Daemons vs Blood Angels

[Retalitus]

Hey folks, got a game coming up against a Blood Angel army this week, and I'm looking for help!

 

Now, I've played vanilla Space Marines many times, but have never faced a Blood Angels force before. I haven't had a chance to properly look through the codex, and doubt whether I'll get an opportunity to do so before my game, so any tips you folks can provide would be appreciated. I know they are very much assault-based, and whilst I recognise a lot of what I'll be up against (tac, devastator and assault squads, etc), here's what I'm unsure about:

 

Dante, Lord of the Blood Angels

Death Company

Venerable Dreadnaught (upgraded to Death Company)

 

This is a friendly tournament, so I've already got my Daemon army set. It's your basic 1850 Daemonzilla force, with a KoS and BT, 2 Nurgle and 1 Tzeentch DP, 3 squads of x7 PBs, x6 Fiends and x8 Flamers. Hopefully what I've got here will be able to face my foe!

[OwlandMoonGuy]

I’m an avid player of both armies and I can say with confidence that the BA player is going to have a hard time – no matter what kind of daemon army you bring. BA pay a premium for every trooper so they will have fewer numbers than an equivalent vanilla list. There are a few things to watch for but Daemons already have easy counters for BA’s significant strengths.

 

Death Company have 2 base attacks (+1 more with bolt pistol), rending, furious charge & feel no pain, 9/10 times they will be jump infantry. That makes for a nasty unit but rending is countered by your INV save. Take enough power weapons and that negates their FNP. Even if they get a charge on you, screen with units that can take it in stride – like Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, etc. and then counter charge with something that will mow them down with earnest, like Bloodletters.

 

Dante will grant all friendly models within 12” preferred enemy. Any enemy model within 6” will have their WS & BS reduced by 1. Nice but he’s underpowered stat-line wise compared to other IC’s in his price range. Also, he lacks Eternal Warrior so he also vulnerable to the instakill.

 

A Death Company, Venearble, Furioso dread is 145 pts and more if there are any other upgrades. It will have D3 extra attacks per turn but is no Iron Clad. Be sure to beat it up with your Monstrous Creature of choice and that will be it.

 

Otherwise they are marines. The only other point of note is that their Jump Infantry are Troop not Fast Attack and therefore Scoring. They might try to slip in a 5-man squad with a Power Fist as a last ditch objective grabbing tactic.

 

Please give us a batrep after the game. -OMG

[Retalitus]

Cheers OMG, much appreciated! Must say, I'm very much looking forward to taking on another assault-based army, that isn't a horde!

 

I've seen my opponents list, and there's not too much there that frightens me: a tac squad, two x10 assault squad, death company, Dante, a Dread in a drop pod, and for heavy support a vindie and a big devastator squad. Nothing my Daemons can't handle, I hope! The Death Company sound pretty hard. I'm already thinking of how to counter them with the units I have to hand in my list... I'm thinking a couple of my Nurgle DPs, or my x6 unit of Fiends, or either of my Greater Daemons will have no problem agianst them. I'll leave my x8 squad of Flamers to take on his tacs/assault marines, and the devastators. Very pleased to hear Dante doesn't have Eternal Warrior!

 

My game's tomorrow night, so I'll be sure to let you know how it went.

[djkest]

I have a feeling that I'll be running into a BA Dante / Corbulo list at the tournament in 2 weeks. I'm eager to hear how this goes for you.

[Retalitus]

OK, so I faced the Blood Angels last night, and I have to say it was one of the most entertaining fights I've had in a very long time! I'll give you a quick run-down of how it went, and some of my thoughts after the game. There are going to be some mistakes here, as I'm doing this from memory, and I'm seriously tired this morning (have yet to enjoy my first cup of coffee)!

 

We rolled for an objective-based game, with 4 objectives on the board, and pitched battle deployment. He made the roll, and forced me to go first. First turn, and I have a fantastic bit of luck. He's put a x10 Devastator squad in a bunker in his deployment area, with a small tac squad around the edge of the building. First unit I DS is my x8 strong unit of Flamers, right in front of the bunker - and I roll a hit on the scatter! My flamers then proceed to wipe out the entire Devastator squad, and all of the tac marines too! You should have seen the look on my opponents face - he was not happy!

 

Turn 1

My BT drops in safely, as do my first two PB squads, who are both now sitting on or close to the two objectives nearest my table edge. My final DS unit, a Tzeentch DP, also drops in safely behind some cover. Over to the BAs, and he puts a whole ton of shooting from an assault squad and death company into my Flamers - who survive! He sends forward another assault squad closer to one of my objectives, and also drop-pods his Furioso Dread in front of that objective too. My PBs there are able to survive the subsequent shooting though. He then assaults my Flamers with Dante and an assault squad - and, again to my amazement, they manage to survive, although now with only one left.

 

Turn 2

Back to me, and I bring on my Fiends, and the third and final unit of PBs, and the KoS. Nothing goes right with my DSing here. The KoS is misplaced, and my opponent sticks him in a corner of the board totally out of the way of any of the action. My PBs scatter very badly - tried to put them on an objective, but they scatter nearly 10 or so inches away, onto the otherside of a large piece of terrain that will take AGES for my PBs to get around to reach the objective. Finally, my Fiends drop in. Again, bad scatter, and they come in far too close to the Death Company and Dante/Assault Marines than I wanted. I move and run my Tzeentch DP next to the Fiends to provide some assistance. My Bloodthirster, supporting the PBs on one objective, moves up and ploughs into a lone Assault squad approaching one of my objectives. The BT is, annoyingly, unable to wipe out the squad, who stay in combat. Over to him, and it all goes wrong for me! His vindicator, which until now has just been moving, fires at my Fiends, but misses. His Death Company do the same on my Fiends, who take two wounds. Same thing happens with Dante/Assault Marines on my Tzeentch DP. His Dread has a go at one of my PB squad on an objective, who lose a couple. Then, his assault! My BT again, decimates the Assault Marines, who fall back with only 2 left. Down the same end of the table, his Dread assaults the PBs, and wipes them out. Death Company assault the Fiends, and totally decimate them, losing only a couple in return. Dante and his Assault Marines do the same on my Tzeentch DP, sending it back to the Warp.

 

Turn 3

Over to my Daemons again, and I successfully bring on my first Nurgle DP, in front of my objective-sitting PBs, facing the Death Company and Dante/AMs. KoS keeps moving/running, but is still too far away to threaten anything. My PB squad behind the terrain again move/run to get round it and get to the objective behind his Death Company. They don't move far though! I make a HUGE mistake now. Instead of making sure the retreating Assault Marines I'd attacked are finished off, I move my BT to attack his Vindicator. The Vindie had moved, so I wasn't able to successfully hit it. Nothing left to do, so it's over to my opponent, where the pain begins again! His Vindie fires unsuccessfully again. His Death Company and Assault Marines move forward and blast the Nurgle DP in front of them, taking a wound off of it, before both squads assault it, and banish it back to the warp. His Dread moves and runs towards my objective-sitting PBs. His 2 surviving Assault Marines now regroup (dammit!!!), and move toward the objective vacated by his Dread. Turn over.

 

Turn 4

Finally, my Nurgle DP rolls to join the game... then scatters badly and dies! Arrghh! After returning from going outside for a cigarette to calm myself down, I again get my KoS and PBs to move/run. The KoS is now in a position to assault his guys, finally! My BT, now too far away to reach the Assault Marines he'd left behind, continues forward to trap Dante and his assault marines. The KoS and BT both slam into the unit from either side, wiping it out, and killing Dante. Woohoo! Over to the Blood Angels, and his Dread continues to move forward, and can now threaten the PB squad on one of the my objectives. It fires on this squad, as does the Vindicator, but 3 of my PBs survive. His Death Company then shoots and ploughs into the other PB unit, who are now in reach of another objective. They manage to kill a few, but they remain locked in combat. His two surviving Assault marines now reach the objective and sit there, safely away from any of my Daemons. The Dread assaults my objective-sitting PBs, who again manage to survive.

 

Turn 5

My Greater Daemons, fresh from slaying Dante, now split up. The KoS goes to aid my PB's in combat with the Death Company, whilst my BT goes to help out the other PBs in combat with the Dreadnought. The KoS takes out a few of the Death Company, but a handful still remain. In return, the Death Company are able to take out a few more of my PBs. The PBs are unable to wound anything. The BT has no joy against the Dreadnought, failing to hit it to my utter fury. In return, the Dreadnought takes out all of the PBs left on that objective. Not looking good for me now.... Over to his turn, and the combat contines. He's got one objective tied up, and knows he now only has to finish off my last squad of PBs in combat with the Death Company. My KoS goes first, and kills several more Death Company, now leaving only a Chaplain and one marine. They in turn, attack the PBs, leaving only one remaining, who's attack back does nothing. The Dread and BT continue their combat, and I am able to knock to stun and immobilise it, but not destroy it. It takes a wound off my BT. He leaves his vindie where it is, as it has nothing to do now.

 

We then roll a 2 and the game ends!

 

So, what's left? On the Daemon side, we've got my two HQs and a single PB. The Blood Angels are left with the Chaplain and final member of the Death Company, 2 assault marines on an objective, and his vindie and Dreadnought. I've got no troop choices on any objectives, whilst he controls one. So, the result was a victory for him, but I did manage to take out his HQ and keep mine alive (the Bloodthirster), and we both failed to kill each others troop choices completely (although we both got close)so the score was 3-2 to the BAs (we're playing Adepticon rules / scoring in our friendly tournament). It was easily one of the bloodiest games I've fought, and great fun. Was disappointed not to have at least forced a draw, but the result was fair - I made mistakes, and the unpredictability of DSing cost me dearly.

 

So, what did I learn from this game? Well, the vital importance of getting the charge in against the Blood Angels. My Fiends and DPs were screwed when the Death Company and Dante/Assault Marines were able to get the charge. Dante's special rules didn't affect my Greater Daemons much, but the WS reduction was deadly to my Fiends. The Death Company, by getting the charge on my Fiends, were able to match them for initiative with Furious Charge, and their HUGE number of attacks meant the Fiends didn't stand a chance. If it was the Fiends doing the charging, I feel the result of the combat would have been a great deal different. This would have been less so with the DPs, but it may have helped. Dante's rules are unpleasant, but not overly so, and when a Greater Daemon got in combat with him it was game over for the Master of the Blood Angels. So, for your future game djkest, do EVERYTHING you can to ensure you don't let his Death Company get the charge on you.

 

I was very pleased with the perfomance of my Flamers. They were my star of the game, wiping out two enemy squads, particularly the Devastators who could have done a huge amount of damage to me. I DSed them boldly, and it paid off.

 

Well, I hope that was interesting reading for you folks! I seriously can't wait for a rematch against these guys, but now I've gotta prepare to take on the same Blood Angels army with my CSMs!

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Thanks for the report Ret. Sorry it wasn’t the outcome you (or anyone else in your position) wanted but I find it’s the games I lose that make me a better player.

 

Some thoughts based on what you’ve provided here:

Did you take any icons? I have my own rule of thumb when it comes to how many to take but I never hit the table without them. The scatter die is too fickle a mistress so I try to avoid it when at all possible. Seems like that was a significantly detracting factor in this game.

 

Soulgrinders w/Phlegm: Every wound taken by a S8, AP3 pie plate will insta-kill a marine w/no armor save; also negating the Death Company’s FNP roll. Also ideal for killing handfuls of massed Orks, Nids & Guard, (your infantry squad here).

 

More Troops: The Daemon army is such that there are so many great Elite, HQ & Heavy choices that it’s very tempting to skimp on Troops. And yet, Daemons have some of the hardest troop choices in the game. Many players like plaguebearers for their resilience but as you found here there are distinct counters and lack of mobility can be a big hindrance. You may want to reconsider Bloodletters. Though not as resilient they make it up in sheer brutality. Though unpopular, I also love my daemonettes.

 

There are lots of other comments I could make on breaking nasty assault units like the Death Company but they rely a lot on setting up a countercharge which brings us back to icons so I’ll leave it at that.

 

Thanks again for the report. Sounded like a great game. -OMG

[Retalitus]

Cheers for your comments OMG. It was a very fun game, and I guess that's why we all play 40k!

 

On the troop side of things, I've played 'Letters many times, and have had a fair bit of success with them. I love the models too, but to make them effective, I've found I need to have at least 15 - 20 of them in a unit, and that's a helluva lot of points relatively speaking. The size of the unit can make them difficult to DS, and I guess for this tournament, I just didn't fancy them doing well in enough games to justify their inclusion. If I was going up against mainly MEQ foes, I'd seriously consider them, but with the opponents I'm going to be facing, there were better things to spend the points on in my opinion. Haven't played Daemonettes, but will get round to trying them eventually!

 

Soulgrinders.... hmmm... they're a bit of a bugbear for me. I don't have the model (or anything to proxy it with, as I don't use Defilers in my CSM lists) so that's a problem straight away! I have used them several times in Vassal40k, without a great deal of success sadly. I find that my regular opponents have so much anti-tank weaponry (such as the Tau, Eldar, Vehicle-heavy Ultramarines, etc), that they go boom very quickly, and that my x3 DPs just generally perform better. Sure, against the BAs and Orks, a Soulgrinder or two would be seriously useful, but I just love my DPs too much!

 

As for Icons, well, this is tough. When I first started playing Daemons (which actually wasn't all that long ago really), I always went for them... and never used them! My troops that carried them were never where I wanted them to be to use the Icon, and as a lot of my offensive units are pretty mobile anyway (Winged or fleet DPs and HQs, Fiends, Flamers etc), I've often found it safer to DS them behind some cover. I guess I've just come to accept the risks that DSing carries. I am prepared to admit I'm wrong in not taking them though! Sadly, for the remainder of my tournament, which will take up the majority of my 40k games for the next couple of months, I'll have to go without them. However, I'll be sure to use them in my next Vassal40k game and see if I can improve upon my prior use of them. OMG - How many do you usually take in a 1500 - 1850 point list?

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Quick retort on the Bloodletters: I’ve often heard that you need to take them in >10 man squads but I run them in packs of 8 and they do just fine. Even for ‘Ard Boyz I took 3 squads of 10 at 2,500 pts and only in one game did I lose an entire squad. So my personal experience seems to run contrary.

 

As per number of icons it’s pretty well:

• >1.5K = 1
  
• 1.5 – 1.85K = 2
  
• 1.85+ = 3
  

I also split them up between the preferred and non-preferred incursion so I’m (pretty well) guaranteed to have one on the table come 2nd turn. I’m fairly head-shy when it comes to the risk of throwing away pricy units to the Mishap Table. The 25 – 75 pts is well worth it to me.

 

-OMG

[Retalitus]

I've only tried smaller units of Bloodletters a handful of times, and never with a great deal of success. However, I'm happy to admit that could well be down to my poor use of them! I'll try them again at the smaller unit level, and let everyone on the board know how I got on with them! From a fluff and visual point of view, they're one of my favourite units in 40k, so I'd like to learn how to play them better, and get the most out of them.

 

As for the Icons... well, it's food for thought. I'll be sure to throw some in my list in my next non-tournie game!

[minigun762]

I've only tried smaller units of Bloodletters a handful of times, and never with a great deal of success. However, I'm happy to admit that could well be down to my poor use of them! I'll try them again at the smaller unit level, and let everyone on the board know how I got on with them! From a fluff and visual point of view, they're one of my favourite units in 40k, so I'd like to learn how to play them better, and get the most out of them.

 

I'd imagine that 'Letters would need to be in an medium sized squad to be most effective. For me that means 8-12. The reasoning is that they're not particulary durable, but they're much better off then Daemonettes who almost always need 15+ models in a squad. The other benefit is that you only need a few 'Letters to survive to cause some real damage. Even 3 'Letters on the charge will typically kill 4 MEQs before they can strike. Too big and they become easy targets for pie plates and being tied up with walkers. Too small and you can gun them down before they hit you.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

The reasoning is that they're not particulary durable, but they're much better off then Daemonettes who almost always need 15+ models in a squad.

Really? I never run my daemonettes in squads larger than 10.

 

Personally I believe that a lot of these considerations boil down to playing style. -OMG

[minigun762]

The reasoning is that they're not particulary durable, but they're much better off then Daemonettes who almost always need 15+ models in a squad.

Really? I never run my daemonettes in squads larger than 10.

 

Personally I believe that a lot of these considerations boil down to playing style. -OMG

 

You don't find that you're giving up Killpoints too easily or only getting a neutered squad into close combat?

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Now, I could be wrong here but it seems sometimes questions like these have a very single dimensional view of the role of a particular unit; ie. the purpose of a close combat unit is to cross the table and get into combat, period, end of story. Daemonettes serve 2 key roles in my overall army tactic; 1) screen the larger force & 2) hold objectives. Both roles are served well because they are the cheapest among the Troop choices.

 

When screening, the enemy is more worried about the models immediately behind the daemonettes, not the daemonettes themselves. In this position they offer some key tactical advantages: Fleet allows them to respond to varying events over a large area. Rending makes them effective vs. high T enemies & light-med AV vehicles. But most importantly, their high Initiative + defensive grenades makes them very difficult to assault. This makes them perfect for receiving an enemy charge & wait for the second wave of CC units (i.e. elites, bloodletters, etc.) to do the heavy lifting.

 

When holding objectives, again, I have a cheap unit that may just sit in their own corner of the table all game. I've thereby minimized the point cost in army units to do so. Defensively, they stay well away from massed rapid fire and can lay out a ton of cc attacks when an invading groups makes a vie to take the objective from them.

 

So ten-man (i.e. womanish-things) units are perfect to serve both roles. -OMG