Saul still alive?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I agree with Tutteman. It isn't tragic if hundreds of unnamed soldiers die, because the audience has no connection to them. It's bad, sure, but not tragic. It's like that quote: one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic. What people seem to want to do is keep the "million", but not the "one".

You say it isn't plot armour for Saul and Loken to both survive, because so many others died. However, lets have a look at how many important characters go to Istvaan as defenders:

Lucius, joins the rebels.

Rylanor, hides in a hangar.

Loken, supposedly lives.

Saul, supposedly lives.

Every important character going down there apparently lives now. That isn't tragedy, thats showing that if you've done stuff in the book previously, you'll live to do more stuff no matter what you face.

 

What about Ehrlen, Ullis Temeter, Huron-Fal, Solomon Demeter, Tarik Torgaddon? They are all dead, Where they any lees important pre Isstavan? I don't think so. Every impotant character dose not live as i see it.

Also, the Shrouding thing is just taking your aready shaky psyker argument beyond belief. Not only are Loken and Garro psykers, but so are all the then-survivors of the Istvaan massacres, in enough numbers to basically form a shield stopping a barrage that will level the damn city from hitting them? Is there anybody you don't believe was a psyker? Hell, perhaps the entire Luna Wolf Legion was psychic, but were told not to use their powers after Istvaan?

Well now that you mention it.... It was not the Entire Luna Wolves just all of the "Sons" of Horus. The Clone Sons of Horus to be Exact. I happen to think that is why the XVI Legion was the "Best." It was not on Isstavan that they were told not to use their powers but on Nikaea

[Lord_Caerolion]

What about Ehrlen, Ullis Temeter, Huron-Fal, Solomon Demeter, Tarik Torgaddon? They are all dead, Where they any lees important pre Isstavan? I don't think so. Every impotant character dose not live as i see it.

Shh you! -_- I wrote that way, way too late at night, and knew I'd forgotten some characters. As again though, the only one of those that were actually important for the series beforehand were Torgaddon and Solomon. All the others were simply background characters, in the grand scale of things. Of course, this is coming from a guy who hasn't read the books in a while, and doesn't have easy access to them.

 

 

Well now that you mention it.... It was not the Entire Luna Wolves just all of the "Sons" of Horus. The Clone Sons of Horus to be Exact. I happen to think that is why the XVI Legion was the "Best." It was not on Isstavan that they were told not to use their powers but on Nikaea

 

Well, other than the fact that the only proof pointing to the Sons being psykers is your wishing, yeah. Horus isn't psychic, or if he was it was an almost negligable ability. Abaddon has never been said to be psychic. Little Horus has never been said to be psychic. Your argument has come from wanting Loken to be psychic, and then stretching it to being the Mournival being psychic, and now all "Sons" of Horus being psychic.

I'll repeat again, the "Sons" thing is not uncommon with geneseed. Certain physical traits are sometimes transferred through the seed, making the implantee resemble the Primarch slightly. Why do you think all Night Lords and Raven Guard have black hair, even though that isn't something effected by the organs? We also have cases of personality traits being passed down through geneseed, such as Iron Warriors and paranoia, and Night Lords and melancholy. The "Sons" aren't clones.

 

 

And as for the "after Istvaan, I repeat my lack of sleep. Damn insomnia...

[lee265]

Just to shoot a battle ship sized hole in your cloned sons of horus were psykers and that's how it is Loken wasn't a clone son and the book makes a big deal out of it. The first non "son of horus" to attain a position in the mounival.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

What about Ehrlen, Ullis Temeter, Huron-Fal, Solomon Demeter, Tarik Torgaddon? They are all dead, Where they any lees important pre Isstavan? I don't think so. Every impotant character dose not live as i see it.

Shh you! :rolleyes: I wrote that way, way too late at night, and knew I'd forgotten some characters. As again though, the only one of those that were actually important for the series beforehand were Torgaddon and Solomon. All the others were simply background characters, in the grand scale of things. Of course, this is coming from a guy who hasn't read the books in a while, and doesn't have easy access to them.

Oh no you don't. just because they were in the series for less pages and got a shorter script dose not mean they were less important. Their rank and status in their legion was made Very clear. Even if you just accept Torgaddon and Solomon then you have to admit that not all of the characters that mattered survived. My favorite on that list was Demeter.

 

 

Well now that you mention it.... It was not the Entire Luna Wolves just all of the "Sons" of Horus. The Clone Sons of Horus to be Exact. I happen to think that is why the XVI Legion was the "Best." It was not on Isstavan that they were told not to use their powers but on Nikaea

 

Well, other than the fact that the only proof pointing to the Sons being psykers is your wishing, yeah. Horus isn't psychic, or if he was it was an almost negligable ability. Abaddon has never been said to be psychic. Little Horus has never been said to be psychic. Your argument has come from wanting Loken to be psychic, and then stretching it to being the Mournival being psychic, and now all "Sons" of Horus being psychic.

I'll repeat again, the "Sons" thing is not uncommon with geneseed. Certain physical traits are sometimes transferred through the seed, making the implantee resemble the Primarch slightly. Why do you think all Night Lords and Raven Guard have black hair, even though that isn't something effected by the organs? We also have cases of personality traits being passed down through geneseed, such as Iron Warriors and paranoia, and Night Lords and melancholy. The "Sons" aren't clones.

 

 

And as for the "after Istvaan, I repeat my lack of sleep. Damn insomnia...

 

 

Just to shoot a battle ship sized hole in your cloned sons of horus were psykers and that's how it is Loken wasn't a clone son and the book makes a big deal out of it. The first non "son of horus" to attain a position in the mounival.

Please lets not let this thread get stopped because we where talking about ...that other Survivor. This a Tarvitz Thread. I would LOVE to talk about the Sons more but just not here. There is a plenty good thread to still do that in i think. If not I'm sure one will spring back up.

[wjanson2k]

Please lets not let this thread get stopped because we where talking about ...that other Survivor. This a Tarvitz Thread. I would LOVE to talk about the Sons more but just not here. There is a plenty good thread to still do that in i think. If not I'm sure one will spring back up.

 

My first post but I have to say, you brought up the issue of Loken being a literal 'Son' of Horus and someone has come along and pointed out he actually wasn't so now you refuse to discuss it. Isn't that a bit of a cop out? It's not off topic, if someone is asking if Saul survives, then it's bound to have comparisons to Loken brought up, if you're saying he was saved because of Lokens psyker abilities then it's fair game to question it isn't it?

[Tutteman]

What about Ehrlen, Ullis Temeter, Huron-Fal, Solomon Demeter, Tarik Torgaddon? They are all dead, Where they any lees important pre Isstavan? I don't think so. Every impotant character dose not live as i see it.

Shh you! :) I wrote that way, way too late at night, and knew I'd forgotten some characters. As again though, the only one of those that were actually important for the series beforehand were Torgaddon and Solomon. All the others were simply background characters, in the grand scale of things. Of course, this is coming from a guy who hasn't read the books in a while, and doesn't have easy access to them.

Oh no you don't. just because they were in the series for less pages and got a shorter script dose not mean they were less important. Their rank and status in their legion was made Very clear. Even if you just accept Torgaddon and Solomon then you have to admit that not all of the characters that mattered survived. My favorite on that list was Demeter.

 

Yes but none of these characters is really explored extensively. We don't empathise with them nearly as much as say Tarvitz, or Loken. What we are talking about it characters who are the focus of the story, the ones we spend a large amount of time listening to the thought of.

 

A point about the sons, we can discuss the supposed sons and their alledged psyker powers as you claim this is how they survived. The reason I don't like your arguments Lord Lorne Walkier is that you start with a wish, and then find an argument to support it. I suppose now that the "battle lines" have been drawn I also am more focused on a set view, so this is hardly unique to you, but still, you see my problem. Frankly I see no way for Saul to survive. The Shroud is irrelevent as no one is a psyker in the vicinity and even if they somehow survive the bombs they must survive on a hostile world with no way to replace supplies and so stave. I'm sorry but I can't see anyone surviving in a meaningful way.

[Ruck]

I think that Saul is dead. He was a good character. as said, when the good characters die, the event means much more. I do think there is a chance for survivors from Istvaan that might use Tarvitz's memory to fight back.

 

As for the discussion someone mentioned about the underground hangar and retreating there, it would not need to be a warp capable craft. All they would need is a ship the punch out into orbit to signal for help for someone to pick up. If I recall, in Flight of the Eisenstein, Dorn sends Sigismund to Istvaan 3 to see what happened and possibly check for survivors.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Sual Tarvitz is dead.. I killed and baked him into a pie...

 

On a serious note, why is it some people always want the 'hero' to survive?

I don't knock this really, but sometimes the hero does actually die having achieved nothing...

[Tutteman]

I think that Saul is dead. He was a good character. as said, when the good characters die, the event means much more. I do think there is a chance for survivors from Istvaan that might use Tarvitz's memory to fight back.

 

As for the discussion someone mentioned about the underground hangar and retreating there, it would not need to be a warp capable craft. All they would need is a ship the punch out into orbit to signal for help for someone to pick up. If I recall, in Flight of the Eisenstein, Dorn sends Sigismund to Istvaan 3 to see what happened and possibly check for survivors.

 

Hmm, but they are recalled before they can reach there I believe, otherwise Sigismund could not me there at mars, and I think he would have had his butt handed to him by Horus if he had turned up. Horus and co stuck about for months in the istvaan system according to Fallen Angels, it is I suppose a possiblity that strike force vessel from the raven guard/salamanders/iron hands could have picked them up, but they would of had to have survived the second waves ships betraying them, probably with total surprise. Stupidly unlikely really, any retreating first wavers would be rather more interested in getting the hell out of the system then finding a small ship carrying people who CLAIM to be loyal to the emperor...more likely to gun them out of space in my opinion.

[Ruck]

I thought Mechanicum took place before Galaxy in Flames/Eisenstein. because Regulus returned in one of the book pledging the Fabricator Generals allegiance.

 

Beside the point. I did not realize they lingered in Istvaan for so long. I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens for the rest of the heresy. granted we know the end pretty well.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Please lets not let this thread get stopped because we where talking about ...that other Survivor. This a Tarvitz Thread. I would LOVE to talk about the Sons more but just not here. There is a plenty good thread to still do that in i think. If not I'm sure one will spring back up.

 

It isn't irrelevant. You are the one that claimed that Tarvitz survived because the psyker Sons of Horus manifested the Shrouding. We refuted your claim that all "Sons" are psychic. Unless of course you want to expand your claims and have all Istvaan Loyalists be psykers.

 

Lastly, merely because someone has rank does not in any way make them important in a story. For example, Night Haunter got a passing mention in Galaxy in Flames, or whatever novel it was. Surely, being a Primarch, he is therefore vital to the novel. In reality, he isn't vital to the novel. You could remove the passing mention, and the book would work fine.

Simply because someone is a Captain or whatnot doesn't make them vital to a novel. It improves their importance in the setting, but not the novel. We care about characters in books because of what we're shown of them, not what ranks we're told they have.

[Tutteman]

I thought Mechanicum took place before Galaxy in Flames/Eisenstein. because Regulus returned in one of the book pledging the Fabricator Generals allegiance.

 

Beside the point. I did not realize they lingered in Istvaan for so long. I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens for the rest of the heresy. granted we know the end pretty well.

 

To be honest i was surprised at the timescale of the heresy, thought of it more as a lightning strike from the imperials, with a quick counter attack driving for terra, but then again it probably is fast for a war across a entire galaxy :lol: I think that Mechanicum was more spread out...think :D

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Please lets not let this thread get stopped because we where talking about ...that other Survivor. This a Tarvitz Thread. I would LOVE to talk about the Sons more but just not here. There is a plenty good thread to still do that in i think. If not I'm sure one will spring back up.

 

It isn't irrelevant. You are the one that claimed that Tarvitz survived because the psyker Sons of Horus manifested the Shrouding. We refuted your claim that all "Sons" are psychic. Unless of course you want to expand your claims and have all Istvaan Loyalists be psykers.

 

I do indeed wish to expand my claim. I never ment to imply that it was only the loyal Luna Wolves/ "sons" that where psykers. I think the survivors across the board in all the legions present, had repressed psykers. Luna wolves, Emperors Children, World Eaters and Death Guard. Yes, I do have a belief that the Luna Wolves had more repressed psykers then the other legions because the presences of the Clone sons of Horus, but they would not have accounted for all of the psykers as some might have been like Loken, and not have resembled Horus at all. I never said the reason i thought Loken was a psyker was because he was a "son". The reason i thought he had powers is because Horus choose him to be in the Mournival. And i think that The Mournival was what was left of the Luna Wolf Lirbriaum after the the psykers were command to stop using their powers post Nikae. It was the fact that the Mournival was all "sons" prior to Loken that got me started to think that the "Sons" had a higher number of Psykers then normal. I think Tarvitz was also one of these who had repressed powers. He shows he has the "right stuff" on a number of occasions, like when he beats Lucius in the fight on Isstavan III. I know it dose not say anywhere explicitly that he dose have theses powers it just seems to fit for me. Just me trying to read between the lines.

 

Maybe I am wrong about the Whole psyker thing........ but then again for my theory to be right first i needed Survivors form Isstavan III. That was the hardest part to come true. We know now that this will happen. So if we know now that their are survivors, i think we should be talking about what happens to theses Survivors not about our Wish one way or another for them to be dead or alive. If there are some ideas about what would happen to them that do not have them becoming Grey Knights, lets hear them. Maybe they fight their way off planet to die to a group of Dark Eldar and are never recognized for their heroism. Maybe they starve to death on a ship waiting to be rescued. maybe they never make it off the planet and are still there in suspended animation. Maybe they turn traitor and hook up with Horus. Maybe they go join the Greater Good.

My idea is they become Grey Knights.

 

Lastly, merely because someone has rank does not in any way make them important in a story. For example, Night Haunter got a passing mention in Galaxy in Flames, or whatever novel it was. Surely, being a Primarch, he is therefore vital to the novel. In reality, he isn't vital to the novel. You could remove the passing mention, and the book would work fine.

Simply because someone is a Captain or whatnot doesn't make them vital to a novel. It improves their importance in the setting, but not the novel. We care about characters in books because of what we're shown of them, not what ranks we're told they have.

Was Night Haunter listed as "Dramatis Personae?" the Astates i listed were. There are many people unimportant to the story that are talked about in passing that held important rank, all the way up to the Emperor. The point i tired to make is that people like Ehrlen, Ullis Temeter and Solomon Demeter were as important to the over all story as Tarviz. They all had similar stories and should have satisfied the need to see likable important hero's die. They where all listed as "Dramatis Personae." Their deaths, by definition, were vital to the novel.

 

Edit to fix spelling of Mournival :)

[Tutteman]

Please lets not let this thread get stopped because we where talking about ...that other Survivor. This a Tarvitz Thread. I would LOVE to talk about the Sons more but just not here. There is a plenty good thread to still do that in i think. If not I'm sure one will spring back up.

 

It isn't irrelevant. You are the one that claimed that Tarvitz survived because the psyker Sons of Horus manifested the Shrouding. We refuted your claim that all "Sons" are psychic. Unless of course you want to expand your claims and have all Istvaan Loyalists be psykers.

 

I do indeed wish to expand my claim. I never ment to imply that it was only the loyal Luna Wolves/ "sons" that where psykers. I think the survivors across the board in all the legions present, had repressed psykers. Luna wolves, Emperors Children, World Eaters and Death Guard. Yes, I do have a belief that the Luna Wolves had more repressed psykers then the other legions because the presences of the Clone sons of Horus, but they would not have accounted for all of the psykers as some might have been like Loken, and not have resembled Horus at all. I never said the reason i thought Loken was a psyker was because he was a "son". The reason i thought he had powers is because Horus choose him to be in the Mornival. And i think that The Morinval was what was left of the Luna Wolf Lirbriaum after the the psykers were command to stop using their powers post Nikae. It was the fact that the Mornival was all "sons" prior to Loken that got me started to think that the "Sons" had a higher number of Psykers then normal. I think Tarvitz was also one of these who had repressed powers. He shows he has the "right stuff" on a number of occations, like when he beats Lucius in the fight on Isstavan III. I know it dose not say anyware explicitly tha he dose have theses powers it just seems to fit for me. Just me trying to read between the lines.

 

Maybe I am wrong about the Whole psyker thing........ but then again for my theory to be right first i needed Survivors form Isstavan III. That was the hardest part to come true. We know now that this will happen. So if we know now that their are survivors, i think we should be talking about what happens to theses Survivors not about our Wish one way or another for them to be dead or alive. If there are some ideas about what would happen to them that do not have them becoming Grey Knights, lets hear them. Maybe they fight their way off planet to die to a group of Dark Eldar and are never recognized for their heroism. Maybe they starve to death on a ship waiting to be rescued. maybe they never make it off the planet and are still there in suspended animation. Maybe they turn traitor and hook up with Horus. Maybe they go join the Greater Good.

My idea is they become Grey Knights.

 

Lastly, merely because someone has rank does not in any way make them important in a story. For example, Night Haunter got a passing mention in Galaxy in Flames, or whatever novel it was. Surely, being a Primarch, he is therefore vital to the novel. In reality, he isn't vital to the novel. You could remove the passing mention, and the book would work fine.

Simply because someone is a Captain or what not doesn't make them vital to a novel. It improves their importance in the setting, but not the novel. We care about characters in books because of what we're shown of them, not what ranks we're told they have.

Was Night Haunter listed as "Dramatis Personae?" the Astates i listed were. There are many people unimportant to the story that are talked about in passing that held important rank, all the way up to the Emperor. The point i tired to make is that people like Ehrlen, Ullis Temeter and Solomon Demeter were as important to the over all story as Tarviz. They all had similar stories and should have satisfied the need to see likable important hero's die. They where all listed as "Dramatis Personae." Their deaths, by definition, were vital to the novel.

 

Mournival :tu: Anyways, I see no reason that Loken was chosen for Psyker abilities, he was chosen because he was needed to keep the humours of the mournival in balance, Dorn tell loken this. No where does it suggest that loken was psyker or for that matter ANY of the Mournival...hell I have no reason to believe there are ANY psykers on Istvaan! Loken is NOT a psyker, i mean come on, he beats one arrogant guy in a fight and suddenly he's the most powerful psykers since the emperor! And there is even less evidence to suggest that any other people on istvaan are psykers.

 

And quite frankly, they are less important, none of them are empathised with beyond the "Oh they're a soldier about to be betrayed by their own high command". Sure they are good characters, they die well, so why not let other characters die even better? Ehrlen is a WE captain, we don't even read his thoughts except for him thinking about how it's a great fun game ot slaughter the entire population of Choral City? No empathy for him from me. Ullis is much better, he is shown as an honourable man, staunch terran, loyal to the and dying so that more of his men can get to shelter instead of him, however this lasts about a page...compared to Tarvitz's many pages...get the idea? It's no tragedy for a mad butcher like Ehrlen to die, sure he has honour in his own way but he is still a man who relishs slaughter and looks forward to it! Loken (as an example), however is shown many times wondering at the waste of war, the deaths of men. This is the things we love about characters

[Simonius]

Over on the BL forums, one of the authors involved in the HH series said that at a recent HH meeting with the other authors, he had come (reluctantly) to understand how Loken might survive and re-appear - not that he necessarily will, but effectively confirmed that Saul was a goner - the tragic hero of Istvaan 3.

[The emperors chosen]

People have brought up the hanger that Rylanor was mentioned to be guarding, but here's my idea: He(Rylanor) and a few marines, used it. I would imagine it can't be that big(it was only for Praal), and if suddenly there are no more marines left, Horus will have no need to stay there, so Saul tells Rylanor and a group of marines"go to terra, we will hold them off", maybe they took a librarian with them, it has never been mentioned that there were not marine libby's on Istvaan(And if there are none, sorry). Just my .02 imperial credits

[Whylie]

I read it as Saul being dead for certain, Loken could be either way, Rylanor is hibernating in the underground hanger Saul sent him to guard.

[sporty313]

I actually find it hard to see where they could fit Saul or Garviel back into any future stories anyhow!

 

I did really enjoy both characters as wells as Garro who seemed to also be a steele eyed ninja and the authors made an ace job of making the audience like them i think thats why so many readers are in the hope they make a return

 

I also think its prudent for the good guys to pass away sometimes as it doesn't leave you opening every book thinking that the hero always lives taking away the mystery and shock as the rest of the less mentioned characters are gonna get bumped off periodically leaving the main guy alive for maybe another book then you wouldn't find it as thought prevoking at the end.

 

I certianly was gutted when Loken popped his clogs but by the emperor it was a fine book.

[Whylie]

LOKEN LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!................... the Abnett says it is so.

[Phoebus]

"This death," rasped the voder, "this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory."

 

That, to me, is the defined and stated scene of defiance and sacrifice in the face of Horus' betrayal on Isstvan III. It is Captain Temeter and Huron-Fal who demonstrably represent the loss of the Heresy (to this point).

 

Saul Tarvitz, on the other hand, has his ultimate fate left in limbo by the fact that the author himself leaves us information that begs for a follow-up. Just what was the point of mentioning Ancient Rylanor was sent to guard some mysterious hangar if what was shown on that battle was the end-all, be-all?

 

Garviel Loken was certainly severely injured, but by no means were his wounds necessarily fatal. Of the many implants the Space Marines receive, one has the specific function of putting them in a coma to survive even mortal wounds for extended periods of time. There's a reason why most Astartes fatalities are very dramatic and extreme: decapitations (Torgannon), disintegrations, the destruction of most of one's body, immolation, etc., seem to be the standard for what it takes for a Space Marine to die. Space Marines, simply put, die hard.

 

At any rate, it's not a case of people "wishing" those characters would "come back" to life; people on both sides of this debate are doing nothing more than expressing their opinions and tastes on the matter (which I respect, don't get me wrong). Some people just don't care for the concept that these loyalists made it through Isstvan III. C'est la vie. Fact of the matter is, though, that in neither case would survival be impossible.

[Donkey Kong]

Whylie

 

1. Irrelevant to this thread.

2. His exact words were "Anyone who tells you he's never coming back is a liar." This can be interpreted multiple ways, the biggest and probably most common being that there is going to be another Horus Heresy book which takes place before the Heresy and will involve Loken. Alternatively, Loken can be referenced by Garro (or his accompanying remembrancers/ Qruze) who is known to be alive.

 

I'd like to think that Saul is dead. A tragic demise for a hero of the Imperium.

I also don't like the idea being brought up that Loken, the Sons of Horus/ Death Guard/ Emperor's Children/ World Eaters had enough repressed psykers (or any at all for that matter) who could have saved everyone. First of all, the Sons of Horus (Horus's look alikes like Aximand, Abaddon, etc.) were never stated to be his clones. In fact it's never even suggested. It's almost like saying that because the Emperor's Children or Blood Angels look beautiful (like their Primarch) they're clones of their Primarch. It's not even silly, it's basically wrong.

 

I honestly don't know how they'd incorporate the Isstvan III loyalists (even if some did survive). I'd like a book continuing with Garro on the Phalanx, and I'd love a novel taking place towards the beginning of the Great Crusade with one of the original remembrancers (just some average joe who said "I want to be a part of something bigger than myself and record the events that are going to shape the future!"

 

Regardless, I like the explanation stated a bit back, sorry I can't say who said it:

 

Paraphrase: Loken, Saul, Demeter, Ehrlen, Temeter and all of those that remained loyal are the unsung heroes of the Horus Heresy. They are the tragedy that makes us care.

 

And to paraphrase another: It wouldn't matter if all of the characters we really cared about lived. It mattered in Gaunt's Ghosts when Bragg died because we liked Bragg. When the line goes " . . . and two ghosts fell." We shrug and move on with the rest of the battle. It didn't matter in Battle for the Abyss[/b] when one of the World Eaters held off the Word Bearers, because Skrall and the Ultramarine moved on. It didn't matter when two World Eaters were overrun by Daemons, because Skrall lived. It didn't matter when the member of Nero's squad died because Nero and Loken lived.

 

Like it or not, characters who have grown with the story influence it a lot more when they die, because a part of the story dies with them, and we miss that part and we see the tragedy that comes with it and we see the people wish that it wasn't so.

 

my two cents.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Saul Tarvitz, on the other hand, has his ultimate fate left in limbo by the fact that the author himself leaves us information that begs for a follow-up. Just what was the point of mentioning Ancient Rylanor was sent to guard some mysterious hangar if what was shown on that battle was the end-all, be-all?

 

Oh, you mean the "open-ended limbo" of Tarvitz not bothering to move into cover in the face of a massive orbital bombardment, because he knew it would be no use? With the final words of "Did we hurt them Tarvitz?" "Yes, yes we did", or something along those lines?

People seem to underestimate the actual strength of these bombardments. These things are strong enough to topple cities, but somehow they aren't enough to kill a few Marines? They're practically nukes! Seriously, I don't care how much armour you have, being at ground zero of a nuke strike is going to kill you dead. It will topple the building you're hiding in on top of you, blow it apart, and then blow you apart.

Combine that in Tarvitz's case in that he was standing in the open. He has no protection other than his power armour, which is nowhere near enough. Sure, he's a Space Marine. Sure, he has the implants. They don't protect from that though. What protects you from that is not being there. Unfortunately, he didn't have that protection.

[Phoebus]

I don't think I underestimate the strength of those bombardments. I simply take away Eidolon and Lucius' thoughts on their effects: they quite clearly don't see Rylanor's survival as an impossibility, choosing rather to dismiss its import on the basis that he would be buried wherever he was.

 

Now, it's up to you to decide how likely this is. Neither Eidolon nor Lucius strike me as very grounded individuals by the time "Fulgrim" occurs, and I'm rather loathe to accept a first-approximation decision by either of them, regarding the escape routes of a place they never saw at that. Being forced to choose between their arrogant dismissiveness and the author practically giving me a "wink-wink, nudge-nudge", I think that I'll take the latter.

 

As to the location of Saul and his survivors? I have a different outlook given what's described. The author states that the northern part of the city is being bombed while Tarvitz & co. are watching, and that "towers of flame" were closing in on them with "fiery inevitability." Now, if your argument is that, come closing moments of the book Saul Tarvitz and his men are watching the bombing going on, then I certainly won't argue with the obvious. If your argument is that Saul Tarvitz and his men most definitely sat out in the open and got plastered by the firepower of Horus' fleet, though, I'll agree to disagree with you. It's not described, and I don't think it's a given that they did so. At least not after the little addendum "Fulgrim" provides/

 

In closing, yes, at the end of "Galaxy in Flames" I did believe that Tarvitz was most certainly dead. Graham McNeill's inclusion of Lucius and Eidolon's conversation about the hangar and Rylanor, though, and their open acceptance that someone could have survived the bombing in said hangar, casts shadow on that idea.

 

To me, at least. :D

 

Does that mean I'll somehow be horribly disappointed if Saul, Loken, etc., are dead as doornails? Of course not. But neither will I be surprised if superhuman space marines manage to make their way to far-underground hangars and somehow manage to ride out the conflagration. ;)

[Starblayde]

People seem to underestimate the actual strength of these bombardments. These things are strong enough to topple cities, but somehow they aren't enough to kill a few Marines? They're practically nukes! Seriously, I don't care how much armour you have, being at ground zero of a nuke strike is going to kill you dead

ZOMG Saul Tarvitz NUKED RIGHT IN THE FACE and still alive?!

 

Yes, of course. :D

 

Saul died in open during the bombardment with his men, with a quiet and heroic resignation that they'd done their best and made a difference. The already half-dead Loken will have died there, too (and, guess what, neither were Pskyers either!) and the only one named who may have survived will have been Rylanor, the Dreadnaught, in the hanger.

 

That does give them possibilities for bringing new characters in who survived the bombardment, but if either of our two favourite non-traitors inexplicably manage to survive, then I will sigh the sigh of a man who reads a ruined story with outrageous plot events - even for the 40k Universe.

[Lord_Caerolion]

snip

It deliberately states they don't move though! They don't move for cover because they acknowledge that it won't save them! That doesn't mean they sit and watch the fireworks, then go for a leisurely stroll down to the hangar out back. It means that anything remotely possible of saving them is out of reach. Otherwise, they would have ran for it as soon as the bombardment began. The fact that they didn't means that they had the good grace to know when they were utterly beaten.

 

You say you choose to believe a "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" given by the authors through unstable characters. I choose to believe the "we may have fought you and lost, but others will rise to challenge you. This fight isn't over" given by the authors through Tarvitz himself. A first-hand account of "we're going to die from this, no matter what" is much, much more reliable than a second-hand "there may or may not have been something that may or may not be capable of saving them" from characters who are far from sane.

 

Personally, I loved the heroism of the image of the final stand of the Istvaan Loyalists. Sentries call out as enemy lander craft begin their retreat. Soon though, one Marine yells out the spotting of the falling bombardment. As the pillars of light begin to obliterate the city around them, the Loyalists rise from their bunkers, facing their death head-on. They stood firm, alone and unsupported, fighting purely for the hope that though they will inevitably lose the battle, that through their actions the war will be won. Inevitable death plummets towards them, and yet they stand tall, banners held high, giving Horus that final message and challenge. He may have killed them, but he never once broke them.