Fallen Angels

[ODM]

They could retcon retcons that had been retconned weeks previously and I would still be happy. We finally have a real no bull what happened reason with the Dark Angels.

My thoughts exactly.

[exsulis81]

Though the lack, and then additions of Librarians is a little confusing since it seems to skip in between books :)

[Haakon Ironheart]

From what I ve read in spoiler forums all over the web, noone is especially happy about the book as there are many incosistencies, contradictions etc. It seems the terran/calibanite split plot is abandoned and that saddens me a lot(ODM will like it though). I will read the book and I will come back for more details...At least it seems Astelan was right about Lion caring only for himself and not for Emperor's ideals...

[ODM]

It might be a tough time to be a Fallen sympathizer, but I'll wait until I've read it to say more.

From what I ve read in spoiler forums all over the web, noone is especially happy about the book as there are many incosistencies, contradictions etc. It seems the terran/calibanite split plot is abandoned and that saddens me a lot(ODM will like it though). I will read the book and I will come back for more details...At least it seems Astelan was right about Lion caring only for himself and not for Emperor's ideals...

[Phoebus]

The idea is that the Lion sends back Luther, Zahariel, and 500 other Astartes--primarily Calibanites--to train reinforcements that are in great need by the Legion. Zahariel wonders whether the Lion suspected Luther's complicity in the attempted bombing of his flagship, and whether he had been found guilty by association. I'd say it's a safe bet that this was the case.

 

It's not a matter of the Dark Angels coming home and having a hard time fighting 500 bad guys. I'm fairly sure the book will focus on how Luthor was eventually corrupted and how he used his position to in turn corrupt the thousands of men he was supposed to be training.

[bevulf]

I haven't read the Descent Of Angels book yet but after reading your posts I'm a little bit confused. Does it mean that most of you suspect/think that Jonson was real traitor? Is that true? I only read Angels Of Darkness and I was shocked about the history brought by Astelan.

 

So what do you think is wrong with the Chapter now ? Who exactly do they chase ?? The real faithfull marines? Those who never turned from the Emperor ? I may not quite follow/understand some facts that may be obvious to you but I would be grateful if you could tell me sth in this matter.

 

Thinking that Lion WAS a traitor makes me sad...

[HiveFleetEzekial]

the odds are that the final copy edit hasn't been done yet.

 

I feel there're much better odds that a few people are reading far more into 'sent back 500' than there really is.

 

This IS Jonson we're talking about. Do those few people seriously think he went off and left his home planet completely unprotected?! No! Ofcourse he wouldn't! More likely than what those few want to read into it, the other 'half legion' or close to it was still on Caliban, and the 500 are just what he sent back out of the troops he had on hand.

[SeanDrake]

Hi just finished reading this tbh neither side of the loyal/fallen debate is going to be happy and unless somthing changes in the next HH books the twist at the end is kinda letdown.

 

i'm not going to say anymore as I'm not sure if it's been released properly yet but dammit ti's killing me not saying somthing

[Phoebus]

I haven't read the Descent Of Angels book yet but after reading your posts I'm a little bit confused. Does it mean that most of you suspect/think that Jonson was real traitor? Is that true? I only read Angels Of Darkness and I was shocked about the history brought by Astelan.

You really need to read "Descent of Angels" as well to see what's going on with the Lion and Luther for a better perspective. Lucky for you, "Fallen Angels" is coming out very soon as well. I'd also recommend trying to find the short story "Call of the Lion" in the "Tales of Heresy" compilation. It gives a pretty nice portrait of what Astelan was like before the Heresy began.

 

The thing to remember is this: Astelan is found after taking a 10,000-year leave of absence, courtesy of Chaos. He offers a testimony that can't be confirmed by anyone else, and everything he says basically amounts to innuendo, conjecture, or guessing. At no point does he present a single shred of evidence other than "that's what I thought, anyways". How much of what he says can you trust? That's a question Gav Thorpe, the author of "Angels of Darkness" posed to the readers.

 

And there's nothing wrong with that, or the debate it brings up. Fact of the matter is, anyone familiar with 40k knows how many of the plot-lines will end. By introducing new concepts and twists, the authors are giving you something interesting to ponder and worry about as the books come out.

 

So what do you think is wrong with the Chapter now ?

Nothing. One of the biggest leaps of faith required for one to seriously second-guess the Lion's loyalty is that all the Astartes that followed him proceeded to serve the Imperium loyally after Caliban exploded and the Primarch disappeared.

 

Well, not quite nothing. The fear they have, of others finding out that members of their Legion rebelled, does obviously affect them in a bad way. They have earned a poor reputation for mysteriously following their own agenda sometimes, as opposed to helping their allies properly.

 

Who exactly do they chase ?? The real faithfull marines? Those who never turned from the Emperor ? I may not quite follow/understand some facts that may be obvious to you but I would be grateful if you could tell me sth in this matter.

They chase the Fallen. Few absolutes can be said about the Fallen, but here's one: all of the Fallen were followers of Luther's, on Caliban, and were hurled through time and space when that planet was destroyed.

 

Some of them became true Chaos Space Marines. They are featured in more than one short story; typically, their accusations toward the Lion have nothing to do with him being a traitor/bad guy/etc., but focus more on the unfairness of them having been left behind on Caliban while the rest of the Legion reaped glory.

 

Others become "masterless men": pirates, mercenaries, loners, or the leaders of isolated, frontier communities. Some of them have repented rebelling with Luther; others haven't changed much at all.

 

Only one seems to have a grand calling, mysterious as it might be: Cypher, the enigmatic Fallen Angel who seems to be allied with Chaos, but whose actions typically seem to result in the Imperium being strengthened or aided somehow.

 

I feel there're much better odds that a few people are reading far more into 'sent back 500' than there really is.

From the excerpt on the Black Library website:

 

"Officially, they had been ordered back to Caliban because the Great Crusade was about to enter a new operational phase, and the First Legion was in dire need of new recruits to meet the tasks the Emperor had planned for them. The Lion declared that experienced warriors were needed at home to speed up the training

process, and a list of names was drawn up and circulated throughout the fleet. Little more than a week after being deployed on their first campaign, Zahariel and more than five hundred of his brothers – over half a chapter – discovered they had been dismissed."

 

They weren't being sent for defense at all. They were being sent to train others.

 

This IS Jonson we're talking about. Do those few people seriously think he went off and left his home planet completely unprotected?! No! Ofcourse he wouldn't! More likely than what those few want to read into it, the other 'half legion' or close to it was still on Caliban, and the 500 are just what he sent back out of the troops he had on hand.

But there's no mention of that. The Lion sends the 500 home precisely because he needs more reinforcements. It wouldn't make sense to have half his Legion hanging around if troops were needed so direly. Furthermore, none of the other Legions are mentioned leaving thousands of Astartes on their home planets.

 

I'm betting the way things pan out is that Luther and his 500 help recruit and train thousands of prospective Space Marines. Along the way, Luther & co. are corrupted by Chaos, and in turn corrupt the formidable force they've raised. Lion & co. return, only to be faced by a force that amount to "half the Legion".

 

Cheers,

P.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

...as opposed to helping their allies properly...

*coughs Ophidium Gulf coughs*

 

And I like the mystery! My "Loyalist Fallen" force can live on if there is no definitive answer :) Cypher making a comeback to table top would be nice too though. I hate using him as a generic Chaos lord with PP and PW and no marks ;)

[MadDoc]

*coughs Ophidium Gulf coughs*

The suggestion of that piece is that the Dark Angels had something to do with the disappearance of the Templar's Battlebarge, but it is NEVER stated outright... for all we know the Fallen the Templars had in their possession had smuggled some sort of bomb onboard with him and it was later remote detonated to cast suspicion on the Dark Angels... :)

 

And I like the mystery! My "Loyalist Fallen" force can live on if there is no definitive answer :) Cypher making a comeback to table top would be nice too though. I hate using him as a generic Chaos lord with PP and PW and no marks :(

From what I understand you're going to be disappointed then. The Lion is shown to be Loyal, Luther and his ilk are shown to be Traitors and we learn even more about Caliban and... The Watchers feature again. ;)

[Phoebus]

But that's not to say that you can't still stick with "good-guy" Fallen, either.

 

I mean, I never saw a source that stated with certainty that the Fallen were the Loyalists and the rest of the Dark Angels traitors. All the pre-novel sources states the same thing: the Fallen got scattered through time and space; some of them turned to Chaos, while others became masterless men. Cypher has gathered a number of Fallen by his side to do his bidding, and they believe he is their way to redemption.

 

So clearly there's no one single camp of Fallen. There's nothing that keeps you from fielding that force, save for being able to say that the non-Fallen were the bad guys. And, yeah, it does stink that Cypher isn't still detailed in the Codices.

[SeanDrake]

Fallen angels is out I bought my copy yesterday at my local GW and I really want to say stuff but won't untill some other ppl have read it because at first I thought it was a bit meh but then after thinking about it for awhile I noticed somthing that I hope was intentional by the writer but not sure?

 

and how do I do blank stuff for spoilers?

 

Oh and how much of a spoiler is acceptable because I don't want to ruin it for ppl?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

On left side of reply box there's a optiont that says insert spoilers. :)

[SeanDrake]

Ok incoming spoilers there pretty major so be warned

 

 

Ok the good news is unless there is more to come in future HH books then Lion's not strictly speaking a traitor he is however vain,power hungry and not as smart as he thinks . Short version he wants all his legion in one place he is going to sit wait till the traitor legions arrive at terra give thema couple of days to hammer on the loyalists then sweep in save the day and be named next Warmaster there's no real risk terras defences are way to good and dads there as well.Personally I thought this was a crap plan but after thinking about it this is effectivley what Robert G and the ultramarines do and it turned out ok for them so meh.

 

 

So what could go wrong with the above bit of tactical genius

 

 

Well you could contact the traitor legions as a delaying tactic and so they will leave you alone while you gather your forces but not tell all your officers what your doing and why and then you could tell one of your brother Primachs what your doing and why so someone knows your not really a traitor but just want to be warmaster and cut a deal with them that in return of there surport for getting the promotion you will give them some siege weapons which can flaten any defence to take to Terra to bolster the defences so they get brownie points off Dad.

 

 

Can you see where this is going :cry:

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Might be said before, but here goes.

 

I seem to recall GW stating that BL books are not considered canon. It's all hearsay and "maybe", not defacto canon. Which is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing with things like Descent of Angels, a curse with things like Flight of the Eisenstein and False Gods.

[angronn]

Ok incoming spoilers there pretty major so be warned

 

 

Ok the good news is unless there is more to come in future HH books then Lion's not strictly speaking a traitor he is however vain,power hungry and not as smart as he thinks . Short version he wants all his legion in one place he is going to sit wait till the traitor legions arrive at terra give thema couple of days to hammer on the loyalists then sweep in save the day and be named next Warmaster there's no real risk terras defences are way to good and dads there as well.Personally I thought this was a crap plan but after thinking about it this is effectivley what Robert G and the ultramarines do and it turned out ok for them so meh.

 

Good golly. If that's really the gist of the book, I'm glad I'm not reading the Horus Heresy series.

[Griffsnog]

I for one am against all the "answers" this book may bring us. Isn't it the unknown factors about the dark angles that make them so interesting. For example; how cool was the force when Luke skywalker was using it to move stuff? Then the Emperor had Lightening and you were like "NO WAY" lightening is so cool he can do that because he's the force is more sorcery than knightly. Then stupid Lucas made the other thre films. The Force became microbiological organisms and the Jedi became acrobats instead of "Knights." Then it became lame not only because it was a stupid explanation but because it was something that was better left a mystery. It was a far more superior plot device when it was a mystery and it jsut worked.

 

I feel it is going to be tha same with this book. Alot of people may be unhappy whith what will be "set in stone" with this book. I hope they don't take away all the mystery.

[ODM]

I'm sure there will be new twists and conspiracy theories, but I for one will be very happy not to have Astellan's guesses and opinions taken as "facts" anymore. I'll also be very happy to have the Fallen's "fall" to Chaos brought back into the picture. It's been in the fluff from day one, but after Angels of Darkness it seems to get conveniently ignored so the Lion can be blamed for everything.

 

It's interesting in that although there are lots of complaints about retconning, this seems to be actually a return to the spirit of the long established DA fluff that many of us like better.

[Brother Amarel]

It's been in the fluff from day one, but after Angels of Darkness it seems to get conveniently ignored so the Lion can be blamed for everything.

Well only if we're counting "day one" as Third Edition :).

[ODM]

It's been in the fluff from day one, but after Angels of Darkness it seems to get conveniently ignored so the Lion can be blamed for everything.

Well only if we're counting "day one" as Third Edition :).

That's not true. Our first codex, Angels of Death, has Luthor Fallen to Chaos too. As long as there has been a DA story, the Fallen truly fell to Chaos.

[Brother Amarel]

It's been in the fluff from day one, but after Angels of Darkness it seems to get conveniently ignored so the Lion can be blamed for everything.

Well only if we're counting "day one" as Third Edition ;).

That's not true. Our first codex, Angels of Death, has Luthor Fallen to Chaos too. As long as there has been a DA story, the Fallen truly fell to Chaos.

I was being slightly glib. But Angels of Death was released near to the end of the 2nd Ed Cycle and was the first mention of Luthor. Dark Angels existed a long time before that (9 years before that, in fact) and had many articles written about them in White Dwarf, Space Hulk & Space Marine (amongst others) - none of which mentioned anything to do with Chaos or Fallen.

 

Gav decided to retro-fit a 'secret' onto them to make them darker and more interesting when sat alongside the Blood Angels (both of which [DA & BA] were meant to be shades of grey when compared to the 'goody-goody' Ultra's and comic-book bad Chaos chapters) and also to help explain the 'accidental' shift to green. He was way too heavy-handed in shoving the back-story in (something he's stated he now regrets) and GW has spent the following years trying to muddy the water ;).

[RADU LYKAN]

Hey does the Lion actually wear the Lion helm in this book? he didn't to my knowledge wear it in the first one.

 

I am about to start a truescale model of the Lion and was curious if he actually ever wears the helmet...

 

This boo sounds good I really liked the DoA, and haven't read the tales of Heresy yet.

 

 

the lion helm is not mentioned in fallen angels.

[ODM]

I don't disagree with what you've said. I was being glib too when I said "as long as they've had a story". Obviously, there were DA related side bars in WD and the Deathwing short. I just meant that since they've had a fleshed out origin with the second edition codex, the Fallen falling to Chaos has been there.

 

It's been in the fluff from day one, but after Angels of Darkness it seems to get conveniently ignored so the Lion can be blamed for everything.

Well only if we're counting "day one" as Third Edition :).

That's not true. Our first codex, Angels of Death, has Luthor Fallen to Chaos too. As long as there has been a DA story, the Fallen truly fell to Chaos.

I was being slightly glib. But Angels of Death was released near to the end of the 2nd Ed Cycle and was the first mention of Luthor. Dark Angels existed a long time before that (9 years before that, in fact) and had many articles written about them in White Dwarf, Space Hulk & Space Marine (amongst others) - none of which mentioned anything to do with Chaos or Fallen.

 

Gav decided to retro-fit a 'secret' onto them to make them darker and more interesting when sat alongside the Blood Angels (both of which [DA & BA] were meant to be shades of grey when compared to the 'goody-goody' Ultra's and comic-book bad Chaos chapters) and also to help explain the 'accidental' shift to green. He was way too heavy-handed in shoving the back-story in (something he's stated he now regrets) and GW has spent the following years trying to muddy the water :).

[Amit]

 

I thought the ending was hilarious. Jonson spent all the time, resources of a fleet, 200 veterans to secure six artillery pieces from Horus, in the end to give them away to Perturabo! Jonson got played fro a chump!

One of the greatest tacticians of the primarchs indeed! I do agree with another post - it revealed Jonson to be self obsessed, vain and in limitless supply of hubris...

 

 

Question:

 

So when it said Zahariel knew

the source of Calibans taint and its name...who or what were they talking about? Luther? That worm thingy? Jonson?