Complaining about the C:CSM

[the jeske]

As I have pointed out in the other Codex bashing thread, all these complaints about how terrible the new Codex is seem to come from a narrow perspective that only knows the previous and current Chaos Codex and is completely disregarding the overall 40K trend all the latest Codices have been following over the past few years to remove sub list options and instead incorporate the potential for different lists into one single army list, as well as disregarding the Chaos Codices prior to 3.5. Saying that the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos was better seems to come from nostalgic memories more than anything else, as that list pales in comparison to the options in the 4th Edition Codex, as well as having vastly inferior units.

 

When Codex Eldar had been redone, they lost the different Craftworld lists. But some choices have been changed (Jetbikes, Wraithguard) and some new choices have been added (Pathfinders, Seer Council), so now it is possible to buils all the Craftworld armies with the basic Eldar list.

 

Space Marines have lost the Chapter Trait system. Instead, now the list can slightly be changed depending on the Character leading the force. (This relies heavily in the uise of special characters and has been a terrible choice in my opinion.)

 

Imperial Guard has lost the Doctrine System, but now it is possible to use mechanised units, or veterans with carapace armoru or camo cloaks even in the basic list.

 

Chaos has lost the "give them a mark to make them something else" system as well as the "pump the character full of gear" options. Instead, now you can buy cult units that are very effective by default, and do not have to be made effective by equipping them.

m8 but you do understand that with codex sm/IG or eldar you can make different lists that work and are fluffy [or not] . with chaos you can make a fluffy BL list that works and thats it .It has the same game play ,identical set up of support unit [dps , oblits, termicid are an auto include .] this ends up with all chaos list looking the same and totally boring , while with eldar/IG or sm special character builds its not the case. also your talking about the 3.5 dex , the old 3ed dex done by JJ was lame as hell [and our new dex is very much a clone of that one]. also dont say that people lost just HQs or pumped up squads . EC players had dreads , preds havocks made illegal . every cult player lost cult terminators etc . Even when putting fluff aside we traded 7 working lists for 1 BL one.

 

 

 

I am not sure what you are aming at with that remark. As if changing army list entries would be important for interresting army options. Also, cult units are now simply troop choices, instead of having made a troop choice by a Character.

yes because if it was possible to take an AL special that makes chosen scoring it would only make AL lists viable and fluffy . instead of going pms/zerkers counts BL clone list. or a WB special that lets WB take real demons and not LSD. 2 specials and it would be two different lists with different game play and set up . but hey instead everyone can play BL and be happy about it.

 

Just as the new Codex Eldar allows to build "Craftworld" lists with the basic army list, and how the Chaos icon system allows cult armies with the basic list.

again wrong . its impossible to build a working NM lists [aka EC] lists without taking non EC stuff. its impossible to build a working 1ksons army at all. Pms can be made working in a LR rush build , but they work much better in a BL type list [half zerkers/half pms]. with IG , orks or eldar one can build a working clan/regiment/craftworld army with chaos its impossible [not to mention AL/WB or NL that look like weaker versions of BL] .

 

your lists are only going to have that "identical set up" if you're a power gamer.

no its the sensible way . chaos doesnt have any tier 2 armies [like ork speed freaks builds or eldar ghost warrior army build] . If someone tries to build a fluffy WB/AL/NL list the only thing that makes them different is the paint . and the only thing that makes them different from BL lists is that they are weaker and thats all. they dont trade more powerful options for being more fluffy [like most tier 2 lists do]. No , they trade power for being painted in a different way.

just because that list is considered the MOST effective from the new codex, doesn't mean it's the ONLY effective one.

cool . hmm only I wonder why do all tournament lists for chaos[and tournaments are all about being effective] look the same , while sm or ork armies have a few different builds . I wonder why ?

Chaos has 5 very strong troop choices to build an army around, and the basic CSM unit can be upgraded with 5 powerfull stat increases, even if that can be lost later. I hope you are not trying to tell me that an all T4(5) force or an all A2 force is not a big thing.

lets look over those troop choices . pms and zerkers are imba. 1ksons suck hard [ah and by the way they are ap3 auto lose against a DW or LR rush build] , because of cover and points costs and the fact that the bolters are still str 4 . NM closest thing to a tier list is my water warrior lists [that gets carried by oblits and lash] . one can take csm with icons , but its not really worth it as playing cults [2 zerkers/2pms] is superior doesnt cost a lot more points and most important doesnt make you lose buffs when the icon guy dies.

 

The loyalists will keep doing what they are supposed to have been trained to do since their initiation (which is represented by using a Character from that Chapter). Chaos Marines will lose the icon of their gods, which might result in a disfavour from said god. As I stated earlier, that is actually kind of fluffy.

it also makes playing with csm a sub par option to using cult units .

 

While the 2nd Edition Codex did have a small note on playing renegade Chapters (one small box at the beginning of the army list, explaining that while the whole list is based around the heresy Legions, there are some more recent turned traitor Chapters that have som edifferent equipment options...), the list was based on a Chaos Legion warband and the background focused pretty much entirely on the Legions. The principle to only have one iconic cult unit (Berserkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons) was the same in the 3rd Edition Codex as well, so basically in every Chaos Space Marine Codex except for 3.5, which to me does not make it that much of a travesty that GW went back to the "chaos warband" list instead of the sublist system the 3.5 Codex introduced.

and more then a few times chambers said that the legion rules didnt make it in to the 2ed dex , because the book was already bigger then any other army book . the 3ed JJ dex was seen by all as a total flop , both considering sales and the fluff/playabilty of the armies made out of the dex. the 3.5 dex is on the other hand seen as one of the best codexs ever made , with tons of fluff and different builds[both top , middle and low tier]. The 4th ed dex we have now gives us one army that can either be played as LR rush or mech . and thats it.

[Pigeons]

As I have pointed out in the other Codex bashing thread, all these complaints about how terrible the new Codex is seem to come from a narrow perspective that only knows the previous and current Chaos Codex and is completely disregarding the overall 40K trend all the latest Codices have been following over the past few years to remove sub list options and instead incorporate the potential for different lists into one single army list, as well as disregarding the Chaos Codices prior to 3.5. Saying that the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos was better seems to come from nostalgic memories more than anything else, as that list pales in comparison to the options in the 4th Edition Codex, as well as having vastly inferior units.

 

When Codex Eldar had been redone, they lost the different Craftworld lists. But some choices have been changed (Jetbikes, Wraithguard) and some new choices have been added (Pathfinders, Seer Council), so now it is possible to buils all the Craftworld armies with the basic Eldar list.

 

Space Marines have lost the Chapter Trait system. Instead, now the list can slightly be changed depending on the Character leading the force. (This relies heavily in the uise of special characters and has been a terrible choice in my opinion.)

 

Imperial Guard has lost the Doctrine System, but now it is possible to use mechanised units, or veterans with carapace armoru or camo cloaks even in the basic list.

 

Chaos has lost the "give them a mark to make them something else" system as well as the "pump the character full of gear" options. Instead, now you can buy cult units that are very effective by default, and do not have to be made effective by equipping them.

m8 but you do understand that with codex sm/IG or eldar you can make different lists that work and are fluffy [or not] . with chaos you can make a fluffy BL list that works and thats it .It has the same game play ,identical set up of support unit [dps , oblits, termicid are an auto include .] this ends up with all chaos list looking the same and totally boring , while with eldar/IG or sm special character builds its not the case. also your talking about the 3.5 dex , the old 3ed dex done by JJ was lame as hell [and our new dex is very much a clone of that one]. also dont say that people lost just HQs or pumped up squads . EC players had dreads , preds havocks made illegal . every cult player lost cult terminators etc . Even when putting fluff aside we traded 7 working lists for 1 BL one.

 

 

 

 

my list looks nothing like that. i have no oblits or terminators, no vindicators, no plague marines. and just one demon prince, who isn't a lash prince.

 

 

 

your lists are only going to have that "identical set up" if you're a power gamer.

 

 

just because that list is considered the MOST effective from the new codex, doesn't mean it's the ONLY effective one.

[the jeske]

Let's see, some loyalists get "counter charge", which might give them a +1 for the first turn if they pass a LD test. CSM units with boltguns get two CCWs instead, so allways get +1 attack over tactical Marines. If I had to chose between counter charge and Boltgun/BP/CCW, I know what I would pick. The Icon bonuses are just on top of a very strong basic troop choice.

well considering its sw and they either have true grit or ccw/pistol or are BC they always get at least the same number of attacks as charged csm [and in the case of BC more ].

[Pigeons]

"cool . hmm only I wonder why do all tournament lists for chaos[and tournaments are all about being effective] look the same , while sm or ork armies have a few different builds . I wonder why ?"

 

 

uhhh because tournaments are all about winning at all costs?

 

 

no one enters a tournament "just for fun"...they enter intending to win. so obviously they're going to take the most powerful and optimized list they possibly can.

 

 

but in normal everyday gaming against friends, i'm playing FOR FUN, not to win, so i don't care if my army is considered "less powerful".

[Brother Hadafix]

I take it Legatus and Pigeons dont want to be part of this then.

 

Please keep this on track people, if you dont want in then fine, but that no reason to derail the issue. If the number of those will is high enough then this cant harm then end result, and maybe some of us will return to playing Chaos or be able to play our previous armies.

 

Refuse, does this mean your on board? Do you know of others that would be happy to join in?

 

GMT: Does this mean your on board as well?

[the jeske]

uhhh because tournaments are all about winning at all costs?

o rly ? hmm I wonder why people played legion armies other the IW or khorn BL in 4th ed then. AL or PM armies werent top tier , but were still played . People even played with non demon bomb WB or EC . hmm I wonder why , maybe because they were different and were something more then a way to paint ?

 

but in normal everyday gaming against friends, i'm playing FOR FUN, not to win, so i don't care if my army is considered "less powerful".

 

m8 and sm have not top tier builds that are fluffy and different from what normally played [khan or biker lists or biker/dreads lists , shriek builds ] , that are still playable . when you try to do something different with chaos [lets say change oblits or dps for something else] you A dont get a different list and B you get something that is not less powerful , you get something that is unplayable .

also out of pure interest you play BL or something custom right ?

[Legatus]

m8 but you do understand that with codex sm/IG or eldar you can make different lists that work and are fluffy [or not] . with chaos you can make a fluffy BL list that works and thats it

I must respectfully claim that that's not at all the case. B) I have greatly enjoyed playing undivided only Night Lords so far. Successfully as well. In a 1500 points list you can pretty much rely solely on CSM, Raptors and Havocs, basically evil loyalist Marines, and all of those units will perform well and get the job done. I don't use a lot of Terminators with my loyalist armies, and tehy don't get powerfull uber units eitehr, and they still do well. Undivided Chaos has the same core set of units, but instead of ATSKNF they have different (usually better) wargear options. You then can add Icons and Cult units on top of that.

 

also your talking about the 3.5 dex

I am mostly talking about the 3.5 Codex, but there have been a few claims that all the older Codices, specifically including the 3rd Edition Codex, have been better than the current one, and that claim just cannot be left unadressed.

 

also dont say that people lost just HQs or pumped up squads . EC players had dreads , preds havocks made illegal . every cult player lost cult terminators etc . Even when putting fluff aside we traded 7 working lists for 1 BL one.

My sympathies go to EC or I players whose opponents won't let their vehicle mounted blast masters count as missile launchers or the Basilisk as a Vindicator or Defiler.

 

yes because if it was possible to take an AL special that makes chosen scoring it would only make AL lists viable and fluffy

I don't base my view of how a specific Legion list should work on the 3.5 Codex, so I don't see why someone could not have a lot of fun trying the different CSM choices and going perhaps heavy on Chosen and play his Alpha Legion force that way. My Night Lords work fine with the current Codex. Last I checked the AL used infiltration more to achieve long term goals, while actually employing multiple venues at once when attacking.

 

or a WB special that lets WB take real demons and not LSD.

Do Word Bearer armies come with heaps of cult daemons in every encounter tehy are in? I doubt it. Now they can take loads and loads of warp critters, but the big summonings of the dark four will only happen on special occasions, i.e. in apocalypse or when the opponent agrees on multiple armies per side.

 

again wrong . its impossible to build a working NM lists [aka EC] lists without taking non EC stuff.

Not even the 3.5 Codex required that EC lists had to consist of Noise Marines only. In fact, they were the only cult list that was not severely limited in their unit equipment like World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons were. You can simply only take Slaanesh units, and voila.

 

its impossible to build a working 1ksons army at all.

Not sure about them, but I guess it would be a challenge.

 

[not to mention AL/WB or NL that look like weaker versions of BL] .

Like all the cult armies were in 3.5? ^_^

 

1ksons suck hard [ah and by the way they are ap3 auto lose against a DW or LR rush build]

I think a list concentrating on "gift of chaos" could be funny to try against a DW list. I also assume Thousand Sons would rely heavily on vehicles for heavy weapon fire. Also...

 

NM closest thing to a tier list

...I thought we were talking the viability of the 5 strong troop choices, not lists made entirely of that one unit type (even if you dislike icon units, cults can still use all of the vehicles...). Forgetting the complete and utter possibility to play themed chaos lists for a moment, you will probably not tell me that Thousand Sons and Noise Marines do not have their merrits.

My guard can tell some stories about Noise Marines...

 

it also makes playing with csm a sub par option to using cult units .

Yeah. "Do I use Codex Dark Angels for my Dark Angels, or do I use Codex Space Marines? Or even Codex Chaos Space Marines? I dunno..." :P

 

Of course I could use Berserkers and Plague Marines in my Night Lords list (and I actually try that sometimes), but maybe I will stick to the fluffy units instead. I understand fluff ist not for everyone, and sometimes I would wish GW would cut down on certain unfluffy choices. But there is nothing wrong in simply chosing to play a "warband" chaos force, instead of a specific Legion. That was how Chaos Space Marine armies looked in 2nd and 3rd Edition, so I cannot really say that such lists are unfluffy to me. I still like to play exclusive Night Lord lists as well.

 

the 3.5 dex is on the other hand seen as one of the best codexs ever made

Not by me. All the choices were definitely nice, but it was a bit too much as well. Especially in the character equipment department.

 

well considering its sw and they either have true grit or ccw/pistol or are BC...

I don't consider it's SW. Who said it's SW? I thought we were generally comparing loyalist and Chaos capabilities, so I would first assume that refers to the single upgraded tactical squad under Sicarius or the 4th Edition Codex Space Marines. If we consider that it's Space Wolves then we have to consider that they are 18 points. For usually the same number of attacks, as you have pointed out yourself.

(For those +3 points you could equip a 10 men unit of CSM with an Icn of Khorne, actually...)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

GMT: Does this mean your on board as well?

 

As an outsider's view, yes. Bear in mind that I'm not a Chaos player, never have been, and in all probability never will be (I like the Inquisition too much ^_^ ). That does mean I've little experience on the exact details of what's bad about the Chaos Codex, but it also means I have nothing to gain out of whining to GW.

[nurglez]

the cult list in 3.5 was great, i loved it, having a free champion if your squad was the right number, IW getting an extra heavy, NL getting an extra fast, it was nice. I liked that i could have plaguemarine havocs (even if i could only use special weapons).

 

The wargear options were a bit too much, in that you could mix and match and make some really nasty daemon princes (my guy was str 9 I6 on the charge, which was tasty).

 

I'm looking at my DG army, and looking at the planetstrike force org, and thinking, wow, this doesnt help me at all, due to me not wanting to take units with icons of nurgle over PM's.

 

Please please, all i want is some DG options that are fluffy for elite/fast attack, and give me back my nurglings!

[Brother Hadafix]

Jeske, Legatus enough already! There are loads of topics about the pros and cons of 4.0, take your fight to them, you are adding nothing to this topic that has not ready been said in them. Quite it or I think of calling in the =][=! This is about those that dont want a repeat of 4.0 doing something proactive!

 

GMT: Excellent! If you know of any others that would like to join in, please invite them.

 

Nurgelz: Hopefully this will accomplish something towards that goal. If it makes you feel any better, my Lost and the Damned were going to have a Champion leading Rough Riders on a Slaaneshi Steed, with Demon Weapon and a pet Spawn and had minor psychic powers. Never got to use him though, by the time he was done the Codex was dead. :lol:

 

Has anybody read the small rough draft that I posted? Need to know how to expand it and what else to add. Please dont make it to much of a wish list or hostile.

 

Does anyone here know people on BoLS or Warseer and know if they would also participate?

[incinerator950]

I would like to get onboard with you guys but I'm too new to Chaos with only codexs 3.5 and 4.0, and no games played yet, still building an army, which I don't have access to because I just got kicked from my home earlier in the week and my 2 PM squads, Defiler, and Sorcerer are back home.

[IronFather_Midel]

Maybe, maybe not. Even as a SM player I was horrorfied at what they did to the Chaos codex. It's to put it planly the worst work I have ever seen come out of GW and I've read and own alot of the old old stuff. It doesn't even do a good job representing most of the older renagade chapters much less the legions. It's like codex Red Corsairs not Codex Chaos SM. I been think about writing Jervis Johnson about it but need my older book and IA stuff in order to come up with some better ways of doing it. Along with the letter it might help to have some ways of fixing what they broke.

Exactly! If you think of a renegade chapers that has gone all-in to a Chaos god, they'd be much more bad-ass then what GW wants you to play them as. If only they combined CSM and the Daemons codex

[incinerator950]

In all honesty I feel this codex is meant to be a Black Legion/Red Corsair/Renegades Chaos Marines codex, and even fails that as well.

[IronWinds]

If a letter is written I'm on board.

 

Have over 10,000pts of chaos, use to be a moderator on 2 different chaos forums, and use to spend a few hundred dollars a year at GW.

 

Shortly after 4th ed CSM codex came out both sites became inactive, and I have not spent a dime at GW. I have bought a few books off amazon, but until Lost and the Damned get rules, OR a Legion codex comes out, OR the chaos codex is redone 'correctly' I am boycotting GW. Notice the 'OR's. I'm not picky, fix one of the three, but till then I see no reason to spend money at GW when... with 1 codex they made several hundred dollars worth of minis* that took several hundred hours of customization/painting unfieldable. Oh and an army that was different from every other just became the normal BL list. If I wanted to play BL I wouldn't of spent extra on the metallic silver paint, special IW heads, shoulder pads, and IH bionics.

 

*2 basilisks, a non-statured demon prince in terminator armor, and over 1850pts of Lost and the Damned(I even bought some guard tanks just for them....).

 

EDIT: Forgot about my dreadnoughts. Legally fieldable, but really unfeasible.

 

Screw chaos renegades, they can do what they have always done and take the BL list to run with. You left a lot of Legion players in the dark because you couldn't take the time to add 8 pages to the codex :D . That or you wanted to make extra money selling a separate Legion codex, which I'm fine with, but it should of come out many months ago.

[Night Lord Dred]

no its the sensible way . chaos doesnt have any tier 2 armies [like ork speed freaks builds or eldar ghost warrior army build] . If someone tries to build a fluffy WB/AL/NL list the only thing that makes them different is the paint . and the only thing that makes them different from BL lists is that they are weaker and thats all. they dont trade more powerful options for being more fluffy [like most tier 2 lists do]. No , they trade power for being painted in a different way.

 

This, to me, sums of this codex. I either pick these obvious optimal choices, or Im handicapping myself. It doesnt even have anything to do with a different strategy - If I pick a Lord over a Prince, Im handicapping myself. If I pick a predator tank over an oblit, Im handicapping myself.

 

I obviously play Night Lords, and I hate how if I dont run oblits, defilers, zerkers, or plagues to follow the NL fluff, Im going to get owned.

 

 

I ran a fluffy NL list against my new ork friend, where i had vanilla marines, chaos lord, havocs, and so on, and I got wiped off the board. Granted, I did it on purpose because it was his first game, but other than that game, I havent even lost a game, as I always take zerkers, a prince, and obliterators. I even won a tournament a few weeks ago (won more oblits). I dont play all the time, but in the 30 or so games Ive played, Ive never lost. Im not trying to be cocky or brag about it, because I made my list based off what you vets on here say about competitive lists - basically the 1 good build (although I do use warptime Prince instead of lash, and funny enough i beat a lash chaos player to win the tournament).

 

Basically to sum it up, Ive switched to nids to play with, while still building and painting my CSM models (as IMO, they are still the best models in the game).

[Raven Angel]

Has anybody read the small rough draft that I posted? Need to know how to expand it and what else to add. Please dont make it to much of a wish list or hostile.

 

Where's it at I can't find it?

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

RAVEN - It's towards the bottom of the first page of this thread.

 

GMT - I don't think you need Chaos experience to help us moan, i think actually getting some non-chaos players to say "we are fed up of seeing the same builds every week with 2 DPs and a collosal number of Obliterators" and such may help (rewording may be needed, please don't quote that in your letter!). If it's not just us saying "we don't like our codex" but we also get people, especially Loyalist collectors, saying "we don't like their codex" then we could get a better response.

 

Brother Hadafix - I'll work up some stuff towards a letter this week and PM it to you if you like. I may tweak your start just to make it fit but will use it for my 'starter for 10'.

 

Oh and yeah, as much as your arguement is somewhat helpful, it's not really on topic. This is about rallying support and finding people who are onside rather than Rantfest 09.

[Corpse.]

With the generic-icity and generalizing of all codexes, I've become more of a simpleton of referring to WH40k as "nothing more then a game with rules" and detach it entirely from the original state of mindset when I first fell in love with the game.

 

Its stock marketing, and user friendly with kitten mittens supplied in high demand to widen the customer base. Nothing more, nothing less. Leaving the minority of select few to make the game how they want it to be made.

 

Games workshop used to endorse and encourage player subtle changes, now its shunned and happy-face band-aided with the label: counts-as.

 

A complaint, but a complaint in the sense I gave up and I couldn't care less anymore what GW turns the game into. I'm just not buying any more, because GW made me lose interest in buying, and I benefit from everyone else quitting by taking what they don't want, for the cost of the product to make them. (Having bought a classic predator for 5 bucks a few weeks ago for example)

 

For the rules. I can say it falls into two categories. Indecent and/or abrasive use of the rules (loop holes or powerful combos that make the rest of the codexes units obsolete in comparison). And the connection of the rules to the actual avatars they represent. Example led by cult armies which to be fielded now, fluffily made of only troop choices and vehicles of startling low flexibility and temptation to counts-as credited to GW's new sales angling.

 

Feedback from the codex in request, summarised:

Spawns need changing.

Dreadnoughts need a rules fix or be cheaper for killing their own worth in your models in some situations.

Cult units need deviations so they fill other choices in the FOC, like add terminator armor to zerks at +xx points and make them elites.

Level out the rules and update them properly, like pavane of slaanesh compared to lash of submission, which in spirit, are the same power.

Chaos lords are fine, maybe add more suicide factor - I wouldn't care, just give them something that really puts them aside from Sorc/DP.

 

I come here less and less. I'll be around more if the chaos codex gets a revamp or news of hopeful changes.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

GMT - I don't think you need Chaos experience to help us moan, i think actually getting some non-chaos players to say "we are fed up of seeing the same builds every week with 2 DPs and a collosal number of Obliterators" and such may help (rewording may be needed, please don't quote that in your letter!). If it's not just us saying "we don't like our codex" but we also get people, especially Loyalist collectors, saying "we don't like their codex" then we could get a better response.

 

Not just that, I think you've been treated despicably in being "left out in the cold". Yes, codicies are hard to write, yes you've got it wrong before with 3.0, but you fixed it with 3.5. Would it really be so hard to do a quick C:CSM 4.5? By listening to the fanbase you wouldn't even need to do much work yourself.

 

Also, I hope the current situation of palming off factions with sub-standard codicies (BA, CSM, possibly DA too) and then ignoring the fans completely is not going to become standard practice. We're not stupid, and we can see all too well the Machiavellian business model that GW is employing (ignoring your supporters, since they'll supposedly remain supportive anyway, and instead rewarding new supporters).

 

I fear one day, when 40k is no longer the next 'cool' thing, GW will turn around and find out that in the process of trying to attract more followers, they'll have wiped out their core fanbase. I hope it never happens, but surely someone can only take so much, especially when they've invested a lot of money in GW.

[Brother Hadafix]

@ CLS: Thanks again, but there isnt to much of a rush unless this gets at least 10 people on side quickly. If that happens then its a case of arranging a date to send the letters. Much better having them arrive about the same time rather than in drips and drabs, it makes a bigger impact.

 

@ Corpse: Does that mean your on side? Whats the worse that could happen? You lose the cost of postage, but if anyone gets a response then all those involved get one.

 

@ Incenorator950: If you want on board then get on board, it not like a final draft has been agreed on yet and you wont need anything other than a way of printing and sending it.

 

So far I think there is five of us. My self (an former chaos player) GMT (not a chaos player) CLS (a chaos player) Iron Winds (a chaos player) and I950 (a chaos player) that are confirmed as onside. We need a lot more people! I wonder if Abaddon ever has these problems, probably why hes so angry all the time and has a tendency to destroy things. :tu:

[Theis]

I'm on board. Even as a new chaos player, I'd love to see some the changes this thread has discussed.

[Zhukov]

As much as I would love to see a new and 'better' Chaos codex, I would even rather like to see some older codexes ('cons, DE etc. etc.) updated. At least we got 1 top tier build.

 

I also dont think it really works. GW do what they want anyway. I do think however they will make a 'better' codex next time for 'us'.

[Brother Hadafix]

As much as I would love to see a new and 'better' Chaos codex, I would even rather like to see some older codexes ('cons, DE etc. etc.) updated. At least we got 1 top tier build.

 

I also dont think it really works. GW do what they want anyway. I do think however they will make a 'better' codex next time for 'us'.

 

Sure some of the older 'dexs need to be put out first, this isnt about barging in and demanding they put something out tomorrow.

 

If enough people say that what they have now is not really good enough, they have no excuse if the next codex is as bad as this one, or worse, and players start dropping out of the game. And I have had a reply from Mr Jonson in the past stating that he does take an interest in what the "grass roots" has to say.

 

@ Theis: Cheers! And then there was six :)

[incinerator950]

Count me in then, and I may be able to get some more people to bandwaggon as well.

 

Edit: I must have overshot the wrong post to quote lol

[Prot]

There's a few things I'd like to say here because I think this is a more 'positively' inspired thread, rather than just more bitching and whining... of which I am certainly guilty of.

 

1. I never wrote a letter. I probably should have but the people I had contact with included the now M.I.A. Pete Haines. I mean who do you write this to, Jervis? I don't think that will do anything. The guy who wrote the codex isn't even in the studio anymore. I'm really not sure who you'd write to in order to actually get your message in the hands of someone with ability or desire to give a crap. Alessio? I know Gav hadn't really been playing 40K. I know that because he came to my city to play a tournament and admitted as much.

 

2. I know for a fact.... or at least I knew for a fact (back in the day a bit here) that many of the developers, and studio members DO read what's here. Although GW doesn't officially look at the internet as a source for anything, I used to receive the odd email/message from studio members that did say they were aware what happened not only on the BnC but even an old chaos e-list I ran with a good bloke named Phil (now a mod at Warseer).

 

3. Assuming the two above statements are true, what is really the goal?

 

4. Someone said, in good nature, that all you can build is renegade lists, but the codex was lacking for other legions. I would like to say this is untrue. Not only is the codex lacking for established legions, but it had too many units that are JUST PLAIN BAD. Almost unusable. It goes beyond fluff. It goes beyond which Legion you play. There is a good 70% of that codex you could rip out and throw right into a chaos fire pit (the one Doomrider rode into) and you wouldn't miss that 70% of the codex!!!!

 

I re-read the codex a lot. Trying to find a hidden nugget, a positive angle. It's just not there. The whole thing needs re-vamping, not just targeting legions vs. renegades. LONG LIVE HURON (had to get that in there). Undivided is easily as boring and ineffective as any marked legion.

 

4.b I would not bring other codices into the conversation. Other than to make the comparisson of 'codex X is a good example of what you like'. The Eldar comparison is moot. To say Codex X is way better doesn't really do ANYTHING positive for the cause. Nor does saying Codex X is just as bad... two wrongs don't make a right. I'd stick to "CHAOS". Period. That's what it should be about.