Beef Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 people keep talking about the lion sending his best men back to caliban to protect it from chaos. Thats utter bull in my opinion. A bit more respect by other people's opinions would be nice. It's fine to disagree but courtesy goes a long way... Sorry did not meen to be discoureous to anybody, I did state "its utter bull " IN MY~ opinion. Anyway back on track I hope the 3rd book clears everything up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2053016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 people keep talking about the lion sending his best men back to caliban to protect it from chaos. Thats utter bull in my opinion. If that was the case why did he not just tell Luther about the library and the chaos stuff. why let him find out himself or through Cypher. Also why have the soul surviving memeber of your arch enemy in your inner circle. Makes no sence,. I know the lion could not read people very well but you would have to be a complete idiot to allow that to happen. I dont doubt his loyalty to the EMP but his motives. Hopefully the 3rd book will end all the speculation Seconded. I agree with this completely! I think motivation is the key here to understanding him as a character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2053271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODM Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 ++++SPOILER ALERT++++ I wonder if during the ritual to attempt to bind the demon whether Zahariel may have actually been possessed by the daemon? That how he knew its name, and he knew the taint, the taint is him! Hence the being unconscious for 8 months and why that number "meant something" but he did not know what. 8 points on the Chaos star and all that. I thought/think this too. Just a couple of teaser lines in the book, but I think we might have lost Zahariel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2053962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Zahariel is a powerful psyker and I'm sure his liberian training would have delt with th dangers of warp creatures. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2053973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylewayne58 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I think Zahariel is still sitting on the fence. On the one hand he has his loyalty to the Primarch and the Emperor, on the other he has his loyalty to Luthor. In my opinion that internal conflict will affect how the actual schism goes down when the Lion gets home. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2054029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODM Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 We know he's a powerful psycher, but: He is pushed to far He is out for 8 weeks, and thinks that's a significant number He knows the daemon's real name, and that it's not gone. If you read between the lines, there are some ominous things coming for Zahariel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2054274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Zahariel is a powerful psyker and I'm sure his liberian training would have delt with th dangers of warp creatures. Bearing in mind that few of the Primarchs had any real knowledge of what dwelt in the warp, I think the a file Librarian would have a sketchy at best understanding of exactly what was arrayed against him. It's entirely possible that Zacherial and Luther will become corrupted without ever truly realising what they are doing at this point. We shall see what we shall see, I think... Certainly attempting to use the Warp to save Caliban from the Imperium would be suitably ironically tragic, as well as dovetail nicely with existing fluff. Even AoD. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2054334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCEET Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Remember Zahariel is still a novice psyker, especially when it comes to using his terror sight. The warp is still new to many in the Imperium and so difficult to control. Also he did not have the added protection of his psychic hood, which was already struggling to cope with the extreme exposure to the warp. All signals imo point to possession but we will have to wait and see. Zahariel is a powerful psyker and I'm sure his liberian training would have delt with th dangers of warp creatures. Bearing in mind that few of the Primarchs had any real knowledge of what dwelt in the warp, I think the a file Librarian would have a sketchy at best understanding of exactly what was arrayed against him. It's entirely possible that Zacherial and Luther will become corrupted without ever truly realising what they are doing at this point. We shall see what we shall see, I think... Certainly attempting to use the Warp to save Caliban from the Imperium would be suitably ironically tragic, as well as dovetail nicely with existing fluff. Even AoD. I think the fact that Luthor had glowing runes on him when Israfael attacked him, when in the past he had shown no psychic ability whatsoever pretty much proves that Luthor has already fallen to the taint. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2054346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 We know he's a powerful psycher, but: He is pushed to far He is out for 8 weeks, and thinks that's a significant number He knows the daemon's real name, and that it's not gone. If you read between the lines, there are some ominous things coming for Zahariel. If he knows the daemon's real name, but doesn't want to divulge it, that could point to possession. After all, if Luther knows the daemon's true name, and it's bound into a vessel like a Space Marine Librarian, it's pretty well controlled and a formidable tool that makes the Calibanite complement a force to be reckoned with even in the face of the rest of the Legion. The Calibanite daemon probably doesn't like being bound (do any daemons?) so it's best to let Luther believe the summoning experiment failed and instead begin corrupting the Luther and the Legionnaires stationed on Caliban. Subsequently, the Watchers give the Lion the heads-up, who heads back and pops Caliban, presumably after a big battle that proves the might of the Calibanite daemon and leaves no option but to nuke the planet. That's probably the least interesting and most predictable of the potential conclusions to the Dark Angels' saga. It'd be far more interesting if no one was really at fault, except the Lion. Edit: I don't think the presence of the Hexagrammic Wards all over Luther suggest corruption. It's entirely possible he's been studying the Warp literature in the Library with prudence and, after learning about the Wards, put them on himself to allow for further study without risking corruption. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2054540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I'll have to disagree on your first point there, Trel. Traditionally, or at least since Ursula le guin's Earthsea books, having the true name of something is to have power and control over it. Also, those sections are written from Zahariel's perspective, and if he is possessed then its unlike any other possession which has featured in BL literature (in each case the daemons personality superimposes over that of the possessed, and pushes the host to the side). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2054603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I think you may have misunderstood me. My thinking was that the Daemon of Caliban possessed or, at least, has found some way to anchor itself in this world via Zahariel. Zahariel may still be in control but under extraordinary influence by the daemon. Zahariel and the daemon may have merged personalities. Certainly, though, he/it doesn't want the daemon's true name getting out. (Maybe Zahariel's natural Dark Angel tendencies to keep secrets are kicking in and he's going to try to control the daemon alone without Luther) I can think of a few instances of posession that are subtle in the BL books. Not all possessions are step 1: daemon enters, step 2: person is now raving lunatic. The posession of Carl Thonius in the Ravenor books, for example. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2055107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCEET Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Plus you only hear from Zahariel for 6 pages and he says very little and there are very little "inner thoughts" which is where most insight into the possession is given. Most of that short chapter is the description of the Apothecarium and of Brother Attias. True about Luthor and the runes, but as he has no psychic training most would deam him a heretic for bearing such runes on himself, regardless of if they work or not. I think his ideal to try and control the warp AND the runes that decorate him show where Luthor is headed. I wonder if Astelan rebels against Luthor (thinking Luthor has been tainted) and that's why he gives the order to fire on the Lion? From what I remember of AoD he didn't speak overly highly of Luthor but despised the Lion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2055149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODM Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Plus you only hear from Zahariel for 6 pages and he says very little and there are very little "inner thoughts" which is where most insight into the possession is given. Most of that short chapter is the description of the Apothecarium and of Brother Attias. True about Luthor and the runes, but as he has no psychic training most would deam him a heretic for bearing such runes on himself, regardless of if they work or not. I think his ideal to try and control the warp AND the runes that decorate him show where Luthor is headed. I wonder if Astelan rebels against Luthor (thinking Luthor has been tainted) and that's why he gives the order to fire on the Lion? From what I remember of AoD he didn't speak overly highly of Luthor but despised the Lion. Yeah, I can see Astelan deciding that following Luthor the Sorceror wasn't such a good idea, but also not wantting to admit he had broken his faith with the Emperor, however temporarily. Given his hate for the Lion and the fact that Luthor goes a little of the reservation, falling back to the emperor might be pretty natural. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2055288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Proteus Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 8 weeks? hmm....8 is Khorne's number, right? So...he's gonna get spiky? We'll have a space marine with Cloud Strife hair? No, seriously, sounds like we got some Khorne on the cob going here. -P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2056549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaeus Marius Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 How do you view the spoilers? I may be a novice on this forum, but it is kinda hard to follow the dialogue when it's all blacked out.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2056733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Gaeus Marius Posted Today, 10:53 PM How do you view the spoilers? I may be a novice on this forum, but it is kinda hard to follow the dialogue when it's all blacked out.... Highlight it as if you were going to copy and paste it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2056744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCEET Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Highly unlikely he will be devoted to Khorne as Khorne has a hatred of psychic powers and magic as it takes away from martial prowess. More likely the 8 pointed star of chaos undivided is what is referred too imo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2057889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ransem Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 We know he's a powerful psycher, but: He is pushed to far He is out for 8 weeks, and thinks that's a significant number He knows the daemon's real name, and that it's not gone. If you read between the lines, there are some ominous things coming for Zahariel. I smell a Malus Darkblade-esque Zahariel in the near future... hopefully some of you know of him. On Cypher: anyone else notice all he ever really does is blow up random stuff every once in a while, kill specific people every once in a while, influence key members of government every once in a while, trick a couple peeps every once in a while... over a period of 10,000 years. The Emperor basically did the exact same thing for 20,000 years before appearing and taking over. I smell Mr. Cypher being Mr. Sensei (if you don't know what that is Lexicanum it). On the Fallen: I find it's kinda funny (AND I CAN SAY THIS I HAD ONE TOO) that people still play Fallen armies. Skirmishes of under 1000 points: Ok. 2000 points: AoD states there are somewhere around 40 (if I can remember) Fallen Angels that didn't die/disappear for good after Caliban. 2000+ Who are you kidding you're playing pre-Heresy. All in all, I'm kind of sick of GW name dropping/hint dropping/race dropping (bring back squats you jerks) and then coming over and Alpha legion branding me while they retcon the :wallbash: out of themselves. Now I'm going to go beat myself with a shovel until I can't remember nothing 'cause I play Space Wolves now and I all I need to know for them is I don't like green guys with them capey capes and blue guys with those weirdo gold hats... Ransem Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2058013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCEET Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Malus Darkblade the Dark Elf character? The one who gets possessed by his sword but never being fully possessed? Quite possible. As for Cypher, I dont think he could be a Sensei from the way I read Fallen Angels the current Cypher (brandishing two pistols i might add) seems to be the last of the Knights of Lupus who dabbled in Chaos, caging the wild beasts from the forests of Caliban. If i remember aren't the Sensei supposed to be related/part of the emperor? If so a)Why would they dabble with chaos? b)The emperor is still alive by this point so I can't see how Cypher could be "part" of him. Although his task maybe to journey the galaxy for the greater good of humanity/use the lion sword (which I read somewhere has part of the Emperor's soul in it???) to give life back to the Emperor. I thought I read somewhere in AoD it was 136 or something around that figure would have to check. You are right though 2000+ points of "purely" fallen angels isn't fluffy however if allied with a guard (traitor or loyalist) contingent there is no reason you couldn't play larger points values. I used to use a Lost and the Dammed army list for such occassions. (Not that you can anymore :wallbash:) The mystery I feel only helps develop the back story and fluff of the Dark Angels and whilst it provides "some" answers it generates more questions. I would be more annoyed if GW went "Then the Lion turned traitor, the end". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2058053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dethspec Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 OK, I'm new so please don't roast me. The blanked spoilers are ticking me off. How do I turn that off? I have read the book but cannot discuss because people's stuff is blanked out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2058156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 OK, I'm new so please don't roast me. The blanked spoilers are ticking me off. How do I turn that off? I have read the book but cannot discuss because people's stuff is blanked out. Its just been said a few post back, Highlight the blanked out bits as if you are trying to copy and pasteit. The spoilers are in the same colour as the background so you cant see them until you highlight them to do that hold the left mouse key and drag the mouse over the blancked out bit whilst holding the left mouse key down. hope that makes sence and helps Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2058212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dethspec Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Thanks Beef. I was seriously frustrated looking through the user control panel and post options, so gave up after the second page and went to bed and never made it to the post :-) Now that I can read some points, I will post some of my thoughts. Which I am sure you guys 'quiver with anticipation'* *Bilbo Baggins Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2058560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Kezek Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 I believe the real villain will turn out to be Cypher. The Lion is a poor judge of character and is being played like a chump. Heck, He probably doesn't even know Cypher is the last surviving knight of lupus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2058873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCEET Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 That's not the impression Remiel and Sar Daviel give, they give the impression that's why he was chosen as Cypher. With no ties to the Order only to the Lion himself. But I think you are right Cypher is definately the key. He seems to be manipulating everyone, probably not helped by the corrupting influence of the Library of Lupus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2058927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Kezek Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 That's not the impression Remiel and Sar Daviel give, they give the impression that's why he was chosen as Cypher. With no ties to the Order only to the Lion himself. But I think you are right Cypher is definately the key. He seems to be manipulating everyone, probably not helped by the corrupting influence of the Library of Lupus. I would love to know how the new Cypher presented himself to the Lion. "Hey Jonson, You killed everybody I knew and loved, but thats cool. I hear you might have a new job opening coming up. Don't worry. I won't used that new position to seek revenge and destroy everything around you." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/170257-fallen-angels/page/6/#findComment-2059069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.