you would have to point towards a source that contradicted those accounts.

 

Finally that the Space Wolves are called a Chapter isn't proof either, the concept of Chapters was not created by Guilliman, Chapters existed pre-heresy and a group of Space Marines being known as a Chapter does not mean Guilliman had anything to do with it.

From the Index Astartes about the Codex Astartes:

"Where the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximiately one thousand fighting warriors. This corresponded to the existing unit called a Chapter, and in the future the Chapter was recognised as the standard autonomous Space Marine formation."

 

So basically, Guilliman took the existing "Chapter" formation as the model and made it the new standard form of a single autonomous Space Marine force.

 

But I know you have an aversion for old material, so tis is what the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines has to say:

"the most lasting and contentious decree of the Codex Astartes was that the existing Space Marine Legions be broken up into smaller organisations known as Chapters. (...) The Codex decreed that each Chapter would be a thousand battle-borthers strong and look to its own recruitment, training and equipment."

 

All the books, from every Edition since 2nd, explain that they previously were Legions, then they got reformed into Chapters, and it describes what such a Chapter is. (Also note that the 5th Edition statement about thousand battle brothers is incorrect.)

 

So basically in no way does the material you quoted actually prove your point, to the contrary all the material actually tells us is utterly to the contrary of your primary claim. Which is, to remind everyone, as follows:

 

the initial decree to split up the Legions and limit the sizes of Marine forces is effective beyond that.

And I'm sorry Legatus but that's just not true.

Hm, let's check the Index Astartes Black Templars:

"At the end of the Heresy, the Primarch Roboute Guilleman of the Ultramarines Legion devised a military organisation that would spread the power of the Legiones Astartes, Imperial Navy and Imperial Army across the galaxy, so no longer would one individual wield the power of an entire Legion again. For Space Marines, these rules were laid down in the Codex Astartes"

So, what I said. The decision to limit the power a single individual in the Imperium could have was much more than just a change for Space Marine formations. They were but one part of the Imperial forces that were reorganised, and for them it was described in the book that describes all aspects of Space Marines, the Codex Astartes. Or is the Index Astartes outdated too?

 

So to recap:

 

We know for a fact Guilliman's orders were part of the Codex,

Yes, as established way back in 2nd Edition.

 

not outside of it in any way with regards to the Space Marines,

Wrong, see above. The endeavor to limit the power of autonomous imperial forces was far more than just limiting Space Marine formation sizes.

 

we also know for a fact that the Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex at all.

Yes. As had also been established in 2nd Edition.

 

That sentence would be impossible if the Space Wolves had truly accepted Guilliman's decrees and split as those decrees were inextricable parts of the Codex.

And yet it was of no consequence to the Space Wolves splitting into two Chapters when the same sentence was given in 2nd Edition or 3rd Edition, each with specific descriptions of the Space Wolves Legion splitting into the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers Chapter. You are simply misunderstanding the sentence and take it for more than it actually is. The Space Wolves were reformed into a Chapter, and that very sentence even refers to them as such. But as a Chapter they do not care for what the Codex says a Chapter should look like and should do. They have 12 companies instead of 10, and their companies are slightly bigger. The companies are mixed and all similar, and not dedicated to specific tasks.

 

The Codex describes a weakness in the former gene-seed procedure, and how to counter that weakness. I see no reason to doubt that the Space Wolves would be very interrested to prevent such an exploitable weakness. But they would be adhering to the suggested procedures because it makes sense and is in their own interrest, not because the Codex suggests it. Likewise, splitting up into Chapters was required, and not conforming was not tolerated. The Space Wolves were split into two Chapters because it was expected of them, not because it was what the Codex said.

They do NOT do the opposite of what the Codex says or things in a deliberately different way than is described in the Codex just because of some form of defiance. They do not heed the word of the Codex or look to it for guidance, but if they happened to realize that some of the practices are usefull they would adopt them, and if some of the elements described in it are imperial decrees instead of guidelines and suggestions, they will comply.

 

To prove otherwise you have to show up to date textual evidence, that has not been retconned by new material and frankly you have not done that.

Technically that includes all the 2nd and 3rd Edition sources I quoted (not minding the 5th Edition sources for a moment), since they so far were not contradicted by current material.

[Megalodon]

Now let me throw a little weight in here.

 

Let's start off with what we know from the fluff. The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion during the Great Crusade. After the Horus Heresy the Wolves were only split once into the ill fated Wolf Brothers.

 

The Space Wolves do not follow the Codex Astartes. A standard space marine chapter has 10 companies while the Wolves have 12 Great Companies plus the Company of the Great Wolf which is said to be effectively another company.

 

Each Great Company has its own headquarters and territory within the Space Wolves massive fortress the Fang. With its own Spacecraft, weapons, forges and other facilities. In almost all respects, its a separate, self-sufficient body of Warriors.

 

It would make sense that the Space Wolves have more marines than a standard chapter. I would also venture a guess that a Great Company is larger than a standard one.

 

With all this in mind, I would use the numbers for a Great Company from the old Epic Space Marine game as a starting point. Here are the contents of the Space Wolf cards from "Armies of the Imperium".

 

The Great Company data card is the basic element of your army it includes:

 

1 Wolf Lord

20 Wolf Guard

12 Grey Hunter packs (24 bases of 5)

 

SO full strength a Great Company includes 140 Space Wolves before adding BC's and LF's.

 

You can then add up to 5 of the following to make up the rest of the Great Company. (Now keep in mind from a current fluff perspective GH should be the most numerous type of pack in the Great Company.)

 

30 Blood Claws (6 bases of 5) or 3 full packs of 10 (remember this was before the first Wolf dex)

30 Long Fangs (6 bases of 5) or 3 full packs of 10 (remember this was before the first Wolf dex)

10 BC bikers (5 bases of 2) or 1 full pack

Tank squad of 3 tanks

Speeder squadron of 5 landspeeders

 

So lets just assume we take one of each the BC's and the LF's. That would put a conservative Great Company around 200 Space Wolves. With the Chapter probably maxing out around 2500 Space Wolves.

 

The problem in getting numbers is that the Space Wolves are not codex and so don’t follow hard and fast rules for numbers… so the above would be a rough estimate that I will work towards myself, and then add the odd extra pack here or there just for grins.

 

I would also note that during my research on SW's, I'm unsure where in the Space Wolf chapter the Wolf Scouts belong. In the 2nd ed codex they were listed as part of the Company of the Great Wolf, but in the current codex they are not. The scouts are also not mentioned in the description of the Great Company in the current codex either.

 

 

Lastly the term Chapter is used by all post heresy Marine forces.

[Legatus]

The Space Marine Epic information is very interresting, and I have already commented on it above. From my short look into the book I could not figure out how the armies are constructed.

 

I somehow have figured out that a regular Codex Battle Company is comprised of one tactical detachment, one assault and one devastator detachment, each detachment consisting of 6 stands (so 30 guys).

 

A Greatcompany starts with the Wolf Guard and I think two "packs" of Grey Hunters, where one pack equals 10 stands (50 guys, a "pack" here being obviously compareable to a "detachment" of a Codex Chapter, not a single "squad"), but some of my info comes from a netEpic booklet, so perhaps they changed the sizes of those "packs"? A Space Wolves force could then get up to 5 "support cards", and that is where I lost track. Each support card can be used to buy an additional "pack". It could be one pack of Grey Hunters (another 50 guys) or one pack of Blood Claws (being 5 stands so 25 guys IIRC) or various other units like Long Fangs or Land Speeders or Bikes. But it says that those 5 support cards are the "normal support cards allowance", so I am not sure whether a battle company could also get additional units via these support cards, but I did not see any rules for it.

 

 

I think the US White Dwarf issue 244 or issue 246, which was released around the time where the 3rd Edition Codex Space Wolves was released, is supposed to contain some information on Space Wolves Great Companies, but I do not have access to them.

 

The Lexicanum puts a Great Company at about 120 men, but the soucres for the article are not properly cited, and I was not able to find any such reference in the Space Wolves books I have.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Space Wolves have little to nothing to do with the Codex. I thought I read somewhere that the Wolfbrother's were successors only in the fact that they had SW geneseed. I am not even sure they were of Fenris or came from planets unknown.

 

The Chart shown with the Successor chapter list has never been a guide about who followed the Codex 1k Sons decree; it is a guide of successor Chapters. No more and no less. Find me something more solid on the Wolfbrothers that I dont know about and I could change my mind there but nothing definitive is said one way or the other and generally the things that are stated about them are in opposition.

 

Sure Codex and Wolves both train recruits. the guard trains recruits. even real life military's train recruits! Oh my Emperor! I am sure even in the Great Crusade the Emperor had a training cadre/program for his military. Wait, NO! Couldnt have! Codex wasnt invented yet. Basic military training principles similar? No way! There was no qualification for becoming a Marine back then; heck they placed geneseed into random Bolter and Chainsword users and said "Hack away!" In the Grim Darkness of the Future there are only Nerds :drool:

 

Although this material has been retconned by more recent books, Space Wolf geneseed wouldnt need things such as Basic Military Training to prevent the lure of Chaos; Wulfen was already built in.

 

Legatus: I've seen no aversions to the old fluff here as opposed to certain statements you given about how Rogue Trader fluff doesnt count for anything in other threads; the aversion is to the need of the Ultramarines to have everyone bow down to the edicts of their Primarch as if the Emperor himself gave them. Yeah it is Guilliman's Prime Directive. HIS OWN. He made it up for himself, disregarding the previous mandates and orders from the Emperor himself on how the Astartes are to be formed and their mandate/powers, instead making up his own out of fear from the loss of the Emperor/leadership vacuum and the devastation of the Heresy. Personally I've argued for it making sense in 40k terms, but Guilliman took it upon himself to do so and without assistance, directive or guidance.

 

Did the Wolves ever break down? I dont see anywhere it says they specifically have or have not. Given that the Space Wolves still use the Great Company format (which is what they used during the Great Crusade if the 13th Company fluff is any indication) and the fact they still use this Great Company demarkations would suggest that their structure hasnt changed at all. It is only reasonable to think that considering they have eschewed the Codex in EVERY other way that is known and kept their old structure that they wouldnt have broken up their forces either. That is just speculation but it would only make sense.

[Legatus]

Space Wolves have little to nothing to do with the Codex. I thought I read somewhere that the Wolfbrother's were successors only in the fact that they had SW geneseed. I am not even sure they were of Fenris or came from planets unknown.

 

The Chart shown with the Successor chapter list has never been a guide about who followed the Codex 1k Sons decree; it is a guide of successor Chapters. No more and no less. Find me something more solid on the Wolfbrothers that I dont know about and I could change my mind there but nothing definitive is said one way or the other and generally the things that are stated about them are in opposition.

I am not aware of a lot of sources on the Wolf Brothers. If anyone knows sources please chime in. The 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves states that since the Space Wolves were such a small Legion they were only divided once, which resulted in the ill fated Wolf Brothers as their only Successor Chapter. The Index Astartes article about the Codex Astartes states that the Space Wolves were divided into only two Chapters.

 

Legatus: I've seen no aversions to the old fluff here

My the 2nd and 3rd Edition sources have repeatedly been dismissed as out of date and retconed, even though they said teh exact same things in some cases.

 

Did the Wolves ever break down? I dont see anywhere it says they specifically have or have not.

I refer back to the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves and the 3rd Edition Index Astartes article about the Codex Astartes.

 

Given that the Space Wolves still use the Great Company format (which is what they used during the Great Crusade if the 13th Company fluff is any indication) and the fact they still use this Great Company demarkations would suggest that their structure hasnt changed at all.

If you have the term "Chapter", which refers to a roughly 1000 men formation, and "Great Company", which let's say originally also refered to a 1000 men formation, then a "Chapter" that uses multiple "Great Companies" obviously uses one of those terms in a lose manner. Obviously I know what some of the participants here think about that, but I provided two sources that describe the division of the Space Wolves Legion into the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers Chapter, so one of the two is actually supported by fluff.

Let me put it this way: Either the Space Wolves still use their term "Great Company" for their (non Codex) companies of slightly larger size out of a sense for tradition, or they are sneaky gits who pretended to reform into a "Chapter" when they actually kept Legion formation (and nobody bothered to check). B)

 

It is only reasonable to think that considering they have eschewed the Codex in EVERY other way that is known and kept their old structure that they wouldnt have broken up their forces either. That is just speculation but it would only make sense.

Well, earlier material was quite specific. You would have to find a passage that specifically explained that they did not split up. Not that the Space Wolves "owe nothing to the Codex and do not follow it at all". That is 2nd Edition material and did not stop them from splitting up back then either.

[Megalodon]

Given that the Space Wolves still use the Great Company format (which is what they used during the Great Crusade if the 13th Company fluff is any indication) and the fact they still use this Great Company demarkations would suggest that their structure hasnt changed at all.

If you have the term "Chapter", which refers to a roughly 1000 men formation, and "Great Company", which let's say originally also refered to a 1000 men formation, then a "Chapter" that uses multiple "Great Companies" obviously uses one of those terms in a lose manner. Obviously I know what some of the participants here think about that, but I provided two sources that describe the division of the Space Wolves Legion into the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers Chapter, so one of the two is actually supported by fluff.

Let me put it this way: Either the Space Wolves still use their term "Great Company" for their (non Codex) companies of slightly larger size out of a sense for tradition, or they are sneaky gits who pretended to reform into a "Chapter" when they actually kept Legion formation (and nobody bothered to check). :devil:

I think some of my brothers are overreaching a bit in regards to the Wolf Brothers split. I have no doubt that the split happened, but who's to say that Russ and the Wolf Priests didn't hand picked the most flawed/unbalanced marines of the Legion to create the Wolf Brothers. Knowing full well that they'd be a failure without the rest of the Space Wolves there to balance them out. They may have had the hope that they would be reintegrated back into the Space Wolves.

 

I vote that Russ was cunning like a Wolf, he relented and split the Space Wolves only to keep the peace. He then told everyone to stuff it when it came to restructuring!

[Legatus]

How any Chapter is organised is rather inconsequential. The question is whether the Space Wolves complied with the limitation of power, which is all that really mattered during the second founding, so whether they had a size of somewhere around 1500 (which is still within borderline reasonable limits) or whether they kept semi-legion strength of 3000+, or anything in between.

From the background about the division into the Space Wolves and the Wolf Brothers I would consider it a given that the Space Wolves were not very much larger than an average Chapter at the time of the second founding. The question would then be whether they might have grown in size over the past millenia. To that I can only say, they are not secretive or spread over the whole galaxy as some other Chapters might be.

[Megalodon]

The bottom line is until GW spills the beans this is a circular conversion, full of differing opinions based on 20 years of vague fluff. The closest numbers we have access to are the old Epic Space marine cards which put a GC well over 100 marines.

 

BTW: I dug out my Armies of the Imperium and I was wrong on the numbers on the GC card.

 

The Great Company data card has 10 GH packs not 12; 12 is the number of Rhinos. :pirate:

 

20 Wolf Guard

10 Grey Hunter packs (20 bases of 5)

12 Rhinos

 

So a full strength Great Company includes 120 Space Wolves before adding BC's and LF's.

[Legatus]

How do support cards work for regular Codex Battle Companies? Do they have the same "regular support cards allowance of 5".

[leonlynch]

I always believed that Scouts did not count towards the nominal 1,000 Marines in a standard chapter as they are not yet full Marines and the number of recruits could fluctuate so much. As Scouts are initiates for the other chapters then by the same logic Blood Claws would not count towards the overall number of Space Wolf Marines either.

 

In addition to the those within the Great Companies there are the Blood Claws that are still back at the fang awaiting assignment after receiving their gene seed and equipment so they may simply be part of the home retinue assigned to missions and support where needed. Ragnar and his team accompanied an Inquisitor on a mission before being assigned to a Great Company so it is cetainly possible that other teams would be lending their weight to offworld campaigns before being full marines.

 

Do members of the Wolfblade count? What about those on assignment to the Deathwatch or a Rogue Trader retinue? What of those who are acting as instructors at Rusvik or the other camps? There was a team of Space Wolves guarding the spear at Garm. Are these part of the roster or are they extra?

 

Add to this the 13th Company, by which I refer to great companies that have left Fenris, and the overall number could be double or more the strength on paper.

 

Note that I am not trying to demean the Blood Claw simply saying that they may exist in a form of red tape limbo in order to keep the reported strength of the Wolves at an artificially low level. We have no way of knowing how things work in a fictional universe but if I was a headstrong battle leader I would happily twist the wording of any decree I did not support to my advantage. If billions of Sisters of Battle do not count as "men under arms" to get past the decree passive and codex Scouts don't count as Marines then it is logical that the Blood Claws would also be exempt from the head count.

 

As a real world example, in some current organisations permanant staff are paid from one budget line while consultants and temporary staff come from another so that the reported strength of the workforce is lower than the number of staff working there. Where I work this happens all the time, and my own team consists of 17 staff but has 22 people working there as 5 of those people, whilst they undertake the same role, do not count towards the numbers of staff due to the manner of their employ.

[Legatus]

I do think Scouts are counted towards a Chapter's size, as are Blood Claws.

 

 

I dug up another netEpic rulebook, maybe the rules are custom changed, I don't know, but from what I can tell, all Marine companies have access to 5 support cards. So while a basic Great Company of about 120 men could get 5 additional choices of either 50 Grey Hunters, 25 Blood Claws, 20 Long Fangs or 30 Wolf Scouts each, a regular Codex Battle Company of 90 men could get 5 additional choices of either 30 extra Tacticals, Assault Marines, Devastators, Veterans, Scouts or 20 Terminators each.

I probably still haven't figured out how it all works out exactly. How does the Space Wolves support cards are to be interpreted as opposed to a Codex company support cards when it comes to company composition background? Is the Epic army description saying anythong about where those additional support units are taken from? Also note that at least in 2nd Edition 40K, the Scouts were part of the Company of the Great Wolf, back when they were still the new recruits as with any other Chapter. Since one of the support cards is a Wolf Scouts pack, I suspect that they are not all supposed to come from the Great Company for which they are bought as support.

 

Edit: I see that appearently a Codex Chapter force is somewhat restricted in where the support detachments are taken from. Also, the Wolf Scouts seem to be part of the Great Companies after all.

[Grey Mage]

Theyre part of the Great Wolfs company, and assigned out... kinda like how a Rhino is part of the armory, but its also part of the battle company that uses it eh?

[Legatus]

I guess it depends on the Edition. <_<

 

Well, my problem is that I do not fully understand how the support card system works and is to be interpreted in terms of how those cards correspond to background. So can you just take the 120 basic great company and then slap five additional grey hunter packs on top for a total of 370 (all Grey Hunters)? Or are support packs/detachments not considered of coming from the same company they are bought for, as is obviously the case for Codex companies? And the additional packs are not the only option for support cards. Space Wolves have their own Infantry cards, and do not take those of a regular Chapter, but they have access to the same vehicel cards. An average force will probably not consist of only infantry, but might spend two support cards on predators and dreadnoughts. Or how about some Whirlwinds? That's two less cards for extra infantry. Some bikes? Even fewer extra infantry. And does the infantry, for example in teh case of additional scouts, is supposed to come from the same company?

 

That is my one concern. The other one remains that just like with the simplified "three detachments of 30" form of a Codex Company, the numbers for Space Wolves packs are simple approximations.

 

A Great Company (120) with an additional one Blood Claw pack (25), one Long Fang pack (20), one Wolf Scouts pack (30), one Predator Squadron and one Dreadnought squad would be 195 men.

[Grey Mage]

Well since SW GCs only ever borrow from the great wolfs GC it would seem that all of those would be considered within a single GC.

[Legatus]

If multiple Greatcompanies fought together in the same campaign, but without the Great Wolf, would one of the Wolf Lords take overall command? The one with seniority perhaps? Such a thought might seem anathema to the individuality attributed to the great Companies and their Wolf Lords, but on the other hand it makes sense that all elements from the Space Wolves Chapter would fight united, and not everyone for himself.

[Grey Mage]

It wouldnt be one GC then, but two. They would in fact likely work together and support each other... otherwise theres no reason to be in the same theatre eh?

 

But it would still be two great companies, not one+borrowed units.

[SamaNagol]

There is no consistent information in existence that gives any sort of accurate size of a SW Great company. They vary grealty even within the Chapter so to correctly estimate the size of the Chapter as a whole is an impossibility. But they are huge. Remember there would be no reason why the size of the Legion would drop drastically after the Heresy. They weren't involved in any huge loss inflicting battles nor were they split into Chapters. And over the 10,000 years subsequently they wouldn't just lose huge amounts of gene seed and suddenly shrink to just over 1000 marines after being in the 10's of thousands.

 

It would only be right to assume that they dwarf the size of practically every chapter out there apart from one or two.

[Legatus]

Well, they fought the Thousand Sons, and perhaps they were expecially ferroucious (=reckless) in hunting down the remaining traitor forces when they were chasing them and drove them into the eye of terror. According to early sources they were only split into two chapters because they had allways been a compareably small Legion. (I thought I had exhaustively discussed that they did split into Chapters.)

[Vodunius]

The original Codex Titanicus also puts them on Tallarn - one of the bloodiest campaigns of the heresy.