Fave HH book and why?

[Pacific81]

And you're quite right about the bloodthirsty tyrant angle. It's something that came out in Legion, Mechanicum, and the Dark Angel books quite prominently (and if you consider, even before the Horus Heresy series was begun, fluff indicated that the Emperor had to be a terrifyingly driven man). But I just think that for a man who is seeking to stamp out religion across a galaxy and has had thirty eight thousand years to perfect and refine his arguments and justifications, he could have picked some better ones.

 

I agree somewhat about the hype surrounding The Last Church, and how that could lessen its impact. I also agree that it read somewhat like an amazon blurb on the God Delusion, but rather than taking it as such (for those who haven't read the Dawkins book) I think it helps cement the tragedy of the 41st millenium - like you said, despite all of what mankind was on the cusp of achieving through the Great Crusade, it instead fell at the last moment due to the capricious nature of humanity. That is what the 40k universe is all about in my opinion, a far cry from the enlightened humanitarianism of Picard aboard the Enterprise, and instead lays down a very cynical opinion concerning the concepts of science and progress, and perhaps ultimately of the failings of humanity as a species.

 

Thinking of what the Emperor 'preaches' during the Last Church, what might his reaction be were he able to see with his own eyes what has become of his Imperium ten thousand years later? It effects our knowledge of the 41st millenium on so many levels; from the tragedy of how it has fallen into such slow degredation so far from its founding principles, to the understanding that there is no real way that the Emperor can really be in charge of concious decision making within such a system, can he? <_<

 

Perhaps the ironic thing is that in the end Horus was right - as he feared the Imperium was wrested from the hands of its creators by lesser men; politicians and scribes who rule in the name of a deceased Emperor, and practise policies which are almost an exact antithesis of what was originally intended.

 

For this reason I think the Last Church is an extremely important title, because it adds further strength to the 'grimdark' image of the 41st millenium, which is the context in which most of us will read these books.

[Hergrmir]

Well, maybe I was a little harsh on it, but there was a lot of buzz about The Last Church and it got my expectations high. I'm not saying it wasn't solid, it just didn't live up to the hype.

 

What I'm saying is that the Emperor trounced Uriah because Uriah didn't know how to respond to basic arguments against faith. The Emperor argued 'you haz no evidences' and 'bad people misuse religion so religion is bad.' I kind of hoped for a better debate. But again, shouldn't have expected that from BL.

 

And you're quite right about the bloodthirsty tyrant angle. It's something that came out in Legion, Mechanicum, and the Dark Angel books quite prominently (and if you consider, even before the Horus Heresy series was begun, fluff indicated that the Emperor had to be a terrifyingly driven man). But I just think that for a man who is seeking to stamp out religion across a galaxy and has had thirty eight thousand years to perfect and refine his arguments and justifications, he could have picked some better ones.

 

And Uriah should have been able to respond to them. He was a priest, it's what they do.

 

I'll admit I shouldn't be letting this one sticking point ruin the story for me though. ;)

 

That's an entirely fair point. Neither the Emperor or Uriah seemed to do more than repeat some very simple arguments at each other. What I liked about it though, was that even if they both had the much more refined arguments for or against that could have been written in, you'd still be left with the sense that the Emperor was oh so human. And that can lend further strength to the idea that, had he succeeded, you really would have a faithless utopia, OR that the Imperial Cult would have gone on anyway, because he'd have let it slide under Imperial Truth. I like that ambiguity. I also didn't know there was any hype as I came really late to the Tales party, so that helped.

 

I agree somewhat about the hype surrounding The Last Church, and how that could lessen its impact. I also agree that it read somewhat like an amazon blurb on the God Delusion, but rather than taking it as such (for those who haven't read the Dawkins book) I think it helps cement the tragedy of the 41st millenium - like you said, despite all of what mankind was on the cusp of achieving through the Great Crusade, it instead fell at the last moment due to the capricious nature of humanity. That is what the 40k universe is all about in my opinion, a far cry from the enlightened humanitarianism of Picard aboard the Enterprise, and instead lays down a very cynical opinion concerning the concepts of science and progress, and perhaps ultimately of the failings of humanity as a species.

 

Thinking of what the Emperor 'preaches' during the Last Church, what might his reaction be were he able to see with his own eyes what has become of his Imperium ten thousand years later? It effects our knowledge of the 41st millenium on so many levels; from the tragedy of how it has fallen into such slow degredation so far from its founding principles, to the understanding that there is no real way that the Emperor can really be in charge of concious decision making within such a system, can he? :(

 

Perhaps the ironic thing is that in the end Horus was right - as he feared the Imperium was wrested from the hands of its creators by lesser men; politicians and scribes who rule in the name of a deceased Emperor, and practise policies which are almost an exact antithesis of what was originally intended.

 

For this reason I think the Last Church is an extremely important title, because it adds further strength to the 'grimdark' image of the 41st millenium, which is the context in which most of us will read these books.

 

This is what makes the series awesome. See, I think I find it more tragic that this so-called golden age of the Great Crusade was still largely something a lot of us would find repulsive. For me, it's not that at the last moment humanity's future was ruined - rather, from the very word 'go', humanity's future was going to be pretty unlikeable. We were never going to get Picard in the 41st millenium, even if Horus hadn't rebelled.

 

I keep thinking of God-Emperor of Dune and parallels - the Golden Path, the Scattering, and so on, but I'm fairly certain the early writers (and lots of the current ones) are quite familiar with the Dune saga, so that's not surprising.

[Starblayde]

But I just think that for a man who is seeking to stamp out religion across a galaxy and has had thirty eight thousand years to perfect and refine his arguments and justifications, he could have picked some better ones.

 

But it was the - until then - secret nature of Chaos that really brought the God-Emperor theory to the fore.

 

Stamping out opposing religion with every step when there's nothing to stop your invincible atheist warriors is easy. Stamping out religion both without and within becomes a little more difficult when the enemy itself is actually fuelled by belief and worship. Supressing sorcery and witchcraft is all fine and dandy until you have to rely on it yourself with Navigatiors, Pskyers and the rest.

 

There's no answer to someone believing in magic and the Emperor as a God when a daemon from the darkest pits of hell appears, only to be blasted into nothingness by a Space Marine Librarian using 'magic' powers that are powered by hell itself in the first place. All the arguments and justifications in the world just don't add up when things actually happen in front of their eyes. It was all very well when they were cleansing entire Xenos worlds before a light lunch down the pub, but when Chaos arrives on the scene as a real match, the ordinary people choose to worship the Emperor instead. Ain't no atheists in foxholes, as they say.

[Pacific81]

Again though, when I was talking about humanity being on the verge of achieving dominion of the galaxy, the Emperor was so very close to achieving his goals. When he returned to Terra to work on his 'special project', and left Horus in charge of the Crusade, it was actually to create a series of interspacial portals (similar to the eldar webway) which would end once and for all humanities reliance on the warp to maintain its Empire.

 

This was virtually completed when Magnus inadvertantly blew the wards protecting it open when trying to warn the Emperor of Horus!

 

To some a galaxy free of superstition and religious dogma might well be a nightmare, but look at the alternative we have in the actuality of the 41st millenium and its hard to imagine things being any worse!

[Hergrmir]

Again though, when I was talking about humanity being on the verge of achieving dominion of the galaxy, the Emperor was so very close to achieving his goals. When he returned to Terra to work on his 'special project', and left Horus in charge of the Crusade, it was actually to create a series of interspacial portals (similar to the eldar webway) which would end once and for all humanities reliance on the warp to maintain its Empire.

 

This was virtually completed when Magnus inadvertantly blew the wards protecting it open when trying to warn the Emperor of Horus!

 

To some a galaxy free of superstition and religious dogma might well be a nightmare, but look at the alternative we have in the actuality of the 41st millenium and its hard to imagine things being any worse!

 

Oh sure, humanity might have been on the verge of achieving dominion all right. It's just that from the HH books, M.31 doesn't seem all that very different from M.41. Replace some of the platitudes with other platitudes, superman with other superman, uncaring bureaucracy with another one, injustice and a complete insignificance attached to any notion of human deceny. Sure, the Imperium would be on the verge of victory rather than defeat, but unless you're one of the people at the very top it probably looked no different than it does in M.41.

[Atheist]

I honestly am undecided between Fulgrim and Legion . I'd call a a first-place tie . You gotta love the downwards spiral of the EC and the whole theatre of operations , Black Lucifers , Alpha Legion way of dealing with things and especially the last pages of Legion . In both of these books I was really interested in the "unknown" side characters developed by the authors : the artists , the remembrancers , the Guardsmen , the gene-whips , the Lucifers , John Grammaticus etc .

 

3rd and 4th and 5th place the first "trilogy" of the series : False gods , Galaxy In flames , Horus rising , in random order .

 

The Horus heresy series for me too is responsible for getting me hooked with 40k literature in general .

 

I've never payed much attention to it before the first HH book .

 

It went downhill from there .

 

I wait for a book on the Heresy Iron Warriors .

 

Please BL make a book on the Iron Warriors !

 

With a purebreed IW this time in the main role .

[sporty313]

I have to say the whole series is ace and has a nice mix between various legions, land and naval battles, various sections of the imperium including mechanicum a bit on IG, silent sisters and various short stories in the Tales of heresy which made a nice change reading an anthology for a change.

 

I don't play wh40k however since reading the heresy and a few other B.L. books in the space of 3 months im quite fancying getting one started, with regards to my fave book i think the first 3 are pretty even matched at the top of the list with Fulgrim and Tales of heresy a close second, third would be all the rest apart from the two DA books which come in at 4th place not that i have anything against the DA's just never enjoyed them quite as much as the rest although defo still worth a read and maybe should have been in 1 large book

[CastratedCow]

I just finished Fulgrim, and my vote goes to... FULGRIM! Hands down! So far, this is the only one of the series that has actually provided an in-depth look into WHY and HOW the legion fell out of the Emperor's grace. I actually don't like the first three too much because they just go from "Horus got injured" to "Horus is tempted in dreams by Chaos" to "Horus wants to kill all who oppose his vision." There's at least ONE dot there not connected. And really, we all know the over-story, so what's the point in reading these books if we don't have meaningful connections between events?

 

That having been said, I've finished Fulgrim, and the next book in the series is Descent of Angels (of which I've finished two chapters so far)... should I stop and wait to read this until I'm ready to follow it up immediately with Fallen Angels? I'm not too terribly interested in the Dark Angels, so if this isn't a necessary link in the chain of events, I'll gladly move on.

[Tyear]

I quite liked Descent of Angels and I'm a Blood Angels/Word Bearer player, so I say read Descent first, Fallen you can always read later, there are a few tie-ins to the story but nothing that really forces you to read them back to back, I didn't and I have to say that there was a good six months or so between the two books and I still managed to pick Fallen Angels up and read it in one single day.

 

Have to agree with you on Fulgrim, one of the best written books in the series hands down well Fulgrim and Flight of the Eisenstein.

[Starblayde]

I'm attempting to read Fulgrim (having read the previous four), as well as re-read the first in the Inquisition War Series (having read it when I was young enough for it to still be called 'Inquisitor') and also the first in the Soul Drinkers series.

 

It's not going well, and I'm confused no end :P

 

Seriously, though, Fulgrim is shaping up to be very good, though, but I think my fave of the first four is Flight of the Eisenstein. Garro I find a very likeable character and overall it's better than the first three Loken-based (sorta) books.

[CastratedCow]

I agree, Flight of the Eisentein was very good... out of the context of the rest of the series. In the context of the rest of the series, however, a good bit of it is very slow, tedious, and unnecessary, a problem that I've found to be true of most of the books I've read so far. If these books were all completely separate, I'd have very little problem with them repeating the same information again and again. But, considering that they are part of a series, I find myself feeling bogged down by the repetition of the exact same events.

 

And since I'm feeling a little riled-up and you mentioned the Soul Drinkers... is Sarpidus a psychic transmitter or receiver? The books don't tell me nearly enough. ;)

[Starblayde]

If these books were all completely separate, I'd have very little problem with them repeating the same information again and again. But, considering that they are part of a series, I find myself feeling bogged down by the repetition of the exact same events.

 

And since I'm feeling a little riled-up and you mentioned the Soul Drinkers... is Sarpidus a psychic transmitter or receiver? The books don't tell me nearly enough. ;)

 

I find it very immersive, rather than slow, and the separate viewpoints of the same event two or three times (or at least what's going on in different places at the same time, rather than the exact same thing viewed through two different pairs of eyes) are quite enlightening. Some of the random linking between the books where they mention, for instance, Euphrati Keeler for no apparaent reason riles me a little, though.

 

I can't remember what old Sarpy is. Isn't he some sort of Techmarine or something? :P

[Brother Captain Kezef]

For me the best book is Fulgrim.

 

It has to be THE best description of Slaanesh ever written.

[lee265]

The first rour books where the plot advanced instead of getting bogged down in to many viewpoints and minutia.

Also Decent of angels and Fallen angels are great books but I don't feel they add anything to the Heresy story at all.

Finally Sarpadon Was a transmitter he couldn't recieve at all.

[Tyear]

That's an unfair assessment of the Dark Angel books at least Fallen Angels, Descent I agree with, that was just pre-story, they did expand the Heresy, you finally figured out WHAT happened on Caliban to turn Luther traitor and you learned some more about what happened prior to Istvaan V, it's all just building towards something more. Since, if we follow your line of reasoning, then Mechanicum, Legion also didn't add anything else to the Heresy tales.

[lee265]

Actually I agree with that line of reasoning.

I feel they are great books all of them especially the DA books, however, I don't feel they belong in the series.

The DA books only explain in detail Legion/Chapter History, they don't really say anymore about the heresy then we weren't there and explain why. we don't need that explanation for the Horus Heresey Series (like telling you my house got broke into then changing the story to talk about how i wasn't home the car engine had died, they are seperate ideas).

Its not relevent at all to the story and the others seem to get kinda bogged down in either the same way or in an abundance of minutia (mechanicum).

Also part of my irritation comes from the realization they want money and we still aren't going to get to read about Emperor Bob and Horus for along time, if at all :down: .

 

And yes I do like the legions back stories but it just feels shoehorned in after they realized they could make hords of money. makes me :cuss ing mad because even if they were not part of the "story" I would read them. In fact I would probably enjoy them more because the store wouldn't have to be shoved in.

 

Just my 2 cents

[Hergrmir]

Actually I agree with that line of reasoning.

I feel they are great books all of them especially the DA books, however, I don't feel they belong in the series.

The DA books only explain in detail Legion/Chapter History, they don't really say anymore about the heresy then we weren't there and explain why. we don't need that explanation for the Horus Heresey Series (like telling you my house got broke into then changing the story to talk about how i wasn't home the car engine had died, they are seperate ideas).

Its not relevent at all to the story and the others seem to get kinda bogged down in either the same way or in an abundance of minutia (mechanicum).

Also part of my irritation comes from the realization they want money and we still aren't going to get to read about Emperor Bob and Horus for along time, if at all :down: .

 

And yes I do like the legions back stories but it just feels shoehorned in after they realized they could make hords of money. makes me :cuss ing mad because even if they were not part of the "story" I would read them. In fact I would probably enjoy them more because the store wouldn't have to be shoved in.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

While I agree with you in general, I'm actually not looking forward to the Final Showdown between the Emperor and Horus. I mean, we've read it in 50 versions already. I'm sure there'll be a lot of unlikely shaking, a bunch of cackling, some roaring, some screaming, some Dramatic Facial Expressions, and cheesily vivid descriptions of their wounds. The only thing good that can come of it is to vindicate the memory of Ollanius Pius, who showed even the Astartes what courage and faith really are.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

That's an unfair assessment of the Dark Angel books at least Fallen Angels, Descent I agree with, that was just pre-story, they did expand the Heresy, you finally figured out WHAT happened on Caliban to turn Luther traitor and you learned some more about what happened prior to Istvaan V, it's all just building towards something more. Since, if we follow your line of reasoning, then Mechanicum, Legion also didn't add anything else to the Heresy tales.

 

Mechanicum was all about the Heresy, the birth of the Dark Mech and the Mars civil war.

 

Legion is similar to the DA books, interesting, fun but not really Heresy novels.

[lee265]

How does the mechanicuses internal slaughter relate to why horus turned?, Why Emperor Bob ignored any sign of this?, Horus and the Emperors Battle?, other then explaining he had titans? so again it is a side track. on that note so too is flight of the einstein. So now I am down to first three books.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

How does the mechanicuses internal slaughter relate to why horus turned?, Why Emperor Bob ignored any sign of this?, Horus and the Emperors Battle?, other then explaining he had titans? so again it is a side track. on that note so too is flight of the einstein. So now I am down to first three books.

 

A side track?

 

Dude, the birth of the Dark mechanicus is one of the focal points of the Horus Heresy!

 

Seriously, as in any grand event, there is a damn sight more to it than the Emepror and Horus, they are figureheads for the eruption of fault-lines within the Imperium itself.

 

This is what I like about the boosk after the first 3. It's no longer a story of how 2 guys came to beat the hell out of each other in a spaceship above Earth. The Heresy has become something epic, something grand in scale.

 

In a way, the fight between the Emperor and Horus itself becomes almost a side show. They become figureheads, representatives of two different ideals, two different visions for Humanity. The REAL story isn't the clash of the two main dudes, the REAL story is what happens to the Imperium itself, how it changes, how it becomes something different from what either Horus or the Emperor wanted.

[Battle-Captain Garro]

ooh good question. When I first read the question the book that sprang, nay, leapt to my mind was Flight of the Eisenstein. A great read...and re-read.

 

I have to say that despite dire warnings I also really enjoyed Descent of Angels.

 

However my loathing, my bile, is saved up for something special...Battle for the Abyss[mal]

 

It was simply the worst book I have ever read. It's epic awfulness was conveyed in every tired cliche and over dramatisation, I'm sure I've read good Ben Counter material before, Galaxy In Flames wasn't half bad if memory serves, but in this case I am forced to quote Apu Nahasapeemapetalon and ask, "What were you thinking sir?!"

 

About a third of the way through it changes from vomitworthy to gagworthy which is an improvement but only a marginal one.

 

Sorry about all that but having forced my way through it I had to vent my spleen.

[lee265]

The Mechanicus needs a series of its own for this time period much like the DA, and not to be tacked on to this series. I like these books, but I like my stories more focused so in that respect I enjoy them I just think the Heresy book series was corrupted and convoluted to add all the extra material so BL could make money. Now the story is lost with little hope of recovery. Also yes it was a Grand event but its like a more interesting Version of the part concerning hobbits in LoTR series.

[antique_nova]

my favourite book is the next one that involve magnus the red and leman russ. why i hear you ask?

Because gws are gonna put me in it! :P. tis true, i swear on the pain of my life and the emperor's left bum cheek ^^. lol

It happened on games day uk at table 23, the 2 best players playing the russ/magnus scenario would be picked and a character based on their personalities would be in the next HH book :P.

thanks

antique_nova

[Space_Moron]

I just finished reading the first book of the series "Horus Rising". One of the things I liked about this book was that it explained why mortal humans in the 40K universe go nuts and start worshiping the emperor. "The Emperor Protects". I don't know if I'll read the rest of the series though. It was a little off-putting to have space marines that don't speak or behave like the space marines we are used to seeing in other background text and books.

 

-Danny