Fallen Angels

[ODM]

Exactly. Your theory was my starting point. The one thing I didn't see mentioned in this great discussion was Cypher. It's a big revelationwhen they find out Cypher was an expert in the Chaos taint on Caliban, but they don't grasp why he was chosen and then left to advise Luthor.

 

Cypher obviously has his own instructions from the Lion, and they invole exposing Luthor to the Library and monitoring his research.

 

It goes wrong because of the people involved, and the Lion's lack of understanding human nature.But the fact that Cypher is there is key.

 

Great analysis ODM, is pretty much like my theory on Lion sending DA to Caliban, but more developped.

[Vassakov]

Hmmm...

 

*The intent of the following post is not to flame or troll, merely to further the debate and to add conspiracy theories. It also contains Spoilers. You have been warned.*

 

I respectfully disagree with ODM's interpretation of events, as too much of what he claims does not add up, though I agree with his analysis of the Lion.

 

Assuming that Cypher is placed there by the Lion to monitor Caliban, why, when events are clearly slipping out of control does he side with the rebels? Why not explain to them the nature of the Lions plan? For me, this is the biggest problem with the benevolent Lion theory.

 

In addition, yes, they did help banish the Daemon on Sarosh. But given the Lions upbringing and Calibans nature, it makes more sense to me that the Lion would want shot of them as he may well perceive them as witches. Knowing of the Taint of Caliban, it makes more sense to have the Imperium do his dirty work when Calibans taint is revealed.

 

In addition - which of the Dark Angels is the Lion most likely to have a problem with over Calibans destruction? The fiercely Calibanite ones - the ones he has sent back. It wraps up all the loose ends for him.

[ODM]

I'll have to disagree for a couple of key reasons.

 

1 The Legion is continually being supplied and reinforced from Caliban. 1000s of Caliban marines are being sent to the front lines. These marines would also be an issue if the Lion was trying to 'get rid' of Calabanites.

 

2 most importantly, the marines themselves are in no danger. As they believe themselves, the Imperium would salvage the legion and whatever of the administration it could, plus maybe a couple 100000 important civilians, and the rest would perish.

 

They are not sent to Caliban to die, as even they don't really think that will happen if the taint is found.

 

So, if not sent to die, are they just sent to witness the end of Caliban? If that's the case, then why wouldn't the Lion just let the secret of Caliban out himself? That doesn't make sense either.

 

Why send his best and most stalwort leader, veterans of fighting Chaos, two Librarians, and Cypher to Caliban? So they can save the planet.

 

Also, Cypher is not siding with the rebels, he is trying to keep up on what they know of the situation in the wilds. He is talking to Sar Daviel, who has seen the library and Remiel who has journeyed to the wilds, not the nobels who feel they've lost status.

Hmmm...

 

*The intent of the following post is not to flame or troll, merely to further the debate and to add conspiracy theories. It also contains Spoilers. You have been warned.*

 

I respectfully disagree with ODM's interpretation of events, as too much of what he claims does not add up, though I agree with his analysis of the Lion.

 

Assuming that Cypher is placed there by the Lion to monitor Caliban, why, when events are clearly slipping out of control does he side with the rebels? Why not explain to them the nature of the Lions plan? For me, this is the biggest problem with the benevolent Lion theory.

 

In addition, yes, they did help banish the Daemon on Sarosh. But given the Lions upbringing and Calibans nature, it makes more sense to me that the Lion would want shot of them as he may well perceive them as witches. Knowing of the Taint of Caliban, it makes more sense to have the Imperium do his dirty work when Calibans taint is revealed.

 

In addition - which of the Dark Angels is the Lion most likely to have a problem with over Calibans destruction? The fiercely Calibanite ones - the ones he has sent back. It wraps up all the loose ends for him.

[mughi3]

"so it is with all traitors"

 

Well i finally finished the entire book and it was a great read, much better at standing alone than the first book, but it does mesh nicely together with it.

 

 

I'm glad to see we can finally put the question of the lions loyalties during the heresy to rest.

 

Our primarch is a strategist not a people person....this atually makes quite a bit of sense.

 

 

I sense a rather enraged johnson after reading the final chapter with his discussion with perterabo, when he hears about the massacre at isstvan V yet again he got played and the battle for diamat was all for nothing.

 

 

 

i am curious to see what becomes of Zahariel, he is conflicted about helping luthor attempt to tame chaos. will he go to the watchers for council? will he abide by it?

 

I suddenly feel the need to go hunt down some chaos marines and make them repent.

:lol:

[chaplain mortis]

just finished reading it..... not bad at all..must say that the first chapter pisses over the previous book!

 

still doesnt "feel" 30k enough compared to some other books in the series...but meh suppose the authors cant finish every paragraph with the words mk 4 plate..

 

yep enjoyed it and good ending

[Gondorian]

Just finished it.

 

Thought it was brillient and also made Decent of Angels a much better story. I was disappointed with the first book as I felt the ending was a cop out. Things ended too quickly and to me it seemed that the author just needed a quick way to finish the story. Fallen angels makes that ending better and makes a lot of things make more sense.

And now for my rant filled ravings.

 

No idea how to do the spoiler thingy so

 

 

 

 

 

I found that the loyalty of the Lion was put beyond doubt in this book. How many times does he show anger at traitors to the imperium. Does he not say to Perturabo that he does this for the good of the imperium? He may well be arrogant, he may think he'd be the better warmaster and want that position. How does that make him selfish? He wants to be warmaster because he reckons he'd be better than horus and thus better for the imperium.

Oh and can someone tell me where it says he's planning on riding into terra after the big battle to see who had won. All I see in reference to that is Astelan's ravings in Angels of Darkness. Where in that book does it say the Lion is delaying his return to Terra?

 

As far as I'm concerned the Fallen/Not Fallen split isn't just black and white. The Lion sent Luthor back for the same reason given in the old style fluff, to protect Caliban. Luthor doesn't realise this and gets heart broken at being left behind, he doesn't realise the threat to caliban until his jealousy has taken him making him renounce the Lion who was more loyal to the imperium. The lion sent most of the calabanites back because they would try and protect caliban and not just virus bomb it like the terrans.

Can no one see the tragedy in that Luthor was given such a sacred duty, to protect Caliban in the Lion's stead, and he falls to emotions, something that the Lion never factors into his plans. Cypher was hand picked by the Lion to be Luthor's guide, how else did Luthor find the library. The question, in my opinion is where do Cypher's loyalties lie?

Did he foster Luthor's hate and jealousy against the Lion to lead him down the path of chaos, did he change when he himself began to research in the library?

The Lion left Cypher on caliban to help Luthor learn and act according to the Lion's plan. Does Cypher remain loyal to that plan or does he betray the lion.

 

Also I found Astelan a little confusing. The bit about fighting the worms as a child, leads me to believe that the worms must be a form of xeno or something origonally found elsewhere in the galaxy. The fact that he, a Terran, sides with Luthor's Callabanites is testiment to the legendry oratory skills of Luthor combined with how he, like all the Angels left on Calliban, felt betrayed and forgotten

 

 

+++ inserted spoiler "thingy" . <_< +++

[ODM]

Just finished it.

 

Thought it was brillient and also made Decent of Angels a much better story. I was disappointed with the first book as I felt the ending was a cop out. Things ended too quickly and to me it seemed that the author just needed a quick way to finish the story. Fallen angels makes that ending better and makes a lot of things make more sense.

And now for my rant filled ravings.

 

No idea how to do the spoiler thingy so

 

 

 

 

 

I found that the loyalty of the Lion was put beyond doubt in this book. How many times does he show anger at traitors to the imperium. Does he not say to Perturabo that he does this for the good of the imperium? He may well be arrogant, he may think he'd be the better warmaster and want that position. How does that make him selfish? He wants to be warmaster because he reckons he'd be better than horus and thus better for the imperium.

Oh and can someone tell me where it says he's planning on riding into terra after the big battle to see who had won. All I see in reference to that is Astelan's ravings in Angels of Darkness. Where in that book does it say the Lion is delaying his return to Terra?

 

As far as I'm concerned the Fallen/Not Fallen split isn't just black and white. The Lion sent Luthor back for the same reason given in the old style fluff, to protect Caliban. Luthor doesn't realise this and gets heart broken at being left behind, he doesn't realise the threat to caliban until his jealousy has taken him making him renounce the Lion who was more loyal to the imperium. The lion sent most of the calabanites back because they would try and protect caliban and not just virus bomb it like the terrans.

Can no one see the tragedy in that Luthor was given such a sacred duty, to protect Caliban in the Lion's stead, and he falls to emotions, something that the Lion never factors into his plans. Cypher was hand picked by the Lion to be Luthor's guide, how else did Luthor find the library. The question, in my opinion is where do Cypher's loyalties lie?

Did he foster Luthor's hate and jealousy against the Lion to lead him down the path of chaos, did he change when he himself began to research in the library?

The Lion left Cypher on caliban to help Luthor learn and act according to the Lion's plan. Does Cypher remain loyal to that plan or does he betray the lion.

 

Also I found Astelan a little confusing. The bit about fighting the worms as a child, leads me to believe that the worms must be a form of xeno or something origonally found elsewhere in the galaxy. The fact that he, a Terran, sides with Luthor's Callabanites is testiment to the legendry oratory skills of Luthor combined with how he, like all the Angels left on Calliban, felt betrayed and forgotten

 

 

+++ inserted spoiler "thingy" . :) +++

Great synopsis, and I agree about the Cypher question. He was there to guide Luther, but did he guide him the way the Lion anticipated?

[Vassakov]

Personally if a third DA book (Return of Angels...? You heard the wild speculation here first!) wraps it up that neatly, I'll be very disappointed. To me, there are to many missing pieces and non-resistances that should not be explained away with the basic premise; "The Lion doesn't do people, and Luther had a jealousy boo-boo."

 

I still get the feeling that the Lion and Cyphers motives and intents are yet to be fully revealed - and the role of the rebels and the Imperials on Caliban is likely to have significant repercussions. I also suspect that a similar choice as given in Legion is likely to be presented to either Zacherial or Luther - kill the Lion, or watch humanity burn.

 

There are still lose ends, and whilst I'll give you the Lions loyalty, I suspect that he and Cypher were meddling with things beyond their means to control.

 

Calibans destruction could well still rest firmly on Jonsons shoulders.

[ODM]

Well, from what I can tell, this one has ended with Luthor renouncing the Lion, the Emperor, and the Imperium, suggesting they side with Horus, and planning to tap into the Chaos Taint to better enable him to keep Caliban "free". The Lion firmly allied himself with the Imperium and is rousing his full Legion to fight.

 

It's shaping up to match the established fluff quite well, and falling inline with the tragic story arc we've seen in the Heresy. I think the big questions are going to be what Cypher's plans are (his own or the Lion's), what the Watchers do (do they take a more active role), and what happens with Zahariel (does he side with Luthor to use the chaos or does he rebel against him)?

[XgenAdam]

WARNING heavy spoilers!

 

At first I was aggitated by the seeming plot holes in both books;

 

The Emperor is supposed to be the most powerful psycher to have ever lived, yet he was unable to semse the taint on caliban. Zahariels memories were also erased for no reason in Descent of angels which also bugged me.

 

However what if this seeming incompetence was actually a failsafe? Perhaps Luther and the rest were not sent back to Caliban to protect it but with the purpose to betray the Lion and the Imperium. In Legion it was shown that the two most likely futures for humanty were to die utterly at the hands of chaos or slowly sink into corruption. This future was predicted in Legion by the Cabal who also appear to have agents on Caliban in the form of the watchers. I find it hard to believe that the Emperor missed such a thing and as we know from Mechanicum he makes plans that take millenia to come to fruition no matter whatsacrifices he has to make. The difference between the Emperor and the Cabal (sort of a similarity in a way they both look out for number one) is that the Cabal are willing to sacificing all of humaity to save themselves wheras the Emperor is actually solely focused on humaitys protection. Being as the Emperor is a powerful psychic if he foresaw his injusries at the hands of horus and the fate of humanity afterward then I doubt he would sit idly by and let it happen. Coincidentally the Emperor gave th Lion that contained a fragment of his soul as a gift when they first met. Also coincidentaly what spurred Zahariel to finally turn against the Imperium was that his mind had been tampered with on the Emperors orders. We know the Lion appears to be acting in a selfish counterproductive manner, giving the siege weapons to Perturabo and abandonning Luther and the other Fallen. Lord Cypher who he personally appointed who coincidentally has knowledge of the Taint on Caliban happenes to coincidentally be sent to Caliban as well. Luther is coincidentally exposed to Tainted knowledge by Lord Cypher further giving hime the knowledge and power to stave off the doom of Caliban and also happens to coincidentally be able to allow him to defat Johnson and break his sword. Cypher happens to be near by to possibly collect said sword. The actions of the Cabal actually cause the future they most fear.

 

The Golden Throne of the 41st millenium happens to be failing an irreperable fault means it will eventually break down. Cypher appears to be gradually making his way to Terra.

 

 

Some of the above knowledge (and other bits and pieces that have come to light in recent books) suggest to me that things may be playing out the way the Emperor wants. There are many things that at first glance seem to show the Emperor in a less than competant light at first glance anyway. When considered these things appear to be the cause of the Emperors problems. The Fallen rebel meaning there are more enemies to the imperium and the Loyalist Dark Angels do whatever necesarry to keep all knowledge of it from spreading.

 

If Cypher were an agent of the Emperor like the keeper of the dragon (the Emperor had been to mars in the past, why not Caliban?) and his purpose was to reach Terra with Johnson's sword to heal him, the pursuit of the dark angels could be the perfect defense for him, if other powers knew about this then they would interfere. This would also explain why whenever Cypher appears to help Chaos, the Imperium is acutally strengthed because of it. It gives him an alibi and also a degree of safety when travelling. Chaos think he is on their side, so they are less likely to obstruct him on his journey, the actions he takes eventually help the Imperium even though strife is caused. Any potential eveidence either way is conveniently destroyed by the Loyalist DA in an attempt to protect their secret. This adds to the Mystique of Cypher which in a sense is a form of protection for him in its own right.

 

This may not have been possible had the Fallen not rebelled, ergo my theory that that is the intention of the Emperor.

 

To me it is like a large tapestry or puzzle, when considered on their own each piece appear to hold little meaning but when considered as a whole it begins to make sense. for example the Cabal from Legion may have been unwitting tools of the Emperor, likely along with a great many of humanities apparant enemies and allies. Perhaps even Horus's betrayal was part of some grand scheme...

As was mentioned in Mechanicus, there is a fine line that is humantys survival, and the EMperor is willing to do anything to ensure humanity survives.

 

At least that is one potential aspect....

 

 

[KJB]

***Mild Spoilers***

Apologies, spoiler function will not work for me...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you think the author took a break half way through writing the book to play Resident Evil 5 to death?

 

 

I mean come on, worms, zombies, even Ouroburos... I half expected a description of the compound to have an Umbrella symbol instead of an imperial eagle on it... :wacko:

 

 

Made me laugh, good book though!

 

+++ inserted spoilers +++

[brother Hastatus]

I thought it was a good book, even if it was incredibly confusing, but reading this sure has helped. I like ODMs theory the most, that Luther and co were sent back with Cypher to guide them so that when the taint became apparent they could deal with it and save Caliban. However, due to jealousy, etc, they see it as the Lion wanting them to be killed alongside the planet, and not caring about Caliban. This encourages them to renounce the Imperium.

However, I think some other big questions are raised:

1. Why did Cypher not guide them down the Lion's intended path? Had he been tainted by emotions or chaos by this time, or did he have his own plans? Or where there some plans for the long term from even higher up, maybe from the Emperor himself?

2. Astellan. It doesn't all fit, although it makes sense that he thought the Lion was waiting to see who won, when in actual fact the Lion wanted to make a dramatic entrance as the Saviour. Also, it seems they've all converted to chaos by the end of Fallen Angels, which is odd, as Astellan is convinced he is loyal to the Emperor in AoD. But I noticed Astellan features much less in the very end of the book, so perhaps he finds that he is reluctant to finally give up on his Terran roots, and somewhere down the line will desert Luther, but still thinks Jonson is 'evil'. (Hence firing on Jonson when he returns to Caliban.)

3. Zahariel. It seems unlikely he will end up as Cypher now, but I don't think he will turn to chaos. Instead I see him as the DA equivalent of Loken, maybe surviving somehow or other for quite a while.

 

All in all, its practically certain that there will be a third book, in which hopefully it will become slightly less confusing. I hope they don't take all the theories away though, as there would be no fun in that to be honest.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

1. Why did Cypher not guide them down the Lion's intended path? Had he been tainted by emotions or chaos by this time, or did he have his own plans? Or where there some plans for the long term from even higher up, maybe from the Emperor himself?

Luther had a powerfull oratory. Somewhere along the way he shifted sides to Luther... We know know the Lion was a poor judge of character so he may have made a mistake...

 

2. Astellan. It doesn't all fit, although it makes sense that he thought the Lion was waiting to see who won, when in actual fact the Lion wanted to make a dramatic entrance as the Saviour. Also, it seems they've all converted to chaos by the end of Fallen Angels, which is odd, as Astellan is convinced he is loyal to the Emperor in AoD. But I noticed Astellan features much less in the very end of the book, so perhaps he finds that he is reluctant to finally give up on his Terran roots, and somewhere down the line will desert Luther, but still thinks Jonson is 'evil'. (Hence firing on Jonson when he returns to Caliban.)

Pretty much like you say....Judging from AoD book, Astellan was swayed by Luther but then he saw that Luther wasn't quite alright. One thing is for sure.. he dislikes the Lion in both books. :tu:

[Gondorian]

I'm currently re-reading angels of darkness at the moment. The whole point of the book is do you believe what Astlean is saying.

The opening is filled with descriptions of genicide he's committed and justified to himself. The librarian that looks into his mind suggests that Astelan is lying even to himself.

How much of what that Fallen is saying is true? Well that's why we have interrogators.

[brother Hastatus]

I'm currently re-reading angels of darkness at the moment. The whole point of the book is do you believe what Astlean is saying.

The opening is filled with descriptions of genicide he's committed and justified to himself. The librarian that looks into his mind suggests that Astelan is lying even to himself.

How much of what that Fallen is saying is true? Well that's why we have interrogators.

 

But either way, Astellan still believed that he fought for the Emperor by time he is interrogated, even if his actions did not help the Imperium. But in Fallen Angels, Luther and co go against everything to do with the Imperium, including the Emperor himself. So somewhere down the line Astellan must somehow change his mind, and decide that the Emperor still deserves his loyalty, even if Jonson doesn't. The big question is when does he decide that: as soon as Luther goes against Jonson and sides with chaos, or later, after being taken from Caliban? The third book is going to be difficult to do - it has quite a few things to answer and link up, but it also needs to leave enough questions and secrets to make the Dark Angels as enigmatic and mysterious as they always were.

[Deathwing]

Yay finished reading this book too.

 

I quite liked it, and really made Descent of Angels more understandable. The marines weren't too over the top either and did what I expected (slaughter guardsmen & animals yet fight for their lives against fellow Astartes and those Praetorians)

 

I really like the theories and speculations proposed by my fellow Dark Angels here and agree with what most have said (Jonson sending the Calibanites back to protect his home).

 

Eagerly awaiting a third installment as I don't think they can leave it alone at that point. Really want to see where the allegiances lie between the main characters and what Zahariel and Nemiel's reunion will be like (if they even have one of some sort).

 

Though the giant fight did occur after Horus died so may not be appropriate for the Horus Heresy series?

[Dr_Han]

What I found different about this book was the Dark Angels reaction to Johnson.

 

In every other book in the HH series when the marines talk about their Primarchs it is with awe. They literally hero-worship them and act as though they are not worthy to be in their presence.

 

There is not that sense in this book, everyone seems completely unfazed by Johnson. We know that Luthor was the charismatic one of the pair but was it a case of Johnson having no charisma at all? It could be argued that the first legion used to have the Emperor as their commander therefore having his son lead them is nothing special, however this does not explain the actions of such as the Imperial Guard Commander.

[ODM]

I don't necessarily think that's a fair assesment. There's certainly a passage describing the Lion's entrance into the ampitheater when he describes Horus' treachery, and Nemiel, who is working closely with him is still in awe.

 

The majority of the Marines we read about are hand picked vets, who can also be expected to be somewhat over the awestruck puppy stage as they've been fighting with the Lion for decades.

 

As for the Army officer, I'll have to reread the section you're mentioning.

[Brother Caedrius]

Throughout this forum there are posts that state that Luther didn't understand why he had been sent back to Caliban, and his petty jealousies led him to renounce his Primarch....now this may be so, but it just doesn't sit right for me.

 

Yes, it is explained in all the fluff that Luther became jealous of Jonsons command etcetc, but what IF the catalyst for Luthers melancholy was the planet itself? What if the Chaos taint tapped into Luthers emotions and manipulated them, making his anger and sense of betrayal seem far greater than they really were. He has spent all his life living on what we now know to be a tainted planet, a lifetimes exposure to the taint of Chaos would have had a profound effect on him - and what does Chaos like? Humans.....Why? Because they're weak minded and easy to bend to their will! We've already seen the powers of Chaos use this tactic on Horus.....and that was pretty successful don't you think?

[Brother Amarel]

what IF the catalyst for Luthers melancholy was the planet itself? What if the Chaos taint tapped into Luthers emotions and manipulated them, making his anger and sense of betrayal seem far greater than they really were.

I like to think that he was little, to no, different from before - the situation changed rather than him. There's a big Chaos thing kicking off, Lion isn't sure where he stands (torn between his Emperor and his chaos-infected home planet), then he makes a split-seconds decision: Emperor. And in that moment he sees that the Calibanites are corrupted and impure.

 

Think of it like a Norseman heading out to see more of the World and then when he gets back to his tribe he has an epiphany - his friends and family are Chaos Marauders: the fearsome, blood-thirsty beasts that the rest of the continents are terrorised of.

[ODM]

Throughout this forum there are posts that state that Luther didn't understand why he had been sent back to Caliban, and his petty jealousies led him to renounce his Primarch....now this may be so, but it just doesn't sit right for me.

 

Yes, it is explained in all the fluff that Luther became jealous of Jonsons command etcetc, but what IF the catalyst for Luthers melancholy was the planet itself? What if the Chaos taint tapped into Luthers emotions and manipulated them, making his anger and sense of betrayal seem far greater than they really were. He has spent all his life living on what we now know to be a tainted planet, a lifetimes exposure to the taint of Chaos would have had a profound effect on him - and what does Chaos like? Humans.....Why? Because they're weak minded and easy to bend to their will! We've already seen the powers of Chaos use this tactic on Horus.....and that was pretty successful don't you think?

 

I agree it could play a part, and is part of the tragedy. It's not just jealousy though, it's a feeling of betrayal too. Finally, it's the sense that Caliban itself will be destroyed out of hand by the Imperium, a sense of despair.

 

All of those are perfect emotions for Chaos to prey upon.

[ODM]

what IF the catalyst for Luthers melancholy was the planet itself? What if the Chaos taint tapped into Luthers emotions and manipulated them, making his anger and sense of betrayal seem far greater than they really were.

I like to think that he was little, to no, different from before - the situation changed rather than him. There's a big Chaos thing kicking off, Lion isn't sure where he stands (torn between his Emperor and his chaos-infected home planet), then he makes a split-seconds decision: Emperor. And in that moment he sees that the Calibanites are corrupted and impure.

 

Think of it like a Norseman heading out to see more of the World and then when he gets back to his tribe he has an epiphany - his friends and family are Chaos Marauders: the fearsome, blood-thirsty beasts that the rest of the continents are terrorised of.

 

I don't think this is the analogy I'd use, because it assumes that the Lion feels Caliban is doomed, and that his men are corrupted, and I don't think he does. I think he sees the danger, but thinks Chaos can be contained and dealt with, like on Sarosh, and sends back his best team to deal with it. Of course he misses the human failings that cause the fall, and maybe misunderstands the true nature of chaos, it's not only a direct physical danger to be fought, it's also an insidious worm that burrows into the mind causing doubt and misgivings.

 

A better analogy I'd see in the Emperor himself. He knows of Chaos, and knows his Primarchs will encounter it. When he leaves the great crusade to move onto his next work, he doesn't tell them of the nature and danger of Chaos, he just trusts that they can deal with it as long as they hold firm. He doesn't know the doubts, insecurities and fears that plague Horus and his brothers, and allow Chaos it's entrance, because he doesn't have them himself. Sound familiar?

 

I guess this goes back to my theory that the story Fall of Caliban is a parallel to the Horus Heresy itself I guess, but that's another thread.

[with an iron fist]

This book explained quite a bit through context - it's funny how Zahariel is like a 400th century version of John Sheridan from Babylon 5. The only "concern" is the taint of Caliban - We have a defined timeline of the four major Chaos powers coming into being, where does this fall on it?

[Abaddonshand]

Okay, I got the book as an advance order from Amazon, but only finished it this morning (was working my way throught the Ciaphas Cain omnibus). Firstly, I'll point out a few consistency flaws I noticed (both within the book itself and in its relation to the HH series), before moving onto the juicy stuff and my opinion on the raging debate :D

 

!Spoilers will be present in normal text in part 2 of this post!

 

PART 1

Inconsistencies: 1. Brother Titus, the Dreadnought had an assault cannon. Assault cannons did not exist at the time of the heresy (this also happens in an earlier book, Fulgrim I think). This is a big problem in my books.

 

2. The Emperor outlawed the use of Librarians at the Council of Nikea, and sends Russ to slap Magnus on the wrist for disobeying (allowing Horus to trick Russ into decimating the Thousand Sons). If Librarians are illegal, how come the Dark Angels get to keep theirs?

 

3. The squad Nemiel accompanies have a few property issues, namely, at several times Brothers Varrus and Marthes swap weapons. One is the meltagunner, and the other carries a heavybolter, yet they often are described using each other's gun.

 

4. The worms native to Caliban that grow to monstrous proportions are recognised by Astelan, a Terran-born Dark Angel, who claims they were present where he grew up.

 

Right, the inconsistencies I can remember have been dealt with, now for the good part!

 

PART 2

 

!WITH SPOILERS!

 

 

Firstly, I think Lucifier and ODM's arguments about why the Lion sent Luther et al back to Caliban are very good, however as the Lion is stated to have been ignoring all reports from Caliban, a massive problem appears. Surely, having sent them to counter the Taint, he would want to know how they were getting on.

 

We know exactly what the Watchers are, they are a psychicly sensitive Xeno species, native to Caliban. Any evidence of a supposed connection with the Cabal is purely circumstancial at this point.

 

Lion can't be faulted for handing the seige engines to Perturabo. Sure, all of us with hindsight facepalmed as we realised the identity of the Primarch in question, but the Lion didn't have the knowledge we have. He is the best strategist in the Imperium, other than the Emperor (note the difference between strategist and tactician, with the later relating to the bigger picture, while the former relates to the battle at hand).

 

The Emperor's lacking awareness of the Taint on Caliban (if he did lack suck awareness, at the moment there is no proof either way - his failure to anihilate the planet is not proof of a lack of awareness) can be attributed to a number of reasons; (a) the great beasts manifested by the taint had been wiped out by the time he arrived, (:P the forests had not been cleared (seriously at least) until after he left, © as is pointed out numerous times in the book, the number of Psykers in the Caliban population was extremely low.

 

Finally, it seems fairly obvious the new Lord Cypher will become Cypher of renoun, answering questions as to his origins, but raising more as to why he was appointed and what his motives are.

 

Overall, I really enjoyed the book, it rounded off the DA history nicely. It was better than DoA, but taken together they work well. A third outing would be nice, but not that necessary, as lose ends are what the DA thrive on ;)

[ODM]

I thought about this too, so my thoughts on the Lion isolating/ignoring the marines left on Caliban is that they were there for a reason. A failsafe device for when Chaos surfaced, rather like a nuclear arsenal. They are not going to be allowed to leave Caliban no matter what and interacting with them, when he can't answer any questions about why or bring them back into the fleet it pointless/frustrating to everyone involved. I think it's a sore point to him, and he realizes that when it all goes to hell, he'll be told.

 

In addition, I got the impression that he may still be communicating with Cypher. When Zahariel barges in demanding to see Luthor, Cypher says, "but the Primarch..." I don't think he was referring to 50 year old orders.

 

As for the worms, actually thought all along that the worms came with the Terrans, much like rats, aboard ship. They were just a fact of life in planetary colonizations. Remember, that's about the size they would be naturally. That's why none of the Calabanites recognized them. When Astelan realized what they were, that was just what I read into it.