Saul still alive?

[Cougemeister]

I know there are numerous fans of Loken but i'm more interested if Saul Tarvitz could have survived the events of the Heresy. Would he perhaps go on a quest with the true sons of the emperor to redeem the soul of their beloved primarch?

[morthin]

Saul is very dead, just like Loken. Thinking otherwise is nothing but wishfull thinking!

Both Saul and Loken were down on Isstvan III when Horus started the second bombarbment, a bombarbment made so that it wouldn´t repeat the error of the virus bombs (i.e. leaving loyalists alive).

 

Half of their glory lies in their death, loyal to the death.

[Tutteman]

Personally I believe Saul is very very dead, he isn't even TRYING to take cover. He's given up, and men who have given up tend to die easier

[lee265]

Abnett said on youtube Lokens alive, so Saul could easily be also mods this is the Loken thread get the meltas.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Saul is very dead, just like Loken. Thinking otherwise is nothing but wishfull thinking!

Both Saul and Loken were down on Isstvan III when Horus started the second bombarbment, a bombarbment made so that it wouldn´t repeat the error of the virus bombs (i.e. leaving loyalists alive).

 

Half of their glory lies in their death, loyal to the death.

 

Collected Visions page 228. The final fate of Isstavan III. Horus talks to his commanders and has had enough of what is going on on the planet, He tells his commanders to withdraw and for all to prepare to use fleet artillery to bombard the city to oblivion.

 

"Erebus the dark apostle, emissary from Lorgar of the Word Bearers spoke. ' My lord Horus, this is a commendable plan and one which i fully endorse. However, it is not guaranteed that an artillery barrage , even one of such magnitude, will completely deal with these foes. Some will inevitably survive. If you pardon my presumption at mentioning it Sire.'

 

'Thank you Erebus. I do not seek you endorsement but it is welcome. Of cores some will survive, but we will by then have quit this cesspool of a planet. They will be no further threat to us if they have no one to fight. They have no shuttle craft to leave the planet with. Istavaan III will be their tomb or prison, i care not which it is. We have bigger, more important tasks ahead of us. When all else is done, we can return here at leisure and dispose of any remaining issues.'

 

Horus did not know about the underground hanger Rylanor went to guard.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Saul is very dead, just like Loken. Thinking otherwise is nothing but wishfull thinking!

Both Saul and Loken were down on Isstvan III when Horus started the second bombarbment, a bombarbment made so that it wouldn´t repeat the error of the virus bombs (i.e. leaving loyalists alive).

 

Half of their glory lies in their death, loyal to the death.

 

Collected Visions page 228. The final fate of Isstavan III. Horus talks to his commanders and has had enough of what is going on on the planet, He tells his commanders to withdraw and for all to prepare to use fleet artillery to bombard the city to oblivion.

 

"Erebus the dark apostle, emissary from Lorgar of the Word Bearers spoke. ' My lord Horus, this is a commendable plan and one which i fully endorse. However, it is not guaranteed that an artillery barrage , even one of such magnitude, will completely deal with these foes. Some will inevitably survive. If you pardon my presumption at mentioning it Sire.'

 

'Thank you Erebus. I do not seek you endorsement but it is welcome. Of cores some will survive, but we will by then have quit this cesspool of a planet. They will be no further threat to us if they have no one to fight. They have no shuttle craft to leave the planet with. Istavaan III will be their tomb or prison, i care not which it is. We have bigger, more important tasks ahead of us. When all else is done, we can return here at leisure and dispose of any remaining issues.'

 

Horus did not know about the underground hanger Rylanor went to guard.

 

i was waiting for that to come up, this is the same agruement used for loken survivng everything. i am beginging to wonder if ANY loyalists actually died from the bombing, or was everything depicted a clever ruse to throw off Horus?

 

WLK

[Lord_Caerolion]

Nope, all Loyalists at the time of the last bombardment survived by magically teleporting to a rumoured bunker, no matter where on Istvaan they actually were.

Using the same logic, Walkier, I can say that I'll be perfectly fine in the case of a nuclear war here, because there's a military bunker somewhere in the world, no matter that I might be nowhere near it. The existance of a hangar does in no way mean that people could reach it in time.

Plus, the book states that Saul stood and watched the bombardment coming down, knowing that cover would be utterly useless against what was coming. I think the words of a person on the ground are much more trust-worthy than the word of someone relying purely on hearsay.

[Tutteman]

Personally I'd like to say that the hangar is really irrelevant unless it...

1) contains a warp capable vessel (so a pretty big ship probably)

2) Also includes an on-ice navigator

3) has someway to get past one of the biggest fleets in history OR enough supplies to last the several months needed to wait out Horus' fleet (and they still need to know that the fleet has left)

 

 

Come on, Saul is staring up at the bombs and thinking that there is NO POINT in taking cover, so he doesn't! Lucius states there is a RUMOUR of a hangar and states that Saul set Rylanor to guard it, however, if he set Rylanor to guard it that means saul knows of it. And if Saul knows of it and it's close enough for his men to reach it...Why the hell isn't he thinking "Oh well, lets head to the hangar"?

[Lord_Caerolion]

We've asked those questions before, Tutteman, and the most its got us is claims that Loken was a psyker capable of navigating the ship. Just... don't ask.

[Tutteman]

We've asked those questions before, Tutteman, and the most its got us is claims that Loken was a psyker capable of navigating the ship. Just... don't ask.

 

...point taken BUT I added something, the bit about the saul and if HE knows about the hangar ...................................................................okay yeah, I'll give up

[Captain Mike]

"He's dead Jim, dead!"

"They're dead Claire, they are ALL dead"

 

Just some references that are running through my head at the moment. It may be becuase I WANT them to be dead. There was something so epic, so touching, about the death of the Loyalist, that having them survive would ruin the mood.

[Tutteman]

"He's dead Jim, dead!"

"They're dead Claire, they are ALL dead"

This made me laugh :D

[Marshal Varas Mortez]

To be honest I am pretty sure Loken is dead, hell it said as much. Saul didnt try to get to cover, as such I would say he is very dead too.

 

There might be a few loyalists alive in that hanger, i guess we might find out later.

[Hergrmir]

Ugh. I really liked Loken and Tarvitz. That was the point, there were likeable honourable people who did their duty but not blindly, and had the internal courage to stand against the tide.

 

And part of what was awesome about it was that they died, not that they magically got plotinium armour.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, it seems Abnett has said Loken may indeed still live, but it isn't a sure thing, as he didn't give a direct answer, instead saying "rumours of his death are greatly exaggerated."

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Well, it seems Abnett has said Loken may indeed still live, but it isn't a sure thing, as he didn't give a direct answer, instead saying "rumours of his death are greatly exaggerated."

 

I cant believe that is not enough. He also said that anyone who said Loken was dead was "Lying."

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Let keep away from the Loken/turn this topic into another one. This topic is about Saul Tarvitz.

 

IP

[Skirax]

And if Saul knows of it and it's close enough for his men to reach it...Why the hell isn't he thinking "Oh well, lets head to the hangar"?

If just taking a guess here:

 

He is a proud man, but not arrogant, and cares for his brothers. He knows Horus will throw everything against all tht survives and, knowing that there was no way his small men (depleted further by the second bombardement) could stand to them.

 

Thus, by allowing himself and his brothers to die, they don't have to face a vile, pain filled defeat at the hands of Horus.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

And if Saul knows of it and it's close enough for his men to reach it...Why the hell isn't he thinking "Oh well, lets head to the hangar"?

If just taking a guess here:

 

He is a proud man, but not arrogant, and cares for his brothers. He knows Horus will throw everything against all tht survives and, knowing that there was no way his small men (depleted further by the second bombardement) could stand to them.

 

Thus, by allowing himself and his brothers to die, they don't have to face a vile, pain filled defeat at the hands of Horus.

 

I don't think any with Tarvitz at the end of the War on Istavaan III, were ready to throw their lives away to make a statement. I feel the reason they did not rush to the hanger is there was no time. We have no idea if the hanger was near to the building the were hold up in. They had no forewarning that they were going to be bombarded. They did not know that Horus had other things pressing his time. They only knew they were in the fight of their lives, their loyalty was to the Emperor and had to fight it to the end. Even though they knew Horus's method of waging war better then any in the galaxy, they had no idea when the traitor forces withdrew that bombs would be next. If Tarvits and any of the 100 astartes with him survived this parting shot form the traitors they did it with out help of the Underground hanger guarded by Rylanor. Something else we don't know about yet effected things.

 

From what I have been able to dig up, GW has for a long time now, decided there would be some 70 survivors out of the tens of thousands who made the initial drop to Istavaan III. Tarvits and Garro have been named as survivors from the start but it was said they all escaped on The Eisenstein. There where World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Luna Wolves and Thousand Sons. This changed when the HH was reintroduced with this current series of books, the Collected Visions and HH CCG. I think GW will stick with the number of 70 ish survivors including those on The Eisenstein and those left on Istavaan III. The difference with the old accounts being explained as a misunderstanding of second hand information. If we go with the number 70, and there are 20 ish Astartes on The Eisenstein with Garro, then my guess will be 50 along with Tarviz, will make it back to Terra, some how. This means that about half survive the Bombing, a slightly high % given the known circumstances but not too far out side fluff of the resilience of the Astartes.

 

It is too bad that so many WANT Tarvitz and the others to die. Some how the Tens of thousands hero's who died are not enough to satisfy the tragic overtone of the HH. If a handful live on to continue the fight, people see that ALL have been given plot armour. If even one lives through the bombing then the Grim-darkness is all a lie and we are really dealing with a Glee-brightness. Ever the optimist i see that if they all die, SM's don't deserve to be held above normal troops. This to me was Horus's main goal with this war, he wanted to make a statement none could ignore. He wanted to say to the Galaxy not even Space Marines will stand is his way. Those Loyal to the Emperor are NOTHING. Vermin, to be bombarded and safely left to wither and die in filth. If that all die he was right.

 

Wait a minute.... I cant believe I have not thought about this before..... while in the process of this post, digging though my books trying to show how there is reason for hope that the Emperor would/ could intervene on their behalf. Searching for some kind of "Divine Intervention", I think I know how they live! As you might know, I feel these men go on to form the Grey Knights. Well I was going to use the Sisters of Battle as example of how the kind of faith theses Astartes had could be used to save them. But instead of picking up my WH codex I grabbed my DH to see if there was a more direct reference. When flipping through the Grey Knights section the Answer jumped out ant bit me............

 

 

((((({{{<<< THE SHROUDING >>>}}})))

 

The Shrouding

 

Through prayer and the combined gestalt psychic power of the Grey Knights, they are able to blind their enemies with their sheer faith. For an enemy to fire upon a Grey Knight, he must first determine if he can spot the unit.

 

Ok this is my shakeyest, thin branch i have yet to perch on......... you heard it hear FIRST! Saul and the others survived the Bombing on Istavann III, due to the first manifestation of The Shrouding. That is the Missing link. This is your plot armour!.... You out there who said there is no way other then some "plot armour" were Right! OMG! WE were ALL right! LOL the Authors must have been laughing their head off at this whole argument.

 

DH Codex pg8, The Shrouding. "Guess range weapons and ordnance weapons fire as normal but double their scatter distance if the Grey Knights are out side the spotting ranged rolled."

 

Now PLEASE DON'T say that this could not be because none of these men where psykers. If that is true ill say right now i have been a fool from the start. If though as i have been saying, that those Librarians reintegrated into their legions could have been the ones with the "Right Stuff" to have, like cream rising to the top, made it to the end with Tarviz......... This would also explain why all Grey Knights can manifest the Holocaust Power. They more then any other could channel what they learned on Istavaan III. That witch dose not kill you .......

[Castlerook]

I've always believed Saul Tarvitz to be the type of character you see in disaster movies, for example the Teá Leoni character in Deep Impact, who stands, watching as the megatsunami heads towards her, or the Charles Hallahan character dying in Dante's Peak. (Apologies if I've ruined these films for anyone). Yes, this type of character could, most likely escape if they didn't spend time just standing there waiting for whatever to happen, but thats not the point of these characters.

 

These characters often stay and die as part of a self imposed penance for past actions they feel responsible for, in the case of Dante's Peak, Charles Hallahan's character's decision not to evacuate the town earlier, even with the evidence provided, later made no effort to escape from a incoming mudslide, which killed him.

 

In Tarvitz' case, you get the impression that the fact he could not sense the corruption amongst his Legion weighs heavily on his shoulders, perhaps if he had acted, a greater tragedy could be avoided. The fact is, no matter what he could have done, it wouldn't have changed anything, but the character doesn't know that (its a priviledge we, the readers, have alone). So, as the last bombardment occured, Saul Tarvitz accepted his punishment, by not seeking cover, and letting the barrage claim him, his penance served.

 

In my mind, Saul Tarvitz is dead, theres nothing left but a legacy of what was good and honourable in the Traitorous Legions. Which, is a shame, because Tarvitz was one of the few characters I truly liked in the Heresy series.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

In Tarvitz' case, you get the impression that the fact he could not sense the corruption amongst his Legion weighs heavily on his shoulders, perhaps if he had acted, a greater tragedy could be avoided. The fact is, no matter what he could have done, it wouldn't have changed anything, but the character doesn't know that (its a privileged we, the readers, have alone). So, as the last bombardment occurred, Saul Tarvitz accepted his punishment, by not seeking cover, and letting the barrage claim him, his penance served.

 

But Tarvitz DID sense the corruption. He DID take action. He DID avert a greater Tragedy. When he senses something wrong in the composition of the First wave (Lord Commander Eidolon, not being apart of it was strange as he was such a glory hound,) He gets himself reassigned by asking Rylanor. He then took the action of investigating what was in store fore those who made the first landing. When he senses his ship moving he goes and finds that Virus Bombs are about to be employed. Then he Acts by stealing a Thunderhawk and fights his way to the planet to warn he fellow loyalists. By taking this action he saves the lives of Thousands. After making it to the planet he then helps to lead what was to be a Execution into a War. Tarvits and the rest of the survivors have nothing to be ashamed of, nor reason at the end, to feel like they should bend over for Horus.

 

Collected Visions pg 228 The final fate of Isstvan III. 'On his great battle barge the Vengfull Spirit, orbiting the blasted ruin that was Isstavan III, the Warmaster Horus addressed his inner circle of traitor commanders. " The time has come for us to put an end to the battle below. The pitiable band of Imperialists remaining there can stall my plans no longer. Finish this think and finish it quickly!"

Kelbor-Hal, the Fabricator General, spoke ' But Sire, these warriors loyal to the Emperor fight as none have before. they fear nothing, not even my great and mighty Titans'

' They are Space Marines. I would have expected no less from them. They will not meekly accept their fate. The very last one of them standing will still fight, with bolter, chainsword or bare fists. It is the way of things.'

 

 

Sory but you are wrong about Tarviz's motivations.

[Castlerook]

Sory but you are wrong about Tarviz's motivations

 

And I suppose your the authors who wrote the novels? There are no right or wrong ideas concerning these topics.

 

The tragedy I referred to was the entire corruption of the Emperor's Children Legion, thats the greatest personal tragedy to Tarvitz.

[Pacific81]

It seems the only 'good ending' for a lot of people commenting is the hero riding off into the sunset while an acoustic guitar playing in the background. Hollywood has got a lot to answer for :D

 

Tarvitz (and the other guy who I won't mention) died fighting for what they believed in - everybody dies eventually, even space marines, and they had the spirit to choose the manner of their death. You could regard it as a victory of sorts, and something that the traitors can never take away from them.

 

But if 'the other guy' is still alive, then by definition Tarvitz could be too (and, while we're at it, why not add Darth Vader and Ripley from Aliens to that list? Whats being cremated or falling into a pit of molten metal to a good story? :) ) Personally I think that, as his way for anyone whos followed his blog or watched his intervies for any length of time will know, Mr. Abnett has got a rather subtle but mischevious sense of humour and I wouldn't be at all suprised that his comments in the interview are an example of that.

 

Regarding the hanger, I think that only has significance as far as Ancient Rylanor the EC dreadnought is concerned. Tarvitz had spoken to him previously (once it was obvious what was going to happen, and that he would almost certainly be killed), and the narrative hints that the dreadnought took with him to that hanger the memories of the Legion, and what they once were. This was worth far more than the life of any single Astartes.

[Tutteman]

Bold is me, I have removed irrelevant sections to avoid so much wall of text doom and am answering each point this way because it should be easier.

 

And if Saul knows of it and it's close enough for his men to reach it...Why the hell isn't he thinking "Oh well, lets head to the hangar"?

If just taking a guess here:

 

He is a proud man, but not arrogant, and cares for his brothers. He knows Horus will throw everything against all tht survives and, knowing that there was no way his small men (depleted further by the second bombardement) could stand to them.

 

Thus, by allowing himself and his brothers to die, they don't have to face a vile, pain filled defeat at the hands of Horus.

 

I don't think any with Tarvitz at the end of the War on Istavaan III, were ready to throw their lives away to make a statement. I feel the reason they did not rush to the hanger is there was no time. We have no idea if the hanger was near to the building the were hold up in. They had no forewarning that they were going to be bombarded. They did not know that Horus had other things pressing his time. They only knew they were in the fight of their lives, their loyalty was to the Emperor and had to fight it to the end. Even though they knew Horus's method of waging war better then any in the galaxy, they had no idea when the traitor forces withdrew that bombs would be next. If Tarvits and any of the 100 astartes with him survived this parting shot form the traitors they did it with out help of the Underground hanger guarded by Rylanor. Something else we don't know about yet effected things.

 

So basically Saul knows about the hangar, knows there is no way to reach it, and isn't bothering to take cover or run or in fact preserve his men in any way and yet survives to reach the hangar. Something else, if Lucius is Sauls closest friend and one of his fellow commanders then why does he not tell Lucius about the hangar, Lucius only states there is a rumour

 

It is too bad that so many WANT Tarvitz and the others to die. Some how the Tens of thousands hero's who died are not enough to satisfy the tragic overtone of the HH. If a handful live on to continue the fight, people see that ALL have been given plot armour. If even one lives through the bombing then the Grim-darkness is all a lie and we are really dealing with a Glee-brightness. Ever the optimist i see that if they all die, SM's don't deserve to be held above normal troops. This to me was Horus's main goal with this war, he wanted to make a statement none could ignore. He wanted to say to the Galaxy not even Space Marines will stand is his way. Those Loyal to the Emperor are NOTHING. Vermin, to be bombarded and safely left to wither and die in filth. If that all die he was right.

 

I'm afraid the reason I want Saul and co to remain dead is because ten thousand nameless warriors isn't tragic, it's war. But throw in a few named and empathised with characters with depth who have been watching this rot helplessly and even as they see this rot and it's horrific nature are still betrayed beyond their wildest nightmares, now thats tragic. And about SMs and not being above normal troops...what? Would normal troops have held out for several months against vastly superiour forces including two primarchs? After seeing the Istvaan III War No one can argue that SMs aren't the "emperor's finest" or it would not have been a war, it would have been a massacre like horus wanted.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I agree with Tutteman. It isn't tragic if hundreds of unnamed soldiers die, because the audience has no connection to them. It's bad, sure, but not tragic. It's like that quote: one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic. What people seem to want to do is keep the "million", but not the "one".

You say it isn't plot armour for Saul and Loken to both survive, because so many others died. However, lets have a look at how many important characters go to Istvaan as defenders:

Lucius, joins the rebels.

Rylanor, hides in a hangar.

Loken, supposedly lives.

Saul, supposedly lives.

Every important character going down there apparently lives now. That isn't tragedy, thats showing that if you've done stuff in the book previously, you'll live to do more stuff no matter what you face.

 

Also, the Shrouding thing is just taking your aready shaky psyker argument beyond belief. Not only are Loken and Garro psykers, but so are all the then-survivors of the Istvaan massacres, in enough numbers to basically form a shield stopping a barrage that will level the damn city from hitting them? Is there anybody you don't believe was a psyker? Hell, perhaps the entire Luna Wolf Legion was psychic, but were told not to use their powers after Istvaan?