Fallen Angels

[Brother-Kezek]

Well said Phoebus! But comparing Lion to the wolf is like comparing Black to White :RTBBB: Both were know for their Animalistics but think bout it:

 

Wolf: Ice Planet, Vikings, Lonely Animal that hunts in packs!

Lion: Forest covered Planet, Knights, King of all animals, Lonely animal

 

I mean u can see the connections!

I think its a good comparison. :( What if the rivalry really started like this

 

Lion: Hey Russ, You grew up in the wilds just like me right?

Russ: yeah

Lion: You have unquestioned loyalty from your marines,

while mine just stare at me funny. Why is that?

Russ: Because I'm the man, and you suck.

Lion: Damn you Russ!!!! :P

[Inquisitor Engel]

I just finished it and thought it was MUCH better than Descent of Angels, a great improvement on Mike Lee's part.

 

Here's a mind-bender for you - What if Jonson had been raised by the Knights of Lupus? :P

[Arioch]

Raised by the knigths of Lupus? Hmm that would really turn the story upside down! But I guess we can expect the unexpected in the next book. Looking foreward to see some secrets revealed and learn about Cyphers motives (if they are ever to be revealed). This is probably a spoiler, but I think Luther is going to bind the great deamon (Oroborous I think it was called) to his body, thus gaining immense powers, like the psychic powers he uses to knock out the Lion with. He will do this, because this is the only way that Caliban will be able to obtain liberty from the imperium. The people of Calibans need for freedom will drive them rigth into the arms of chaos!

 

Another funny thing: The deamon that is trapped in the core of Caliban, I believe, is still trapped, because Luther is still alive- and he is trapped in the middle of The Rock! The Dark Angels have always been cursed with a tainted heart.

 

But this is only some basic things that I believe is going to happend, and there are certainly a couple of surprises on the way.

[solid snake drive]

He takes a very small, elite force to capture and hold the Seige engines from Horus' forces, and he does just that, defeating a rogue Adeptus Mechanicus army to boot. He then hands them over to the representative of Dorn's forces headed to Istvaan.

 

I thought he gave the siege guns to Perturabo, not Dorn...

[Terrahawk]

He takes a very small, elite force to capture and hold the Seige engines from Horus' forces, and he does just that, defeating a rogue Adeptus Mechanicus army to boot. He then hands them over to the representative of Dorn's forces headed to Istvaan.

 

I thought he gave the siege guns to Perturabo, not Dorn...

 

I think what he means is that during that period of time Dorn was in charge of the Loyalist Legions and Perturabo's treachery is yet to be revealed. Therefore Perturabo is Dorn's representative.

[Brother Masariel]

Jonson proves a master strategist but lacking skills dealing with people So he's a genius but doesn't know how to judge people's charcters. Obviously a flaw, but every Primarch has a flaw.

 

that's it..someone else would have probably thought of the chance his grim brother perturabo could have been tricky...

someone else wouldn't have played humble to rise to warmaster honours..

[Arioch]

Not quit sure I understand the comment above...are yo being sarcastic or..?

 

But I think theres one explanation to why the Spacewolfs are so loyal and happy for their primarch: ALE!!!

[Phoebus]

Why would anyone else think Perturabo was being tricky? The book's account about the Lion starts with him telling his subordinates they've received word from Terra that Ferrus Manus and six other Primarchs are heading to give Horus the beat-down.

 

Wouldn't it be kind of random for the Lion to tell a Primarch whom Dorn had sent as part of that force to blow smoke?

"Sorry Perturabo... I don't quite trust you. I'd appreciate it if you left, and... told... hmmm... VULKAN that I have something I need to give him. No, no, I can't tell you what. Kindly leave now." :D

[traitor_dice]

ok, now, i have only read Descent Of Angels, so don't be to harsh on this.

 

What if the lion knew there was something weird going on with caliban (after reading the books from the knights lupus) but the knights didnt have a very good concept of exactly what chaos is? so then he later realises after sarosh. he then sends Zahariel back to caliban (because he thinks Zahariel is tainted, seeing as caliban had such a low amount of psykers to begin with, he may assume all calbanite psykers to be tainted, or perhaps just Zahariel as he had the encounter with the watchers, killed the Calibanite lion or whatever, useing wraithsight (or some similarly named phsycic thingy))

 

not sure why he sends luther tbh.

 

and Cypher never left Caliban because the lion knew he was one of the few who would/could reveal information to the wrong people.

 

Cypher educates Luther about the Calbanite daemon, and chaos, useing Luther's jealousy and feelings of abandonment to turn him agaisnt the lion, which would work quite well if he didn't know why he was there (assuming the lion did intend on him saveing the planet.)

 

when Zahariel finds out about Luther sideing with chaos, he's against it. so, it ironically turns out that the supposedly tainted psyker is the loyalist.

 

the lion meanwhile may have been counting on the terrans to do exactly what he thought they would (destroy caliban) to defeat the daemon. as he may not have had a very good kowledge of how else to deal with it, he may have thought it would work, also provideing a neat way to get rid of Zahariel and Cypher (the only 2 who may have caused problems.)

(again, cant find a reason for luther being there)

 

he sends them with the other 500 marines because, frankly, sending 2 specific marines back to caliban alone, for no particular reason would seem odd. he sends Calibanites as he figures they too may be tainted, thus, in his mind possibly killing 2 birds with one stone.

 

 

might not be a very well-put-together theory, but i think it has some interesting ideas that may not have been considered.

what do you think?

 

also, anyone else notice the irony of the names "knights lupus" and spacewolves?

[cheeseychaoslord]

why are all the spoilers blacked out!!!!!????? :lol:

[Beef]

Well said Phoebus! But comparing Lion to the wolf is like comparing Black to White <_< Both were know for their Animalistics but think bout it:

 

Wolf: Ice Planet, Vikings, Lonely Animal that hunts in packs!

Lion: Forest covered Planet, Knights, King of all animals, Lonely animal

 

I mean u can see the connections!

 

 

Ok correct that description of Russ. Loneley animal that hunts in packs is a contradiction, Wolves are very social, Just like Russ, they are loyal just like russ.

 

The Lion was not actiually like a lion in the same sence as Russ being wolf like.

 

Russ was raised by wolves and hell his marines turn into werewolves.

 

The Lions men share no similarity with lions and nor does the lion. He is only a lion in name NOT in nature, in fact his name only meens Lion, son of the forest.

[Terrahawk]

The Lions men share no similarity with lions and nor does the lion. He is only a lion in name NOT in nature, in fact his name only meens Lion, son of the forest.

 

I disagree. I think the Lion and the Dark Angels have many similarities if you compare them to the lion we know. The Dark Angels are known to be a very proud Chapter and possess a very second-to-none attitude. Self-righteous one might even say. These kind of things really reek lion to me. Sure it is not their defining characteristic, but it's definitely there.

[Tyear]

Just finished Fallen Angels.. hot DAMN!

 

That was a proper good read, seemed Mike pulled through on this one, though was a bit surprised with the reason for Luther's betrayal.. though I can certainly see it from his standpoint, though I'm still wondering. What was Cypher's reasoning behind it all, he must have known what he was doing and was he working WITH the Lion to have Caliban defect from the Imperium or was it just the way it panned out?

[Phoebus]

traitor_dice,

 

I think that once he discovered the library of the Knights of Lupus, the Lion's eyes were opened to things he had never considered before. Thus, when the knight who became Cypher arrived, he was the natural candidate to inform the Lion on these matters without knowledge of the library and the beasts' origins becoming public knowledge. For the same reason, I don't think the Lion wanted him leaving Caliban.

 

When the Emperor arrived, though, all this stuff was made really unimportant. All of a sudden, the Galaxy was in play. Additionally, the Lion's indoctrination would eventually (especially after Sarosh) have included some info about the Warp, which probably would have answered many of his questions about Caliban's beasts. Those would be answers that Luther would not have had access to, though.

 

I believe Cypher was simply trying to do the right thing, but dangerously. The Lion being absent, and the Warp being resurgent on Caliban, Cypher--with only a limited toolset (the library)--turned to the only man great enough to possibly tackle this threat: Luther. I don't think he was trying to corrupt the "Master of Caliban"; I think he was trying to empower him in order to defeat a dangerous evil.

 

I think Luther is a victim of circumstances, and a tragic figure insofar that he certainly regretted almost letting the Lion get killed (before he became corrupted, that is). I don't think Zahariel was sent to somehow deal with Caliban's problems; Cypher was the one with that knowledge. I think he was sent back because the Lion didn't feel he could trust him anymore.

 

I don't think the Lion intended for Luther to be corrupted. I think he only wanted to punish him.

[traitor_dice]

ah, i see.

 

so Cypher's idea was that luther could use the library to help save caliban, but the problem was that it could very easily be used for the opposite reasons. it was a gamble, and cypher lost.

[Tyear]

Or Cypher was already corrupted, based on the Lion's rather poor judgment skill of people and perhaps the charismatic 'Cypher' was good at persuading him, the same as Luther was. Now, if were following this line of questioning, Cypher is appointed by the Lion to fill the role, he does this admirably, but knows full well he needs someone stronger to corrupt then Remiel, who for all acounts is just a human, a rather long-lived human but a human none the less. So he decides to go for Luther when he returns to Caliban, slowly the taint begins to flower, perhaps by Cypher's involvement with the Terran sorcerers or perhaps because of the Terran sorcerers themselves.

 

Whatever the case, Cypher's corruption is slow to begin, but he sees in Luther a shock of faith, which he capitalizes on, no doubt knowing of the books taken from the Knights of Lupus he tricks Luther into believing the books hold the keys to Caliban's future and it's rise to power, but leaving out the hidden danger of tampering with the forces of Chaos, completely dead-set on the idea that Caliban will be destroyed once the Imperium finds out what is going on he takes matters into his own hands, using the Dark Angels, loyal to Luther far more then they are to the Imperium or the Lion, on Caliban he kills the Administratum and retakes the planet for the people of Caliban.

 

Using Zaheriel as a tool, he goes beneath the surface of Caliban in search of the taint made manifest, finds it but is unable to bind it too his will. No doubt when Zaheriel falls then and there Cypher is quick to take up the mantle of counselor once again, urging Luther to preform the ritual again, for they need to control the taint of Caliban, if they can they control a powerful warp entity, more then capable of keeping their planet safe.

 

This is.. if Cypher is corrupt and an agent for Chaos.

 

Ideas?

[Phoebus]

Tyear, that is a very logical argument you put forward. The only problem with it, though, is that it doesn't reconcile with what (little, admittedly) we know about Cypher. Fact of the matter is, Cypher seems to hinder the agents of Chaos (such as Abaddon) he is ostensibly supposed to be aiding. Those Fallen who do side with him don't display the same characteristics as Fallen who are true Chaos Space Marines.

 

I suppose there's always the possibility that Cypher was corrupted and subsequently found the will to try to redeem himself... but I find it more likely that he simply realized that he goofed and is seeking to make amends.

 

But of course, I could be terribly wrong! :D

[Abaddon127]

I myself believe that Cypher is seeking absolution from the Emperor for the actions of his legion.

[Tyear]

True, but what if it's a simple ploy by Cypher, think about it, he's always at the forefront of every great war, not aiding but not really disabling any plans that the great enemy might have in place, which in the Imperium's eyes might make him something of a renegade fighting for the Imperium, but they don't acknowledge him, and an 'enemy' to Chaos.

 

This would lead Cypher into the box of 'agent of Chaos' which I do believe he is, what if he is simply also a type of 'Everchosen' of Chaos, or the creature buried beneath Caliban is working as Cypher, perhaps having taken him over? That would normally lead him to combat Chaos, in a small way, just enough to get that ambiguity mark placed on him. Now, thankfully for the Imperium they aren't like, "Oh hey bud!", to Cypher, instead they treat him just well enough to keep him at arms length, but allow him to 'help' them whenever he can. Perhaps the being that Cypher is, this is all conjecture, belongs to Caliban, the Lion Sword, which he carries, or supposedly carries, is also a blade tainted by the evil of Caliban and perhaps that pure shining beacon of Chaos, is what is needed to kill the Emperor. Which would tie in relatively well with the whole "Cypher Uses Lion Sword on Emperor, Emperor Dies", but instead of being reborn as the Starchild, (Retcon ahoy), he instead just 'dies' his light is snuffed out and the Emperor of Mankind bites the dust, with it the rest of the Imperium. Cypher shows his true colors by reopening the gate beneath the Imperial Palace, which when the Emp dies, will happen, thus bringing an end to Terra, the Astronomican and all the rest of those goodies.

 

*Grins* I think WAY too much about the Warhammer backstory.

[Phoebus]

Eh, you have my thoughts on the matter. I just think it's a bit of a stretch for Cypher to be this redeeming figure and simultaneously an agent of Chaos.

 

I mean, one could just as easily posit that, given the "end times" fluff being pushed, Cypher's going to make it to Terra just as the forces of evil do. He's not there so much to awaken the Emperor, as he is to board the Rock, which will have arrived to aid the defense of Terra (they made it on time, this time!). The Lion Sword is the key to reaching the Lion himself in his hidden chamber. He awakens the Primarch (somehow), who in turn is able to awaken the Emperor (somehow).

 

But that's all conjecture, of course--it's something I came up with just now.

 

Agree to disagree, I guess! :)

[PhantomX]

I have been a lurker here for a long time and finally decided to join.

 

Each of the primarchs correspond to a MBTI (Meyer-Briggs) Type.

 

The Dark Angels Primarch is clearly a INTJ, as I am in real life.

If you are interested in the psychology of why the Lion chose to keep things "secret" then I recommend reading up on the INTJ type.

 

The primary thing about a INTJ that no one gets, is that we are not being secretive or aloof. We legitimately think everyone is as good at seeing the big picture as we are, and we don't feel the need to explain our motives to people.

 

INTJ- Mastermind (Ultimate Strategist)

We really do treat life and people like pieces of a chess game. We intuitively understand what natural abilities people excel at, and we position ourselves, and people in a manner that fits our internal vision. We have the ability to see far into the future, in fact our world view is "future tense". We often miss things happening right under our noses, because we are always actively working towards that future goal. In the Lion's future, he saw himself as the Warmaster, everything he did was moving towards that goal.

 

He did send Johnson back to the homeworld because he knew he could do a good job with the job he was given. I do not however believe that the Lion understood the full implications of the taint, an INTJ would recognize it as a future hindrance, and therefore actively try to remove that obstacle.

 

INTJs are also the ultimate "problem solvers'. We see problems within the machinations of our plan that others never see coming. I fully believe the Lion would have attempted to fix the whole chaos taint problem. IF he truly believed Johnson and crew would be the ones to fix the problem, he would not have waited for the problem to reveal itself. He would have told them the problem, and what he wanted done about it. He would then allow Johnson to go about fixing the problem using his own tactics.

 

 

The most damaging flaw of the INTJ is that we have no ability to read people in terms of emotion. We assume that because we have such a detached logical view of the world, that everyone else can make detached descisions as well. Many a INTJ has been completely caught off guard when a personal relationship blows up in their faces, because we thought all along that everything was ok.

We miss even OBVIOUS signs, and only recognize them in hindsight.

 

The Lion recognized the obvious signs in hindsight, and might I add. I little too late.

[Arioch]

Ehh I think you made a mistake. The Lion and Johnson are the same person, he is called Lion El Johnson. The other dude is called Luther.

But your theory could be rigth...perhabs. We shall see!

You may be on to something about The Lion sending Luther into a danger he did not realise was there.

[Wayward]

I`ll add a tiny bit after reading most of this topic:

 

 

I dont think Cypher's flipping sides in the middle of the game. Remember that Zahariel breaks into the master of Calibans chamber and FORCES Cypher to take him where Luther is. Maybe Cypher was doing allright so far, and Luther has yet more things to learn before confronting the warp entity, let alone the fact Zahariel realices too late, that the terran cultist intentions were to cast the entity already at the heart of Caliban back into the warp, not drag something from the warp into Caliban, maybe Luther wasmeant to do something else. As I see it, the trigger of all this mess is Zahariel, not that this matters much in the end. Im pretty sure a third book will come, maybe as a series of Heresy epilogues? Im sure we will be seeing more titles coming out after the final battle between Horus and the Emperor is told... There we may see the whole thing develop a tad further.