Fallen Angels

[DCEET]

It was more probable that the Lion purely said "Explain the purpose of the books or die like your brethren" I would have imagined.

 

The only thing is did the Lion realise that Cypher would help foster the corruption of Luthor? I'm sure if Zahariel had been allowed access he would have been able to deter Luthor from reading the contents of the library.

[Raven Angel]

You know I'm begining to notice common sence doesn't seem to be very common with mor than a few people in this time frame and not just the Lion.

[Prathios]

I'm not going to wade into the myriad of arguments brought about by this book but I am going to make a frustrating observation. After finishing this book and having read all the others in the series and collected visions and such I have come to one sad conclusion. Jonson may be the single most incompetent leader of men I've read about in Warhammer.

 

Yes this is inflammatory to those who are not objective but its true. Given that it doesn't matter why you think he sent the force back to Caliban his handling of the situation from day one was wantonly incorrect and left the Calabanites with one choice. I do think he sent them back to die however. Now had he dealt with the taint when the Emperor first arrived none of this would have been an issue, but instead he hid it away which is disloyal in my opinion. (of course the emperors failure to see the taint is also something of an issue. It can't be rationally explained.)

 

But the fact remains that even Nemial has doubts in his own Primarch. He continues to have these doubts all the way through the book. Jonson does not inspire loyalty or trust in his legion, something all the other primarchs excel at. The weight of personality, charisma, and character in the other Primarchs was legendary and yet here is a man who is unable to even keep his own legion loyal. Jonson was brilliant to be sure and a phenomenal general and strategist... but a horrible and incompetent leader. His inablity to judge people's character and even operate in a human way socially hamstrings him as a failure. This talk that he would have been a better warmaster? I think only that if you believe he could not have been turned (which is highly speculative since he is prone to massive egotism which is easily stoked) can you claim this. I believe had Jonson been named warmaster he would likely have been replaced before he was given the chance to turn. You cannot lead men with his character flaw. You cannot deal with governors, admirals, and other Primarchs and secure loyalty and friendship and trust if you cannot stop being an ass.

 

So by the end of the book my general feeling was simply this: I was sad for Luther that he was put in the position he was in, he made Jonson and was cast aside for wanting more. I was sad for Jonson that he was so tragically flawed by his social retardation. I was astonished that one of the Primarchs, let alone the first legions was so completely inept at his role in the galaxy. Jonson was likely the smartest of them all, and yet last place in the chain of leadership potential. In a ranking of greatest to least I would rank him last behind even Angron for his greatness because of his inability to even keep his own legion loyal to him.

 

I'm sorry if anyone is offended by this post or feels I am being unfair but since I have no bias here I think I can argue quite well that this is not at all malicious in its intent or agenda driven. If you're a DA fan please do not be upset, the Calabanites actually showed some of the most honorable of all the characters in the series. It is unfortunate they were the ones left to rot. Luther would actually have made a better Primarch than Jonson, ironically.

 

edit: some spelling errors

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

QFT.

 

WLK

[SamaNagol]

I got the impression that Jonson initiated the purge of the forests because he somehow knew his 'father' would come and wanted to remove the visible signs of the taint from the world which would have otherwise been wiped clean.

 

But then, he is ultimately doing the same thing Luther wants and that is to protect the planet. And it is in their differing methods, one looking to hide and eradicate the other looking to harness and control this evil power within the core of Caliban that they end up coming to conflict.

[Raven Angel]

I am a DA player and at this point being half through the book and having read both Decent and AoD I'd have to say he glorymongering. He had the whole of his Legion to draw on and only took that small force. Bad call, very bad call. And no his penchent for secrets goes way beyond what the Order had and is destroying the faith of his men 1 commander at a time.

[Brother-Kezek]

I am a DA player and at this point being half through the book and having read both Decent and AoD I'd have to say he glorymongering. He had the whole of his Legion to draw on and only took that small force. Bad call, very bad call. And no his penchent for secrets goes way beyond what the Order had and is destroying the faith of his men 1 commander at a time.

Like father, like son. He pretty much made the same mistake handling Luther, that the Emperor made with Horus. Why would you keep your number one man out of the loop? I'm a DA player and it pains me to say this but, Luther should have put a bolt in the Lion's head the moment he found him.

[Prathios]

I must say its refreshing to see your objectivity as DA players, bravo. As for the Emperor, you hit the nail on the head. His dealing with Horus was exhibiting the same quality in that instance he passed on to Jonson. Its a good thing for mankind he did not behave in this manner all the time. Oh wow... I just had a quote hit me that sums up the Emperors dealing with Horus perfectly and ironically, "A moment of laxity can spawn a lifetime of heresy." And it did!

[Raven Angel]

Like father, like son. He pretty much made the same mistake handling Luther, that the Emperor made with Horus. Why would you keep your number one man out of the loop? I'm a DA player and it pains me to say this but, Luther should have put a bolt in the Lion's head the moment he found him.

 

I'm begining to think you may have been right there.

 

I must say its refreshing to see your objectivity as DA players, bravo. As for the Emperor, you hit the nail on the head. His dealing with Horus was exhibiting the same quality in that instance he passed on to Jonson. Its a good thing for mankind he did not behave in this manner all the time. Oh wow... I just had a quote hit me that sums up the Emperors dealing with Horus perfectly and ironically, "A moment of laxity can spawn a lifetime of heresy." And it did!

 

Many of the Primarchs were handel very baddly and not given the attention they need to become stable people. If anything the Emperors actions show one thing above all else he was not the god his people want him to be and about many things he was definitly blind.

[Commander Proteus]

If anything, I think this book shows Jonson to be the most focused of the primarchs. I don't necessarily mean that in a good way however. It seems to me that he only thinks of the immediate, and the present, with little thought to the future. I cite his battle plan, the fact that he relied heavily on Nemiel for morale and leadership, and that he didnt think to use the siege weapons himself, and was only content to secure them.

 

Not to say that he can't be tactically astute, and a combat monster in his own right. He is a primarch. I just seem to view this book as his taking a backseat in things. Plus, I can't see a any good leader telling any portion of his combat resources to take a vacation...permanently.

 

I was slightly embarrassed as a Dark Angel to hear his sentiments on the aftermath of the heresy.

 

-Proteus

[Pyriel]

Like father, like son. He pretty much made the same mistake handling Luther, that the Emperor made with Horus. Why would you keep your number one man out of the loop? I'm a DA player and it pains me to say this but, Luther should have put a bolt in the Lion's head the moment he found him.

Agree.

Lion must have been the single most stupid primarch of them all.

Throwing away 500 marines and the second in command on a half century garrison duty and then being surprised about the consequences, geez.

Luther should have offed the fool as soon as he saw him, the DAs would have done so much better under him instead.

[eyeslikethunder]

Whats all this wow what a clever general stuff, his great plan to be warmaster fails because his pride is greater than his skill. He fails to save the day and emperor dies because of it. He falls into the same trap Alpharius did started to trying the make things harder for himself to make himself look better.

 

Sort of proving why Guilliman was better

[ODM]

Whats all this wow what a clever general stuff, his great plan to be warmaster fails because his pride is greater than his skill. He fails to save the day and emperor dies because of it. He falls into the same trap Alpharius did started to trying the make things harder for himself to make himself look better.

 

Sort of proving why Guilliman was better

 

Which book did you read? Fails to save the day and the emperor dies? What?

 

He takes a very small, elite force to capture and hold the Seige engines from Horus' forces, and he does just that, defeating a rogue Adeptus Mechanicus army to boot. He then hands them over to the representative of Dorn's forces headed to Istvaan.

 

Pertuabo and the other traitor legions fooled the entire imperium. The trap he falls in is the same one Corax, Ferrus, Haephaestus, Dorn and the Emperor fell into with Istvaan.

 

The Lion's pride has nothing to do with it.

[zyx]

Some very interesting points here.

But to go off on a tangent, there is one part of the story I would like to draw attention to. It is Zahariel's last thought described in the book. To paraphrase, "Zahariel knew the source of Caliban's taint, and he knew its name".

This, to me is a very tantilising line. Does it refer to the conqueror worm trapped underground....or to Luther? Or perhaps even to Cypher?

 

What are your thoughts?

[DCEET]

My thoughts would be the worm. I think if it was Luthor or Cypher it would have been worded "His Name" rather than "It's Name". Bearing in mind the whole ritual was to try and obtain its name thus power over the daemon my two pence.

[ForTheLion]

If anything what both Books do, is show how Different the Lion is from all the other primarchs, he might not be the "out of his mind" angron, or the perfectionist fulgrim, or the noble Guiliman. But he has something which all the HH books dont show other primarchs to have. Humanity.

Considering thats half the primarchs turned to chaos rather easily, the lion walked between black and white and managed to stay out of the black side. He dsnt feel comfortable among his astartes because hes a primarch , there were only 21 people in the entire universe that could match his Biology and thought pattern and he hadnt seen them for many years. So if you were stuck in a house with 10 year olds for 100 years id wonder if you would share youre "highly intelegent" thoughts with them.

 

Sending 500 Astartes to Caliban to train others was actualy one of the best moves he could do, and we see in the book that it worked perfectly fine, i think that Luther even invented a new process which halved the time it took previously.

 

As for beeing power Hungry...well seeing that half the primarchs turned its obvious they too wanted power or something that meant power for them, yet the lion didnt! So if you wana be criticising good old Lionel then i have 1 thing to say to you! He didnt turn to chaos! He fought Luther on Caliban with sadness just as the Emperor did with Horus. If anything Lion is a Mirror Image of the Emperor Falling victim to his Humanity

 

PS: The source of the taint clearly beeing Luther! In fact im pretty sure in the next Angel book, well see Zah trying to save Luther from his downfall into Chaos

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

are you seriously trying to make the arguement that the Lion has levels of humanity that havent been displayed in other primarchs to this date?

cause if you ware, and i mean this in the nicest way possible, i would like to borrow your copy of fallen angels and see how it differs from mine.

 

the one, ONE fact that was driven home about the Lion in this book was his utter pragmatic nature and the ramificiations it has on the Lion. how many times was the Lion, a man full of humanity as you say, shown in Fallen ANgels to be unable to read a person, going so far to ask Nemiel what he thinks of the man.

it states that the Lion was raised in the woods of Caliban alone for so many years, and because of this DOESNT have the common connection to humanity that other primarchs might have.

you might want to re-read Descent of Angels as well, cause while the military campaigns of unified Caliban are his doings, the very act of unifying caliban was beyond him, Luthor had to be his spokesman and do the passioned speeches.

 

and while re-deploying 500 combat vets is not a bad move, leaving them there for so long is. it is now completely easy to see why they thought rebellign was a good option.

 

WLK

[Raven Angel]

I think Zahariel means the Deamon and I also think that he in not in agreement to Luther's chosen course. Luther has a little Knowldege but no real idea of what he's messing with. I don't know what Cypher has told him but I doubt he is really any better equiped to deall with this creature either. Only Zahariel would have a real idea of what they are dealing with and he's not sharing.

 

As for the Lion I will agree that his flaws add to his humanity but emotional he strikes me as a cold fish. He simple doesn't relate to others well mainly because he can't judge them and so fears what he doesn't completly see or understand.

[Terrahawk]

One thing I'd like to add is that there's no reason to place all the blame for Luther's corruption on the Lion's hands. Seriously, we are talking about military organizations here. Which the Astartes perfectly embody. The Lion is the leader of the Legion and if he tells his inferior (Luther) to go train some recruits that is exactly what Luther does. Not embrace the Dark Gods and start a rebellion against the Imperium of Man.

 

Same thing goes for Horus. :)

[Azazal]

While no expert in the field by any means, but The Lion shows some interesting signs that he might have Asperger syndrome

 

From good old wiki:

The lack of demonstrated empathy is possibly the most dysfunctional aspect of Asperger syndrome. Individuals with AS experience difficulties in basic elements of social interaction, which may include a failure to develop friendships or to seek shared enjoyments or achievements with others (for example, showing others objects of interest), a lack of social or emotional reciprocity, and impaired nonverbal behaviors in areas such as eye contact, facial expression, posture, and gesture.

 

Unlike those with autism, people with AS are not usually withdrawn around others; they approach others, even if awkwardly. For example a person with AS may engage in a one-sided, long-winded speech about a favorite topic, while misunderstanding or not recognizing the listener's feelings or reactions, such as a need for privacy or haste to leave. This social awkwardness has been called "active but odd". This failure to react appropriately to social interaction may appear as disregard for other people's feelings, and may come across as insensitive.

 

The cognitive ability of children with AS often allows them to articulate social norms in a laboratory context, where they may be able to show a theoretical understanding of other people's emotions; however, they typically have difficulty acting on this knowledge in fluid, real-life situations. People with AS may analyze and distill their observation of social interaction into rigid behavioral guidelines, and apply these rules in awkward ways, such as forced eye contact, resulting in a demeanor that appears rigid or socially naive. Childhood desire for companionship can become numbed through a history of failed social encounters.

 

Pursuit of specific and narrow areas of interest is one of the most striking features of AS. Individuals with AS may collect volumes of detailed information on a relatively narrow topic such as dinosaurs or members of congress, without necessarily having genuine understanding of the broader topic.

 

Children with AS may have an unusually sophisticated vocabulary at a young age and have been colloquially called "little professors", but have difficulty understanding figurative language and tend to use language literally.Children with AS appear to have particular weaknesses in areas of nonliteral language that include humor, irony, and teasing. Although individuals with AS usually understand the cognitive basis of humor they seem to lack understanding of the intent of humor to share enjoyment with others

 

As far as Luther, he was driven to madness and chaos, I have no doubt that Cypher was there pushing him along and making sure he followed the path to damnation, after all the road to hell is paved with good intentions

[BlackDragon]

I can think of a few instances of posession that are subtle in the BL books. Not all possessions are step 1: daemon enters, step 2: person is now raving lunatic. The posession of Carl Thonius in the Ravenor books, for example.

 

Thanks for the spoiler for an omnibus book that I just started reading that isn't part of the Horus Heresy series :)

[ForTheLion]

Also i have to add its quiet original having a Primarch to be shown so alienated, i mean if i ddnt know better id propably think hes "A falling angel" and hes falling towards chaos, but as we know he stayed loyal. Emotions are bad and dangerous things...hell the chaos gods weer born due to emotions :lol: the lack of having emotions is propably one of the things that kept the Lion so repelant to chaos :P

[rocketrollrebel]

I just finished the book tonight and first off I was very glad to see a sequel to "Decent of Angels" (which wasn't nearly as bad as ppl said save for the abrupt ending) and secondly I agree that it made Johnson seem like a total D-Bag while makeing you very sympathetic towards Luther. A great read tho but my only complaint is that to me the parts with Nemiel were not nearly as exciting as what was going on on Caliban hahaha.

[Phoebus]

I don't think a lot of the criticism the Lion gets is very fair.

 

To me, Lion El'Jonson, the Night Haunter, and Leman Russ share a fairly interesting thread. Be patient with me.

 

Night Haunter landed on Nostramo Quintus and was deprived of any real human contact or connection all the way until his father, the Emperor, arrived. His interactions with humankind had, until that point, been devoid of any sort of real connection. He existed only to punish, terrorize, and command. His only other experience was pure survival.

 

Leman Russ found himself in ostensibly similar situations, but in reality he had a much better hand of cards dealt to him. From the beginning, he was part of a family unit--if not a human one. This undoubtedly contributed to his ability to reintegrate with humanity later. Bestial and possessed of great rages, he nonetheless was capable of great mirths as well, and was genuinely loved by his people.

 

Lion El'Jonson is like the middle ground between those two. Like Night Haunter, he was utterly alone at first. Unlike Night Haunter, his base enemy and target wasn't human, though, but bestial. He was able to reintegrate with humans on that basis, but he had no experience where love, friendship, or comraderie was concerned. It is very telling that the one man he was able to forge a friendship and bond with was, literally, the most charismatic man on the planet.

 

In that sense, we shouldn't be surprised that El'Jonson has trust issues. Much has been said regarding his competence as a commander on the basis of that infamous line ("he couldn't read people"), but, again, this had nothing to do with basic social functions or such. The Lion had no problem maneuvering the leader of the Knights of Lupus, nor did he lack for loyalty where his own knights (and, later, Dark Angels) were concerned. Luther himself stated that he had an amazing sense if humor, but that his intellect prevented most from connecting with it. Hardly shocking, given that all Primarchs were superhuman in their genius. His main issue was one of trust--again, an ultimately understandably psychological short-coming given his upbringing... and even moreso given that his best and only friend came close to murdering him. The fact that he recognized his own flaw and had the humility to turn to a man he trusted for advice should have been recognized as a saving grace... but instead was used to paint him as some sort of incompetent.

 

Was Luther's exile such a horrible mistake? Put yourself in El'Jonson's shoes. Your best friend came *this* close to having you killed. He also happens to be the second-in-command of your Legion; and easily the most popular man on your planet. Do you have him killed, in mid-campaign, and try to explain your actions to all your men who shared a life and world with him? Do you put him on trial, and have to deal with the war-time fiasco of your men actually having to choose where their loyalties lie? Sending Luther to Caliban, ostensibly to train more Astartes, was a terrible compromise... but it was better than the alternatives facing the Lion.

 

Sending a few hundred Astartes with Luther was hardly a mistake, either. We know that at least ten thousand Astartes came to Caliban to begin with, and that the Lion left with even more when initial recruitment was complete. We also know that, by the time the events leading to Luther's exile occurred, some twenty thousand or more Astartes had been raised. Five hundred men was a drop in the pond... but they would facilitate the role Luther had been sent to fulfill. As to why they stayed there for so long? Well, now. We haven't been told why they were chosen, either, have we?

 

I mean, Zahariel at the very least covered for Luther. Astelan was the victim of character assassination, but the Lion couldn't have known that. How many of those other Astartes were on some list of wrong-doers?

 

Anyways. None of the Primarchs were perfect. Even the best had flaws. Given the image we have of the Lion now, it's quite clear that Horus' estimation of him in "False Gods" is evidence off his pre-existing hubris (he paints him as being a savage and such). Rogal Dorn himself comes off as so extreme and prone to rages that he appears sort of like a repressed Angron. Leman Russ has more than once been painted as a hot-tempered drunk (the memories of certain Space Wolves in "Wolf's Honour" are hilarious). Night Haunter was a murdering maniac of the highest order. So on, and so forth. I mean, we talk about the hints that El'Jonson didn't care for his men or the Calibanite humans, but even the noblest of the Primarchs--Sanguinius--had no qualms about resigning the people who worshipped him as a god on a radioactive wasteland of a world. I mean, if you were Baal Secundus and didn't become an Astartes, you were guaranteed a short life of violence, pain, and sickness. But El'Jonson is the mustache-twirling villain? For shame! :)

[ForTheLion]

Well said Phoebus! But comparing Lion to the wolf is like comparing Black to White :P Both were know for their Animalistics but think bout it:

 

Wolf: Ice Planet, Vikings, Lonely Animal that hunts in packs!

Lion: Forest covered Planet, Knights, King of all animals, Lonely animal

 

I mean u can see the connections!