Complaining about the C:CSM

[Drudge Dreadnought]

All they really need to do is put out an announcement/errata/faq that says the 3.5 dex is now legal to be used aswell as the current chaos dex for tournament play etc, and then release a decent Faq for it to bring it up to speed with 5th ed (fix old rending for example). Quick and easy solution until they want to write the nex dex or a legions dex.

[Cyresh]

i believe that the matter can be resolved succesfully (this meaning that we may get rules in some form or other). i believe we could get rules for separate legions in Wd in some form on another. I mean the rules for the undivided legions were 1 page in 3,5. the god specific legions had 2 or 3 pages. I think it would bea easier to convince GW to publish a number of articles on specific legions in WD ( more sales ). Furthermore i believe that it would be easiest for Gw to the legion rules on the base of the curent dex, since the legions based mostly on upgrades for terminators and vehicles ect. This would be easy to do and would appease the disheartened legion players, that plus the undivided players get to keep ultragrit Csm units( hey we have a advantage in wargear over their flagship smurfs so lets try to keep it :tu:)

 

Oh and just i agree that by no means is C:Csm unplayable without lashes and the like... it is tricky at times but not unplayable....

but i digress...

either way im with you on this all the way lets see this to WD atleast

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Remember in the 3.5 dex Chaos had veteran skills and daemonic gifts instead of ultracrit. I'd much rather go back to that.

[Cyresh]

unless i am mistaken only the asp champion could take gifts, but i agree that loosing veteran abilities was a blow.... However i believe that ultragrit is one of tha factors that made the new codex less painfull. Besides that many ppl see ultragrit as something that sets csm apart from smurfs...Some of my awuiantances say it gives csm a more elite and veteran feel to them...

[refuse]

I can't build all of the "cult" armies that it use to be able to.

If you come to terms with the fact that some of the units might lose their gods favour during the course of the game, most cult armies are now actually a lot more diverse than they were before, especially World eaters and the Death Guard.

 

In the 3.5 Codex, the "Death Guard" units were Nurgle Chosen, Nurgle Possessed, Nurgle Chaos Marines and Nurgle Havocs. In 4th you can add Nurgle Bikes and Nurgle Assault Squads. World Eaters were previously just as limited, with Khorne Bikes being available to them instead of the Havocs. Now they get Khorne Assault Squads and Khorne Havocs.

 

I don't like the fact that some of the Khorne units are not fearless and might lose their abilities, as I have mentioned above. But I like the fact that there are now a few more choices. Really, I allways felt that the 3.5 World Eaters list was somewhat restricted.

 

Wait, I think here is the problem.

World Eaters, dedicated to Khorne, Beserkers extraordinary and the HTHiest army in 40k shouldn't have been restrictive? All the cults should be restricted, that is the point.

 

Wide open (though should be limited in chaos) - Renegades

Wide open - Undivided

Restricted - Legion armies

Restricted - Cult armies

Very Restricted - True Legion Cult armies.

 

Playing the Emperor's Children as a siege or defense army isn't in line with their fluff. But I think you are pointing out a problem with 40k now adays. Fluff isn't important.

 

Now don't get me wrong, 3.5 had all Khorne = World Eaters, all Nurgle = Death Guard, and all Tzeetnch = 1k Sons.

Now though, you can't do a cult.

 

Why do I still say that after your previous answers (snipped for speed), because my Elites are less dedicated then my Troops, and my elites can't take the same upgrades as my troops. So for Slaanesh, I can have Noise Marine Troops, but once promoted to Elite they loose fearless, the extra attack (native) and can't carry sonic weapons, but hey I can take beserkers now! That isn't even in the realm of following the fluff.

 

Heck they didn't even give the Cult characters the ability to modify the army.

And why would that be neccessary? GW could have made the Cult units elite choices and only available as Troops if a certain Character was present. Instead they are Troops by default. That is analogue to how Eldar can now get Jetbikes and Wraithguard as Troops without having to play a certain craftworld for it. Now all the armies can be built from the basic list.

Ok, so how do I make Noise Marine Terminators, or Noise marine bikes?

How do I make my Terminators as blood thirsty as my Troops?

How do I make my elites as dedicated as my troops?

I can't?

 

Ok, so we wait?

I for one enjoy playing Night Lords with the powerful basic CSM squads from the current Codex. My World Eaters are accross the country, so I only got to try a single Berserker unit from time to time, as well as a few Plague Marines. Usually I play purely undivided though. If I would have my World Eaters with me I would have assembled a Khorne Havoc squad with four flamers immediately.

And not one of them driven to hth combat.

How do my Havoc squad will all flamers and bolters represent the heavy elements of a noise marine army per the fluff.

So marines who are maybe 100-200 years old can stay true to a doctrine (charge first), but chaos marines who are thousands of years old can't?

Let's see, some loyalists get "counter charge", which might give them a +1 for the first turn if they pass a LD test. CSM units with boltguns get two CCWs instead, so allways get +1 attack over tactical Marines. If I had to chose between counter charge and Boltgun/BP/CCW, I know what I would pick. The Icon bonuses are just on top of a very strong basic troop choice.

That is because as you say, you play undivided.

I choose frearless/sonic armed havocs. . .

I like my smaller (because of cost) and harder (because of upgrades), and elite (tougher and all around better equipped) Emperor's Children. And they stand out.

Now they are just Emperor's children painted chaos marines. The army can be called Emperor's Children, or "bob's army" for all it matters, and all the limitations and advantages those limitations give it.

 

Heck, there is nothing in my army, any Khorne based army (cause you don't have to do anything to claim you are khorne based) army can't have!

 

When a Marine commander says he will lead the army and they will do X, when he dies the army can still do it, when the icon hits the ground chaos can't?

The loyalists will keep doing what they are supposed to have been trained to do since their initiation (which is represented by using a Character from that Chapter). Chaos Marines will lose the icon of their gods, which might result in a disfavour from said god. As I stated earlier, that is actually kind of fluffy.

Fluffly?

A marine dedicated to slaanesh since the Heresy gets the disfavor of Slaanesh (cause they are elite) when the icon hits the ground?

Fluffy?

 

GW's decision per the inside information was that C:Daemons was coming out and they didn't want to water it down by having marines capable of taking them. Please, the book is less about chaos marines (noise marines, plague marines) and more about renegades. The same as the 2nd edition codex. Heck it is the same book with a few more models thrown in. So much so they brought back Huron.

While the 2nd Edition Codex did have a small note on playing renegade Chapters (one small box at the beginning of the army list, explaining that while the whole list is based around the heresy Legions, there are some more recent turned traitor Chapters that have som edifferent equipment options...), the list was based on a Chaos Legion warband and the background focused pretty much entirely on the Legions. The principle to only have one iconic cult unit (Berserkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons) was the same in the 3rd Edition Codex as well, so basically in every Chaos Space Marine Codex except for 3.5, which to me does not make it that much of a travesty that GW went back to the "chaos warband" list instead of the sublist system the 3.5 Codex introduced.

Not every one, the original book (RT era Slaves to darkness) had the individual armies.

RT - Army lists for cults/legions

2nd - didn't

3rd - didn't but they published articles to let you

3.5 - did

4th didn't.

 

So 2, 3, and 4 all didn't.

RT (first) and 3.5 and 3.0 did.

 

No, sorry, the sublist system was the original way. Take a look at the Slaves to darkness, and the lost and the damned books. Darn good books filled with lots of fluff. And they set the tone. The simpler books of 2nd, and the pamphlet of 3.0 and the reprint of 2nd we call 4th. . .

 

So take a look at the RT era books, they came first .

[Chimerical]

@ Drudge: Whatever you think about the merits of v3.5, it's not coming back. Hell will freeze over before GW says, '3.5 is legal again and here's a 5th ed FAQ for it, just forget v4 ever existed'.

 

Again, I just think people should avoid sounding too hysterical or unreasonable in their expectations of what GW should do (Note: I mean unreasonable by GW standards). Our focus should be on what we can do with the current codex with a few tweaks to make the legions playable as a well-rounded force.

 

This could be really simple. First, we go back to having Marks priced per model. The concept of Icons has been a huge failure because no one takes squads larger than 10 models, and for non-troops it is almost always less, which just makes the Icons' costings absurdly over-priced.

 

Marks convey the full benefits that we see on the cult troops presently.

 

Dreadnaughts have the crazed rule altered for each cult, and the wording is changed so that enemy units within range are prioritised over friendly units. For example, Khornate dreadnaughts: Rolls of 1 or 6 mean the dreadnaught gets fleet and must move and run at and if possible assault nearest enemy unit. Slaanesh dreads: Rolls of 1 or 6, fires all weapons twice at closest enemy unit within range of shortest range gun (bolter or flamer), if no enemies within range, then at friendly.

 

Noise marines get access to all special weapons in addition to sonic weapons, but still must have 10 models to access two special weapons. Plague Marines should also require 10 to get two special weapons, in my opinion. Alternatively, the blastmaster gets a third setting that offers more reliable tank-hunting than the 8/3 blast (and maybe then justifies its horrendous pricing).

 

Thousand Sons sorcerers get a better version of Bolt of Change, it gets the melta rule and goes down in cost (make it 20 points?). Or, it gets assault 2.

 

Bikes are re-priced in line with space marine bikes.

 

Restrictions placed on 'mercenary' units, e.g. Obliterators, Raptors.

 

In my opinion, we can leave the sticky question about 'real' daemons out. It's too much to expect from a band-aid update. And anyway, god-specific daemons wouldn't really add to cult marines' tactical flexibility, they largely just replicate what the marines already do: bloodletters slaughter stuff in CC, plague bearers stand around and don't die, etc.

[Spacefrisian]

If you ask me, they should drop the idea of a Seperate Deamon codex and add it to the next Chaos dex. And if they are at it they should add Big mutants, traitorguard/ mutants and Basilisks to it.

 

This would already allow several different builds.

[Nicili]

All I would like is the customization back! I feel the new codex is so cut and dry for Black Legion.

 

I don't want overly special rules to make the C:CSM all awe-inspiring, I just miss the legions and themed armies. I feel alot of the uniqueness of Chaos groups was lost with the new codex.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Wha

tever you think about the merits of v3.5, it's not coming back.

 

On the other hand, what 3.5 did for 3.0 is a very good example of what needs to happen to 4.0.

[Moress]

I'm in, how can I help?

[Chimerical]

Sign a letter. Or, even better, write your own letter.

 

Make it short and sweet.

 

This will be what I do:

 

Mention latest rumours about C:Chaos Legions stalling before it has even started, and how this is dismaying after Jervis' earlier comments about the possibility.

 

Don't whinge about not being able to compete at tournaments with my old army. Don't whinge about the toys that other armies get. Don't whinge about how the absurd point costings in C:CSM. Focus rather on how I feel my army has been invalidated because it's nigh-impossible to create a well-rounded pure cult force (except for Nurgle), that it's merely a paint scheme, and that I feel it goes against GW's general policy of not invalidating armies that people have put lots of work into creating and are invested in. That this is really surprising to me because Chaos is a major faction in the game, always has been, not like LatD etc. They deserve better.

 

Describe the difficulties in creating 'house rules', and how it's not just an issue for tournaments but pick-up games with people at stores etc.

 

Say I would support a WD list, ala Blood Angels, using only units from the C:CSM, but with a little added flexibility - troop access to special weapons, non-troop choice per-model marking system rather than icons. More than this would be an appreciated bonus (e.g. Do-over of dreadnaughts, re-cost bikes), fluffy restrictions (e.g. no Plague Marine bikers/raptors). Say I think this sort of gesture would improve GW's image with their core community, their apparent lack of responsiveness to the customers.

[Brother Hadafix]

@ Moress: A letter for everyone to use will be put up in here in the next week or so. It is one that I am hoping everyone will use as it is better to speak with one voice, than lots of voices. It also means that if one person gets a reply we all get one.

 

All that need to be done once the letter is up is to agree a sending date, its better if these arrive as closes to each other as possible, maximum impact. Those that miss the date will be encouraged to send one anyway, more the better.

 

And a letter is in production, and I think so far it catches peoples point of view.

 

The big problem with this is of course logistics, a letter from London will get there (probably) faster than a letter from Frankfurt or Ohio. This needs to be adressed, so once a date is set for sending, make sure your letter can get there 4 days from that date (average RM time to deliver first class mail) That is why I have set a target to have these sent on the 1st August.

 

If people need something something to do in the mean time, get more people involved! I am sure that some of you must have friends that play chaos, or are bord of playing against your optimised list that is the only one your able to beat them with. I think we are getting close to 40 in number, which is more than I expected, but less than I hoped for.

[Cyresh]

Sign a letter. Or, even better, write your own letter.

 

Make it short and sweet.

 

This will be what I do:

 

Mention latest rumours about C:Chaos Legions stalling before it has even started, and how this is dismaying after Jervis' earlier comments about the possibility.

 

Don't whinge about not being able to compete at tournaments with my old army. Don't whinge about the toys that other armies get. Don't whinge about how the absurd point costings in C:CSM. Focus rather on how I feel my army has been invalidated because it's nigh-impossible to create a well-rounded pure cult force (except for Nurgle), that it's merely a paint scheme, and that I feel it goes against GW's general policy of not invalidating armies that people have put lots of work into creating and are invested in. That this is really surprising to me because Chaos is a major faction in the game, always has been, not like LatD etc. They deserve better.

 

Describe the difficulties in creating 'house rules', and how it's not just an issue for tournaments but pick-up games with people at stores etc.

 

Say I would support a WD list, ala Blood Angels, using only units from the C:CSM, but with a little added flexibility - troop access to special weapons, non-troop choice per-model marking system rather than icons. More than this would be an appreciated bonus (e.g. Do-over of dreadnaughts, re-cost bikes), fluffy restrictions (e.g. no Plague Marine bikers/raptors). Say I think this sort of gesture would improve GW's image with their core community, their apparent lack of responsiveness to the customers.

 

I agree with the way you are going with this. Wd lists for legions would be a viable solution... If they gave us some new fluff to the legions (like a page or 2) to sweeten the deal we would have a sweeter version of the index. needless to say this would win gw back the many legions fans as well as get many new ppl to join the ranks of chaos :) Either way you have my full support on the matter, lets just see this through to the end

[Legatus]

Wait, I think here is the problem.

World Eaters, dedicated to Khorne, Beserkers extraordinary and the HTHiest army in 40k shouldn't have been restrictive? All the cults should be restricted, that is the point.

(...)

Playing the Emperor's Children as a siege or defense army isn't in line with their fluff. But I think you are pointing out a problem with 40k now adays. Fluff isn't important.

Or, maybe the player can decide to build a themed army out of the basic list, just as it is done now with Craftworlds or Codex Chapters (if someone does not play with special characters) or IG regiments. White Scars and Salamanders do not have their own list, Alaitoc and Biel-Tan do not have their own list, Catachans and Tallarns do not have their own list. Why should Night Lords or World Eaters get one, when you can build appropriate armies from the basic list?

 

Special lists for every slightly divergent armies are cool, but that's not how the current generation of Codices are built. And I for one can cope with painting Eldar blue, using a few ranger squads and calling them "Alaitoc", or painting my Chaos Marines black, emphasizing decisive strikes, and calling them "Night Lords". Jut like someone could paint his Marines green, use mainly flamers and meltaguns and call them "Salamanders".

 

Why do I still say that after your previous answers (snipped for speed), because my Elites are less dedicated then my Troops, and my elites can't take the same upgrades as my troops. So for Slaanesh, I can have Noise Marine Troops, but once promoted to Elite they loose fearless, the extra attack (native) and can't carry sonic weapons, but hey I can take beserkers now! That isn't even in the realm of following the fluff.

On the one hand, remember how in some codices the elite choices were made troops, while some troops became elite choices (such as biel-tan craftworld rules). So you could say that the troops berserkers are actually some of the more dedicated units of your all khorne force.

Terminators, while actually a lot more devastating than Berserkers, are maybe under closer scrutiny by their deity, and if they screw up they might be punished for that. More on that later.

 

Ok, so how do I make Noise Marine Terminators, or Noise marine bikes?

They will just be Slaanesh Terminators and Slaanesh Bikes.

 

How do I make my Terminators as blood thirsty as my Troops?

By giving them three basic attacks, all with power weapons or powerfists, instead of the 2 basic attacks the Berserkers have.

 

How do I make my elites as dedicated as my troops?

The lack of fearlessnes bothers me as well. But on the other hand, a Khorne Terminator squads is still one of the most destructive units you can have. Not as powerful as Slaanesh Terminators, unfortunately.

 

And not one of them driven to hth combat.

Just like Berserkers have no such rule. or what are you trying to say?

 

How do my Havoc squad will all flamers and bolters represent the heavy elements of a noise marine army per the fluff.

Feel free to use other weapons than flamers for your Emperor's Children Havocs. They will not be Noise Marines though. THis is one of teh examples where the more dedicated Emperor's Children, the Noise Marines, are a Troops choice, while the EC havocs are not quite as hardcore.

 

I like my smaller (because of cost) and harder (because of upgrades), and elite (tougher and all around better equipped) Emperor's Children. And they stand out.

Now they are just Emperor's children painted chaos marines. The army can be called Emperor's Children, or "bob's army" for all it matters, and all the limitations and advantages those limitations give it.

An all Slaanesh army with heavy emphasis on Noise Marines for their troops will be more expensive and all that. All you units will have the Mark of Slaanesh, so it adequately represents an Emperor's Chidlren army. What changed is that a Mark will not automatically make the Marine fearless, and Marks can now be lost over the course of the game.

 

Fluffly?

A marine dedicated to slaanesh since the Heresy gets the disfavor of Slaanesh (cause they are elite) when the icon hits the ground?

Fluffy?

The Legiosn do get new Members IIRC. And it is not so much "the icon being dropped" that incites the punishment by their deity, it is more an act that would disappoint the deity, the unit underperforming, for example, which in game terms is represented by the Icon Bearer being killed.

 

The Chaos gods punishing their followers for not performing is quite fluffy indeed. They are not immediately turned into a spawn or their soul sucked into the warp, but they will, even if that may only be temporarily for the rest of the battle, lose the empowering favour of their god.

 

No, sorry, the sublist system was the original way. Take a look at the Slaves to darkness, and the lost and the damned books. Darn good books filled with lots of fluff. And they set the tone. The simpler books of 2nd, and the pamphlet of 3.0 and the reprint of 2nd we call 4th. . .

 

So take a look at the RT era books, they came first .

RT established a lot of things that were dropped when 2nd Edition was developed. 2nd Edition brought the "Codex" format, instead of army lists being published inWhite Dwarfs or later in compilations or source books. In RT it was custom that a source book would contain different army lists for specific factions. There were different Lists for different Clans in "Ere We Go" as well. 2nd Edition brought basic lists inside a Codex that could be used for different armies. During 3rd there was a developement to make sub lists for all kind of different forces, for IG, Eldar, Orks, Marines, Chaos Marines and even Tyranids. Some of those lists persisted into 4th Edition, but the Codices over the last few years have dropped that system again. If you demand special lists for every Legion, you have got to understand that you are asking GW for something that the other Codex armies like Marines, Eldar, Orks and Imperial Guard have been denied, and that Chaos is not treated any different than those other armies in this respect.

[Cyresh]

Thing is that space marines get chapter specific lists (with space wilves in the way) so why shouldnt we ? besides i believe that different chaos legions have more individuality than lets say different ig regiments. Furthermore we dont want a codex for every legion, we want wd lists similar to the index astartes and maybe 1 legion codex eventually.

[Legatus]

If GW would publish a cult legion Codex that would be fine by me. I can just not understand the attitude that you cannot do anything with the current Chaos Codex and Chaos should be more entiteled to different Lists than Craftworlds.

[Brother Hadafix]

Ok, Chaos Lord Shamrockius has gotten back to me, and a letter is basically ready. Just waiting for any late comers and will have the letter up on friday. If please get as many as you can involved, and try to stay at the same pace as this is going. Get your talk your gran in to send one if need be. ;) This wont work so well though if people start going it alone.

 

@ Legatus: A paint scheme does not a dedicated legion make. Its not like Abbadon went and wrote a little book for all CSM to follow, like some tratorus guy in blue did for the loyalists. (not the place to go in to that in detail and it has all been said before.)

 

The Legions used to follow there Primarchs example, now they seem to all follow BLs example. GW got things near enough right in 3.5, as is the majority concensus in this topic alone, 4.0 being a something best swept under a spawn were noone will notice it, thats not to say that it cant be fixed.

[Legatus]

@ Legatus: A paint scheme does not a dedicated legion make.

Taking only a certain selection of units into your army does.

 

As a World Eaters player, I was not really thrilled about the 3.5 Codex that basically represented World Eater armies by taking 80% of the choices away. The "special rules" for a World Eaters force were so negligible that they were pointless, and a Black Legion or undicided force could take everything the World Eaters could have, but with all the other 80% choices in addition. Whether the book tells you that you can only take 20% of the choices to play World Eaters, or whether you decide for yourself that you want to play World Eaters and thus limit yourself to the appropriate choices does not make a big difference to me.

 

That not all World Eaters choices are fearless and some may lose their bonus attacks is a problem I can understand, but it is something I can come to terms with. I guess if the World Eaters were my only army then I might be much more dismayed, but as it is, if I want to play Night Lords, I only take undivided, if I want to play World Eaters, I only take Khorne.

[Cyresh]

If GW would publish a cult legion Codex that would be fine by me. I can just not understand the attitude that you cannot do anything with the current Chaos Codex and Chaos should be more entiteled to different Lists than Craftworlds.

then why should smurfsbe entitled to special treatment ? And im not saying that you cannot anything with this codex, as a matter of fact my Word bearers army works pretty good:) altho im not a tournament player (my list wouldnt stand much chance in tournaments) for casual games just for fun it works rather well:)

[Legatus]

I guess for the big four Chapters it is just tradition. The irony here is that a lot of DA (and possibly BA) players would much rather use the Codex Space Marines. ;)

 

(I assume the Codex Space Wolves will remove the armoury and increase special ccw costs as well, and I wonder what we will hear from the Space Wolves camp about that.)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Brother Hadafix Posted Today, 03:03 PM

Ok, Chaos Lord Shamrockius has gotten back to me, and a letter is basically ready. Just waiting for any late comers and will have the letter up on friday.

 

Any chance you could get it up sooner? I'm out of the country for just over a week from that day, and I'd quite like to give the letter the once-over before I go. Would that be OK with you?

[Chimerical]

I'm not sure the mass letter is the right way, unless it really is sent on a mass scale, like, say, one hundred people. But it's a bit like signing a petition, it's easy, anyone can do it in a couple minutes. GW will not read them all, they'll just vaguely note the number, shrug.

 

I think a heap of short, thoughtful, individually composed letters is more likely to get someones attention. It shows greater commitment on behalf of the multiple writers, as opposed to just the couple people organising the mass letter.

 

Just my 2 cents. I'll be writing my own.

[Raven Angel]

The point of doing on letter is that they only have to read it once and then look at how many came in. And the traitor legions are more then just tradition. They are the only reason we loyalists have space marines in the first place. Besides they said the reason for that books was to put the CSM up as equals in treatment to SM in a codex. Obviously most of us don't think they got close.

 

On the letter are we just adding our name to the basic document and mailing or do we personalise it a bit?

[incinerator950]

Our focus should be on what we can do with the current codex with a few tweaks to make the legions playable as a well-rounded force.

 

Not to be an ass but we've been trying that repeatedly, all we get are ruffly the same lists of Merged Cult armies led by 2 Demon Princes, and anything else is argued to be handicapped or a casual fun army.

 

It's even funnier because the Loyalist players are now complaining about seeing the same Lash Armies when they go out to play.

 

On the letter are we just adding our name to the basic document and mailing or do we personalise it a bit?

 

I think personalizing would help give out ideas, as well as make it look like a marginal percentage of us copypasta this, because I sure as hell can't write anything creative.

[Brother Hadafix]

Thank you Raven Angel, you have the point spot on. We still dont know if Warseer or BoLS has taken an interest in this as yet so we cant judge how many people will be on board.

 

GMT: Will get that to you asap. You think you can hold on sending it intill the rest of us do, or get a friend to post it in the day? You have been with this since the start and have a place in the Librarium so I guess you can be trusted.

 

If people will to add anything to the letter, do so after the main body, I dont think anything has not been said in it that needs saying.

 

Please, if you are not with this then there is no need to post here. If it continues I will ask a Mod to intervene.