Complaining about the C:CSM

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Sure some of the older 'dexs need to be put out first, this isnt about barging in and demanding they put something out tomorrow.

 

Well, despite being one of those who plays an older 'dex, an Errata wouldn't be that hard to put together within, say, a week, would it?

[the jeske]

Like all the cult armies were in 3.5?

did you play in 4th ed ? khorn BL worked totally different then EC[both of them] or DG armies [both of them ]. WE were close[minus 3 oblits , 2 minimax] , but there was a reason why the BL list was called BL khorn[+people could play a tier 2 WE army that worked different with footslogging WE swarm list. A AL and a WB or NL list look identical right now . Its not even simiular game play [thats always hard considering all are meq] , its identical unit set ups .

 

I don't base my view of how a specific Legion list should work on the 3.5 Codex, so I don't see why someone could not have a lot of fun trying the different CSM choices and going perhaps heavy on Chosen and play his Alpha Legion force that way.

3 things. chosen dont work . yes AL had more then just infiltration , only GW already decided to cut all the non csm stuff for the dex , so half the AL flavor[culits] is already out. you can build the same list and it will be NL or WB , so the list isnt more fluffy or more orginal and considering one doest get a fluffy force and already plays a weaker army then a cult BL list , then why play something other then BL at all.

 

You can simply only take Slaanesh units, and voila.

there is no other slanesh units in the new dex then NM . in the 3.5 you gave marks to stuff. a slanesh unit of csm was a slanesh . right now if it loses an icon they are undivided . no to mention stuff like the most dedicted cult warriors like terminators or chosen , that are less cult then normal cult guys.

 

...I thought we were talking the viability of the 5 strong troop choices, not lists made entirely of that one unit type (even if you dislike icon units, cults can still use all of the vehicles...). Forgetting the complete and utter possibility to play themed chaos lists for a moment, you will probably not tell me that Thousand Sons and Noise Marines do not have their merrits.

My guard can tell some stories about Noise Marines...

NM and 1ksons need to be played at 3+ units per army for normal sized armies [1500-1750] this means if someone wants to use them he more or less plays a mono cult list . unlike zerkers or pms who work great mixed or pure.

 

at was how Chaos Space Marine armies looked in 2nd and 3rd Edition, so I cannot really say that such lists are unfluffy to me.

the 2ed dex was suppose to have legion rules , only the book was too big for that. chambers said that a lot of times and the 3ed JJ lame dex was a rushed thing with no flavor[khorn sorcs] and sucktastic rules and was realsed just like the new dex , because GW had problems with other dexs.

 

 

on the letter side . give me the text and I can get around 60people to mail it to GW.

[Brother Hadafix]

@ Prot: Well Jarvis is the only person I can think of, as it was Jarvis that responded to the last letter I sent. He said he past it on to the development team, so can only hope that a small deluge of letters get similar treatment.That is why I dont want it to be a lesson in negative derogatory criticism. The point in the letter is to try and get some flavour back. A return to 3.5 is probably not going to happen, but they may make it more Neapolitan than the almost tasteless vanilla it is now. Whether as GMT says, it comes as errata or just when they redo the codex, would you really rather say nothing and sit in hope that the next one is some how not just 4.0 rehashed with just a few extra toys and still no way of fielding a legion properly and being stuck with just one or two decent builds?

 

@ Jeske: That would be excellent, so thats 7 + 60 unknowns. Wow not bad going so far then.

[Chengar Qordath]

Not a Chaos player (too fond of my SoB and DH), but I agree with most of the points that have been raised. I'll also mention that when I was first getting into 40k I took one look at the 4th ed. CSM Codex, saw how horribly mauled it was compared to other codices, and ruled that out as an army I'd want to play.

 

A better, more varied and flavorful codex not only makes things better for Chaos players, it also makes them a more enjoyable opponent for other armies. I always feel kind of sorry for CSM players at my LGS, since they keep trying to break out of the standard min-maxed Black Legion force that's the only competitive list, and end up getting stomped every time they do. I threw some terrible lists at them just to give them a chance of victory, and still ended up winning by a landslide; it's gotten to the point where some of them has just about quit playing (and buying stuff from GW incidentely) for despair.

 

When Inquisition players feel sorry for you, you know your army's in bad shape.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Chengar Qordath, you are a star! That is exactly what I was looking for from a non-chaos player. We want to be more flavoursome in the every day way we build our armies and we want to be a more entertaining and enjoyable opponent. We don't want outright supremecy of the galaxy handed to us on a plate, we want to fight for it with more than one army build format.

 

That is some fab wording. Brother Hadafix, the cause for the Crusade is growing. Soon we shall outnumber the prepubescents in my local GW and can start a coup if you so wish! :angry: :devil: B)

 

Or we can just ask them to send letters... :) :D

[40kChrista]

If the text is there I will send a letter to J.J. as well, I would love to see something done at some point in the future.

 

Even if it was some type of hotfix to download.

 

I love the Word Bearers, to me they they are the first Chaos Legion that grabbed me and wouldn't let go.

They are the reason I started collecting Chaos in the first place and I would love to see some type of flavor

returned to them.

 

Grim

[IronWinds]

An errata with some fixes would not be hard, harder than it would be to fix LatD, but not hard.

 

Simple fixes. Simple rules for legions till the 'legion codex' rumor comes true.

 

Alpha: No demons, no cult troops or cult marks. A cultist type unit option. Can get infiltrate USR for xpts on CSM squads.

IWs: No demons, no cult troops or cult marks. Get -1FA/+1 HS, and can take basilisk.

NLs: 0-1 lesser demons, no cult troops or cult marks. Get +1 FA/-1HS. Can buy Stealth USR for xpts.

WBs: No cult troops or cult marks. Can take Demon troop choices from codex demons. Get +1 to demon reserve rolls.

 

Cult armies: Only troop choice=Bezerkers/Thousand sons/ect(dependent on army). Can take bloodletters/horrors/ect. as demons from demon codex. Terminators, raptors, chosen, bikers, possessed, havoks can take marks that offer better upgrades than icons similar to what cult troops have, including all being fearless.

K=+1WS/+1A & no sorcerers

S=noise weapons/+1I

T=slow&purp/AP3bolters/psyker champion

N=+1T/blight/FnP

Lords/DPs/Sorcerers get similar things for taking marks. Can not take non-vehicle units with no mark or different mark.

 

Obviously Legion armies want more than just that(servo arms, dark apostles, cult vehicle upgrades, etc.), but it is a start.

 

 

Dreadnought: Old fire frenzy rules. Only shoots friendlies if it can't shoot enemies. And/Or can be given an upgrade(MoK maybe) option that always counts fire frenzy as rage.

 

Demon prince: 0-1

Have additional options including:

Multi-legged/jumping-counts as beasts for movement.

Demon weapon-same as lord.(considering how much of a double edged sword it is....)

Personal Icon for 5pts.

 

If your HQ has a mark, you can't take opposing mark anywhere in your army including on other HQs.

 

Terminators or chosen can be taken as a retinue for a lord or sorcerer.

 

Lash of Submission makes enemy unit move 6" closer to the psyker, and this move counts as their move in the following movement phase(so they can't move & count as moving for firing heavy/rapid fire weapons). Still nasty... especially on a prince but toned down a lot.

 

Possessed loose demonkin, instead get to pick 1 of the 6 abilities but each has a cost associated with it. Champion can take PW or PF.

 

 

 

Now those changes are not perfect, but if I can do that in a few minutes it shouldn't be hard to make an errata. And LatD just need a new HQ choice, and have their wargear selections redone since there is no chaos main wargear page.

[Brother Hadafix]

Though a coup would be far more interesting and carries the chaos flavour, I think it would be best to have the poor mail sorters at GW demand overtime for sorting through the letters to JJs pidgeon hole. Who knows, they may invoke Malal! :devil: :blink: :o

 

I guess the two =][= players will now become radicals. :lol:

 

As this is rapidly growing in support, if a letter can put up and agreed on in time, would everyone be able to send a letter on an agreed date? Not before or long after, I was thinking the 1st of August, though with not everyone in the UK, postal times would need to be sorted so that they all reach GW at near enough the same time.

 

Thanks for joining in Chengar Qordath, we could do with more like you.

[Raven Angel]

RAVEN - It's towards the bottom of the first page of this thread.

 

Got it looks good for an opening and count this Dark Angel and his Space Wolf GF in too. Chose should be an opponet the worries me all the time not just against a win at all costs power gamers table. 3.5 was just right and trashing it was dumb beyond belife from a marketing stand point. Look at all the gamers that you tee off and then expect them to drop 200 or 300 bucks to redo their army in this economy. That sir is my definision of insanity. You would gat alot more 50 buck buys for a couple of new squads to beef a cult army then the 5 or 6 peeps that are oh well I'll play generic and drop 300.

[Cyresh]

Well im new here... started a Word bearers army when the new codex came out ( have been around when the older dex reigned tho). I liked the way the old dex was but remember that it was in essence an update based upon chapter index astartes (with other things), i guess my point is tha gw would be more prone to printing a new eddition of the olde indexes to appease us chaos players:P Not only would this be easier to do for them but also it would take conciderably less time to make real and earn them a lot of cash on wd sales . I dunno if you agree with me but index articles would tweak the dex to suit legion and cult players, and keep the fans of regular armed to the teeth regular csm (who you know will complain about loosing ultragrit and reverting back to shooty or cc squads)

 

well i guess my rant is over, my proposition is that we write a letter to get a new edition of index astartes

[eyescrossed]

Okay, I'm definately on board.

[Shaggaroth]

Count me in as well. Although I'm sceptic as to any positive effect of this, at least I wouldn't have stayed silent.

 

Chaos fluff and 3.5 dex were part of the things that brought me into 40k. Because of financial difficulties I was only actually able to buy my army when the new Dex came out (after more than a year army planning with the old one :) ). The first thing I got was the Codex, fresh and new in the print. I read it and it crashed my mood for a week. I still play a handicapped fluffy-as-much-as-possible EC list and suffer the remarks of more competition-oriented opponents that I do not optimize my force properly (by not using teh powerbuild). And the amount of cash I spend for GW's production is slowly coming to 0. I even slowly find myself less inclined to play, other interests take more and more of my free time, although I'm still a fan of the Warhammer 40000 setting as such. I guess I subconsciously tire of winning mainly because the dice are favoring me this day... 40k has become more a converting, modelling and painting thing than a game to me. Which is sad, because I remember the enthusiasm in first 10-20 games and the defiant stand later ("So what GW is treating me bad! I WILL play my EC because I love the fluff, and I will play them my way!")... That all gave more and more space to growing disappointment. I still play from time to time, as I like tactical challenges and generally have good time with my wargaming buddies, but those moments are becoming much less frequent.

 

Is that what GW wants? Also, I do not understand the "kid-friendly" politics.... Wargaming is a niche product, and a generic teenager will much more probably stick a new shiny CD/DVD in his PC and play a "pre-painted", much more audio-and visually direct product than a game that takes working on modelling and some imagination. No offense to anyone, I'm a PC-gamer as well, I just do not see the justification behind alienating long time customers in favor of dubious popularization,

[the jeske]

@ Jeske: That would be excellent, so thats 7 + 60 unknowns. Wow not bad going so far then.

till now its 23 people +me + my wife .

[Zhukov]

Ah well count me in. Its not that hard to sent through a letter by email to GW right? And if it maybe helps you guys, why not.

[Dammeron]

100% in.

[SquirrelKing]

Count me in as well. :)

[Cyresh]

Thinking realistically the Legion dex ( think it was confirmed at a Gd or something) is atleast a few years from beeing released... We can send letters ofc but that wont speed up the process since many other armies are in desperate need of beeing redone before us... As i said before altho my words are prodably falling on deaf ears, the alternative to writing how much we want a new dex that ressembled the 3,5 one would be to ask them for a new edition of index astartes in WD. This would be faster and would boost the sales of WD conciderably and get more ppl to buy models...and would eventually lead to a compilation in the future legion dex...

This iniciative would have a high prodability of succes and we would all get our legions back to atleast some degree, and would boost WD sales conciderably (we all know gw wants to make more money)

 

Just saying that maybe this is the way to go?

[nurglez]

I'm in, I want my Nurglings!

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Wow! We're up to 30.

 

I'm still in favour of the coup but hey, i'll accept the letter if that's all I get!

[Shaggaroth]

Thinking realistically the Legion dex ( think it was confirmed at a Gd or something) is atleast a few years from beeing released... We can send letters ofc but that wont speed up the process since many other armies are in desperate need of beeing redone before us... As i said before altho my words are prodably falling on deaf ears, the alternative to writing how much we want a new dex that ressembled the 3,5 one would be to ask them for a new edition of index astartes in WD. This would be faster and would boost the sales of WD conciderably and get more ppl to buy models...and would eventually lead to a compilation in the future legion dex...

This iniciative would have a high prodability of succes and we would all get our legions back to atleast some degree, and would boost WD sales conciderably (we all know gw wants to make more money)

 

Just saying that maybe this is the way to go?

 

I have nothing against Legions appearing in WD the old Index Astartes style... If it is stated that they are completely viable and useable without the agreement of my opponent, that is. I believe it should be included in the letter. I also agree that it would be helpful to the sales of WD, with me currently not bying it regularly any more because of no beneficial content in the magazine.

[Brother Hadafix]

Wow! We're up to 30.

 

I'm still in favour of the coup but hey, i'll accept the letter if that's all I get!

 

How are you getting on in writing that? Sorry but you offered. If you get stuck like I did PM me and we can work on it together before bring it to the forum for finalisation.

 

Errata, IA of just a new dex when it comes, I think any conformation that they got it wrong with 4.0 and wont do it again would be just as good. If they choose to publish a data sheet or something in the mean time, I dont think anyone would complain.

[chillin]

in, of course.

Could maybe use parts for peoples posts' from other threads (i.e. "is chaos scarry enough" and many others). So good points were made in those as to what's wrong with this dex and suggestions as to what might be ways to fix it.

Don't think we will get anything out of it but would be good to let our dissatification be know to GW.

[Chimerical]

Thinking realistically the Legion dex ( think it was confirmed at a Gd or something) is atleast a few years from beeing released...

 

Actually, the last apparently reliable rumour was that GW was still undecided on the issue of a legions dex. At this point I'd imagine the way to fix it with a codex would be just to create CSM v5, which would undoubtedly have a similar format to 3.5 after all the flak they've received for v4. I mean, we've almost had v.4 for two years already so it would probably be redundant to start working on a legions dex (or dexes) when a new CSM one would be due out soon after anyway.

 

I therefore agree that the most realistic, and most practical for both ourselves and GW, would be through a White Dwarf Blood Angels-style release. After all, the legions rules in v3.5 were essentially all covered in about 10 pages.

 

Another point I think it's important to make is that I think it would be fruitless to complain about power levels. Despite what someone like Jeske says, the current dex is NOT unplayable without Oblits, dual DPs, or dual Lash. Sure, they're gonna have a tough time against optimised/WAAC lists, but if that's what you want from a list then this isn't the cause you should join. I'm not a fan of fixing problems like Nob Bikers, undercosted Ork Boyz and IG toys by giving the next list an abusable aspect. Besides, GW doesn't have any sympathy for that sort of complaint anyway; they'll just keep falling back on their refrain about beer and pretzels.

 

A more effective point you could make in letters would be that you don't always game with people you know well, and therefore it's too difficult to create you own 'house' rules for each game, let alone get your opponent to not be suspicious about your motives.

 

In coming up with a suggestion for how to address the problem, I think we need to look at why a pure and strongly themed Nurgle army is reasonably effective while also allowing for a bit of variety in unit choices - it's because plague marines don't lose access to the regular special weapons. In particular, they get melta guns. This is key because the other cults need to turn to other FoC areas for effective anti-tank. But this is a real dilemma - because cult troops cost so much, they need cheap sources of those melta weapons and Oblits are the only choice that fulfill both cheapness and reliability. When I say cheapness, I don't mean that they must necessarily be undercosted, but that they are specialised. With Termies, for example, you are paying not only for anti-tank, but combat against infantry. On the other hand, things like Havocs, Raptors and Bikes, while already questionable in terms of cost (a remnant from 4th Ed scoring rules), become unquestionably overcosted if you give them an Icon in an attempt to preserve theme, not to mention the Slaanesh and Khorne marks are blatantly useless on units that you want to keep shooting.

 

After Oblits, we have nothing as viable as, for example, Space Marines' Dreadnaughts, Attack Bikes and cheap Bikes, and tanks that get to fire more than one weapon on the move. In other words, cult armies (and CSM in general if we want to see more variety in lists) need more viable options for melta in the elite and fast slots.

 

[i'm gonna have to cut this post short and finish the rest of my points tomorrow]

[IronWinds]

We do want to avoid sounding like we just want 3.5 all over again. That won't go well, but while I would love some Legion rules, and that would solve my armies problems, the current chaos dex still has problems. Some things I tihnk have to be brought up....

 

I think one thing that could be done is point out how unfeasible some units are. This isn't a 3.5 was better debate, its just pointing out the obvious, pointing out the giant pink dreadnought in the room as it were. Not only are players upset about not being able to field these units, but it can't help GW that some units are not going to sell. Fixing a couple lines of text in a units rules could make some units worth taking... $$$ GW.

 

Possessed and Dreadnoughts are great examples. Something I've been looking over is Possessed under BEST circumstances(always rolling a 6 for demonkin). Honestly, they still aren't worth it. Even if you roll a 6 and get all power weapons, now you have a squad of str 5 PW wielding marines who are fearless w/ a +5inv & no ranged attacks. For 4pts more a model(termies)... loose the str 5 and fearless(which isn't so bad at Ld10), and you gain a 2+sv, twin linked bolters, the ability to DS, weapon options including PFs, LCs, and Reapers. So assuming they always rolled a 6 for their abilities its still debatable whether they are worth taking. If you roll anything less than a 6 they really suffer, and it becomes very obvious that bezerkers are better, cheaper, with more options.

 

Dreadnoughts... well I just read a battle report where in a couple turns 3 dreads had all fired on one another, destroying one, and leaving the rear armor of the others exposed to the enemy. Not exactly a feasible unit... unless we suddenly had drop pods to lock them away in. I have dreads I want to field, and I can't. In a normal battle it is way to much of a risk, and apoc the thing is likely to kill your team mate's titan... that will go over well.

 

And yes I think adding pieces of posts into this letter would be a good idea. Show GW that people are not only upset about it, but pointing out very obvious flaws.

[Firedrake28]

I'm so in. Iron Warriors were my first army damnit, and I'll not rest until I can start shelling things to death again!