Wound allocation and spent/unspent combi weapons

[derekbadger]

For the purposes of wound allocation how are models with combi weapons treated in terms of uniqueness in a squad?

 

For example a unit of 5 sternguard with :

 

2 combi-meltas

2 combi-flamers

sgt with bolter

 

When assigning wounds :

 

do you differentiate between the models that have different combi-weapons,

 

do you differentiate between models that have the same combi-weapons but where one model has shot his combi part of the weapon. (i.e., one empty combi flamer and one combi flamer with the shot still available)

[Cedric]

Since these models are functionally different, you might as well differentiate between all of them for wond allocation purposes.

[Captain Malachi]

So what you're asking is: Once you've fired a single combi-flamer and a single combi-melta, are there now 5 unique models in the unit?

 

I don't think so. The model is still just a model with a combi-flamer, the fact that he's used it doesn't change that. (I understand in my head why unfortunately I'm having trouble typing it out, I'll get back to you later)

[gil galed]

I think that really a combi weapon is a one use piece of wargear, once its used they don't count as being armed with it any more just being armed with a bolter.

 

So i'd say 3 unique models and 2 the same (Used combi weapons)

[tastytaste]

I think you would stretching the rules once the combi is used. Now the combi is just returned to a normal bolter. What really makes the model different from the rest once the combi is gone? Now if you only use one of the meltas or one of the flamers you created another different model for wound allocation e.g. normal bolter guy.

[ShinyRhino]

I would vote on the side of the combi becoming the same as a bolter once fired. There are advantages to doing it each way, as every model can die to a bad roll.

The hard part is indicating and remembering which models have fired their combi, and which haven't. it's a nightmare of chits, beans, stones, or dice scattered all around that unit. Blech.

 

This is definitely one of those grey-area rules you should ask your opponent about before the game starts.

[Aidoneus]

You calculate which models are "functionally separate" based on their status at the beginning of the game. This does not change due to once-per-game effects like using combi-weapons. However, since a combi-melta is clearly different from a combi-flamer, those are obviously functionally different models.

 

If you said used combi-weapons made models functionally different, you'd be opening a whole can of worms. For instance, in a unit of multi-wound models, any model that had already taken a wound would count as functionally distinct. Also, any model within 12" of a Culexus Assassin or Pariah would count as functionally different, due to their lowered Ld. This is pure silliness, and obviously not what was intended.

[nighthawks]

agreed with Aidoneus. a used combi-wepaon is still a combi weapon, just as an unloaded pistol is still a pistol. it's usefulness does not change the weapon description, and it can be assumed that the cost of the weapon includes this benefit (wound allocation).

[Commander Sasha]

I have started converting my bases; instead of decorative appearance, I am going for unit and weapon markings; for complex models I might try making pegs that fit into holes in their base: 3x Life pegs for my captain, 1 for her Combiflamer.

 

I already have removable Storm bolters, HK missiles and tank guns, this is just an extrapolation!

[Legatus]

You calculate which models are "functionally separate" based on their status at the beginning of the game. This does not change due to once-per-game effects like using combi-weapons.

I disagree. The rules for compley units on page 25 describe how models are "grouped" according to being "identical in gaming terms". A Marine that can still fire a Melta shot an a Marine that cannot are definitely not identical in gaming terms.

[Isiah]

This is an interesting question.

 

In terms of weapons the rules say, models are considered being identical in gaming terms if they have:

 

'[...] same special rules and same weapons and wargear.'

 

The distinction here being that a model with a combi-weapon is different to another model with a bolter – whether he has fired the combi-part or not – because by raw he has both a different weapon and different wargear.

[Legatus]

That is if you take that as "on paper" special rules, weapons and wargear or as "available" special rules, weapons and wargear.

 

On paper, a Marine with a spent combi melta still has that combi melta. But will the model act any different in the game than a Marine armed with a boltgun? Can it use any different kind of wargear or weapon than a normal Marine with a boltgun could? Or are both "identical in gaming terms" at that point? Isn't the "melta" at that point similar to purity seals or personal back pack banners as far as the game is concerned?

[Captain Malachi]

No, because he still has a combi-melta, he just can't fire it again.

[rat of vengence]

But used or not, that combi-melta is still there. The marine is still identically equipped as the other marine with a combi-melta. Whether has fired his one shot weapon or not is irrelevant, because he still is equipped with it.

 

RoV

[Mal]

Exactly, the rule doesn't ask if they have a different piece of wargear that they can use, it asks if they have a different piece of wargear, no mention is made to if its able to be used or not.

 

So by RAW a model who has fired his combi melta is still armed with the same equipment as his mate who hasn't fired his combi melta...

 

After all the melta part doesn't just explode or drop off once its fired, its built into the bolter, the only way to get rid of it is to loose the whole weapon, and there is NO game mechanic that allows you to do that.

[Cedric]

Just to throw a spanner in the works, 2 BT techmarines each with a holy handgrenade are in the same squad.

One throws the Holy Handgrenade at the enemy, who being naughty in His sight, shall snuff it.

 

The following turn they are all shot to bits by the snuffed enemy's pals.

 

Are the BT grenadier functionally different from his brother Techmarine who still holds his grenade when being shot?

[shatter]

I've seen this argued before. GW stated a spent combi is different. i.e. a spent combi is different wargear to an unspent.

 

Don't ask me for where and when, I don't keep track.

 

edit* word tense.

[Mal]

I've seen this argued before. GW stated a spent combi is different. i.e. a spent combi is different wargear to an unspent.

 

Don't ask me for where and when, I don't keep track.

 

edit* word tense.

 

We'll need that in a FAQ or it doesn't matter...

 

And as for the 'spent' grenade, they would still be considered the same.

 

Until someone can post in clear black and white writing in a GW FAQ, then spent and unspent makes no difference as there is no game mechanic to remove a weapon from an infantry model. And as such if they are armed with a piece of wargear at any point during teh game, then they are always armed with it for the whole game...

 

Ther only difference is if they can use it again, but that dioesn't matter for wound allocation.

[shatter]

When wargear is different, it's different. A spent combi PLAYS different. - it is different. QED.

[Legatus]

Until someone can post in clear black and white writing in a GW FAQ, then spent and unspent makes no difference as there is no game mechanic to remove a weapon from an infantry model.

I disagree. Having a plasma shot availablle or not does make a difference, and the combi weapon rules describe that the special weapon can only be used once per game, so you got your rules right there. A Marine with combi weapon that has already been used is definitely not identical with a Marine with an unused combi weapon. They have different stats/rules/options at that point, so their gear is at that point obviously not identical.

[DevianID]

I think the RAW of the matter is clear. The BRB makes a distinction based on the weapons and wargear. There is no rule saying that after a combi-weapon has fired the weapon changes type, therefore he still counts as being armed with a combi weapon. The rules do not care if the model's ingame 'capabilities' are different, if their profile and wargear are the same.

 

IE, a unit of 2 multimelta attack bikes take a single unsaved wound. The wounded bike is clearly different than the unwounded bike. However, the profile and the weapons are still the same, despite an in-game functional difference.

 

IE, a unit of sternguard with 2 combimeltas, one spent one still active, are clearly different in terms of in-game functional difference. However, they still have the same profile and same wargear.

 

And if it makes you feel better, say the above 2 sternguard with combi meltas take 2 wounds. If you fail both, then both would die, regardless of whether you rolled seperate or not. If you fail one, then you can pick the unspent melta if you keep them grouped together, but if you roll seperate and fail 1 then you have no control over which dies, and finally if you pass both then again it doesnt matter if you rolled seperate or not. THUS, it is more beneficial overall for the combi-meltas to stay in the same group (aka per RAW) when some are spent and some are unspent when taking large numbers of armor saves.

[Legatus]

There is no rule saying that after a combi-weapon has fired the weapon changes type

But there is a rule saying that a combi-weapons special weapon can only be fired once per game. That means once it has been fired, it can not be fired again. That means you would have to keep in mind, write down or mark the model with a combi weapon that has already fired it, because it would now not be allowed to fire it again during the game and you would be cheating if you used it again, even if it was not on purpose. The properties of the model's wargear have changed, and it is now different from a model with combi-wepaon that has not already used it during this game.

 

When a piece of wargear is expendable, then a model that has not expended that piece of wargear and a model that has done so can not be considered to have the same wargear at that point.

[Mal]

But the rules do not allow a model to loose a piece of wargear, just run out of ammo for it, but in RAW they are still considered to be armed with it.

 

For wound allocation purposes it doesn't matter if the piece of wargear may be used or not, only that they have it.

 

And when you buy a combi weapon, you are buying ONE weapon, and only 1 weapon, it may have 2 profiles but it is still a single piece of wargear. So even with one profile expended, you still have the same piece of wargear. You jusy may not fire it again, but as stated that doesn't matter for the porposes of wound allocation, which is hat this thread is all about.

[DevianID]

The properties of the model's wargear have changed, and it is now different from a model with combi-wepaon that has not already used it during this game

 

Just like a wounded attack bike is different from an unwounded attack bike. Are you advocating that a wounded attack bike counts as a seperate model type than the unwounded attack bikes?

[Legatus]

But the rules do not allow a model to loose a piece of wargear, just run out of ammo for it, but in RAW they are still considered to be armed with it.

I disagree. By RAW an already fired combi weapon is treated differently than one that has not already fired. At that point, the marine with the spent combi melta and the one with the unused one are not having identical wargear. It is expendable wargear, and is described in the rules as such, and one of the models has expended his, while the other has not. It is different wargear at that point.

 

Just like a wounded attack bike is different from an unwounded attack bike. Are you advocating that a wounded attack bike counts as a seperate model type than the unwounded attack bikes?

There are actually rules for units of multiple wound models and how already wounded models are treated. The model that is already wounded has to get the next single suffered wound allocated to it and has to be removed. An instant killing wound would have to go on a "full" attack bike instead.