Captain Juan Juarez Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Two questions: (And apologies if this has already done!) 1. What do you think would happen if the Heresy had not occured? Would Chaos have found another way to interfere with the Imperium, or would a xenos race have become the main threat? 2. If the Heresy had been headed by another Primarch, such as Russ or Corax et al, what could the potential outcome have been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 If it was headed by another Primarch it would have fallen apart much faster (unless Sanguinius led the Great Crusade). the main threat would most likely be Orks or Tyranids since humanity would most likely have wiped out the eldar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 1. A heresy or civil war of some sort was almost certain, just the scale would have been much smaller. 2. Only Horus really could have launched the Heresy as his position as Warmaster was crucial, for example he sent the Ultras and their 200,000 marines off as far away from Terra as he could. However certain primarchs might have been able to sway others to the cause, or if someone else had been warmaster, they could have had a good try. Just my £0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain morgan Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Horus was pretty crucial to the "civil war".the only reason the Emperor lost to him is because he thought of him like a son and didn't use his full strength,according to fluff.i doubt any chaos lord could stand against the Emperor AND Horus,along with the full strength of all the chapters,seeing as they didn't betray,Russ would never have left,half the primarchs would still be alive. then we would be left with 2 races at the end of the day,imperial guard and space marines. then eventually just space marines ;) Edit:oh yeah,tyranids too.why do they always have to ruin it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Well their are alot of individual events that went into laying the ground work for this war. What would happen would deppend on when and where you start to change the timeline. Example Angeron. What if the Emperor was 12 hours later and showed up after the battle and find him alive but only just. He would still be a bit nuts but he wouldn't hate Big E for letting his troops die without him. What if Big E had stood beside Angeron in the fight instead of wisking him away. Obviously they would have won the battle and He would have seen big E in all his uber combat glory. Under either of these alternet timelines do you think anyone could have turned Angeron against Big E? There are well over 3 dozen equally important points in the timeline of the Crusade and for that mater quite a few during the HH itself where event could be drasticly altered by one simply thing. It really does make for interesting thought experiments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Proteus Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 My view on the heresy, is that chaos actually needed Horus, and the other traitor primarchs and legions, and without them, they would have no way to oppose the emperor. If the great crusade had continued without chaos intervention, the emperor would have finished the gate to the webway, and made warp travel unnecessary altogether. And if the chaos gods hadn't gone to Horus, or another race, then they really had no way to bring large and significant force against terra. True, they could hope to possess a latent psyker here, or a mutant there, but they would not have had someone like Lorgar or Erebus to actually summon demons and bring them through to "real" space. Plus, they would've had to find something to deal with all 18 legions and still make it to the emperor. -Proteus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 What about Guilliman then? He had the largest Legion, was well liked by his brothers and was a superior tactician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForTheLion Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 What about Guilliman then? He had the largest Legion, was well liked by his brothers and was a superior tactician. Actualy it was the Lion that had the Greatest tactical mind, he cd estimate who would win any battle before it even started if he was shown the forces employed and skill of the commanders :rolleyes: Guili was just a really good beurocrat (in a manner of speaking) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 What about Guilliman then? He had the largest Legion, was well liked by his brothers and was a superior tactician. Actualy it was the Lion that had the Greatest tactical mind, he cd estimate who would win any battle before it even started if he was shown the forces employed and skill of the commanders :P Guili was just a really good beurocrat (in a manner of speaking) I'm not saying he had the finest actical mind of the Primarchs.. But I think he had one of the better tactical minds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 They Where probably evenly matched. What ever advantage the Lion might have in raw stratge would be made up for by Guillimans abillity to read people better. I think that would let Guilliman change up on the fly better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain morgan Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 They Where probably evenly matched. What ever advantage the Lion might have in raw stratge would be made up for by Guillimans abillity to read people better. I think that would let Guilliman change up on the fly better. well,they're all Primarch's. strategy,strength,cunning,and intelligence is all kind of included as a package deal for those guys :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 They Where probably evenly matched. What ever advantage the Lion might have in raw stratge would be made up for by Guillimans abillity to read people better. I think that would let Guilliman change up on the fly better. well,they're all Primarch's. strategy,strength,cunning,and intelligence is all kind of included as a package deal for those guys :( But each had, in my opinion, a distinct talent. Would the subtle tactics of Alpharius and the Alpha Legion have worked better? A less overt insurrection may have landed better results. What if it had been Rogal Dorn who had turned and the Imperial Fists had still been recalled to earth by the Emperor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain morgan Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 They Where probably evenly matched. What ever advantage the Lion might have in raw stratge would be made up for by Guillimans abillity to read people better. I think that would let Guilliman change up on the fly better. well,they're all Primarch's. strategy,strength,cunning,and intelligence is all kind of included as a package deal for those guys :( But each had, in my opinion, a distinct talent. Would the subtle tactics of Alpharius and the Alpha Legion have worked better? A less overt insurrection may have landed better results. What if it had been Rogal Dorn who had turned and the Imperial Fists had still been recalled to earth by the Emperor? oh,i agree with you there,they all had their strong points.you bring up a good point.i'll bring up another.what if the emperor had listened to magnus about horus' impending betrayal,thus keeping the thousand sons intact as loyalists and routing out horus before he could do any lasting damage to the emperor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 They Where probably evenly matched. What ever advantage the Lion might have in raw stratge would be made up for by Guillimans abillity to read people better. I think that would let Guilliman change up on the fly better. well,they're all Primarch's. strategy,strength,cunning,and intelligence is all kind of included as a package deal for those guys :( But each had, in my opinion, a distinct talent. Would the subtle tactics of Alpharius and the Alpha Legion have worked better? A less overt insurrection may have landed better results. What if it had been Rogal Dorn who had turned and the Imperial Fists had still been recalled to earth by the Emperor? oh,i agree with you there,they all had their strong points.you bring up a good point.i'll bring up another.what if the emperor had listened to magnus about horus' impending betrayal,thus keeping the thousand sons intact as loyalists and routing out horus before he could do any lasting damage to the emperor? That, sort of, falls in with what I meant by what would have happened if the Heresy had never materialised! But the Heresy was already underway by the time Magnus tried to warn the Emperor, so personally I think that it had too much momentum to be so easily stopped. Personally, I believe that Alpahrius might have done a more complete job. Simply carrying on the Crusade whilst the Alpha Legion secretly work to undermine the Imperium and make it ready for a sure and lethal strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain morgan Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 very true,i agree with you on pretty much all accounts.and yes,by time of magnus' warning it was already too late.if it had gone on like you say,with more subtlety and undermining,things might've been worse.or better,considering peoples view's on when the emperor dies in a recent thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 If the emperor had listened to Magnus the Red's warning the Heresy would never have reached Terra. Horus did say that Magnus was his greatest threat second only to the emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I know sombody will get pissed for me saing this but I really think that Big E already knew what was coming years before and made sure as to exactly how it would unfold. In shor the HH happend because the Emperor wanted or needed it to and it unfolded exactly how he wanted it to. If you look at all the opertunities he had to prevent it. He was one of the greatest far seerers in all of history. Knowing what I know about the Emperor in my mind there is no way he didn't see this coming. Question then is why did he let it happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justicar Valius Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 i aint so i think it's fine. i personnaly think that he realised he had become the very thing he wanted to destroy (not xenos but evil human dictator crueling ruleing over humans) but realised that his favoured son had become an even bigger eviler crueler dictator than him. so he had to kill him. but then he realised how wrong it was for him to die as he was a figure of inspiration for more righteous guys that had themselves been killed in the hersey (sanguinus *soz bout spelling* for example) so he gave the notes to Ferrus mannus and vulkan about the golden throne. but possibly he decided that he didn't want to live as he grieved for sanguinuss and horus among others and so decided to delibrately flaw the throne or make it so he had no bodily functions other than focussing the astronomicam and keeping the breech in the webway closed. So many thing with a little change can became totally different. I'ts like back to the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 He was one of the greatest far seerers in all of history. Knowing what I know about the Emperor in my mind there is no way he didn't see this coming. Question then is why did he let it happen? Prescience is a warp power, and thus subject to manipulation by the Chaos gods. You might equally well ask why the Cabal and Alpharius didn't see the Cabal's vision of the Imperium's future as a Tzeentchian trick, which it likely was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 I don't think farseeing works that way or Chaos would have been able to off the Emperor of the Eldar for that mater at their lesure and wouldn't have need ed Horus at all. No the problem with the Calbals vision is its the best possible out come for the Xenos that destroys Chaos, not nessicarily the only outcome that destroys Chaos. The Emperor didn't give a crap about the Eldar or any of the other races; He's looking to save humanity. I think he found a way but to do it the HH had to happen just as it did and I think he knew this before he started the Great Crusade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 He was one of the greatest far seerers in all of history. Knowing what I know about the Emperor in my mind there is no way he didn't see this coming. Question then is why did he let it happen? Prescience is a warp power, and thus subject to manipulation by the Chaos gods. You might equally well ask why the Cabal and Alpharius didn't see the Cabal's vision of the Imperium's future as a Tzeentchian trick, which it likely was. Actually, The Emperor could see the Heresy. False Gods, the part where Horus was in the Gene-lab, the Emperor saw him and said something along the lines of 'You are the one that will do destroy my great works.' And when he walked away, ignoring Horus, that sort of tipped him towarsd Chaos IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NemFX Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Only four other primarches could have gotten any major success if they had led the heresy. Roboute Guilliman: He managed to hold together the entire Imperium, I'm sure he could have knocked it down. Sanguinius: He who would have been Emperor. He'd have done at least as well as Horus. Alpharius: Fight a giant war across all of known space? He'd be the one to plan it and execute it the best. Night Haunter: Destroying morale across the Imperium? Sewing terror? You betcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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