Prot Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 Well I guess we have to just agree to disagree guys. How 'Chaosy' of us. I see no better right now in the fictional world presented to us by Black Library. "A large scale victory"? In GW history, this isn't allowed. So no dice. An snowball's chance in hell. As I said, probably our biggest moment was the Eye of Terror campaign. Please tell me some of you were at least doing the chaos thing back then. Chaos has NO large scale victories which is exactly the very point I am trying to make. Getting shut down at the corpse god's cradle was the last of it.... and that's going way back. I think Huron is what you want to limit him to in your own minds. The story I'm talking about is specifically what I'm referencing here. So those of you talking about 'small' warbands can't possibly have read the same story I'm talking about.... if you have, re-read it... you missed a lot. I'm talking purely of this story, so let me try to re-focus this on my original post: I think the short story in Heroes of the Space Marines would be a great launching point for a 'grander' story featuring Huron. The bottom line is I'd be fine with that. There's nothing else going on for Chaos except for Honsou, and I've already stated my opinion of him. (Sorry to offend anyone.... Graham McNeil included) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 To me Huron is common chaos lord. Many of them have better guns, more charisma, better leadership and more brilliant plan. Many of them successfuly corrupt imperial astartes. Huron is just the one described in the codex. Nothing else. What great deeds he performed ? Huron lacks experience, and is young. It's mid-tier lord. It amuse me that such lowly creature take so much attention. Perhaps it's one of the codex writter favourite chapter that idealy could be described as 'bland renegade' [to create codex: chaos renegades]. I wouldn't say he's that low. The recent emphasis on the Red Corsairs have definately brought him up a few pegs. 1) He's defeated a Space Wolf Fleet and stolen a warship from them. 2) He's launched an assault on the White Scars homeworld. 3) He's worked alongside the Night Lords to steal a Chapter's worth of Geneseeds among other material. And those are all post-Babad war. No he doesn't compare to the big A, but he shouldn't. Abaddon is the closest thing that Chaos has to a single leader (for good or bad) but Huron is definately a hot up and comer. The bigger question I have, is why the hell are the Daemon Primarchs being so damn lazy!? :) You're a dark demi-god, get off your butt and go kill something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 True. If Chaos wants their Champion to score a bigger victory during the BC's... they really should 'motivate' the Primarchs at joining in for the fun. Chaos works in mysterious ways. a.k.a. Let's not wreck the setting TOO much. (by WH40K standards) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 What I am saying, though, is that the way he was depicted in this story was so in-your-face-godlike that I wonder how Mr. McNeill would portray people people like the primarchs. He had a crack at portraying the Emperor during Horus' coma-visions on Davin in False Gods. Huron lacks experience, and is young. It's mid-tier lord. It amuse me that such lowly creature take so much attention. More to the point, if Huron is so special, why hasn't Abaddon come along and smacked this upstart back into line? Very well said. I agree. The Despoiler, Typhus, Fabius, the Daemon Primarchs, Khârn, and so on, all simply sit within the Eye of Terror biding their time. And I happen to find it quite disappointing. They promise a "never ending Black Crusade", but when will they make good on that? When will the traitor Legions and Daemon Primarchs truly commit themselves to conquering the diseased and sickly Imperium? Considering how well the Imperial Forces are selling, I can tell you, not any time soon. Well, Angron's been making good on that promise (minus that little blip at Armageddon). Magnus is no doubt engaged in some monstrous manipulations, which don't require him to leave the planet. And there are still plenty of Legion warbands running around. Delegating responsibility isn't the same as inactivity. All Chaos players know that we (chaos) are basically a footnote in all the 'hero' tales from the Imperium side of the story. Personally, I'm sick of it. . . . That was a big moment for us. For once Chaos looked to be a real threat. Abe had summoned the legions... and we came. He promised great prizes, and much slaughter. A chance to take it right back to the Imperium. It could be worse. Your codex could admit that you're not the all-conquering invincible superpower that you make yourself out to be. True, you never seem to do much, but at least you aren't always doomed without a hope of survival. In terms of galactic survival, life is good for you. I have half a mind to start submitting to Black Library myself... partially out of desperation. Most of the legions (chaos) are depicted terribly, and inaccurately. How many stories have we read where Death Guard are basically inter-galactic space zombies? Or World Eaters are portrayed as simpleton cage fighters? I feel your pain. Something similar happens to the Inquisition, and it's now spawned this urban myth that they're nothing but sadistic Space Gestapo Dark Eldar-wannabes who spend their time torturing people and destroying planetary populations at weekends. I'm kind of sick of it too - I keep coming across stories where they're either the butt of all the jokes or are the real 'bad guys' (from an Imperial perspective) who are on a mission to stop the Space Marines (who've lost all sense of grimdark) from saving the universe and introducing social reforms aimed at rehabilitating those chaos-tainted mutants. Perhaps we should club together to make sure that every faction in the 40k universe other than the loyalist Space Marines is portrayed decently and/or correctly? It's not just a problem Chaos has, but you suffer far more from it since you appear in more novels. It is recorded many times that when the Imperium is attacked, they are continually surprised the number of 'Index Astartes' they are fighting off.... specifically those thought to be loyal. How many Loyalist Chapters are thought to be disloyal? <_< We're not asking for that. We're asking for the seeming new poster-boy for Chaos to have done something more than rebel and launch a few small-scale raids here and there. The trouble is, he'll outshine Abaddon. And that should logically provoke Abaddon into taking the Talon of Horus to Huron's nether regions in order to get him back into line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahveel Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 For those of you wanting Chaos to construct some sort of "death star" that's going to warp on over to mighty Terra and Zap it into oblivion... give it up. It isn't going to happen. Never. what about the planet killer? that blows planets up nicely :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 For those of you wanting Chaos to construct some sort of "death star" that's going to warp on over to mighty Terra and Zap it into oblivion... give it up. It isn't going to happen. Never. what about the planet killer? that blows planets up nicely :) sweet baby jesus. I forgot about that one... I have one of those too! (BFG). Sweet... let's go get Terra! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I've said this twice on the forum, and everyone says it too. In the Grim and Dark future of the 41st millennium, there is NO PLOT ADVANCEMENT. I mean, we're compared to minor raiders, where as the Tyranids are destroying scores of worlds and the orks are an unstoppable sleeping giant, and the Necrons are just waiting to be awakened to kill everything. Chaos in 40k is worse than it is in WHFB, while I don't play I keep hearing how Chaos managed to carve a bloody swathe into the Empire and other areas, and was only defeated because the orks intervened, in which the orks got butchered by said Empire. Really, Plot advancement is stale, it might keep people playing but it takes it's toll on people and each update the plot is refined so badly that it squeezes us out of it. Edit: Mortrarion sits on his Plague World, if you want to say he's in charge of plague ship replenishment then sure, he's still not making that much more of a significant contribution to any unified Chaos assault. (which is to say, not happening because of no plot movement). Angron got beaten on Armageddon and is regenerating, he has a reason to be off the chart temporarily. Fulgrim, Purturabo, and Lorgar sit on their asses and do nothing. I love the Chaos Legions and I'm pissed as the next brother about our fluff reduction, as well as Legion's :cussty re-fluffing of the Alpha Legion. I'm not saying the Legions sit on their asses, they dominate when they attack, but their DPrimarchs are nothing more than fluff to be used in arguments about who is better. My favorite Traitor Legion is the Iron Warriors followed closely by the Night Lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Well to be honest, the Emperors Children never wanted to be a threat to the Imperium. They wanted perfection, and now some have lost interest in what the material realm can bring them. However, I don't accept the "no plot advancement" as a reason for not having the Chaos Marines as a serious threat. Why not just have Huron like Abaddon, currently launching his massive offensive that we'll never see the end of? State that Huron's empire is continually expanding, fuelled by ever-increasing numbers of renegades flocking to his banner, and he's a serious threat. No plot advancement required to do that. Well, other than stating this new fact, but you get my point. He doesn't need to go destroy a large chunk of the Imperium, just have that he's on the verge of doing so. At the moment he just commits petty raids on passing supply convoys, depriving Imperial Worlds of small amounts of food and general supplies. :o I've just discovered Huron's plan to destroy the Imperium! Keep capturing those supply convoys, so Imperial Worlds won't be able to get enough tooth-paste, and wait till infection kills off the Imperium! It's a foolproof plan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 It's not fullproof, but it's higly effective, problem is he needs to do it on a MASSIVE SCALE. The lack of plot advancement is what's keeping Huron from upping up from Petty raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Why not just have Huron like Abaddon, currently launching his massive offensive that we'll never see the end of? There can only be one favourite of the Gods, any more than that and they'll scrap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I meant as in "serious threat, comprised of renegade Marines". We can keep them seperate by having Huron merely be a Renegade, not a full-blown Chaos Marine/Chosen-Of-The-Gods. He could never take Abaddon's place, but just as Abaddon is the figurehead of the Legionnaires, Huron can be the figurehead of the Renegade-but-not-necessarily-Chaos Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 The difference between a Renegade and a Legionnary can be awfully 'grey' though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 The difference between a Renegade and a Legionnary can be awfully 'grey' though. Not really... "Did you fight in the Horus Heresy/recruit into a Chaos warband that fought then? If the answer is yes, you're a Legionnaire. If not, you're a renegade." Basically, Huron is the leaders of the guys who belonged to Chapters. If a Marine never fought in a Chapter, they'll most likely be with Abaddon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 For those of you wanting Chaos to construct some sort of "death star" that's going to warp on over to mighty Terra and Zap it into oblivion... give it up. It isn't going to happen. Never. what about the planet killer? that blows planets up nicely B) sweet baby jesus. I forgot about that one... I have one of those too! (BFG). Sweet... let's go get Terra! ;) I thought it done got blowded up :huh: Seriously though, wasn't it attacked by constant torpedo fire for something like 2 weeks straight? (might be a minor exaggeration there ^_^ ) EDIT: Changed language to be more friendly ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Yeah, it was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 The difference between a Renegade and a Legionnary can be awfully 'grey' though. Not really... "Did you fight in the Horus Heresy/recruit into a Chaos warband that fought then? If the answer is yes, you're a Legionnaire. If not, you're a renegade." Basically, Huron is the leaders of the guys who belonged to Chapters. If a Marine never fought in a Chapter, they'll most likely be with Abaddon. Not persay warbands can get absorbed into a legion. But i'm nitpicking a bit here B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I've said this twice on the forum, and everyone says it too. In the Grim and Dark future of the 41st millennium, there is NO PLOT ADVANCEMENT. I mean, we're compared to minor raiders, where as the Tyranids are destroying scores of worlds and the orks are an unstoppable sleeping giant, and the Necrons are just waiting to be awakened to kill everything. Chaos in 40k is worse than it is in WHFB, while I don't play I keep hearing how Chaos managed to carve a bloody swathe into the Empire and other areas, and was only defeated because the orks intervened, in which the orks got butchered by said Empire. Really, Plot advancement is stale, it might keep people playing but it takes it's toll on people and each update the plot is refined so badly that it squeezes us out of it. Edit: Mortrarion sits on his Plague World, if you want to say he's in charge of plague ship replenishment then sure, he's still not making that much more of a significant contribution to any unified Chaos assault. (which is to say, not happening because of no plot movement). Angron got beaten on Armageddon and is regenerating, he has a reason to be off the chart temporarily. Fulgrim, Purturabo, and Lorgar sit on their asses and do nothing. I love the Chaos Legions and I'm pissed as the next brother about our fluff reduction, as well as Legion's :cussty re-fluffing of the Alpha Legion. I'm not saying the Legions sit on their asses, they dominate when they attack, but their DPrimarchs are nothing more than fluff to be used in arguments about who is better. My favorite Traitor Legion is the Iron Warriors followed closely by the Night Lords. Actually Lorgar is quite busy A; writing down everything the Gods tell him, which is alot, and with that comes the trouble of translating it and making sense of everything. and B; sending said orders along to the rest of his Legion and get it to do what the Gods want. So instead of blaming Lorgar for not leaving the planet, blame the Gods :) Also Fulgrim is what shall we say, rather "split" in his way of thinking so he's absence can easily be understood :) Perturabo on he other hand. Not so much, not so much. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 Well not to get too far off topic, but I don't really see Huron's uprising as a 'problem' for Abaddon. I actually believe that like the chaos gods themselves, they will find ways to co-exist for mutual benefit. This happens in history all the time, it can certainly happen in 40K land. Abaddon IS the anti-marine. He should be doing more but I, like the rest of you, blame GW/Black Library for preventing Chaos from taking the true throne as THE menace to the imperium (or life in general in 40K lore). Huron I see as the Gen X'r of Chaos Marines. He may not have been there during the Heresy, but he's been around long enough to remember skinny leather piano ties, Boy George, and acid wash jeans. It doesn't make Huron less of a threat just because he can't remember a time before Michael Jackson lit his hair on fire during the filming of a Pepsi commercial. In fact I think it is GOOD to inject new blood into chaos. Another way of conducting evil business. It doesn't invalidate Abe's work, it compliments it. SPOILER ALERT: In the short story that made me start this thread, Huron awards the winning combatant with fleets, and troops of various origins totaling 10,000 individuals. That's what Huron is willing to give up for his mere entertainment, and the entertainment of the gods. I have a feeling this is a launching point for Graham McNeil to set up a future Ultra-novel in which Warsmith Honsou attacks (without success of course) the mighty Ultramar. But I think the story could also be a great launching point for a storied Chaos career for Huron. P.S. Yea... I forgot about the Planet-killer getting ro-sham-bo'd in the jewels. BUT let's not forget.... Darth Vader did build another death star! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I thought it done got blowded up ;) Seriously though, wasn't it beat by constant torpedo fire for something like 2 weeks straight? (might be a minor exaggeration there ;) ) Not quite sure about your choice of verbs, but anyway. It wasn't ever confirmed to be destroyed. During the destruction of Macharia, it was boarded by (I think) an Ultramarines Honour Company. They didn't manage to stop it firing, but did damage its shields. As a result, bits of Macharia struck the Planet Killer and it was last seen tumbling away into wilderness space, critically damaged. This was during the 13th Black Crusade, well after it was said to have been destroyed by torpedoes during the Gothic War (as you referenced). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I thought it done got blowded up :D Seriously though, wasn't it beat by constant torpedo fire for something like 2 weeks straight? (might be a minor exaggeration there :) ) Not quite sure about your choice of verbs, but anyway. My apologizes, I'll clean it up. It wasn't ever confirmed to be destroyed. During the destruction of Macharia, it was boarded by (I think) an Ultramarines Honour Company. They didn't manage to stop it firing, but did damage its shields. As a result, bits of Macharia struck the Planet Killer and it was last seen tumbling away into wilderness space, critically damaged. This was during the 13th Black Crusade, well after it was said to have been destroyed by torpedoes during the Gothic War (as you referenced). This is new to me, interesting, though I wouldn't be surprised that Abaddon's flagship would make a comeback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Abaddon IS the anti-marine. He should be doing more but I, like the rest of you, blame GW/Black Library for preventing Chaos from taking the true throne as THE menace to the imperium (or life in general in 40K lore). I don't think that the amount of published stories reflects the actual activity of a character or faction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Abaddon IS the anti-marine. He should be doing more but I, like the rest of you, blame GW/Black Library for preventing Chaos from taking the true throne as THE menace to the imperium (or life in general in 40K lore). I don't think that the amount of published stories reflects the actual activity of a character or faction. But it is, GW doesn't write enough fluff and they host an extremely low amount of timeline changing tournaments. edit: part of response removed do to unseen factors such as mudkips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 By that logic the Ultramarines would be a common fighting force of the Imperium, whereas any random chapter that has only been mentioned by name so far has been doing nothing since their founding. Also, EoT hasn't been retconned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 This was during the 13th Black Crusade, well after it was said to have been destroyed by torpedoes during the Gothic War (as you referenced). Is that is in the torpedoing happening after the hit by parts of Macharia, or parts of Macharia hitting it after the supposed torpedoing to death? Asking since the Gothic War was the 11'th or 12'th Black Crusade and as such the 13'th Black Crusade logically must have happened afterward. ;) TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Is that is in the torpedoing happening after the hit by parts of Macharia, or parts of Macharia hitting it after the supposed torpedoing to death? Torpedoeing happens at the end of the Gothic War, the destruction of Macharia takes place in the 13th Black Crusade. Figure that one out. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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