Fallen Angels

[Beef]

You wont be getting an apology from the sons of Russ anytime soon.

The Lion might have proven he was not a traiter but proved his ambitions went beyond the protection of the imperiam. Like others have said he just showed his own arrogance and selfisness. Guillaman did not try an swoop in last minute to act the hero like the Lion planned fro himself to do. Guillaman was engaged else where. overall an ok book, still boring especially Astellan character. He had more depth in the HH short stories

[bevulf]

You wont be getting an apology from the sons of Russ anytime soon.

 

Who said Dark Angels want apology from Space Wolves ?? ;)

[Terrahawk]

You wont be getting an apology from the sons of Russ anytime soon.

 

Who said Dark Angels want apology from Space Wolves ?? :woot:

 

Yeah, surpassing them in everything as always is more than enough. B)

[The lord cypher]

More to the point the lion laid russ flat out over a supposed slight on the bozze hounds honour due to tha fact he was a bum rubbish tactition he only had one battle plan "charge!!" lol

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Ok, enough with the banter. the thread ia about a book, not SW/DA rivalry.

[BoonKin]

I have just read an extract of the book posted on BL's website.. and I must say I am very excited to get my hands on them when they are out !!

 

Just in case if anyone doesnt know:

 

 

It seems that the Lord Cypher (the new one) could possibly be the current Cypher that we all 'hate and fear'. He is described to be someone aloof, scholarly looking, carries a pair of pistols, and vanishes without attention. Hmm, I wonder what is his story.

 

[Gillyfish]

I was being slightly glib. But Angels of Death was released near to the end of the 2nd Ed Cycle and was the first mention of Luthor. Dark Angels existed a long time before that (9 years before that, in fact) and had many articles written about them in White Dwarf, Space Hulk & Space Marine (amongst others) - none of which mentioned anything to do with Chaos or Fallen.

 

Gav decided to retro-fit a 'secret' onto them to make them darker and more interesting when sat alongside the Blood Angels (both of which [DA & BA] were meant to be shades of grey when compared to the 'goody-goody' Ultra's and comic-book bad Chaos chapters) and also to help explain the 'accidental' shift to green. He was way too heavy-handed in shoving the back-story in (something he's stated he now regrets) and GW has spent the following years trying to muddy the water .

 

Actually, I recall a mention in the second edition boxed game about rumours that some of the Legion had turned to Chaos. I'll see if I can find the source and I'll also check the Epic information too.

[Grand Master Belial]

The 2nd Ed. Codex: Angels of Death established Luther and the Fallen pretty firmly into Canon. There is also the IA article as well but that was 3rd Ed. So 2nd Edition is where the Dark Angels got their Dark Secret. Not the Deathwing expansion of Space Hulk or Rogue Trader.

[Gillyfish]

Found it! Box out on page 17 of Codex Imperialis (the background book back in second edition).

 

I've quoted a little bit below:

 

...Only the legend persists - the legend that once the Dark Angels teetered upon the brink of Chaos, that foul betrayal besmirched the Chapter's valour and made vain all acts of former virtue...

 

This is alsp the first mention that the DA bear the mark of the Unforgiven and that there are no records of the Chapter's beginnings or their part in either the Great Crusade or the Heresy.

[Beef]

Finished and to be honest still did not explain anything apart from a few things.

 

 

make the sole surviving member of the knights who they killed for having the chaos beasties Lord Cypher, it makes no sence. Unfortunatly even though the book still did not portray the Lion to be siding with Horus its still showed that he was arrogant and thought he should have been warmaster. He wanted to wait untill the end and swoop in and be a hero. Also congratulations on supplying the IW with some awsome seige tanks.

 

It was a shame to see Luthor slowly giving in to his jealousy. How the mighty fall. But the fact the remial and some other knights of renown where already against the imperium probably swung it for Luthor. How the EMP did not relise there was taint is beyond me. Most powerful psycher my bum. Also what the hells up with the watchers? are they good or bad? why do they appear to some only

 

[KJB]

*Edit - deleted my post as I can't get the spoilers function to work...

 

Yes, I am aware that makes me a loser...

[bevulf]

Finished and to be honest still did not explain anything apart from a few things.

 

 

make the sole surviving member of the knights who they killed for having the chaos beasties Lord Cypher, it makes no sence. Unfortunatly even though the book still did not portray the Lion to be siding with Horus its still showed that he was arrogant and thought he should have been warmaster. He wanted to wait untill the end and swoop in and be a hero. Also congratulations on supplying the IW with some awsome seige tanks.

 

It was a shame to see Luthor slowly giving in to his jealousy. How the mighty fall. But the fact the remial and some other knights of renown where already against the imperium probably swung it for Luthor. How the EMP did not relise there was taint is beyond me. Most powerful psycher my bum. Also what the hells up with the watchers? are they good or bad? why do they appear to some only

 

I suppose it showed that lion was arrogant - that is why he is not as straight as let's say leman russ. When I try to think about the stuff I read about leman russ all that comes to my mind is that he was the most stupid primarch from all. Brave but stupid. Lion definitely had his own plans but this makes him much more intresting than simple russ. Of course this is my point of view and I hope that Fallen Angels will not dissapoint me in seeing the darker side of Lion.

[Vassakov]

Good grief, has anyone other than Beef (another son of Russ, :) ) actually read the book, and looked beyond the "twist" at the end?!?

 

 

Yes, the Lion gives Pertarbaro siege engines. With hindsight, rather silly but at this point - Pertarabaro is approaching Istvaan V along with the other 6 Legions to crush Horus. Now, giving siege engines to the Besieging Primarch seems like a good idea to me. The Lion has no way to know the IW are planning to betray them...

 

 

As for the Calibanites (and this involves MAJOR, MAJOR MASSIVE SPOILERS! You have been warned...)

 

 

Caliban is tainted. Stop whining about it, the planet was corrupt to its core - hence the Great Beasts. They were symptomatic of the Taint, but were little more than beasts. The reason given for the lack of a more overt sign was that the beasts had no real sentience and the humans were never corrupted owing to Calibites tendency to burn witches and the fact that most of the corruption was in the areas where the beasts dwelled. No human lasted long enough to become corrupt. In addition, the Watchers in the Dark (still no real idea what they are, though part of the Cabal from Legion seems like a pretty good bet) are operating to keep the taint dormant.

 

Fast forward to the time of Fallen Angels, and the Beasts are long gone and the Imperium is mining in the North... the Terrans unleash forces they cannot possibly understand and Warp Cults, fueled by a unknowingly campaign of terror coordinated by disgruntaled Calibanite nobles and citizens threatens to erupt into a large scale ritual.

 

With the Administratum and other Imperial organisations getting twitchy, Luthor and his cohort of DA (mostly Calibanite, but including Israfel (the Librarian in DoA) and Astelan prepare to try to take out the cults before the Terrans realise what is going on, and as Astelan pointedly remarks "Purge [Caliban] with fire"

 

 

And so the truth, as far as I can presently tell is revealed:

 

 

Using texts gathered from the Knights of Lupus, the Lion knew full well what was on Caliban. He also knew that it would be discovered, and he knew what the result would be. The Lion sent the "Fallen" Angels back to Caliban, knowing that the Imperium would discover the taint, and they would be purged. It was a death sentence, nothing else and THAT is what Luthor discovered. At this point, Luthor and his DA forces decide that their loyalty is to the people of Caliban first, and the Lion of the Emperor second. Knowing that Caliban would be destroyed by the Imperium, and with the HH in full swing Luthor effectively declares independence. Thus, they are the "traitors" - The Fallen Angels.

 

 

So, I owe this forum if not an apology, certainly a retraction. A few months ago I was involved in a long running argument over the Lions loyalty.

 

I can say I was wrong. He did not betray the Emperor or the Imperium. He did, however

betray his own brothers.

 

[Grey Mage]

Wich fits his character from the first book.

 

No offense to anyone in particular, but the books show El'johnson as a complete ass.

 

Not a traitor, but not pure either. *shrugs* I suppose thats in line with the DA feal.

[ODM]

Well, it's not released here in the states until now. I look forward to getting moy hands on it today and reading. Then I can tell you all how wrong you are! :)

[Chaplain Lucifer]

And you will have the chance to tell them, ODM. I'm 1/4th into the book. Still have yet to see any wrong move by the Lion. Luther and astellan on the other hand....

[Vassakov]

And you will have the chance to tell them, ODM. I'm 1/4th into the book. Still have yet to see any wrong move by the Lion. Luther and astellan on the other hand....

 

Wait until the last 1/5 or so. That's when all the pieces drop into place.

[bevulf]

Wich fits his character from the first book.

 

No offense to anyone in particular, but the books show El'johnson as a complete ass.

 

Not a traitor, but not pure either. *shrugs* I suppose thats in line with the DA feal.

 

Of course it is !! Lion 'not a traitor, not pure either" - what did you expect? another loyal emperor's puppy? Ehh this would destroy all the secrecy DA are known for.

 

I am really glad that he is not purely loyal or traitor - i have enough barbaric or noble heroes. Lion is much more complicated personae than most of the primarchs and i think it is far more interesting trying to solve his problems to get into his mind than simply read about noble, pure heroes such as leman russ - what is interesting about him? or Reboute? one is barbarian ehmmm conan of the future, another is a noble King Arthur's knight - we know such heroes without taint, doubts but reading about them is simply BORING again and again - nothing new (of course this is my opinion)... Lion is sth else.

 

He may betrayed his brothers but did that to preserve all others. Still loyal to the emperor. I've never doubted that.

 

IMHO: Heroes that can be divided onto pure good or pure evil are boring. only those who are between are truly intresting.

[Beef]

YEah but its not like the Lion was actually interesting, Rememeber he was a master tactition but otherwise he was dull as bricks. Luthor did all the PR work for him which showed he was obviously the more charasmatic of the 2.

 

True The lion was loyal to the emp but he was all about no1. Himself

[Grand Master Tyrak]

True The lion was loyal to the emp but he was all about no1. Himself

 

I don't think that's the case. The Lion's blessing (and curse) is that he retains the Emperor's utter ruthlessness in the cause of Humanity. The Emperor is prepared to do terrible things to ensure the survival of Humanity, and the Lion is no different, even if that means sacrificing his brothers and his people.

[The Shadow Guard]

Good grief, has anyone other than Beef (another son of Russ, :P ) actually read the book, and looked beyond the "twist" at the end?!?

 

 

Yes, the Lion gives Pertarbaro siege engines. With hindsight, rather silly but at this point - Pertarabaro is approaching Istvaan V along with the other 6 Legions to crush Horus. Now, giving siege engines to the Besieging Primarch seems like a good idea to me. The Lion has no way to know the IW are planning to betray them...

 

 

 

As for the Calibanites (and this involves MAJOR, MAJOR MASSIVE SPOILERS! You have been warned...)

 

 

Caliban is tainted. Stop whining about it, the planet was corrupt to its core - hence the Great Beasts. They were symptomatic of the Taint, but were little more than beasts. The reason given for the lack of a more overt sign was that the beasts had no real sentience and the humans were never corrupted owing to Calibites tendency to burn witches and the fact that most of the corruption was in the areas where the beasts dwelled. No human lasted long enough to become corrupt. In addition, the Watchers in the Dark (still no real idea what they are, though part of the Cabal from Legion seems like a pretty good bet) are operating to keep the taint dormant.

 

Fast forward to the time of Fallen Angels, and the Beasts are long gone and the Imperium is mining in the North... the Terrans unleash forces they cannot possibly understand and Warp Cults, fueled by a unknowingly campaign of terror coordinated by disgruntaled Calibanite nobles and citizens threatens to erupt into a large scale ritual.

 

With the Administratum and other Imperial organisations getting twitchy, Luthor and his cohort of DA (mostly Calibanite, but including Israfel (the Librarian in DoA) and Astelan prepare to try to take out the cults before the Terrans realise what is going on, and as Astelan pointedly remarks "Purge [Caliban] with fire"

 

 

And so the truth, as far as I can presently tell is revealed:

 

 

Using texts gathered from the Knights of Lupus, the Lion knew full well what was on Caliban. He also knew that it would be discovered, and he knew what the result would be. The Lion sent the "Fallen" Angels back to Caliban, knowing that the Imperium would discover the taint, and they would be purged. It was a death sentence, nothing else and THAT is what Luthor discovered. At this point, Luthor and his DA forces decide that their loyalty is to the people of Caliban first, and the Lion of the Emperor second. Knowing that Caliban would be destroyed by the Imperium, and with the HH in full swing Luthor effectively declares independence. Thus, they are the "traitors" - The Fallen Angels.

 

 

So, I owe this forum if not an apology, certainly a retraction. A few months ago I was involved in a long running argument over the Lions loyalty.

 

I can say I was wrong. He did not betray the Emperor or the Imperium. He did, however

betray his own brothers.

 

Well guys just finished reading the book two nights ago. LOVED it!

 

Just a note to all those waiting for the release of the book. I pre-order the books from Black Library... and they seem to arrive by post from the UK long before they are officially released in Australia. it costs a little extra for the postage but well worth it.

 

The book itself clarifies a lot of facts and places the Lion as not just a brilliant tactician but also a grand strategist able to see the greater picture. I agree with most of Vassakov's take on the subject but have to differ in what the Lion had in mind in sending the Calibanite Dark Angels back to Caliban in the last novel.

 

My take on the subject is as follows, but be aware that there are more spoilers - SPOLIER ALERT!!!

 

 

Caliban's Taint Iy becomes very clear by the end of the book that the planet itself is tainted. The terrible beasts and the tainted woods they dwelled in were the reult of this taint. As Vassakov pointed out the majority of humans who went to those areas were killed by the beasts and anyone with psychic powers was burnt as a witch by the Calibanites themselves. This prevented the humans becoming tainted by forces that dwelled in caliban.

 

But what stopped the taint expanding? Perhaps the untiring efforts of the knights of Caliban?

 

More importantly what was the source of the taint? A few pointers come through. The terran sorcerers try to create a bridge to draw an entity. This is thwarted by Zahariel, Luther and the rest. As zahariel ecovers from his near death experience he realises that the psychic portal was not to draw the entity in to the material world but actually to release it from the planet. This is what i think is the crucial point. There is an extremely malevolent chaos entity imprisoned within the core of Caliban. I suspect that the Cabal, including the Watchers in the Dark are its guardians, maintaining its imprisonment. The taint that affects the fauna and flora of Caliban is the outcome of that entity being trapped within Caliban.

 

Could it be that if the entity had been released back in to the warp, that the taint in Caliban might have gone?

 

It also makes me think that during the final battle, the destruction of Caliban may have had something to do with the Lion either trying to destroy the entity even at the cost of Caliban or that the destruction may have been secondary to the entity being released. - This is entirely my speculation.

 

Lion's motives in sending the calibanites back Te notion that the calibanite DA were sent back to die whe the imperium discovered the taint is simply the impression by the calibanites. This is not what is actually stated in the book by the author but the opinion of the characters. Very much like Astelan's opinions in the Angels of Darkness novel.

 

Let's take the facts. The lion did ship the books from the knights of Lupus' castle to his secret library. It is highly likely that he had read much of the text. However, it took the experience of Zahariel at sigma-five something to make even luther realise that there was a problem. With that focus Luther was able to discern the fact that there may be something within Caliban. It was his efforts along with Zahariels psychic prowess that allowed them to discern the core problem.

 

Would the lion have realised the fact that there was a chaos being trapped within Caliban ? Perhaps he sent the Calibanite DA back to Caliban because he knew how they would act to preserve their planet as opposed to Terran DA. As seen by the actions of Israfael, just imaging if the majority of DA on Caliban were Terran DA, commanded by ISrafael theyare likely to have initiated virus bombardment as soon as things became obvious and wiped out Caliban.

 

Lion's Arrogance and battle prowess

I get annoyed by people going on ad infinitum on how arrogant the Lion was. All of the emperor's sons were arrogant to some extent. Given the extent of their capabilities, it is expected. Horus considerd himself to surpass the emperor, Russ was arrogant about his strength, Magnus about his psychic prowess, perturabo about his siege tactics, Fulgrim about finesse and skill, Rogal Dorn about so many things and Guilliman built a bloody empire and so on.

 

With the kind of prowess at their hands they are entitled to soem degree of arrogance.

 

But look at what the Lion accomplished. using a small force his strategic brilliance enied Horus the massive siege engines that would make the Siege on Terra a walk over. He passes the weapons to the one Primarch who is exceptional at siege warfare. That his efforts were wasted by treachery and subterfuge is unfrotunate but do not fault the lion for that. The emperor did not realise that Horus and three of his brother primarchs were rebelling. Rogal Dorn did not realise that 4 of the 7 legions he sent to Istvaan had also rebelled. Why do people hold the Lion to a higher standard?

 

As for his thinking relating to being warmaster, remember that the Lion had the largest number of victories after Horus. Horus had more time as he had been re-united with the emperor and subsequently had command of more than one legion when instated as warmaster. It is also possible, given the lion's background of exposure to the taint in Caliban, he might have recognised the chaos infiltration of the warrior covens and not fallen prey like Horus did.

 

Sorry about the ramble, but a great book and a lot of insights.

 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I've finished reading the book.. judging by some thoughts I read here, I must have read a different book...

 

 

Jonson proves a master strategist but lacking skills dealing with people So he's a genius but doesn't know how to judge people's charcters. Obviously a flaw, but every Primarch has a flaw.

 

 

Now, I heard here Jonson killed his brothers.. nonsense. Jonson is a visionary and a master startegist. After aquiring the knowledge of the knights of Lupus he knew Caliban was tainted, speacially after the conflict at Sarosh.. he knew that sooner or later the taint in caliban would be revelaed.. so he sent Luther and 2 powerfull psykers to sit on caliban so when something bad happened, they could destroy the evil... but he lacks communication skills so he hid his motives and said nothing to no-one, including Luther, his 2nd in command.

 

Now, Luther, just screws it up... his envy acts once again and tries to get Caliban for him... he breaks his oaths on the Emperor and the Imperium.. plus dables with Chaos to do it.

 

Astellan proves his a cronie. He fought for the Emperor and after his less than stellar track record puts him in Caliban, he quickly forgets about the Emperor and his primarch and quickly turns his loyalty to Luther...

 

Jonson gives siege engines to perturabo because he didn't know perturabo was a traitor.. I don't know what the big deal is... any other would've done the same.

 

 

 

 

The book was a very good read,IMHo. I'm awaiting for part 3 in years to come.

[Octavulg]

*Laughs at how his homebrew chapter's motivation now makes them classical Fallen. Laughs hard.*

[ODM]

First off, I absolutely loved the book. It accomplishes a rare feat, in that it makes the previous book even better. I liked DOA, but with Fallen Angels, the way these two books mesh together is outstanding.

 

I agree with Lucifer and Shadowguard about almost everything they've written, but I have another twist on why the specific DA are sent back to the Caliban.

 

Before I jump into them, I want to touch on a few things we see in the Lion while he's on Crusade, as I think they are extremely important in explaining his motivations. I believe the author makes special efforts to lay these out, often with several examples or conversations with Nemiel.

 

SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER

 

1. Jonson is a tactical wizard, but he plans the overall picture out in his head. He expects his men to be able to accomplish their tasks, which are often quite complex and demanding, while he moves all the pieces around and puts them in motion according to his master plan. Jonson sees a strict need to control information until the "actors" can handle it.

 

2. He does not understand human emotion, and therefore his plans can fall prey to getting sidetracked because of his lack of foresight in this department. He expects everyone to act according to his script. This works fine in a tactical environment, but not necessarily in a diplomatic/garrisson one.

 

So, I'll lay out my theory, and also why aside from that, what the massive flaw in the "Jonson sent us back to Caliban to die" theory is.

 

First, why were these specific DA sent to Caliban?

 

I think we can assume that Jonson read the texts in the Knights of Lupus' library, and realized that Caliban itself was tainted. Based on his desire to eradicate the beasts, he would have hit upon the same observation as Sar Daviel, the next Crusade needed to be to cleanse Caliban.

 

This mission is interrupted by the arrival of the Imperium. Maybe Jonson decides it must be put on hold for the grander Crusade, maybe he thinks the Imperium will deal with it, or maybe he is at a loss and needs to think through how to handle Caliban's issue. Whatever his decision, we can assume he still believes that Caliban will be an issue that needs to be dealt with.

 

I think the events with the Sarosh opened Jonson's eyes to a solution. Who does he send back to Caliban immediately after the short campaign?

 

1) The two Librarians who dealt directly with, and stopped, a powerful Chaos entity enslaving an entire world.

2) All the marines who experienced the fighting in that specific encounter.

3) He gives instructions to Cypher, his hand picked expert on the secret nature of caliban.

4) He ignores all suggestion from either the fleet or Caliban to remove them. They are there for a reason known only to Jonson himself!

 

The Luther, Zahariel, and the other marines are sent back to defeat the Chaos taint in Caliban. They are put in place, with the Lion's belief that they will act accordingly when the time comes. They are not told of the nature of their mission, because that would doom Caliban in advance, they are trusted perform as ordered, with Cypher on hand to educate them when the time comes, when they can handle the information. And this is largely how it unfolds.

 

However, the Lion does not anticipate a few things.

 

1) The rebellion led by the displaced nobels

2) The hostility to the Imperium and the Empire

3) Luthor's jealousy

4) The feeling of betrayal the marines feel - they don't understand why they're on Caliban and look for reasons instead of trusting in Jonson

5) Man's seduction to the power of Chaos, and the mistaken belief it can be controlled

 

All these things fester, so that when the time comes to act, even though the Lion's plan is successful, (using the knowledge revealed by Cypher, Zaharial, and the veterans of Sarosh, guided by Luthor are able to combat the Chaos taint, without destroying Caliban), he has lost both his Legion and Caliban.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Great analysis ODM, is pretty much like my theory on Lion sending DA to Caliban, but more developped.