Wound allocation and spent/unspent combi weapons

[Legatus]

A rule can infer things without having to spell them out. "Different" things is a very simple case of that. The word "different" does not has to be used at any point, it is completely sufficient if how the text describes something is different.

 

If you look at the body of rules under which a combi-weapon operates, then you have multiple cases of an identical piece of wargear on different models in your army. But since the rules describe that this particular item has an expendable use, you will end up having items with different properties during the course of the game. You are going to allocate wounds at a specific point during the game. And at that point it can happen that one of the models has the ability to fire with a meltagun, while the other does not.

[DevianID]

expendable use

 

I will postulate that your idea of expendable use is the crux of the problem. By thinking of the combimelta as expendable, you build in a transition verb (expend) into the weapon... aka the weapon goes from combi-melta to 'expended' combi melta, which would be of course a different item with different physical properties in the real world (it would be lighter, for one).

 

However, the rules for the combiweapons include no such transitive verb. They are weapons that can fire as a bolter, and once per battle can fire as a another weapon. Once you fire that other weapon, there is no transition, no expendature. You still may fire the secondary weapon once per battle, EXACTLY like before you fired the combi weapon. The rule is there to ensure you do not fire the combiweapon more than once per battle.

 

Thus, if you add a transitive verb, such as expend, where no such verb is currently described, then you can change the meaning of the rule. Remember, while in the real world it is perfectly acceptable to consider the combi weapon can only fire once because with the first shot you expend all your ammo and discard the expended weapon, in the 40k world real world logic does not apply. Maybe the once per battle nature is because the marines feel that if they pull the secondary weapon trigger more than once they will anger the machine spirit of their holy bolter, and to anger the machine spirit of a holy bolter can only bring ruination upon oneself.

 

Here is another example. In IG special weapons teams, you can get 3 models with democharges, and 3 regular guardsman. If the 3 models with demo charges all throw their packs, do they become regular guardsmen for wound allocation?

 

If you have a sternguard with 1 combimelta that already fired, and 4 other sternguard with no upgrades, does the combimelta become a regular sternguard for wound allocation?

[Legatus]

You still may fire the secondary weapon once per battle, EXACTLY like before you fired the combi weapon. The rule is there to ensure you do not fire the combiweapon more than once per battle.

Which means once the special weapon has been fired, the model loses the ability to fire the weapon with that profile. The rules don't say that it's now "different" or "expended", but they describe it as such.

 

Can fire as a Melta --> Cannot fire as a Melta

 

Remember, while in the real world it is perfectly acceptable to consider the combi weapon can only fire once because with the first shot you expend all your ammo and discard the expended weapon, in the 40k world real world logic does not apply. Maybe the once per battle nature is because the marines feel that if they pull the secondary weapon trigger more than once they will anger the machine spirit of their holy bolter, and to anger the machine spirit of a holy bolter can only bring ruination upon oneself.

Fluff explanations are not really helpfull, or needed. What matters is that a model can fire with a Meltagun, while another model cannot.

 

Here is another example. In IG special weapons teams, you can get 3 models with democharges, and 3 regular guardsman. If the 3 models with demo charges all throw their packs, do they become regular guardsmen for wound allocation?

Which incidentally was specifically what the Codex Catachan and the previous Codex Imperial Guard described. Once a model with demolition charge had thrown his, it was replaced with a regular model with lasgun, or it was removed entirely if you had no such regular model available. The new Codex Imperial Guard on the other hand contents itself with a simple "One Use Only" attribute in the Demolition Charge's profile.

So I would say, yes, once a guardsman has used his "One Use Only" demolition charge he is then identical ingaming terms to a regular guardsman of the unit.

 

If you have a sternguard with 1 combimelta that already fired, and 4 other sternguard with no upgrades, does the combimelta become a regular sternguard for wound allocation?

They are pretty much indistinguishable at that point, as far as the rules are concerned. The difference of one having a "Combi-Weapon boltgun" is on paper only, and for modelling purposes, but has no effect whatsoever. It would be like having a number of Marines with "red boltguns" and one with a "black boltgun", where red and black boltguns would be having the exactly same stats and rules. The difference between them is fluff and has absolutely no bearing on the game. Or having some models being assembled with visible bolt pistoles, and others without them. In gaming terms the models would still be identical. And it is of course analogue to the demolition charge example, which in previous incarnations was very specific about this point.

[Trekari]

This is stupid that this thread has gone on this long.

 

The rules for taking saving throws and removing

casualties, as presented so far, assume that all the

models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms.

By this we mean they have the same profile of

characteristics, the same special rules and the same

weapons and wargear.

 

Identical in gaming terms is DEFINED by GW:

 

Same profile of characteristics is defined on page 6:

 

The characteristics are: Weapon Skill (WS), Ballistic Skill

(BS), Strength (S), Toughness (T), Wounds (W), Initiative

(I), Attacks (A), Leadership (Ld) and Armour Save (Sv).

 

Same special rules: None of the special rules have changed. Combi-weapons do NOT have a "special rule" associated with them. They have an instruction in the wargear entry that they may only be fired once, but this is NOT a special rule.

 

Same weapons and wargear: Think back to the movie Aliens. Ripley duct-tapes a flamethrower to a pulse rifle. She only has the one clip for the pulse rifle. When she runs out of the pulse rifle ammo, she switches over to the flamethrower. She has spent her "combi-weapon" ammo, but did the pulse rifle magically vanish into thin air? Does your army list magically change from having spent points on a combi-weapon, to only having a bolter? Did the model suddenly go from having a combi-weapon to being modeled only with a bolter? NO, NO, NO.

 

The rules do not support what some of you are making up.

[rat of vengence]

The model that can fire a meltagun and the model that cannot fire a meltagun do not have identical wargear.

Incorrect. Rule reference please? Are they not both still carrying a combi-melta?

Combi-Weapon rules. A Combi-Weapon can only fire the special weapon once per game. It is therefor by the rules indispensable to differentiate between a Combi-Weapon that has already fired the special shot and one that did not. It matters for game play, the rules of the weapon demand it, and not doing so would be cheating. If you have one model that has fired the special combi-weapon shot and one that has not, teh rules demand that you are keeping track of that. They are therefor not identical.

Sorry, but you still haven't pointed out where is says the model is no longer equipped with a combi-melta. There is not a different profile for a used combi-melta, and it doesn't magically stop being a combi-melta and become a bolter. This is just wishful thinking.

 

Could you tell us where it says wargear can 'change' during play? It says things cannot be used/fired again, but I don't remember it saying they change.

If something is expended and then cannot be used again, that is a "change".

But the profile has not changed. You just can't use that bit of it again.

 

It is therefor different from a Combi-Melta that has not fired it's Melta shot. The rules don't spell that out word for word, but it is what they amount to anyway.

See, this is where things get difficult. You admit the rules don't say it, but it's what you reckon they meant?

The rules do say it, they just don't spell it out bit for bit. I assume you are not denying that the rules say an unused Combi-Melta can be fired as a Melta while a used Combi-Melta cannot?

Of course not. That is clearly in the rules. Whereas what you want isn't.

 

This has gone on for long enough. It is clearly not in the rules, whether you think they 'meant' it or not.

 

Ironic, me supporting RAW... :P

 

RoV

 

edit for poor formatting :mellow:

[Legatus]

Think back to the movie Aliens. Ripley duct-tapes a flamethrower to a pulse rifle. She only has the one clip for the pulse rifle. When she runs out of the pulse rifle ammo, she switches over to the flamethrower. She has spent her "combi-weapon" ammo, but did the pulse rifle magically vanish into thin air?

If someone would request assistance from someone with a pulse rifle, would she respond, not having any pulse rifle ammunition?

 

Does your army list magically change from having spent points on a combi-weapon, to only having a bolter?

Do you think the specific allocation of wounds to model types is motivated by the fact that some models may be more expensive than others, or rather by the fact that some models play differently and have a different effect in the game than others?

 

Did the model suddenly go from having a combi-weapon to being modeled only with a bolter?

It went from being able to fire a Meltagun/Plasmagun/Flamethrower to now not being able to fire any of those anymore.

 

 

You have two Space Marines, both with a Combi-Melta. One has already used his, the other one has not. Are you honestly claiming that both models are now identical and are currently having the same weapons? They are interchangeable, and it would not matter one way or the other which of them was killed and which one survived?

 

 

Edit:

Sorry, but you still haven't pointed out where is says the model is no longer equipped with a combi-melta.

It still is. Just not with a working one.

 

There is not a different profile for a used combi-melta, and it doesn't magically stop being a combi-melta and become a bolter.

Before it could be fired with the Melta profile. Now it cannot.

 

But the profile has not changed.

How is gong from two available profiles to one single available profile not a change?

[Steelmage99]

Wether the combi-component of a Combi-weapon is fired or not, it still remains a Combi-weapon.

 

Why? Because we are not told to change it by a rule.

 

 

as an aside.

 

Brother Combiflamer; "Brother Techmarinius, will you please reload my Combi-flamer as I used it to rigtheously cleanse the unclean in His name?"

Brother Techmarinius; "No, brother. It is no longer a Combi-weapon. It is now simply a Bolter."

Brother Combiflamer; "Huh?"

[nighthawks]

ENOUGH! - this has gone on long enough, is fully circular, and has proven again that you cannot argue against conviction. no one is going to change how anyone on the other side feels. discuss this before game if you believe that it might come up, with tournament organizers, etc... as per usual.

 

topic closed. if you have a VERY good reason to reopen it, PM one of the mods and we will consider it.