Complaining about the C:CSM

[Cyresh]

i woudlnt call the warhammer hobbies as casual as you state it to be, Confrontation has become waaay more casual since they switched to pre painted minis. Now the day that gw does that i quit forever:P

As for the letters i believe there is nothing wrong in trying to get the message through to gw this way:) i mean it will either work or it wont, but i think that we could follow this up by sending some emails to, this way we have more then one way to get the message through

[Brother Hadafix]

Well, if this doesnt work then if someone is up for carrying the mantle, a letter to the board maybe the way to go. However, while I am putting energy in to this, my BT are not getting any attention, so once this is done, and a few weeks have gone since the last of the letters are sent, replies or no, I will be going back to them.

 

Would be happy to help keep up the pressure though, as I may return to Chaos if its given life and flavour again.

[IronWinds]

As divided as Chaos is... we will unite for certain things, especially the legions. The 14th Black Crusade: Storm of GW Headquarters.... the original 9 wanted to let you know we are still here.

 

On the other hand, it does not hurt to buy 1 share and show up at the stockholders' meeting to give them face to face feedback.

 

As much as I would love to... I'm not crossing the Atlantic to do it. That's a job someone in the UK will have to do.

 

 

 

Oh yeah, I once thought that I should buy a large portion of GW stocks to have a say in the running of their company, but I want to make money. biggrin.gif

 

If you bought it a few years back you actually would have made money, but it was fairly risky then. Price/earnings ratios weren't even working because the company had negative earnings, that makes it a little bit harder to value a company. Now if its price earnings ratio came back down to 30 or lower I would go for it, but I'm not a fan of anything near 40. That's high for financial and tech firms... yet alone a hobby game.

Now the day that gw does that i quit forever:P

 

Unlike some other companies GW makes money on supplies and paint, not to mention how many people prefer painting and modeling to actual play. I don't think it will be an issue with GW. They are like Kodak 15 years ago, everyone else was switching to digital, but a lot of their income came from the picture printing side of the business so they had to stick with it. GW is like that with its extensive painting and modeling areas. BUT the move to digital was unstoppable, the painting of your minis is in 'our' control ;) . Keep buying paint.... and of course get onto players who don't paint their armies. Since GW stopped selling individual bits, whole companies have sprung up that do nothing but buy box sets in bulk and then resell the bits on ebay, I say demand is still strong enough to keep the minis unpainted.

 

 

And Hadafax has a point about something else that is a huge issue. Chaos is hurt by this 'codex' if you call it that. But several armies need updates just pertaining to 5th edition, why we don't have them.... but we can get a big planet strike book? GKs need teleport homer fixes as they now are more dangerous than not using the homer, BTS apparently have issues with their pre-game options(preferred enemy... got a lot better for instance), necrons need a guass weapon rule fix considering the new glancing rules. Necrons are actaully my other army, can't play them because their ability to take out a tank has been reduced to heavy destroyers and C'tan.... What good is auto glancing if glancing can't kill anything but an ork buggy? My third army.. LatD, yea.... Chaos is my backup army now ;) . The one thing I would wait on GW to fix before us... Dark Eldar, they have been needing a new codex for a very long time.

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

Good point. Maybe we could amend the letter to include less codex creep. I am pretty sure if they released all the codexes of a new edition at the same time with the rulebook, and focus on marketing each one in turn, people would still buy them.

[refuse]

I wholeheartedly agree.

Those farts up at Games Workshop HQ are not going to listen to a handful of letters; they will not re-release the Codex, or even release an errata changing how the rules work.

The games developers are slaving away over Space Hulk (September!), Space Wolves (Yeah baby! October!!), and Dark Space Elves (Q1 or Q2 next year), they will never find enough time to correct the ‘mistakes’ in the current C:CSM. Never.

Just live with it and wait until the 5th or 6th Edition Codex is published, you should be thankful that you have a working Codex in the first place. Just look at the Inquisition Codices, I myself collect pure Grey Knights (as well as Death Guard and Dark Angels), and they will never see a new Codex.

Suck it up and continue with this wonderful hobby of ours without crying every time a new Codex is released.

Now I’m going to go play some Halo, I advise you do the same and stop fuming about something you have no control over...

Cheers :tu:

Steve

Right,

Cause there wasn't a 3.5 that fixed the 3.0, so there won't be a 4.5 that fixes 4.0.

 

Remember, since I pay for this hobby, my choices are

1) Don't buy what I don't like. Let my money talk

2) Communicate my disappointment and don't buy the products (my current choice)

3) Suck it up and keep funding the company even when they do things I don't like.

 

I have control over everything I set my mind to. Through action and in-action. Supporting them doing things I disagree with seems, odd. Passive and quite unnerving to me actually.

 

I guess I could just mail them money, and you know, live with it.

[Prot]

That's very true refuse.

 

I hate to admit it, but if I'm being honest... well I'm a sucker. I even left Chaos entirely for a while and just played Eldar, and then IG. I really missed Chaos, missed being the bad guy at tournaments... missed wearing the Black Hat and representing the bad guys.

 

So I guess I came back a while ago and tried about 4 different armies and kept quitting them in disinterest and disgust, to be honest. But here I am again with Red Corsairs this time, trying to make peace with the steaming pile that is our codex.

 

It seems like yesterday the Chaos section of the BnC was a very tight community that argued about how strong Oblits were. LOL. I miss those days, and I guess that makes me a sentimental sucker.

[refuse]

Unlike some other companies GW makes money on supplies and paint, not to mention how many people prefer painting and modeling to actual play. I don't think it will be an issue with GW. They are like Kodak 15 years ago, everyone else was switching to digital, but a lot of their income came from the picture printing side of the business so they had to stick with it. GW is like that with its extensive painting and modeling areas. BUT the move to digital was unstoppable, the painting of your minis is in 'our' control :tu: . Keep buying paint.... and of course get onto players who don't paint their armies. Since GW stopped selling individual bits, whole companies have sprung up that do nothing but buy box sets in bulk and then resell the bits on ebay, I say demand is still strong enough to keep the minis unpainted.

Some stuff about Kodak and polaroid.

 

They need to keep their fan base happy. Pushing this to the 12 year old (easy rules) for mass appeal, while still requiring massive investment (painting, board construction, assembly) seems contrary.

 

My 10 year old and 7 year old play Heroscape and AT-43 with me, as the models come pre-assembled and painted. I pick up units they may want as they are done and ready when we get home. The 40k stuff they use is "old, 2nd edition models" I still have laying around. The thought of buying a Land Raider ($50) for them to assemble and paint and play in about 2-3 weeks doesn't seem as valuable. It is a good idea for building long term projects and developing their commitment levels, but $50 for potential use, or buying another AT-43 unit and playing it as soon as we get home. . .

 

Also, as the main armies I have (LatD and Emperor's Children) are invalid (without alot of purchases, and assembly and painting and "count as") I don't see it as useful to support GW. Why? Even after playing since RT era? Because I think they lost their understanding of what they are.

 

They are a niche market. i.e. I bought sonic blasters (as you mention) for my emp children ($1 each), EC shoulder pads ($.75 each), special helmets and matching back packs (lots of boxes of CSM to get the matching ones I wanted) + FW bits for vehicles, and other bits to spice up the models.

 

And my LatD

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...ling:4th_Cohort

An army of light infantry (when i could take that). So this means you would need to spend $150 for 40 Minis in accessories (on average).

 

This isn't something I see supporting when it is targeted at a demographic that I am not in (light rules that aren't that good, with minimal complexity). I can accomplish the same with AT-43, Heroscape and others that are more prevalent (I can get in Walmart or general hobby stores) and are useable out of the box.

 

I think the understanding that Kodak is supporting it's niche with quality and customer service, meeting the needs of the customers (i.e. providing a pricey product (non-digital) for people that are willing to buy it) says alot. GW is off making sweeping changes, changing it's demographic, raising it's prices and "streamlining" it's rules. All of this is contrary to the core group from RT era. As a person who use to spend $200 a month on GW, I am dissatisfied, and have mailed the letter to GW. If they listen, great. If not, then they have proven that they don't care about a core demographic, and I feel satisfied.

 

With 4 out of 5 game stores selling GW (including 2 GW stores) closing near me, it seems to justify my feeling that I am not alone in not liking GW's policies, practices and current methodologies. Do I want to see GW go the way of FASA and many other games companies I have played over the years? Nope. But will I support them as they turn their backs on my demographic (42 years old, played for 20+ years and like to invest in "custom"/expensive/mine armies that are fun to play and competitive in a tournament as well as supported in tournaments).

 

Others will (and have) said, be thankful. Sorry, as a consumer I am thankful by supporting what I like by purchasing what I like. I am never thankful that companies produce a product. I am willing to pay what value I consider valid for that product. That is basic business. But to thank a company for turning away, nope.

 

Letter sent, response awaited.

 

Oh, and Polaroid is out of business. They switched to a new market (badges and such) and didn't think about the competition, or the customers they were angering by dropping the product lines that had been their life blood for years. I know alot of good engineers that lost their jobs, because the company "was changing it's core direction".

[refuse]

That's very true refuse.

 

I hate to admit it, but if I'm being honest... well I'm a sucker. I even left Chaos entirely for a while and just played Eldar, and then IG. I really missed Chaos, missed being the bad guy at tournaments... missed wearing the Black Hat and representing the bad guys.

 

So I guess I came back a while ago and tried about 4 different armies and kept quitting them in disinterest and disgust, to be honest. But here I am again with Red Corsairs this time, trying to make peace with the steaming pile that is our codex.

 

It seems like yesterday the Chaos section of the BnC was a very tight community that argued about how strong Oblits were. LOL. I miss those days, and I guess that makes me a sentimental sucker.

Prot,

:tu: Hey I lived through 2nd, and 3.0 of third. So I know your pain.

I built a Grey Knights (per the RT rules) in 3rd when my legion had become, well what it is now again.

I built the Emperorschildren.net to keep my interest up in the EC when 3.0 was around, and to support the people that still loved EC when the White Dwarf article let us build them again (the IA articles which they don't do anymore).

I built the wiki when FW started putting out Chaos Legion stuff.

And I was rewarded with the 3.5 codex, and got back into the hobby with both feet. Including the Lord Commander's database, a new EC army based on 3.5 and even building a LatD army, an IF army and expanding my Daemon army (Slaanesh). As well as purchasing a bunch of other cool stuff (Tau, Necron, Dark Eldar) cause I was hyped by the ability to play my favorite army (EC) in a very stylish way.

 

Then 4.0.

And to be honest, I don't even post on EC.net that much anymore. Cenobite runs the site for me, and I just kind of pay the bills. Honestly, I still pay for a site for an army I can't bring myself to take off the shelf, nor purchase the codex (I haven't bought 4.0 CSM as I won't support it, only read the store's version).

And I can't even find the motivation to keep the motivation up. I resigned as a mod here (I can't in all honesty help people build chaos based on the current codex).

 

But I still come to the B&C, waiting to see which breaks first. My tolerence of the "count as"/"live with it"/"blind acceptance" or GW's pokechaosdex breaks first.

 

Ah well, 3 posts in a day. I must be bored.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I'm not a Chaos player myself, but the person I play the most against is... when you stack the Chaos 'dex up to the SM 'dex, it really makes you wonder where they wanted to go with it. Did they know what they were doing, really? The power shift aside, the loss of customization is pretty significant. Alpha Legion players lost their cultists, Word Bearers their chaplains (heck, the Word Bearers barely mentioned in the codex at all.. what do they have, one picture with a few of them in it?).

I can see why Chaos players would be very dissatisfied with this codex... all I can say is that I hope that you get your letters to the right people. Even if the letters don't make a change now, if the right people read them they might influence opinions in the future.

 

and Dark Space Elves (Q1 or Q2 next year)

Off-topic, but this is incorrect, time-wise, according to the rumors we have to work with off of Warseer and GD Spain.

[Hellios]

How would you feel if they released a forces of the imperium book for £50, forces of Chaos book for £50 and a Xenos book for £50 (or essentially just over 3 times the cost of the current codex) That way more armies would be released together and should reduce the amount of codex creep a bit as the armies would be more balanced compared to each other. I'm not saying GW would ever do this but if they did how would you feel about it? even if it say took two years between each book to be released? (although they could be done more quickly)

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

How would you feel if they released a forces of the imperium book for £50, forces of Chaos book for £50 and a Xenos book for £50 (or essentially just over 3 times the cost of the current codex) That way more armies would be released together and should reduce the amount of codex creep a bit as the armies would be more balanced compared to each other. I'm not saying GW would ever do this but if they did how would you feel about it? even if it say took two years between each book to be released? (although they could be done more quickly)

 

It would not even need to be concentrated. What they need is to figure out a structure. I would support the following:

 

1. One new edition update each 6 year period.

2. Each edition comes with codexes for each army, specifying which edition rulebook they are meant for.

3. Regular FAQs and IA articles to support or modify every 2 years or so (if needed).

4. Please playtest each army at least 100 times. You have 6 years to do that.

 

I can dream, can't I?

[refuse]

How would you feel if they released a forces of the imperium book for £50, forces of Chaos book for £50 and a Xenos book for £50 (or essentially just over 3 times the cost of the current codex) That way more armies would be released together and should reduce the amount of codex creep a bit as the armies would be more balanced compared to each other. I'm not saying GW would ever do this but if they did how would you feel about it? even if it say took two years between each book to be released? (although they could be done more quickly)

Me?

I would be good.

I own most of the FW books, City Fight, the IA books (Battle for Armegeddon), and the full Chaos Libera series (each book) as well as the bigger book.

Now for £50 (about $100 US), it better be a great book. i.e. worth the money. As it is 2x the starter, and more. But they did stuff like this in 2nd, buy selling you expansions and more. $100 is > the the incidental purchase limit I usually spend. i.e. it is 1/2 an iPod 8 gig, so it better be good for 4 years or so. But to be fair, I bought Slaves to Darkness (3 or 4 times, and sold it just as many) and they were expensive at the time. So I would have to say I would probably do it.

 

Though maybe, a Imperial Marine (Founding chapters, special chapters (Grey Knights), Death Watchand other chapters (BT)) would be good for $50. Then Imperial Armies (IG, SoB, and cover armored formations, drop troops, air mobile). Chaos (Founding chapters, cult armies, LatD, Daemon armies). Xenos (Eldar, Necron, Tyranid, Ork, Demurge, Dark Eldar) might be better at $50. That way they get about the same revenue, but it is < then the normal $50 incidental purchase (the price of a video game).

[IronWinds]

Good point. Maybe we could amend the letter to include less codex creep. I am pretty sure if they released all the codexes of a new edition at the same time with the rulebook, and focus on marketing each one in turn, people would still buy them.

 

Or... I'm thinking back to the days when they had a chapter approved. Fixed things, clarified things, had a couple rules you could play with, etc. A chapter approved could include rules fixes for the armies that need them, and as some fun lists to throw in... simple legion rules, and LatD rules. Maybe throw in an additional unit for each army. Necrons could use a new anti tank unit about now, and GW could profit by selling new minis and chapter approved as if it was a new codex.... but instead it is like a bandade on all the codex's to help them along till a codex comes.

 

 

1. One new edition update each 6 year period.

2. Each edition comes with codexes for each army, specifying which edition rulebook they are meant for.

3. Regular FAQs and IA articles to support or modify every 2 years or so (if needed).

4. Please playtest each army at least 100 times. You have 6 years to do that.

 

They wouldn't do that because every 6 years they would have huge revenue then be creeping along for 5. But a chapter approved or erratas that come out with the new big book, or right after to fix the obvious flaws in armies that come up wouldn't hurt. They did it with 4th, why not now? Every 6 years update big book, and release fixes for armies. Then every 3 months(their stated goal) they release a new codex.

 

One thing I think could help with play testing... have a big event that people have to pay to go to, or that only employees can go to, where you let them play test the army. Give them already written lists, and rules to keep pts values still hidden but give an idea what each squad costs so people can judge... is this even viable? Let them duke it out with the list and see what they like don't like. If a unit is hated by everyone... possessed/dreadnoughts you can fix it before pissing off the entire community for that race. New codex's wouldn't be such a surprise to players, and our reactions wouldn't be such a surprise to GW.

 

Though maybe, a Imperial Marine (Founding chapters, special chapters (Grey Knights), Death Watchand other chapters (BT)) would be good for $50. Then Imperial Armies (IG, SoB, and cover armored formations, drop troops, air mobile). Chaos (Founding chapters, cult armies, LatD, Daemon armies).

 

I would buy it. These would encourage players to stick with one given area though. I for instance would probably stop playing necrons, why pay 50 for a book for one army, when my other armies all use the chaos book? Which kind of makes sense, you would see people playing armies that can all work together in apoc games. Chaos players having some marines, some mutants, and some demons. And while not all aliens can work together most of the armies could take kroot mercs. Give tyranids and necrons mind controlling units(didn't they create the enslavers?) that allows them to field one other unit from another codex so your not spending $50 on a codex for just one army.

[Spreader]

Letter mailed from Canada (hope it helps). My undivided army got smashed by the Eldar yesterday as well.

[ChaosReigns]

I'm going to be sending a letter as well (although I think I'm too late to send your letter, I'm going to compose one of my own, being as polite and logical as possible of course). It's far better than arguing against the naysayers until I'm blue in the face on Warseer. At least Games Workshop will see this.

 

Anyway, on that note, I must apologize Hadafix, for being dragged off topic on Warseer and getting embroiled in the fight instead of addressing the matter of your letter.

 

Here's hoping something good comes of this.

[Brother Hadafix]

I'm going to be sending a letter as well (although I think I'm too late to send your letter, I'm going to compose one of my own, being as polite and logical as possible of course). It's far better than arguing against the naysayers until I'm blue in the face on Warseer. At least Games Workshop will see this.

 

Anyway, on that note, I must apologize Hadafix, for being dragged off topic on Warseer and getting embroiled in the fight instead of addressing the matter of your letter.

 

Here's hoping something good comes of this.

 

The thread got mauled to bits, bloody trolls! I think with the opposition on Warseer, it was going to be torn off topic, its not liked the mods there were any good.

 

If your outside the UK you may have missed it, otherwise your still good. Sending your own is also good, just as long as you post your reply on here if its asking the same thing.

 

Those that are in the EU (barring UK) send today, or Monday! More the better, send your own if you want.

[Dreachon]

Me and a couple of friends will be sending our own letters this, I'll post any replies we might get from GW.

[Raven Angel]

Real life got in my way but it will go out monday. Might be a day or too behind but it will get there. Have a little faith guys. A good solid reminder of where the money is to be found should get some real attention in this economy. After all they don't want to be unemploied any more then we want to stop playing.

[Brother Hadafix]

Real life got in my way but it will go out monday. Might be a day or too behind but it will get there. Have a little faith guys. A good solid reminder of where the money is to be found should get some real attention in this economy. After all they don't want to be unemploied any more then we want to stop playing.

 

QFT

[incinerator950]

I'm getting the mail ready, sorry I've been real busy lately.

 

Edit: I'm writing my own letter.

[Brother Hadafix]

For those in the UK, Tuesday is the sending date. Dont forget!

 

I wonder if GW have already read this and are ready with a shredder and a load of letters to send to all?

[Dammeron]

For those in the UK, Tuesday is the sending date. Dont forget!

 

I wonder if GW have already read this and are ready with a shredder and a load of letters to send to all?

 

Letter written, sealed and ready to go.

[Cam2Designs]

I just wrote an email today to GW and I am sure it got "lost in the Warp". However, I've just played with the current codex and with 4th ed and now 5th ed rules, so my perspective is primarily based on how CSM matches up with SM. The Space Marines get way too much stuff, IMO. They get three variations of Dread, Landspeeders, Attack Bikes, Scouts, Razorbacks, Techmarines, Power of the Machine Spirit, Apothecaries, Drop Pods, and I am sure that I am leaving off some important things. Named Characters I shall never use...they are too restrictive and not in line with my army's feel/fluff. Using them as a template for my own creation is better, but still crappy. It's like GW is dumbing down the game to increase it's appeal to the masses. Bottom line for me is that there should be a lot more vehicles and equipment that CSM can use from the SM arsenal considering they were once space marines themselves.

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

It's like GW is dumbing down the game to increase it's appeal to the masses.

They are. They want to make the game more mainstream. I personally am looking forward to the next edition, whenever that may be.

[Dammeron]

It's like GW is dumbing down the game to increase it's appeal to the masses.

They are. They want to make the game more mainstream. I personally am looking forward to the next edition, whenever that may be.

 

 

Which is, of course, a profound mistake. hobbies such as Warhammer/40K are never going to be mainstream; they are cult by nature, especially when one considers they compete with much more immediately gratifying fair such as computer games. By dumbing down the game, what they are effectively doing is alienating those who would be more consistent customers, i.e. the dedicated "cult" fan base who have allowed the game(s) to survive and progress to their current state. IMO, rather than attempting to artificially expand its market, GW would be better off consolidating the one it already has and doing its damndest to ensure that it maintains their enthusiasm. Speaking personally, I've been playing FB and 40K since the late '80s, and have spent not only a great deal of money but invested a significant amount of creative energy in the hobby. This is the first instance in all that time where I have said: forget it, what I am expending on the hobby isn't being returned anymore. Even with the drear 3rd edition codex there was at least some suggestion that they were willing to fix the mistakes made (with errata and Index Astartes articles). This time around, it seems the company is being far more intransigent, and I for one am getting to the point where I will be leaving it behind entirely very, very shortly if we do not see some meaningful sign that the situation has been acknowledged and that something is being done to rectify it.