Complaining about the C:CSM

[Brother Hadafix]

As an ex Chaos player, and a sometimes participant to this forum, I was wondering how many Chaos players have written to GW to complain as what the responses were.

 

Also if the majority are up for it, how about a mass letter campaign to not only try and get them to fix it asap, but also to bring it back to something that is fun to play and fits years of beloved fluff?

 

Now I am not an expert letter writer, so if anyone has an idea of a well formulated letter that get the point across with out being hostile, then please write it up so that we can all use it. After all if enough people say the samething they will get tired of hearing it.

 

If no one manages this, I will try and have something up by the end of the month and those that wish to be envolved I would ask that if you send a letter that you give the response, if any.

 

Well who is up for this?

[TostitoBandito]

I'd be willing to help and offer input. You can find my complaints in the vet skill thread.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Also if the majority are up for it, how about a mass letter campaign to not only try and get them to fix it asap, but also to bring it back to something that is fun to play and fits years of beloved fluff?

 

Why not just run a Despair from the Rock-style thread, let it run for a bit, and then mail them a printout of that?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

This sort of thing has been talked about before but not done to my knowledge. Check out the thread Is Chaos Scary Enough a bit lower down this page. EDIT: Looks like its on the next page back now.

[the jeske]

there were letters send etc in 4th ed when most people were leaving chaos . all we got was "we didnt knew people would play with 2 DPs" and "we know that this chaos isnt the best to represent legions ". with GW policy of now faq , no errata I doubt a letter would change anything specially as most of chaos players never saw the old dex.

[Raven Angel]

Maybe, maybe not. Even as a SM player I was horrorfied at what they did to the Chaos codex. It's to put it planly the worst work I have ever seen come out of GW and I've read and own alot of the old old stuff. It doesn't even do a good job representing most of the older renagade chapters much less the legions. It's like codex Red Corsairs not Codex Chaos SM. I been think about writing Jervis Johnson about it but need my older book and IA stuff in order to come up with some better ways of doing it. Along with the letter it might help to have some ways of fixing what they broke.

[eyescrossed]

I'd love for them to make Legion 'dexes, and bring back the old restrictions, even though it'd make my army illegal.

 

EDIT: And bring back WARGEAR! Please :)

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

This is a great idea. I've got quite a bit of official letter writing experience so would happily help but also a thread like mentioned above would help to go in with it.

 

I think in my post on "is chaos scary enough?", i did a thorough cross referencing the old codecies from '96 onwards as I have all of them. I totally agree that this is possibly the worst codex ever. Worse than the 3rd ed one... It's horrific. It's annoying, frustrating and stupid.

 

Jeske, I think the answers you received are just a compound issue we face. Why did they not think that if people CAN use two Daemon Prince's then why did they think that they wouldn't?! Dumb, pure dumb. I think Brother Hadafix is right that now we need to move it forward. If anyone is on any other forums, could they do the same there and post the links here?

[Brother Hadafix]

@ GMT: By everyone issuing a letter, it shows that the fan base is still unhappy and is prepared to lobby together. Lobbying is something that no company likes when it is negative towards them, though it is intended to get a positive response.

 

@ Jeske: I didnt know about that, but a new wave may nudge them to remember that long time platers still play the game and are hoping that next time they will release a decent codex.

 

@ CLS: Cheers, if you could think of a good template that could be shared on the tread that would be great. Remember that it cant be overly critical, GW have put out some good Chaos Codices in the past, and we would like them to go back to those rather than sounding liked we are jumping around yelling "not fair!"

 

@ Everyone I have not responded to: Thanks for supporting this idea, and I really hope that those on board will go the whole way and post the letters off. This is not intended as a place to air your dislike about the 4ed dex, I think it can be agreed by all that it is as bad as the DA codex and about as fluffy as a horse hair vest.

 

If those that support this would continue add what they would like to see requested in a letter, remembering that some where posted off before, this is an exercise in where we are now, and though a new C:CSM is likely to still be some time off, this one has been around long enough for people to have gotten used to, the fact that it is still not liked we can hope will have an effect on what it is like when it is redone.

 

If you guys know of other forums where they may already be doing this, try and contact those involved and we could try and act as one, Chaos Undecided group... :wacko:

[Dammeron]

When the original thread for lambasting the new codex was fixed, I posted an enormous page by page dissection of the new codex, pointing out exactly what was wrong with each one and the publication as a whole. This was mailed to GW along with a letter explaining my disgust (as a long time player of 40K) and detailing potential solutions. Thus far I haven't recieved an iota of feedback. However, I would gladly lend my contributions to a collective correspondence.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

I was thinking the same to be honest... make it more of a comparison of the previous codex showing what we preferred and what we feel this one is lacking rather than just going with "this current codex is bilge, write a new one bitches!".

 

As for the threat to be put on here... how does everyone feel for it to be something along the lines of players, not just those of CSMs, but possibly from every army (some other armies must feel fed up of playing against 2 lash princes, endless Oblits and little or no no dreadnaughts, bikers, raptors with no feel of fluff for each chapter and it is probably getting quite tedious) feeling that this codex is dull, one dimensional and in need of a spruce up.

 

The general consensus I have got is that codex 3.5 was fantastic. It had everything we could have wanted, it not only made the army as a race powerful and varied, but it kept a serious amount of fluff per legion/chapter that was immense. Using this current codex as a base for all newer renegade chapters would have been a better bet, in my opinion.

 

Having a chat in my local GW stores, the general opinion also is that the only thing missing, in 3.5 codex, for each of the Heresy chapters was special characters for each of the non-cultist/BL chapters, then making this Codex as one entitled "Codex Chaos Renegades", heading in with most of the background of the Red Corsairs, maybe some others mentioned in Black Legion books etc, and moving on to "how to make your own renegade chapter". Maybe this too is worth mentioning.

[incinerator950]

I was under the assumption GW was very good at ignoring good advice and ideas

[Brother Hadafix]

Former Chaos player and those that are fed up with be faced by the, is it 4, viable army lists should be able to join in, wether that means part of the letter needs deletable sections where necessary or 2/3 template need to be drawn up is something else to debate.

 

@ Dammeron: Lambasting criticism wont help, nor will it get a good reply, CLS is more on the ball. "make it more of a comparison of the previous codex showing what we preferred and what we feel this one is lacking rather than just going with "this current codex is bilge, write a new one bitches!"" and with enough people writing off, someone should get at least one response.

 

As an opening I was looking at something closer to this;

Dear Mr J Jonson,

 

After playing Chaos Space Marines for .... years I have found/I found that the 4th edition codex was lacking hugely compared to it predecessor and while being fine for building a Red Corsair or renegade Chapter, offered very little in the way of gaming. While I appreciate that GW is mainly a miniature manufacturing company, I have enjoyed the gaming aspects of it in the past and it has been that which has kept me buying GW merchandise.

 

Well thats sort of what I am aiming at, I know it needs a lot of work and if enough players back it maybe productive in ensuring a good codex next time round. Still needs more backers to make it worth while though, which is why I am giving this project a good month before doing anything.

 

I know that Refuse runs a site for EC only, anyone think he may back it and give it extra coverage and validity.

[Legatus]

As I have pointed out in the other Codex bashing thread, all these complaints about how terrible the new Codex is seem to come from a narrow perspective that only knows the previous and current Chaos Codex and is completely disregarding the overall 40K trend all the latest Codices have been following over the past few years to remove sub list options and instead incorporate the potential for different lists into one single army list, as well as disregarding the Chaos Codices prior to 3.5. Saying that the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos was better seems to come from nostalgic memories more than anything else, as that list pales in comparison to the options in the 4th Edition Codex, as well as having vastly inferior units.

 

When Codex Eldar had been redone, they lost the different Craftworld lists. But some choices have been changed (Jetbikes, Wraithguard) and some new choices have been added (Pathfinders, Seer Council), so now it is possible to buils all the Craftworld armies with the basic Eldar list.

 

Space Marines have lost the Chapter Trait system. Instead, now the list can slightly be changed depending on the Character leading the force. (This relies heavily in the uise of special characters and has been a terrible choice in my opinion.)

 

Imperial Guard has lost the Doctrine System, but now it is possible to use mechanised units, or veterans with carapace armoru or camo cloaks even in the basic list.

 

Chaos has lost the "give them a mark to make them something else" system as well as the "pump the character full of gear" options. Instead, now you can buy cult units that are very effective by default, and do not have to be made effective by equipping them.

 

Putting 100+ points of stuff on your lord to make him a deamon prince was fun, but it was also broken, and I don't mind that they changed that. There are three complaints I could understand: One is that the background of the Codex is not focused on the classic Legions enough. GW has tried a new direction with this Codex, and I personally do not care for renegade Chapters that much. But then I have 4 editions worth of Codices and Index Astartes articles to fall back on, so I can happily wait a few years for a possible 5th or 6th Edition Codex Chaos. The second complain I can understand is the lack of cult daemons. I think that is a shame and I would have liked to see cult daemons in the Codex, but I can sort of understad GW's decision to have the "Codex Chaos Space Marines" be more about Chaos Space Marines. The generic daemons have performed quite well for my Night Lords though. The third complaint I can understand is that the Icon effect is lost once the Icon Bearer is killed. It is frustrating when your unit loses the bonus because the Icon Bearer is killed, and gives a certain fragile feeling. But on the other hand, that's Chaos for you, and while the gods can smile on you at one moment, they might punish you the next.

 

Apart from those three points I quite like the Codex. I like the fact that even the basic Chaos Marine is armed to the teeth and very strong in combat. Having a boltgun and still 2 base attacks is simply awesome, nothing less. I like that Berserkers are now actually superior in combat, and not just lunatics with +1 attack and big axes. I like that plague Marines are hard as nails.

 

The Codex does not need to be "fixed". But perhaps the next FaQ could instate a 0-1 limitation for Daemon Princes. I would not mind that.

[Pigeons]

i'd rather see an errata than a full re-do. to be honest, i'm a few box sets away from having bought and assembled my very first army, so i'd be quite pissed off if they suddenly released a new codex and i had to go drop another 20 bucks on another book, and then re-work my entire army to fit the new codex...which would likely mean buying even more new models.

 

 

considering how ridiculous GW prices are i find it very odd that you're all so adamant about causing changes that would force you to spend even MORE money to GW.

 

 

i'd much prefer just an errata with some minor change such as:

 

 

-when squads lose their icon bearer, they DON'T lose the abilities of the icon

 

-making terminators fearless

 

-bringing REAL demons and greater demons back to the codex

 

-the ability to give chaos spawn marks

 

-bringing back vet skills, at least for certain units(like chosen, at the very least.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

it obviously wouldn't make the dex perfect, but it'd fix a lot of major gripes and save us all a ton of money on buying the new codex+new models.

 

 

 

my two cents.

 

 

 

 

edit: also i agree totally with the post above mine. GW is trending towards stream-lined, simpler codexes all across the board. it's easier to say "well chaos is better so it should be different", but GW isn't going to change their entire long-term business plan to satisfy users of a single army. for instance: i'm sure when a new tyranid codex comes out they're going to do away with the massive list of biomorphs, and instead give a small upgrade list that varies by unit, which is exactly what they did with chaos; eliminate the wargear section and instead only allow wargear options.

 

 

it's just a general trend towards more kid-friendly, easy to use codexes.

[Draeden]

One thing I noticed though in the codex which I'm going to start modeling down onto future units in my army, is that there is no restriction in regards to sticking the icon on the squad champion... that, even though it's poor, is some minor comfort compared to newer codices like the Guard where the banner has to go on a different unit to the pimped out commander.

[Pigeons]

One thing I noticed though in the codex which I'm going to start modeling down onto future units in my army, is that there is no restriction in regards to sticking the icon on the squad champion... that, even though it's poor, is some minor comfort compared to newer codices like the Guard where the banner has to go on a different unit to the pimped out commander.

 

 

 

yeah i always stick the icon on the aspiring champ.

 

 

it's got it's downsides though; by putting it on him, if he dies you don't just lose all his expensive special equipment, you lose the dang icon too, and the whole unit becomes less effective. haha

 

 

 

but oh well, i think it's worth the risk.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

When Codex Eldar had been redone, they lost the different Craftworld lists. But some choices have been changed (Jetbikes, Wraithguard) and some new choices have been added (Pathfinders, Seer Council), so now it is possible to buils all the Craftworld armies with the basic Eldar list.

 

Space Marines have lost the Chapter Trait system. Instead, now the list can slightly be changed depending on the Character leading the force. (This relies heavily in the uise of special characters and has been a terrible choice in my opinion.)

 

You've exposed the flaw in your argument there, namely that if you combine everything into the main list it should be done well (Eldar, Orks) or not at all (since you'll end up worse off than how you started). That's what happened to Chaos. To fix it, GW needs to retrace its steps and start again, which means C:CSM 3.5 is the start point. That's why they need to hark back to it, if they try to fix the Chaos Codex based on the current codex, they risk continuing in the same vein, since their work is essentially built on dodgy foundations. C:CSM 3.5 shouldn't be the Chaos codex of tomorrow, but if Chaos is to be fixed then GW has to treat the current Chaos Codex as if it was simply all a bad dream.

[refuse]

As I have pointed out in the other Codex bashing thread, all these complaints about how terrible the new Codex is seem to come from a narrow perspective that only knows the previous and current Chaos Codex and is completely disregarding the overall 40K trend all the latest Codices have been following over the past few years to remove sub list options and instead incorporate the potential for different lists into one single army list, as well as disregarding the Chaos Codices prior to 3.5. Saying that the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos was better seems to come from nostalgic memories more than anything else, as that list pales in comparison to the options in the 4th Edition Codex, as well as having vastly inferior units.

Here I totally disagree with you.

 

The logic that the pokemon version of chaos was teh path they were on has been proven false by the codecies printed after the Chaos codex. The ork codex, allowed units to change location within the task org, and was the first codex after the 2 chaos ones (daemons and renegades).

In addition, your definition of years is totally wrong. The 3.0 codex and the 4.0 codex are very much alike. I will give you that. But GW corrected this with the 3.5 codex knowing that the 3.0 pamphlet was an mistake, but did it again with the 4.0.

 

I disagree with the list paling in comparison. I am sorry, the ability to take units with marks (making them fearless throughout the whole game), or Sonic blasters all throughout the entire army, or daemons or Terminator armed squads or . . . There are dozens of lists that could be made before, that can't be made now.

 

Plague Wing, Lust Wing

Daemon Bombs and more all could be made prior to this codex. Total Slaanesh army lists, could be made.

 

But again, the going back to the 2nd edition style books (sorry, that is what they are doing) does not imply that the book is better. The "count as" mentality is false too.

 

When Codex Eldar had been redone, they lost the different Craftworld lists. But some choices have been changed (Jetbikes, Wraithguard) and some new choices have been added (Pathfinders, Seer Council), so now it is possible to buils all the Craftworld armies with the basic Eldar list.

And it is not possible to build all the cult armies with the chaos list.

 

Space Marines have lost the Chapter Trait system. Instead, now the list can slightly be changed depending on the Character leading the force. (This relies heavily in the uise of special characters and has been a terrible choice in my opinion.)

 

Imperial Guard has lost the Doctrine System, but now it is possible to use mechanised units, or veterans with carapace armoru or camo cloaks even in the basic list.

 

Chaos has lost the "give them a mark to make them something else" system as well as the "pump the character full of gear" options. Instead, now you can buy cult units that are very effective by default, and do not have to be made effective by equipping them.

And based on your examples, especially the IG, how is it removing?

The IG list previously had something much like this. The SM commander changes the army. The chaos army has neitehr of these options. Thus making Chaos the more rigid of armies (in that all lists must be the same, with no potential for units not to be in their normal slot).

 

So now you can buy cult armies, but you can't make a cult list. You can count as a cult list, but your "cult" elites may fall back to bog standard when the icon falls. :)

 

So, to your points you are trying to make the examples you give point out that the chaos list doesn't follow the 2nd (now 4th) methodology. Chaos can't modify the army by the HQ chosen, it can't choose characters that change the army. I can't build all of the "cult" armies that it use to be able to. Heck they didn't even give the Cult characters the ability to modify the army. So again, to your point, what GW was stating they were doing, and what they did in the chaos codex are opposite.

 

Putting 100+ points of stuff on your lord to make him a deamon prince was fun, but it was also broken, and I don't mind that they changed that.

Not sure hot it was broken. There were combos that were difficult (slaanesh). But are you saying there is nothing broken now? No abused lists?

 

There are three complaints I could understand: One is that the background of the Codex is not focused on the classic Legions enough. GW has tried a new direction with this Codex, and I personally do not care for renegade Chapters that much. But then I have 4 editions worth of Codices and Index Astartes articles to fall back on, so I can happily wait a few years for a possible 5th or 6th Edition Codex Chaos.

Ok, so we wait?

 

The second complain I can understand is the lack of cult daemons. I think that is a shame and I would have liked to see cult daemons in the Codex, but I can sort of understad GW's decision to have the "Codex Chaos Space Marines" be more about Chaos Space Marines. The generic daemons have performed quite well for my Night Lords though. The third complaint I can understand is that the Icon effect is lost once the Icon Bearer is killed. It is frustrating when your unit loses the bonus because the Icon Bearer is killed, and gives a certain fragile feeling. But on the other hand, that's Chaos for you, and while the gods can smile on you at one moment, they might punish you the next.

So marines who are maybe 100-200 years old can stay true to a doctrine (charge first), but chaos marines who are thousands of years old can't?

When a Marine commander says he will lead the army and they will do X, when he dies the army can still do it, when the icon hits the ground chaos can't?

 

GW's decision per the inside information was that C:Daemons was coming out and they didn't want to water it down by having marines capable of taking them. Please, the book is less about chaos marines (noise marines, plague marines) and more about renegades. The same as the 2nd edition codex. Heck it is the same book with a few more models thrown in. So much so they brought back Huron.

 

Apart from those three points I quite like the Codex. I like the fact that even the basic Chaos Marine is armed to the teeth and very strong in combat. Having a boltgun and still 2 base attacks is simply awesome, nothing less. I like that Berserkers are now actually superior in combat, and not just lunatics with +1 attack and big axes. I like that plague Marines are hard as nails.

But beserkers are more beserker then the elites of Khorne.

The book is Chaos Renegades (same as 2nd) not Chaos Space Marine (as you pointed out). The book is literally the 2nd edition book, pushed out in under 5 months.

 

The Codex does not need to be "fixed". But perhaps the next FaQ could instate a 0-1 limitation for Daemon Princes. I would not mind that.

Yeah, that is the problem. Not the cult nor spirit of Chaos.

Hmm.

[Brother Amarel]

The Codex does not need to be "fixed". But perhaps the next FaQ could instate a 0-1 limitation for Daemon Princes. I would not mind that.

Yeah, that is the problem. Not the cult nor spirit of Chaos.

Hmm.

You appear to have lost the rolling eyes smiley 'fuse, here let me help you out: :)

And I'll throw in this one for free: :P

[refuse]

i'd rather see an errata than a full re-do. to be honest, i'm a few box sets away from having bought and assembled my very first army, so i'd be quite pissed off if they suddenly released a new codex and i had to go drop another 20 bucks on another book, and then re-work my entire army to fit the new codex...which would likely mean buying even more new models.

Sorry that is funny.

Cause how many people had full cult armies and that is exactly what GW wanted.

 

Pigeons they want you to have to redo your army. They want you to have to rebuy everything to play. Or you can "count as". Please expand your thought to full armies and the changes.

 

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/wholearmy2.jpg

 

considering how ridiculous GW prices are i find it very odd that you're all so adamant about causing changes that would force you to spend even MORE money to GW.

Perhaps people that have played before want the previous armies to be useable again, or perhaps even not "count as".

 

it obviously wouldn't make the dex perfect, but it'd fix a lot of major gripes and save us all a ton of money on buying the new codex+new models.

To late for some. ; )

 

edit: also i agree totally with the post above mine. GW is trending towards stream-lined, simpler codexes all across the board. it's easier to say "well chaos is better so it should be different", but GW isn't going to change their entire long-term business plan to satisfy users of a single army. for instance: i'm sure when a new tyranid codex comes out they're going to do away with the massive list of biomorphs, and instead give a small upgrade list that varies by unit, which is exactly what they did with chaos; eliminate the wargear section and instead only allow wargear options.

 

 

it's just a general trend towards more kid-friendly, easy to use codexes.

GW isn't trending towards this.

That is the 3.0 -> 4.0 -> 5.0 perception of some that want to feel like they know what they are talking about. Read the 2nd edition codex, or to your point, read the 2nd edition Tyranid codex.

 

This entire style of book was used in 2nd. The method of wargear was used in 2nd. They aren't trending towards anything. They are going back to one designer's concept of how the game should work. The same designer that did 2nd. There isn't some benefit GW wants to do for the players! I would say RT era and 3rd were more player oriented then 2nd or 4th/5th.

 

The ability to tweak to your heart's content is a player desire, the limiting to specific gear so they don't have to work through all the possibilities, and have to do a decent job of balancing are in their favor. They didn't his going from RT (a true convoluted rules, but very customizeable) to 2nd edition. 3rd made some progress allowing armies to become personal, and 4th/5th is going back to 2nd.

 

They are not trending towards some lofty goal, except to sell more models. They are going back to what the designer feels the game should be. Cause he already wrote it, it was called 2nd.

 

So all the people say they are aiming towards more kid friendly. . . Read 2nd.

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...ison:ChaosCodex

[refuse]

The Codex does not need to be "fixed". But perhaps the next FaQ could instate a 0-1 limitation for Daemon Princes. I would not mind that.

Yeah, that is the problem. Not the cult nor spirit of Chaos.

Hmm.

You appear to have lost the rolling eyes smiley 'fuse, here let me help you out: :)

And I'll throw in this one for free: :P

LOl. :wub:

[Legatus]

The ork codex, allowed units to change location within the task org

I am not sure what you are aming at with that remark. As if changing army list entries would be important for interresting army options. Also, cult units are now simply troop choices, instead of having made a troop choice by a Character.

 

I disagree with the list paling in comparison. I am sorry, the ability to take units with marks (making them fearless throughout the whole game), or Sonic blasters all throughout the entire army, or daemons or Terminator armed squads or . . . There are dozens of lists that could be made before, that can't be made now.

I was refering to the 3rd Edition Codex, which had been refereed to as having been better than the 4th by some posters.

 

Plague Wing, Lust Wing

Daemon Bombs and more all could be made prior to this codex. Total Slaanesh army lists, could be made.

Erm, in the 3.5 Codex the number of Chosen (and thus Terminators) was limited to 10 per started 1000 points, so in your average 1,500 points game you would have been limited to 20 terminators, while in the 4th Edition Codex you can simply fill your three Elite Choices with 30 Terminator Squads. Total Slaanesh army lists are also still possible.

 

And it is not possible to build all the cult armies with the chaos list.

You can definitely play an all Berserker list, even though thet would not be very interresting. If you widen your choices to all "khorne" units, a World Eaters army will now actually have MORE unit choices than they did in the 3.5 Codex. You get Assault squqads at a decent price, instead of having to buy 40+ points chosen or Possessed, and you can now use the "Teeth of Khorne" by using Khorne Havocs.

 

And based on your examples, especially the IG, how is it removing?

This is what the new Codex does not have:

 

- All drop armies

- Iron Disciplin

- Close Order Drill

- All WS 4 units

- All Jungle Fighters

- All light infantry

- Sharpshooters

- Xeno Fighters

- All Chem Inhalers

- All Chameoline

- All Carapace armour

- Cyper enhancement

- All with CCW

 

But with the new Plattoon and Veteran options, a lot of lists can be built to be similar to the personalised doctrine list in the previous Codex. Just as the new Codex Eldar allows to build "Craftworld" lists with the basic army list, and how the Chaos icon system allows cult armies with the basic list.

 

The IG list previously had something much like this. The SM commander changes the army. The chaos army has neitehr of these options. Thus making Chaos the more rigid of armies (in that all lists must be the same, with no potential for units not to be in their normal slot).

Chaos has 5 very strong troop choices to build an army around, and the basic CSM unit can be upgraded with 5 powerfull stat increases, even if that can be lost later. I hope you are not trying to tell me that an all T4(5) force or an all A2 force is not a big thing.

 

You can lose that ability, sure, but that's Chaos for you. Your powers are not for granted. That is actually very fluffy, just like the risky daemon weapons. The god's will not allways smile on their followers, and they are dependant on their grace.

 

plus, even if the icon fails, a basic CSM squad is still superior in fighting power to a loyalist tactical squad, if not as reliable.

 

So, to your points you are trying to make the examples you give point out that the chaos list doesn't follow the 2nd (now 4th) methodology. Chaos can't modify the army by the HQ chosen, it can't choose characters that change the army.

And I see no reason why they would have to have that.

 

I can't build all of the "cult" armies that it use to be able to.

If you come to terms with the fact that some of the units might lose their gods favour during the course of the game, most cult armies are now actually a lot more diverse than they were before, especially World eaters and the Death Guard.

 

In the 3.5 Codex, the "Death Guard" units were Nurgle Chosen, Nurgle Possessed, Nurgle Chaos Marines and Nurgle Havocs. In 4th you can add Nurgle Bikes and Nurgle Assault Squads. World Eaters were previously just as limited, with Khorne Bikes being available to them instead of the Havocs. Now they get Khorne Assault Squads and Khorne Havocs.

 

I don't like the fact that some of the Khorne units are not fearless and might lose their abilities, as I have mentioned above. But I like the fact that there are now a few more choices. Really, I allways felt that the 3.5 World Eaters list was somewhat restricted.

 

Heck they didn't even give the Cult characters the ability to modify the army.

And why would that be neccessary? GW could have made the Cult units elite choices and only available as Troops if a certain Character was present. Instead they are Troops by default. That is analogue to how Eldar can now get Jetbikes and Wraithguard as Troops without having to play a certain craftworld for it. Now all the armies can be built from the basic list.

 

Ok, so we wait?

I for one enjoy playing Night Lords with the powerful basic CSM squads from the current Codex. My World Eaters are accross the country, so I only got to try a single Berserker unit from time to time, as well as a few Plague Marines. Usually I play purely undivided though. If I would have my World Eaters with me I would have assembled a Khorne Havoc squad with four flamers immediately.

 

So marines who are maybe 100-200 years old can stay true to a doctrine (charge first), but chaos marines who are thousands of years old can't?

Let's see, some loyalists get "counter charge", which might give them a +1 for the first turn if they pass a LD test. CSM units with boltguns get two CCWs instead, so allways get +1 attack over tactical Marines. If I had to chose between counter charge and Boltgun/BP/CCW, I know what I would pick. The Icon bonuses are just on top of a very strong basic troop choice.

 

When a Marine commander says he will lead the army and they will do X, when he dies the army can still do it, when the icon hits the ground chaos can't?

The loyalists will keep doing what they are supposed to have been trained to do since their initiation (which is represented by using a Character from that Chapter). Chaos Marines will lose the icon of their gods, which might result in a disfavour from said god. As I stated earlier, that is actually kind of fluffy.

 

GW's decision per the inside information was that C:Daemons was coming out and they didn't want to water it down by having marines capable of taking them. Please, the book is less about chaos marines (noise marines, plague marines) and more about renegades. The same as the 2nd edition codex. Heck it is the same book with a few more models thrown in. So much so they brought back Huron.

While the 2nd Edition Codex did have a small note on playing renegade Chapters (one small box at the beginning of the army list, explaining that while the whole list is based around the heresy Legions, there are some more recent turned traitor Chapters that have som edifferent equipment options...), the list was based on a Chaos Legion warband and the background focused pretty much entirely on the Legions. The principle to only have one iconic cult unit (Berserkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons) was the same in the 3rd Edition Codex as well, so basically in every Chaos Space Marine Codex except for 3.5, which to me does not make it that much of a travesty that GW went back to the "chaos warband" list instead of the sublist system the 3.5 Codex introduced.

[TostitoBandito]

So all the people say they are aiming towards more kid friendly. . . Read 2nd.

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...ison:ChaosCodex

 

 

Good URL comparison.

 

I've played under 2nd, 3rd (not 3.5), and now 4th. While when you break down the army of 2nd edition list it may seem simple, that codex was huge and had information all over the place. Much further from kid friendly than the more recent editions. It also contained cultist and daemon world army lists, cult terminator options, and FAR more wargear and gifts than the 4th edition codex. Far superior than the current offering in my opinion, save for the fact that it uses the old core rules.

[Raven Angel]

Yea I noted that back when My DA book got all messed up. It is somthing that has caused me great concern not just with the Chaos codex but also IG and SM. While I see how certain aspects of the system are still being changed I don't like the madating of full size squdes to get the benifits of basic gear but over all my greatest cause for concern is how the new books are sucking all the individual character out of the lists. Sure a genaric no character, no history army comes out fine but black legion or white scars players get screwed cause they can't really assemble a list the reflects there armies character.