Wound allocation and spent/unspent combi weapons

[Mal]

But the rules do not allow a model to loose a piece of wargear, just run out of ammo for it, but in RAW they are still considered to be armed with it.

I disagree. By RAW an already fired combi weapon is treated differently than one that has not already fired. At that point, the marine with the spent combi melta and the one with the unused one are not having identical wargear. It is expendable wargear, and is described in the rules as such, and one of the models has expended his, while the other has not. It is different wargear at that point.

 

So what your saying is a combi-melta ceases to be a combi-melta once fired?

 

Remember were working on purposes of wound allocation, NOT how the wargear behaves ingame...

 

I fail to see how you can justify by RAW a combi-melta ceasing to be a combi-melta.... EVER.

 

So what if it cannot fire again, its still a combi-melta.

 

In terms of shooting, your right... in terms of wound allocation... your not.

[Cedric]

It's a spent combi melta, just as a fired HK missile is still a piece of a vehicle's wargear in terms of weapon destroyed (or so I believe??)

 

Being a spent combi melta, it is different from an unfired combi melta, and a bolter.

[Legatus]

So what your saying is a combi-melta ceases to be a combi-melta once fired?

I am saying that an expended combi-melta is not identical in gaming terms to a not expended combi-melta. They are different. One can be fired as a melta, the other cannot. How is that identical?

[Mal]

Were just talking about identical wargear... a combi-melta is a combi-melta, just because its been fired doesn't stop it being a combi-melta.

[Trekari]

Except your definition is not acceptable, given that GW saw fit to define it themselves in the rulebook.

 

The rules for taking saving throws and removing

casualties, as presented so far, assume that all the

models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms.

By this we mean they have the same profile of

characteristics, the same special rules and the same

weapons and wargear.

 

As far as the game is concerned, and this is the point which you're missing, "identical in gaming terms" specifically and only means: same special rules, same weapons and wargear.

 

They still HAVE the same weapon. The fact that one has used part of the combi-weapon does not make it a different weapon. If my friend and I each have an M4 with a M240 grenade launcher attached under-barrel, and he fires his and I don't fire mine...do we still have the M4/M240? Did his weapon physically change into a different weapon?

[Cedric]

As has been pointed out, there's a difference between loaded and unloaded, since one can still shoot.

Thus making the bearers of the weapons non-identical in game terms.

[SeattleDV8]

Not really , both the fired and unfired Combi-weapon are still both combi-weapons.

The ammo doesn't change that.

[Legatus]

So if you got an empty gun and your duel opponent got a loaded gun it would be a perfectly fair fight, as you are both equipped identically, right? :drool: Because a gun is a gun.

[Cedric]

Le's say you have 2 marines with combi weapons, one fires and the other doesnt.

 

Then one gets shot and dies. Obviously you want to discard the ammoless one.

How do you determine which one to remove, without having a difference between them? Roll a dice and hope for luck?

[Legatus]

There are rules for that kind of situation...

[rat of vengence]

As has been pointed out, there's a difference between loaded and unloaded, since one can still shoot.

Thus making the bearers of the weapons non-identical in game terms.

Don't just use the sentence that supports your argument. The rest of the quote was:

 

By this we mean they have the same profile or

characteristics, the same special rules and the same

weapons and wargear.

 

Lets take our two sternguard. One has fired his combi-whatever, the other hasn't. Both still have the same profile and characteristics. Both still have the same special rules. Both still have the same weapons and wargear regardless of whether it can be fired again. It still is the same in your army list and points tally isn't it? :P

 

I think some are wanting a way to minimise casualties this way... ;)

 

RoV

[Legatus]

Both still have the same weapons and wargear regardless of whether it can be fired again.

And some people will not agree that a weapon without ammunition and a weapon with ammunition constitute identical wargear. The rules for this particular weapon at least describe that they will not work the same way.

[Mal]

And some people will not agree that a weapon without ammunition and a weapon with ammunition constitute identical wargear. The rules for this particular weapon at least describe that they will not work the same way.

 

And yet both still have identical profile, rules and even the same name...

 

But thats what i've been saying...

 

There is no differentation in the rules about being able to use the wargear, they simply need to have it!

 

Its not always a good rule... its not always a bad rule... unfortunately its open to abuse... but then most rules are.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that when you buy a combi-weapon you get just that, a combi-weapon...

Your not buying a boltgun and a seperate piece of wargear that disspaears after use... your buying a combi-weapon..

 

And fired or not, they still have the exact same rules and profile IN GAME TERMS.

 

The weapon does not change when fired, the rules do not change when fired, the profile does not change when fired. NOTHING CHANGES WHEN FIRED.

 

Now im worry if im comming across too strongly here... but seriously now mate, i've been repeating the same thing in every post so far... and you've yet to show me a single rule to counter it. Until you do, your faced with the undisputed fact that a weapon does not, and can not change mid-game. Which means there is no difference betwen 2 identical marines, one with a spent combi and one with an in-spent... in game terms they are still identical, in wargear and in rules.

[Legatus]

The weapon does not change when fired, the rules do not change when fired, the profile does not change when fired. NOTHING CHANGES WHEN FIRED.

"The bolter can be fired every turn, but the secondary weapon can only be fired once per battle."

- Codex Space Marines, page 97, Combi-Weapons

 

What that means is this: A Marine with an unused Combi-Melta can fire it as a Meltagun. A Marine with an already used Combi-Melta can NOT fire it as a Meltagun. Since the rules under which the items operates at that point are different, and they cannot be used in the same way, their wargear is not identical. It makes a difference whether the Marine with the fresh Combi-Melta is killed or whether it is the one with the spent Combi-Melta, which would not be the case if they were indeed identically equipped.

[Mal]

Please explain to me at which point the combi-weapons have a different profile, rules set or description.

 

You'll find that a spent combi-weapon has the exact same profile, exact same rules and the exact same description as an unfired combi-weapon.

 

As such they are identical in game terms. As I have been trying to explain to you, the rules make no distinction for wargear between spent and unspent combi-weapons.

 

They have IDENTICAL profile, rules and description, and thus are considered to be the same for the purposes of wound allocation.

 

What that means is this: A Marine with an unused Combi-Melta can fire it as a Meltagun. A Marine with an already used Combi-Melta can NOT fire it as a Meltagun. Since the rules under which the items operates at that point are different, and they cannot be used in the same way, their wargear is not identical. It makes a difference whether the Marine with the fresh Combi-Melta is killed or whether it is the one with the spent Combi-Melta, which would not be the case if they were indeed identically equipped.

 

Yes the weapon may not be fired a second time, but the rules do not change mid-game. the rules for a spent combi-melta say it can only be fired one... the rules for an unpsent combi-melta say it can only be fired once....

 

Please point out the difference in the rules which makes them count as a different piece of wargear.

[rat of vengence]

The weapon does not change when fired, the rules do not change when fired, the profile does not change when fired. NOTHING CHANGES WHEN FIRED.

"The bolter can be fired every turn, but the secondary weapon can only be fired once per battle."

- Codex Space Marines, page 97, Combi-Weapons

 

What that means is this: A Marine with an unused Combi-Melta can fire it as a Meltagun. A Marine with an already used Combi-Melta can NOT fire it as a Meltagun. Since the rules under which the items operates at that point are different, and they cannot be used in the same way, their wargear is not identical. It makes a difference whether the Marine with the fresh Combi-Melta is killed or whether it is the one with the spent Combi-Melta, which would not be the case if they were indeed identically equipped.

 

But the marine with an unused combi-melta, and the marine with the used combi-melta, are still both equipped with combi-meltas. They are both still carrying the same weapons and wargear. Nowhere in the rules does it say a combi-melta that has had the melta shot no longer counts as a combi-melta.

 

RoV

[Legatus]

You'll find that a spent combi-weapon has the exact same profile, exact same rules and the exact same description as an unfired combi-weapon.

That is not what I find. I find that an unused Combi-Melta can be fired as a Meltagun, while a used Combi-Melta cannot be fired as a Meltagun. That is not really exactly the same, is it? I get that from the rules for Combi-Weapons.

 

But the marine with an unused combi-melta, and the marine with the used combi-melta, are still both equipped with combi-meltas. They are both still carrying the same weapons and wargear.

 

Combi-Melta = Combi-Melta, this is incorrect

 

--> Spent Combi-Melta != unused Combi-Melta

 

Nowhere in the rules does it say a combi-melta that has had the melta shot no longer counts as a combi-melta.

The rules explain that a Combi-Melta that has spent it's Melta shot can no longer be fired as a Melta. It is therefor different from a Combi-Melta that has not fired it's Melta shot. The rules don't spell that out word for word, but it is what they amount to anyway. The rules do not have to spell out that two things are different when they describe how they are different. We can see that for ourselves.

 

Being able to fire as a Meltagun is different from not being able to fire as a Meltagun. The model that can fire a meltagun and the model that cannot fire a meltagun do not have identical wargear. The one model changed it's wargear during play. All that matters is that currently it has different gear.

[DevianID]

Imagine you are playing in a devastation series, where after your battle, you pick up what forces you have left and play a new game. In the next battle, with the same forces left from your last game, did the combimelta you used in the previous battle somehow change, thus preventing you from using it once in this battle also? If not, then the wargear is still the same.

 

Aka, as others have said, the rule for combi weapons is that the secondary weapon may be used once per battle. This rule is in effect for both combiweapons that have fired and have not fired--thus the rule treats both the same; as long as you dont fire a combi melta more than once per battle you are following the rules for that combimelta. It does not say that you have a disposable one-use melta gun.

[rat of vengence]

Being able to fire as a Meltagun is different from not being able to fire as a Meltagun.

Correct.

The model that can fire a meltagun and the model that cannot fire a meltagun do not have identical wargear.

Incorrect. Rule reference please? Are they not both still carrying a combi-melta?

The one model changed it's wargear during play. All that matters is that currently it has different gear.

Could you tell us where it says wargear can 'change' during play? It says things cannot be used/fired again, but I don't remember it saying they change.

 

The rules explain that a Combi-Melta that has spent it's Melta shot can no longer be fired as a Melta.

Correct.

It is therefor different from a Combi-Melta that has not fired it's Melta shot. The rules don't spell that out word for word, but it is what they amount to anyway.

See, this is where things get difficult. You admit the rules don't say it, but it's what you reckon they meant?

The rules do not have to spell out that two things are different when they describe how they are different. We can see that for ourselves.

They do if you want to class it as being something else than what the rules say. There is no 'used combi-weapon' category in the wargear/equipment rules.

 

I understand where you are coming from mate, but I just don't see it being in the rules at all. :cry:

 

RoV

[shatter]

The rules for taking saving throws and removing

casualties, as presented so far, assume that all the

models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms*.

By this we mean they have the same profile of

characteristics*, the same special rules* and* the same

weapons# and wargear.

 

*supports fired and unfired are not the same

 

#supports unfired and fired are the same

 

4v1 in favour of DIFFERENT. But the tally doesn't matter, only one of the asterisks have to exist for it to save in a separate batch.

[derekbadger]

....... so it's a grey area then? ;P

[Mal]

No, not at all.

 

Answer the following questions.

 

1. At what point does a combi-weapon cease to be a combi-weapon rules wise, please quote page reference that supports your answer.

 

2. Please state in the weapons profile that the profile itself changes when fired, please quote page reference that supports your answer.

 

3. Please state in the rules where is says a combi-melta changes name when fired, please quote page reference that supports your answer.

 

These 3 things are required to reamin unchanged for the weapon to be considered identical in game terms.

 

I can tell you the answers right now.

 

1. At no point does a spent combi-weapon change rules, the rules for both fired and unfired are identical, it may only be fired once.

 

2. The profile for both fired and unfired are identical, it states clearly the combi-part is treated as additional weapon that can only be fired once.

 

3. The name of a combi-melta doesn't change, and cannot change, a spent combi-melta and an unspent combi-melta are both called a combi-melta.

 

Thus with these 3 points, both weapons are considered identical pieces of wargear in game terms, profile, rules and name.

 

At no point ANYWHERE in the codex, rule book or FAQ is there a rule that changes this.

 

I will not be posting in this thread again, anyone who cannot accept the rules, houserule it, otherwise if you try to force your oponent to accept your version without a house rule, your cheating. So either accept the rule, or house rule it. Either way I will not be wasting any more of my time trying to convince people in something they don't want to see.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I vote in favor of different between spent and unspent.

 

If you have 4 combimeltas, and 2 have already fired, and then you get shot and lose a guy, which do you lose, a spent or unspent. If you treat them as the same you dont have an answer, if you treat them as different they do.

[Legatus]

Imagine you are playing in a devastation series, where after your battle, you pick up what forces you have left and play a new game. In the next battle, with the same forces left from your last game, did the combimelta you used in the previous battle somehow change, thus preventing you from using it once in this battle also? If not, then the wargear is still the same.

The weapon can be fired once "per battle". So as soon as a new battle is initiated, it can fire again. And once it has fired during that current battle, it can not do so again for the duration of that battle.

 

The model that can fire a meltagun and the model that cannot fire a meltagun do not have identical wargear.

Incorrect. Rule reference please? Are they not both still carrying a combi-melta?

Combi-Weapon rules. A Combi-Weapon can only fire the special weapon once per game. It is therefor by the rules indispensable to differentiate between a Combi-Weapon that has already fired the special shot and one that did not. It matters for game play, the rules of the weapon demand it, and not doing so would be cheating. If you have one model that has fired the special combi-weapon shot and one that has not, teh rules demand that you are keeping track of that. They are therefor not identical.

 

Could you tell us where it says wargear can 'change' during play? It says things cannot be used/fired again, but I don't remember it saying they change.

If something is expended and then cannot be used again, that is a "change".

 

It is therefor different from a Combi-Melta that has not fired it's Melta shot. The rules don't spell that out word for word, but it is what they amount to anyway.

See, this is where things get difficult. You admit the rules don't say it, but it's what you reckon they meant?

The rules do say it, they just don't spell it out bit for bit. I assume you are not denying that the rules say an unused Combi-Melta can be fired as a Melta while a used Combi-Melta cannot?

 

Answer the following questions.

 

1. At what point does a combi-weapon cease to be a combi-weapon rules wise, please quote page reference that supports your answer.

Codex Space Marines, page 97. A combi-weapon does not cease to be a combi-weapon. But a combi-weapon that has fired it's special shot is different from one that has not. See below.

 

2. Please state in the weapons profile that the profile itself changes when fired, please quote page reference that supports your answer.

An unused Combi Melta can fire with one of these two profiles:

 

24", S 4, AP 5, Rapid Fire

 

12", S 8, AP 1, Melta

 

While a used Combi-Melta can only fire with the following profile:

 

24", S 4, AP 5, Rapid Fire

 

Codex Space Marines, page 97. Or do you contest that because those profiles are not actually listed on that page?

[Mal]

Your changeing the wording to say what you want it to say...

 

The profile for both does NOT change. E.V.E.R.

 

They both say the same thing, they are both called the same thing, they both have the same profile, they both have the same rules.

 

You even said it yourself, the rules do not say it changes.

 

Your working on RAI not RAW. Sorry to inform you but RAI is worth about as much as used toilet paper.