Saul still alive?

[Tutteman]

The thing is, the hangar is a rumour. And I find it highly unlikely that aul would not have told Lucius about it personally if he had sent Rylanor to guard a hangar, a major tactical asset, something his best mate and someone who was pretty high up in the chain of command I'd imagine. I'm not saying for sure there is no hangar, but consider it. I personally think Rylanor survives, but only in a hulking through the ruins for several centuries till he goes mad way.

 

As for the bombing, Horus gives teh order to "Wipe the city of the face of the planet"...not the northern bit, not the bit around Saul and co, not number 23 B Strafford road. The whole city, and Horus is not prone to backing down, or issuing orders he knows cannot be obeyed (because then he'd lose face when it was not carried out). And whilst I'll agree with you that Lucius and Eidolon are arogant and prone to underestimating enemies...They also are experienced commanders. I'd trust their military judgement so long as it makes sense to me too.

 

And if they can survive in the hangar, why are they not running to the hangar? If they can survive by hiding in the hangar why are they not going to it? I can only assume that if there is a hangar, they are too far away to reach it. This leaves them no way to survive as far as i can see.

[Phoebus]

It deliberately states they don't move though!

At the time when the Preceptor Palace got bombed, yes. And that's not where they were. Look, I already told you that, upon completing "Galaxy in Flames", I was pretty much convinced Saul & co. were dead. :)

 

The problem I see arose when "Fulgrim" was written, which came after the fact and added that neat little wrinkle about Rylanor guarding some hangar or some such. What on earth would be the point of including that, then giving us a blatant "Oh, but it wouldn't matter anyway" throw-away line by two of the most arrogant individuals in the series?!? If death was a pre-ordained and accepted fact by the loyalists, what would the point be of having Rylanor go guard something? If there was nothing of value down there, and no means of securing some way of survival (something Lucius and Eidolon clearly admit is a possibility), then why wasn't that throw-away line included in "Galaxy in Flames" as an indication that the Dreadnought was just making sure Traitors wouldn't come up some back door?

 

Anyways... Nothing we offer on this forum will ever amount to anything other than conjecture or opinion. I respect yours, but I simply refuse to accept that things are as cut and dry as some posters/readers claim they are. Not just because I happen to feel contrary, but because I feel there is a strong hint delivered by the author.

 

As for the bombing, Horus gives teh order to "Wipe the city of the face of the planet"...not the northern bit, not the bit around Saul and co, not number 23 B Strafford road. The whole city, and Horus is not prone to backing down, or issuing orders he knows cannot be obeyed (because then he'd lose face when it was not carried out).

Sure, I agree with that. I pointed out as much. What I was arguing was that it wasn't a simultaneous bombardment of the city in its entirety. The text makes it perfectly obvious that the city was destroyed in portions. While Saul is watching, the northern portion and the Preceptor Palace are destroyed. Not his position.

 

And whilst I'll agree with you that Lucius and Eidolon are arogant and prone to underestimating enemies...They also are experienced commanders. I'd trust their military judgement so long as it makes sense to me too.

Lucius also is caught by surprise both against Loken and Tarvitz--courtesy of his tendency to overestimate his own skill and underestimate that of others. Neither he nor Eidolon are offering an opinion based on anything solid... such as first-hand knowledge of the complex they're talking about (the Warsinger Temple and the supposed hangar underneath). They're basically just saying "Eh, everything's wiped out, and if it wasn't it's buried underneath." Which completely ignores the fact that we're talking about a hangar, and that someone put it very deep underground for a reason... that reason being to withstand massive damage, one would imagine.

 

And if they can survive in the hangar, why are they not running to the hangar? If they can survive by hiding in the hangar why are they not going to it? I can only assume that if there is a hangar, they are too far away to reach it. This leaves them no way to survive as far as i can see.

They simply don't at that time.

 

I thought it was fairly obvious that Tarvitz was prepared to fight the Traitors to the last man. The hangar would have been no real defense against entire Legions willing to fight them all the way down there. On the other hand, its location would be a defense against a bombardment. If Saul survives (IF!), then he has Horus' arrogance to thank for it. Or, rather, the stalwart fighting spirit of his men, which made such an assault a waste of time and resources in the eyes of the Warmaster.

 

And, again, if Sault survives (IF!), then it's obviously due to hangar itself, which wasn't introduced until "Fulgrim". And for good reason. We can agree to disagree as to whether the return of these characters is a good plot device (I wouldn't mind it; I know other would), but Saul seeing the bombardment coming in (during "Galaxy in Flames") and going "Oh, well, I guess it's time to withdraw this hangar bay..." would undoubtedly have killed any dramatic tension.

 

By introducing the possibility in a later book, the authors accomplished precisely what's happening here: they opened the forum for discussion, created buzz about future books, and did so without offering anything concrete or absolute.

 

Cheers!

[lee265]

I have the answere and it quite simple, in fact everyone on the planet is this, unless specifically and undeniably stated to be otherwise by one of the books or authors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

The problem I see arose when "Fulgrim" was written, which came after the fact and added that neat little wrinkle about Rylanor guarding some hangar or some such. What on earth would be the point of including that, then giving us a blatant "Oh, but it wouldn't matter anyway" throw-away line by two of the most arrogant individuals in the series?!? If death was a pre-ordained and accepted fact by the loyalists, what would the point be of having Rylanor go guard something? If there was nothing of value down there, and no means of securing some way of survival (something Lucius and Eidolon clearly admit is a possibility), then why wasn't that throw-away line included in "Galaxy in Flames" as an indication that the Dreadnought was just making sure Traitors wouldn't come up some back door?

I so agree. There is no point in having the scene with Lucius and Eidolon if there are no survivors. It would just be kicking the Loyalets when they were down. I don't think it could be seen as moving the story forward.

 

And if they can survive in the hangar, why are they not running to the hangar? If they can survive by hiding in the hangar why are they not going to it? I can only assume that if there is a hangar, they are too far away to reach it. This leaves them no way to survive as far as i can see.

 

I thought it was fairly obvious that Tarvitz was prepared to fight the Traitors to the last man. The hangar would have been no real defense against entire Legions willing to fight them all the way down there. On the other hand, its location would be a defense against a bombardment. If Saul survives (IF!), then he has Horus' arrogance to thank for it. Or, rather, the stalwart fighting spirit of his men, which made such an assault a waste of time and resources in the eyes of the Warmaster.

 

And, again, if Sault survives (IF!), then it's obviously due to hangar itself, which wasn't introduced until "Fulgrim". And for good reason. We can agree to disagree as to whether the return of these characters is a good plot device (I wouldn't mind it; I know other would), but Saul seeing the bombardment coming in (during "Galaxy in Flames") and going "Oh, well, I guess it's time to withdraw this hangar bay..." would undoubtedly have killed any dramatic tension.

 

By introducing the possibility in a later book, the authors accomplished precisely what's happening here: they opened the forum for discussion, created buzz about future books, and did so without offering anything concrete or absolute.

 

Cheers!

I happen to think that it is unlikely that this hanger would have been used by the loyalest as a bomb shelter. Even at the end, i don't think the Loyalists would have been taking valuable time looking up at bombs if they had a place to run. They had already been though the virus bombing and had seen first had what happens to the slow to act. Nor do i think they would have been held up in a place even close to the hanger. To do so would expose it to discovery. I would have been across the city were no one trying to kill me could stumble over it. I agree with those who think for whatever reason that they weathered the bombing in the open. What would be the purpose in writing that they looked up and did not run for cover then when we look the other way they all run like hell? I have found the answer i believe. Look at the description of the "Shrouding" powers of the Grey Knights. If some was going to survive a bombing of this kind with out taking cover they would need the hand of Good aka divine intervention. I think the authors looked through the game books for situations like theses. Or maybe the game creators put the power in knowing the event that started it all.

[Tutteman]

The problem I see arose when "Fulgrim" was written, which came after the fact and added that neat little wrinkle about Rylanor guarding some hangar or some such. What on earth would be the point of including that, then giving us a blatant "Oh, but it wouldn't matter anyway" throw-away line by two of the most arrogant individuals in the series?!? If death was a pre-ordained and accepted fact by the loyalists, what would the point be of having Rylanor go guard something? If there was nothing of value down there, and no means of securing some way of survival (something Lucius and Eidolon clearly admit is a possibility), then why wasn't that throw-away line included in "Galaxy in Flames" as an indication that the Dreadnought was just making sure Traitors wouldn't come up some back door?

I so agree. There is no point in having the scene with Lucius and Eidolon if there are no survivors. It would just be kicking the Loyalets when they were down. I don't think it could be seen as moving the story forward.

 

And if they can survive in the hangar, why are they not running to the hangar? If they can survive by hiding in the hangar why are they not going to it? I can only assume that if there is a hangar, they are too far away to reach it. This leaves them no way to survive as far as i can see.

 

I thought it was fairly obvious that Tarvitz was prepared to fight the Traitors to the last man. The hangar would have been no real defense against entire Legions willing to fight them all the way down there. On the other hand, its location would be a defense against a bombardment. If Saul survives (IF!), then he has Horus' arrogance to thank for it. Or, rather, the stalwart fighting spirit of his men, which made such an assault a waste of time and resources in the eyes of the Warmaster.

 

And, again, if Sault survives (IF!), then it's obviously due to hangar itself, which wasn't introduced until "Fulgrim". And for good reason. We can agree to disagree as to whether the return of these characters is a good plot device (I wouldn't mind it; I know other would), but Saul seeing the bombardment coming in (during "Galaxy in Flames") and going "Oh, well, I guess it's time to withdraw this hangar bay..." would undoubtedly have killed any dramatic tension.

 

By introducing the possibility in a later book, the authors accomplished precisely what's happening here: they opened the forum for discussion, created buzz about future books, and did so without offering anything concrete or absolute.

 

Cheers!

I happen to think that it is unlikely that this hanger would have been used by the loyalest as a bomb shelter. Even at the end, i don't think the Loyalists would have been taking valuable time looking up at bombs if they had a place to run. They had already been though the virus bombing and had seen first had what happens to the slow to act. Nor do i think they would have been held up in a place even close to the hanger. To do so would expose it to discovery. I would have been across the city were no one trying to kill me could stumble over it. I agree with those who think for whatever reason that they weathered the bombing in the open. What would be the purpose in writing that they looked up and did not run for cover then when we look the other way they all run like hell? I have found the answer i believe. Look at the description of the "Shrouding" powers of the Grey Knights. If some was going to survive a bombing of this kind with out taking cover they would need the hand of Good aka divine intervention. I think the authors looked through the game books for situations like theses. Or maybe the game creators put the power in knowing the event that started it all.

 

I'll echo the first bit of Lord Walkier's argument...HEY! We agreed on something Walkier...(looks around nervously) shouldn't the universe have imploded or something :D

 

While I'll agree that I think they added mention of the hangar to give a bone for people to figth over, I think it's a bad bone for reason i mentioned in that post, why doesn't Lucius KNOW about this hangar? I don't think BL thought that but through if it really exists.

 

Walkier, I cannot agree with your shrouding argument for my previously stated reasons of lack of psykers. This said we've already thrashed this one out, may as well not waste typing given neither of us will give way short a published BL book telling us shouding happened or not. :D

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I'll echo the first bit of Lord Walkier's argument...HEY! We agreed on something Walkier...(looks around nervously) shouldn't the universe have imploded or something ^_^

......... /BOOOOOOM!!!!/ I may seem like a lunatic some times but i would like you to know that i am not just trying to pick a fight or convince people the sky is really red not blue. Ignoring or trying to sweep under the rug, clues like the loyalists not running for cover wont lead us to the right answer. Even if doing so might help my argument. The authors including the scene in the book was not an accident or oversight. But neither was the scene with Lucius and Eidolon in Fulgrim. They are both foreshadowing the same eventuality. Trying to explain away one or the other is like looking at something with one eye closed. Both are needed to get the right perspective. My idea of the Shrouding comes as a result of trying to reconcile both of these scenes. The Loyalists did not run for cover but somehow survived, against all odds. This screams of Divine Intervention or as you might think it "plot amour" All of this takes place inside the box of 40k. The story tellers have to use the same rules for their stories as we play with on the table top. They might have access to some inside information we dont know but the bulk has to come from already published materials. The answer must be in the books we already have or it wont be 40k. I challenge the people here to find a better answer then the Shrouding. What better effect out there could possibly be the reason the Loyalists make it? Saying there is no answer because they all die is your right but not very helpful.

While I'll agree that I think they added mention of the hangar to give a bone for people to figth over, I think it's a bad bone for reason i mentioned in that post, why doesn't Lucius KNOW about this hangar? I don't think BL thought that but through if it really exists.

 

Tarvitz not telling Lucius about the hanger should not be such a hang up. Saul had to be having major trust issues. His Primarch had just ordered him to his execution. Also Saul knew that Lucius was a hot head and might have thought that if he told him about the location of the hanger he would not have been able to keep it a secret. He might have let it slip while he was in a fight to get under the skin of whom ever he was killing. Maybe he thought giving his men this information would have been a distraction from the task at hand. A way off the planet would not help if they did not survvie the war. The less number of people who knew about the Hanger the more likely it would stay a secret.

Walkier, I cannot agree with your shrouding argument for my previously stated reasons of lack of psykers. This said we've already thrashed this one out, may as well not waste typing given neither of us will give way short a published BL book telling us shouding happened or not. :D

Well don't mind me if i waste my time. If i had had that attitude i would not have been able to say i was right about Loken living. Maybe if you helped to figure out what happened to them after Istavaan III instead of take target practice on my thoughts you might feel a bit better about all this..... I Digress.

The feelings of theses Astartes at the moment of the final bombing must have been intense in the extreme. The loss of their brothers, and who their killers were had to shake them to their core. Knowing that the traitors had quit the fight and now had resorted to bombing them had to frustrate them and bring their hatred to a boil. If their was ever a trigger for something like the Shrouding i cant see a better time for it.

[Phoebus]

I may seem like a lunatic some times but i would like you to know that i am not just trying to pick a fight or convince people the sky is really red not blue. Ignoring or trying to sweep under the rug, clues like the loyalists not running for cover wont lead us to the right answer.

I think that's the problem. To you it might appear to be a plain-cut situation. To me, it's not. I think our difference of opinion boils down to this: you weigh the evidence as presented by the books as a whole, meaning side-by-side; I weigh it in chronological order, as the story is being delivered to me.

 

To you, Saul and his men standing in the open and seeing the beginning of the bombardment (a beginning, which I'll remind, only encompassed a portion of the city) constitutes the end of the story. Lucius' revelation regarding the hangar thus doesn't seem to count for much because in your eyes (it's your prerogative, don't get me wrong) what's done is done.

 

To me, Saul and his men standing in the open and seeing the beginning of the bombardment is dramatic effect. An author has to find a good way to end his book. If he has secrets to maintain regarding the larger storyline, he also has to find an ending that both satisfies the need for drama and keeps hidden whatever he has in store for later. Lucius revelation regarding the hangar thus is very important to me, since it came after the ending of "Galaxy in Flames[/i] and qualifies/modifies the information given to me there. I'm being made aware of information that wasn't available to me two books ago. And it's not implausible since, quite simply, we don't see Saul die, and any assumption as to him being unable to seek cover in hangars or some such is simply that: an assumption. The elevators could have been very fast. I don't know. Or maybe he died gruesomely in that very balcony, as you claim. I don't know. What I do know is that no one can state unequivocably that they know what happened in that situation. The authors simply don't give you enough data to say anything with certainty, and I think they did so for a reason.

 

Cheers,

P.

[Tutteman]

Well Wakier, we may as well thrash some more ;)

I'll avoid the psyker argument though, we didn't really get far with that, but why would shrouding have any affect, horus is not targeting people or even squads, he's targetting a darn city! Cities don't move much, so he has all the targeting data he needs, shrouding just makes people miss or not be able to see the GK (I think :) I don't run GK) Horus is going to wipe a city off the map, not try and take out a army or even a few blocks. The city, he knows where it is, not even bad guy henchmen can miss that!

 

I suppose that you're right in that I can't be sure, but Occum's razor, the simplest observed possibility is usually true. -_- (And I'm Christian living in faith, go figure ;) )

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I may seem like a lunatic some times but i would like you to know that i am not just trying to pick a fight or convince people the sky is really red not blue. Ignoring or trying to sweep under the rug, clues like the loyalists not running for cover wont lead us to the right answer.

I think that's the problem. To you it might appear to be a plain-cut situation. To me, it's not. I think our difference of opinion boils down to this: you weigh the evidence as presented by the books as a whole, meaning side-by-side; I weigh it in chronological order, as the story is being delivered to me.

 

To you, Saul and his men standing in the open and seeing the beginning of the bombardment (a beginning, which I'll remind, only encompassed a portion of the city) constitutes the end of the story. Lucius' revelation regarding the hangar thus doesn't seem to count for much because in your eyes (it's your prerogative, don't get me wrong) what's done is done.

 

To me, Saul and his men standing in the open and seeing the beginning of the bombardment is dramatic effect. An author has to find a good way to end his book. If he has secrets to maintain regarding the larger storyline, he also has to find an ending that both satisfies the need for drama and keeps hidden whatever he has in store for later. Lucius revelation regarding the hangar thus is very important to me, since it came after the ending of "Galaxy in Flames[/i] and qualifies/modifies the information given to me there. I'm being made aware of information that wasn't available to me two books ago. And it's not implausible since, quite simply, we don't see Saul die, and any assumption as to him being unable to seek cover in hangars or some such is simply that: an assumption. The elevators could have been very fast. I don't know. Or maybe he died gruesomely in that very balcony, as you claim. I don't know. What I do know is that no one can state unequivocably that they know what happened in that situation. The authors simply don't give you enough data to say anything with certainty, and I think they did so for a reason.

 

Cheers,

P.

You are right that i take the books as a whole, but i think you are doing more then just taking the most resent as the best information. The end of GiF is more then just the beginning of the bombing. I don't have my books but it clearly stated that Saul and co felt there was no need to run for cover. It did not matter because the warmaster was too thorough. If they had a place to run to it would most certainly matter if they delayed at all. Even if the bombs began on the other side of town, they still had injured brothers to help along and no guarantee that their section would not be the very next target.

Neither were the loyalists, wide eyed deer caught looking at the headlights of a car coming to run them over.

 

' They are Space Marines. I would have expected no less from them. They will not meekly accept their fate. The very last one of them standing will still fight, with bolter, chainsword or bare fists. It is the way of things.'

 

They were not done fighting because they were exhausted and overwhelmed by the magnitude of their fate. They had infarct been through much worse in the war from the beginning. They might have been caught a bit by surprise but not enough to give into to Horus and let him Win. The Loyalists seeming lack of action at the end of GiF was VERY out of character for them and i think it was done for a reason, to set up the Shrouding. They might have been resign'd to their fate but they did so will head held high and full faith in the Emperor, and i feel that is what saved them. The Emperor protected them. I might be wrong in what i say next but ..... I don't think the saying "the Emperor protects", was used before Istavaan III. If I'm right this is where the saying originates.

 

 

 

The thoughts of Traitors leaving the planet dose not change the feelings of the Astartes on Istavaan III what so ever. They did not talk about the reasons they would have run for cover. Lucius only discusses the possibility for any who might have survived the bombing having a way to get of the planet. It is the fact that they leave room at all for survivors that sheds any light on Sauls situation. What ever saved Saul form death was not him taking cover. If they did run for cover that would mean that they wasted valuable time smelling the roses, which was not a trait ever given to the Loyalists. The only thing more valuable then the their lives was their Loyalty to the Emperor and hurting Horus.

 

Well Wakier, we may as well thrash some more ;)

I'll avoid the psyker argument though, we didn't really get far with that, but why would shrouding have any affect, horus is not targeting people or even squads, he's targetting a darn city! Cities don't move much, so he has all the targeting data he needs, shrouding just makes people miss or not be able to see the GK (I think :D I don't run GK) Horus is going to wipe a city off the map, not try and take out a army or even a few blocks. The city, he knows where it is, not even bad guy henchmen can miss that!

 

DH Codex pg8, The Shrouding. "Guess range weapons and ordnance weapons fire as normal but double their scatter distance if the Grey Knights are out side the spotting ranged rolled."

 

I disagree that Horus and friends were not targeting the loyalists. Horus was not mad at buildings. If they were in a different place the city would have been left alone. Also it is not my argument that Horus missed the city. It states clearly that he hit the city many times. I'm just saying that the bombs that would have hit the loyalists were pushed aside by the hand of the Emperor.

Guess range weapons don't tecnaly target people. The ordnance templates for guess range weapons don't have to be placed on top of models. The effect of the Shrouding has nothing to do with those shooting the weapons only the faith of those it protects. If you placed a ordinance template right next to Grey Knights but not touching them it would not be effected by the Shrouding. only templates that are placed over them, have their distance doubled.

 

I suppose that you're right in that I can't be sure, but Occum's razor, the simplest observed possibility is usually true. :P (And I'm Christian living in faith, go figure ;) )

 

Mr occum and his theories don't apply here. The writers have given us this unknown as a means to a end. It is not up to random chance. If Saul lives it will be because that is what they were told to do by the creators of 40k. I will agree that if it was the kind of situation where the razor could be used they would most likely be Istavaan paste.

[Starblayde]

I might be wrong in what i say next but ..... I don't think the saying "the Emperor protects", was used before Istavaan III. If I'm right this is where the saying originates.

 

'Fraid so, you're wrong. The teachings of the Lectio Divinatus on board the ships (such as the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus Vengeful Spirit) amongst the normal men and women mentioned that 'the Emperor Protects', and it is rammed home with their experiences on board. The Space Marines themselves didn't believe a word of it, as they were all bound up with the Imperial Truth, that there is no such thing as gods or religion.

 

Plus the fact that, as far as I can tell, the ships of the Emperor's Children have not been documented as having Lectio Divinatus cults on board, just the Luna Wolves' one. All the EC Remembrancers were too busy having orgies, while the enormous fleet travelling with the Luna Wolves and the Warmaster had both Imperial Guard and Titan Legions with them, giving a plentiful supply of the ordinary men and women of the Imperium to believe in the God-Emperor.

[Phoebus]

You are right that i take the books as a whole, but i think you are doing more then just taking the most resent as the best information. The end of GiF is more then just the beginning of the bombing.

I think that's an opinion, personally. Well, to be honest, we're both trading opinions, but the fact of the matter is that what is depicted is, unequivocally, the beginning of the bombardment.

 

I don't have my books but it clearly stated that Saul and co felt there was no need to run for cover.

You are correct, that's what it says. It's just that I, personally, feel that it's there for drama. As stated before, I feel that it would have been poor form for "Galaxy in Flames" to end with Saul and his remaining men heading to a hangar's safety to ride out the proverbial storm. "Fulgrim" arrives later, to qualify what happened there.

 

Even if the bombs began on the other side of town, they still had injured brothers to help along ....

No offense, but I think that's an assumption. Consider how much time passes during the various orbital assaults. The traitors had enough time to extract their entire force. We're going to assume that Saul left his cripples in the open during all that time?

 

Lucius only discusses the possibility for any who might have survived the bombing having a way to get of the planet. It is the fact that they leave room at all for survivors that sheds any light on Sauls situation. What ever saved Saul form death was not him taking cover.

Now, I'm sorry, but this is simply incorrect. In the conversation between Lucius and Eidolon, the two specifically refer to the hangar as the way by which Rylanor might survive, and assert--without any means of qualifying their view--that he would nonetheless be trapped down there. I'm not sure how you arrive a the conclusion that "cover" (which isn't a very accurate way of describing a hangar deep underground :D ) is not the way they could have been saved. It's a gimme by the author, and I don't see how it can be trumped by a hypothesis with no supporting evidence. No offense!

 

If they did run for cover that would mean that they wasted valuable time smelling the roses, which was not a trait ever given to the Loyalists. The only thing more valuable then the their lives was their Loyalty to the Emperor and hurting Horus.

How do you arrive at this? The traitors had evacuated the planet. Saul would have been missing no battle... it was an orbital barrage. At this point, we're merely debating how the Astartes would have interpreted their duty to the Emperor. You seem to think that this would be standing in the open, purposely letting themselves get bombed in a symbolic gesture. I think Saul Tarvitz, who strikes me very much as a realist (remember, when he yells "is that the worst you can do?" he doesn't feel bravado and sees his troops misinterpreted his exclamation), would be above such things. A commander deeply concerned about his warriors, he would have gladly sent them to safety when there was no battle to be had, and would have hoped for the best: eventual rescue, and a chance for payback!

 

Cheers,

P.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Horus gave the order to bomb the city, Lornier, not the Loyalists. He wanted a final demonstration of his victory, and what better way of doing that than by bombing everything they had just fought over into oblivion? He was being thorough. That doesn't mean he fired a single salvo in the general direction of the remaining Loyalists, it meant he opened fire, targetting everywhere they could potentially be still hiding, and not stopping until that area was less than rubble. To do anything less would have been seen as weakness, letting his enemy live.

 

So sure, Shrouding could help against a single shot. That doesn't change the fact that Horus would have fired dozens upon dozens of shots down at the city, to obliterate the Loyalists within.

[Tutteman]

Well Walkier, we may as well thrash some more ;)

I'll avoid the psyker argument though, we didn't really get far with that, but why would shrouding have any affect, horus is not targeting people or even squads, he's targetting a darn city! Cities don't move much, so he has all the targeting data he needs, shrouding just makes people miss or not be able to see the GK (I think :P I don't run GK) Horus is going to wipe a city off the map, not try and take out a army or even a few blocks. The city, he knows where it is, not even bad guy henchmen can miss that!

 

DH Codex pg8, The Shrouding. "Guess range weapons and ordnance weapons fire as normal but double their scatter distance if the Grey Knights are out side the spotting ranged rolled."

 

I disagree that Horus and friends were not targeting the loyalists. Horus was not mad at buildings. If they were in a different place the city would have been left alone. Also it is not my argument that Horus missed the city. It states clearly that he hit the city many times. I'm just saying that the bombs that would have hit the loyalists were pushed aside by the hand of the Emperor.

Guess range weapons don't tecnaly target people. The ordnance templates for guess range weapons don't have to be placed on top of models. The effect of the Shrouding has nothing to do with those shooting the weapons only the faith of those it protects. If you placed a ordinance template right next to Grey Knights but not touching them it would not be effected by the Shrouding. only templates that are placed over them, have their distance doubled.

 

 

So only template specifically targeted at people get shrouded...surely that merely reinforces my argument. Horus is not targeting, not in the normal sense, he is literally picking an area on a map (which he already must have decent targetting info on) and blowing it apart.

 

"psychic resonance also serve to confound the perception of any enemy, resulting in an effect called the Shrouding. " So shrouding confuses people making them miss, it at no point reachs out and moves them so they miss, it merely confuses enemy targeting...now unless the few hundred marines left can create a big enough shrouding to confuse all of horus' targeting devices...and somehow make horus not simply resort to simple maths to target instead... If nothing else horus would just blanket the entire region. As I've already said :D

 

Anyways, Lokebn comments upon horus' final bombing, he refers to it (in his mind) as typical of horus. It's a ego thing, he wants everyone to KNOW that he won. No survivors, no annoying loose ends to be threats later. And so he orders the whole damned city to be removed from the face of the planet. And having commited his ego to that, he won't stop till he got what he wanted.

[Starblayde]

OK, we're starting to go around in circles here. Every time there is agreement to disagree about what we draw from the that we don't explicitly follow Tarvitz & Co and Loken being blown to smithereens, up comes the 'But they might be secret Psykers, suddenly manifesting themselves in exactly the right specific trained power (omg with a name in the actual rules) to prevent just them against the bombardment' argument. You can probably tell which side of that I subscribe to, anyways.

 

We like our heroes to stick around for the next books because of the time we've invested in them, how sympathetic we are with them, etc. It'd be awesome to see them standing on the battlements of the Emperor's Palace fighting off hordes of the things, or taking the Garro route and (presumably) being part of the start-up of the Inquisition, but not all heroes can share that destiny.

 

Loken is a broken and twisted mass of flesh and armour. Even with his enhanced anatomy, the fight with Abaddon has left him with mortal wounds so the best he could hope for is to be entombed within a Dreadnought. Saul & Co's story is, if anything, a little more heroic. They've played their part, they've got the warning out to the wider Imperium (they hope), they've delayed the Warmaster's armies for as long as they can manage. They've survived a virus bombing and firestorm and World Eater Beserkers to the face, they've done everything they can possibly do and more, and now they're going to be obliterated. There are few things more heroic in this situation than to resign yourself to taking an orbital bombardment on the chin, having fought every enemy put in front of you and accomplished more than you could have dreamed possible. It's a heroic sacrifice, it's a dying moment of awesome. Leave their final moments be, both debaters and authors alike, and they can rest in peace as heroes of the Emperor, loyal to the last.