[Daemon review] Sample lists

[Captain Malachi]

Sorry guys, I'm a little busy, so I'm just going to open this now for you all to decide on what builds we'll do in this section. I figure the tally build, a balanced army, and maybe Skarbrand and his ladies. But you guys may have other ideas.

 

If I remember right we decided we were going to do Skarbrand and his ladies in the HQ section, but if we decide not to I can edit it.

[Corpse.]

Well we can focus on more generated target killers... Lets put the designated targets in categories on what kills what best. (With the deviations like psychic powers/other perks later).

 

For assaulting cover, nurgle princes/GUO with cloud of flies or daemonettes/seekers of slaanesh for example.

 

Targets that are vehicles, for some daemonettes are better, for others (on the ground and perhaps stationary/non walker) bloodletters charging have a better average.

 

Balanced lists including a perk to surviving no matter which wave enters first turn, like a greater daemon in each wave to entice nasty firepower allowing troops to survive.

 

The best things against MEQ, while best things against GEQ, and otherwise. Combined tactics like putting a unit of plaguebearers and horrors near eachother, the horrors soften the unit that would rapid fire the plaguebearers and soften them up before a charge (and blocking LoS ensuing melee).

 

Combo lists. Like putting everything in a large circle and drawing lines to which units combined make good for certain tactics. (Like the one above for horrors+plague bearers).

 

Just as a note for people to read before this topic gets off the ground.

[Infidel]

As I breifly outlined in the Heavy support section, There are a few units that I consider is great against all types of opponent. These are:

 

Tzeentch Herald, Chariot, We Are Legion, Bolt

Fiends of Slaanesh

Flamers of Tzeentch

Soul Grinder, Phlegm

Winged Nurgle Prince, Breath of Chaos

Musk Slaanesh Prince, Pavane of Slaanesh, Breath of Chaos

 

These things will work against fast units, slow units, mech, horde and small elite units all in one go. Grinder is weak to MCs and other Walkers, but is also invulnerable to anything S6 or lower.

 

I really dont consider a list to be "balanced" if it doesnt include at least 2 of the above units.

[ExarPucc]

Winged Nurgle Prince, Breath of Chaos

 

Do you consider this an effective build? I normally do the CC Nurgle Prince but have often wondered what a winged breathe prince would do. That shooting attack looks juicy, but is the lack of the CC modifiers worth it?

[Captain Malachi]

So have we actually decided what builds we're going to do?

 

Tell you what, each of you list three types of army you'd like us to do and we'll do the three most popular.

[ExarPucc]

Daemonzilla

Balanced all-comer list

And lolFatecrusher?

 

Not sure of a third actually.

[Captain Malachi]

Sorry, I forgot to say we kind of have to do the tally build. The beast entry, nurgling entry and Epidemius entry all mention that we'd do it, so while I could edit them it would just mean doing the tally build in the Epi entry.

 

Oh, and while I'm here, none of you would have a problem if I posted the final product on my own forum would you? (Link's in my sig, bottom one)

[dark_elf]

mono god daemonzilla

dual god daemonzilla

daemonzilla without god restriction

 

mono slaanesh

mono khorne

mono tzeentch

mono nurgle

 

dual god balanced (fateweaver/crusher)

balanced without god restrictions

 

ok thats more than 3 but those are pretty comprehensive

[Rahveel]

I agree about including builds for mono-gods (although we may be hard pressed to find a mono slaaneesh player to get input from), I will work on something tonight for mono-Tz (the only kind of daemon list I play), and toss what I have up tomorow.

[dark_elf]

i play mono-slaanesh :P

[Infidel]

Winged Nurgle Prince, Breath of Chaos

 

Do you consider this an effective build? I normally do the CC Nurgle Prince but have often wondered what a winged breathe prince would do. That shooting attack looks juicy, but is the lack of the CC modifiers worth it?

 

I had the same argument with a local player who packs mono-nurgle, and sadly, I gotta say he's quite right.

 

10 bodies will get you automatic noxious touch, and it's really not hard to get 10 bodies if all 3 princes come packing.

 

Oh wait, I just realised that we're not talking about mono-nurgle. Sorry.

 

What i was saying over there, I automatically assumed that the prince will have Noxious Touch and Iron Hide, as is the Slaanesh Prince should come standard with Iron Hide.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Tally List has to be done.

Skarbrand build should be done, I think we talked about that earlier.

Daemonzilla is a good candidate.

Mono-Tzeentch would be interesting to see, like shooty 'Nids no one expects it at first.

[Captain Malachi]

So at the moment we're looking at the tally, daemonzilla, Skarbrand and mono-god. That's seven lists, do we really want all of that or should we just include notes for making a mono-god list for each god? Also, we should probably do a balanced multi-god list as the first one to serve as a basis for the rest.

[Infidel]

I think we can do:

Mono Nurgle

Mono Khorne

Mono Tzeentch

Skarbrand

Balanced

Daemonzilla

 

Mono Slaanesh is a bit meh, but I guess we can do it if we want.

 

Then we'll probably start at the 1500 pt mark. I feel a 1500pt list scales up and down quite nicely. Also, I personally feel that Daemon dont really scale beyond 2500 pt....

[Captain Malachi]

I take it mono-Nurgle would be the tally as well in your list?

[Infidel]

The only way to go really, A man with no legs can either crawl (slowly and purposefully), or get a wheelchair :rolleyes:

[Rahveel]

Here is my mono-Tzeentch list, had a lot of sucess with it so far vrs orks, marines and deathwing (my main opponents). lighter on troops than I normally like, but I havent had any issues with objective holding so far.

 

Herald of Tzeentch

Bolt of Tz

Chariot

We are Legion

Master of sorcery

 

(4 of these)

 

Flamers (3)

(2 units, one with bolt)

 

Horrors (10) (2 units)

 

Daemon Prince

MoTz

Bolt of Tz

Daemonic Gaze

(three of these)

 

1500, on the dot.

[Captain Malachi]

Ok Rahveel, that looks like a good list for a sample, maybe a little light on troops but we'll deal with that. Why don't you give us a brief rundown of the armies strengths and weaknesses, a bit of basic strategy, and where you think it differs the most to other daemon armies? I'll convert it in to guide form once you've told us. ;)

[Rahveel]

It is a bit light on troops, but only because I love my other nasty gribblies to much to not use them. :lol: although, I honestly find that my opponent is to busy trying to take princes or heralds down to focus on my horrors. The closest this list has come to defeat however was due to its low troops count, one failed save more would have lost me the game.

 

This army is all about shooting, lots and lots of nasty shooting. the heralds act in many ways like land speeders. using their extreme speed and maneuverability to get into the best shooting positions. They don’t have enough shots to kill much on their own, but can really make an impact when combined with another herald/prince/horrors. Their main target is infantry; with We are legion allowing them to also send shots at tanks.

 

The flamers are a great utility unit. Opponents fear them, and will go to huge ends to ensure they successfully kill, or run away from these units. the bolt is there because opponents have a difficult time hiding rear armor from jump infantry. I like to run both units in the 2nd wave, as they are a small but potent unit that can have a huge impact on the late game, were opponents have fewer resources to target them, or perhaps just a few mostly intact units that actually threaten your victory.

 

The horrors tend to linger around objectives, filling any unit that ventures to close with warpfire. as most opponents would use the same weapons against the horrors that they would against a prince or herald, they see little return fire in most games (or at least until the opponent has thinned down the big nasties enough to breath a bit, and re-appraise what he needs to do to win) [as a side note, I think this is were most players loose vrs daemons. just about any daemon list will trash a large portion of an army in the early game, but will likely take heavy casualties itself. the key is to successfully appraise what remains (keeping in mind the reserves that the daemons may still have) of both armies, and form a new strategy based on whatever seems to have survived].

 

The daemon princes are my line-holders/turrets. They drop back about 12 or so", slightly ahead of the main daemon spearhead, and start lending their weight to the rest of the army. they have both anti infantry shooting, and anti-tank, so can take down any threat that comes their way (in theory). They are also the only decent CC units in the army, so placing them out front helps me deter unwanted chargers until they go down.

 

On the subject of CC, is it ever a weakness! ive lost 10 horrors to a single rampaging terminator, and been wiped on the charge by grots! However, this is not really the norm. the 4++ tends to add more survivability than normally expected, so while you may not actually kill anything in CC, they may hold up the enemy a turn or 2 longer than expected. this is a good and bad thing. You can tarpit a bit better, but frequently I find that I hope for a unit to die, so I can shoot at the assaulters next turn, but have a lone horror survive against the odds.

[Barisax1990]

Rahveel - Thats pretty wicked, I've never really considered Tzeentch as anything more than supporting troops, but that list with those tactics are really stong

[Infidel]

I agree on this being (probably) the only way to go with a Mono-Tzeentch list under 2000. After that we'd be looking at Fateweaver, LoC + 3x Shooty DP territory.

 

I personally like Grinders over Tzeentch prince, because Grinder has better shooting, road-block better and you can reliably throw them at anything in CC and have a realistic chance of winning.

 

However, i think Flamers in later waves is wasteful of their potency. Any shooting we can take out in turn 1 has an exponential effect in the following turn. Average game goes for 5 turns, every enemy casualty they take for turn one shooting is a body that won't be shooting for the rest of the game. Particularily satisfying when you wipe out an entire IG heavy weapons team.

[Rahveel]

I completely agree about using flamers in the first wave. they make a huge impact in the first turn or 2. however, this list has a bit of trouble clearing distant objectives at the end of the game. flamers excel at this, so I like to leave them as intact as possible for turns 4+. often my oponents feel that they are sitting pretty with all their objectives on turn 5, only to loose one or even 2 to the flamer units.

[Captain Malachi]

How does this sound?

 

Sample army lists:

Now that you have an overview of the units available to you, we’re going to show you a few ways to make the most of them. We’re going to show you our own army lists, one for each type of army, and give you a rough idea of tactics and where they excel and where they don’t do so well. First up, Rahveel’s 1500 point mono-Tzeentch army.

 

4x herald of Tzeentch with bolt of Tzeentch, chariot, we are legion and master of sorcery.

 

2x 3 man flamer units, one of which has bolt of Tzeentch.

 

2x 10 man horror units.

 

3x daemon prince with mark of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch and daemonic gaze.

 

As you can see, he uses several of our ‘best builds’ for his units, specifically the heralds and princes. Clearly, this is a very, very shooty army, unlike most daemon armies which are optimised for close combat. This alone means you can often catch someone off guard, provided they only know they’re up against daemons and not against a mono-Tzeentch army.

 

Rahveel likes to use his heralds as anti-infantry, but thanks to we are legion bolt is never wasted, since there is nearly always a tank in range. He’ll freely admit it’s light on troops, but thankfully with all the other big things to worry about, Rahveel says his troops are rarely shot at, and often survive the battle fairly unharmed. For the most part, he uses the horrors as little more than objective holders.

 

The daemon princes are his ‘line holders/turrets’ as he puts it. Dropping a little bit in front of the main spearhead of the army, they are able to start shooting units up as soon as possible, and as the only units with any kind of combat ability, keeping them in front is a good idea. As for the flamers, Rahveel likes to send them in later to help clear out units after the enemy has taken enough casualties that there are fewer shots being taken at them. When used in this way, they make excellent objective clearers.

 

As I said earlier, this army has a major problem with combat. With only the princes being able to kill anything in hand to hand, you’ll probably want to stay away from the enemy for as long as possible. Having said that, a 4+ invulnerable save means you can use your horrors to tarpit the other guy, you won’t kill anything, and you won’t live as long as plaguebearers, but you’d be surprised how long horrors can last for. Like all things though, there is a downside, Rahveel says that occasionally you’ll find yourself willing your horrors to just die so you can start shooting that unit again.

 

If we're good with that, mono-Khorne next?

[Corpse.]

Mono Khorne I've been bashing around with but I diverged. Before that though, having larger units of 15+ in a single squad made sure a unit survived to 10-marine wiping potential on the charge. Running after deep strike, and bashing the opponent.

 

The hounds, if you run them end up as first wave dreadnought chargers with a single fury. Or they end up being the fellas you put outside of wraithguard gun range or the like (or use obscuring terrain blocking LoS) to get around and bite like bikes 18+" away.

 

Though the crusher lists are dominant I must admit. A pair of crushers can outweigh the though of buying a daemon prince. 80 pts compared to 120+ for practiclly the same thing aside from being monstrous. Having two Greater Daemons are best in such a list, or running with quad chariots. I personally prefer to keep it big for the wings use if you run crusher, to abide to having a little mobility and survivability being hit on 5+, wounded on 6's and saving on 3+ or 4+ against most of the models in the game vs the thirster.

 

So thirster+Crusher+units of Bloodletters in hordes or second wave them+Hounds as tactical bogdowns/chasers/vehicle fury using str5 rending against dreads etc...

 

Or run with firepower nightmares, where you abuse units firing on units with obscene firepower like IG tank formations, all on one chariot where you took four chariots, six units of bloodletters (each with a fury) and three units of hounds (each with a fury) and three daemon princes tossing out 9 targets to spit fire at. (7 out of 14, both HQ's are a pair of chariots making for 9 targets total). Each unit capable of wiping out half of a stationary vehicle squadron.

 

Then there is the offbalance list, that all daemon armies can run with. Small squads for half the units, and large squads for the half you want to arrive first. I have gotten out 80 bloodletters in a 2k force on first turn arrivals, and when it does bad and I rolled a 1 or 2, they arrive in such large squads they are too hard to shoot down especially when I plop them on their flanks and rapid fire is split to hell.

 

So, take it either way. Thats my experience with mono-khorne. I dont use wolves anymore, I dont use crushers (that I call off-beat terminators, 2 wounds at 3+ is 1 wound at 2+ on the chance scale, toughness 5, and the 5+ inv save with superior power weapons, WS, furious charge and points cost).

 

I dont advise using a spendy soulgrinder in this army. Using tongue is perhaps a must if you include them to slap skimmers. I really advise using hounds to chase those things down with all those str5 attacks biting into the rears of these vehicles, at least one may stun it and you get a good chance at cutting it off by then with a fresh deep strike or two.

[Infidel]

T4 is great on paper until you start shooting at it. In my experience they're just as fragile as daemonettes and without the fleet we need to make sure that they see combat ASAP. Bring as many bloodletters as you can manage.

 

So, quad chariot can work, drop them with a bunch of crushers/letters and see the opponent futilely kill a unit or two while the survivors munch their troops as soon as they hit combat, but I definitely favor running 2 bloodthirsters as HQ. Give them unholy strength and you can throw them at just about anything confidently and with wings they can catch anything fast.

 

Having the hounds is a plus they are speedy enough to catch most things and tie them up in combat until your slower troops get to them.

 

Khornate DP is worthless, for the point of a naked prince I can get 2 crushers. Use Grinders in your heavy slot.

 

So in short, make sure you pack an icon or two somewhere so that if they dont bring down the icon bearer, they'll have an entire phalanx of bloodletters staring at their face.

 

I'll propose a list here:

 

Khorne Daemonzilla list

 

HQ: 550pt

Bloodthirster: might, blessing

Bloodthirster: might, blessing

 

Elite: 240

2x Bloodcrusher

2x Bloodcrusher

2x Bloodcrusher

 

Troops: 389

12x Bloodletter, instrument

12x Bloodletter

 

Heavy Support: 320pt

Soul Grinder, Phlegm

Soul Grinder, Phlegm

 

Total: 1499pt

 

Quite self-explanatory list really.