DarKnight Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Sure are alot of heretics on this site... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonius Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Erebus lied - but plausibly! The big E is a conundrum, we simply don't have enough information on him yet to judge his motives. But for the record here is my take. The Emperor was born in Anatolia (Turkey) around 8000BC (according to the christian calendar). His psychic abilities come from the spirit essence of the thousands of anti-chaos shamans who sacrificed themselves so that he could be born. They saw the need for a mighty anti chaos single champion for humanity, rather than the lesser beings that they individually were. A sort of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts kind of thing. I mean, imagine the psychic power of a Tigurius or Mephiston multiplied by thousands - and you get somewhere near the Emperor's capability, he doesn't need to have done a deal with Chaos. However, at this time, he's a newborn. He needs to learn and grow. Due to his greater power, this takes a long, long time. Gradually he starts to experiment with his power to shape the world and events around him. We have seen hints in various fluff that he influenced many events of our history - past, present and future. But at these times he generally prefers to work as the power behind the throne and not directly. Over time he learns that this approach isn't working. Possibly during the golden age of technology he doesn't think he really needs to act as everything for humanity seems to be going pretty well, at first anyway. Mankind is expanding out from earth and conquering the galaxy and it only a matter of time before man rules it all. Maybe at this time he's out and about across the galaxy learning stuff - visiting ancient civilisations, learning about the warp and chaos, the black library even - not actually on Terra at all. Then the age of strife hits and chaos descends on the galaxy - quite literally. He needs to act more directly. But it takes time to go from the behind the scenes guy to the power at the helm. Gradually he builds up his power base and takes on the task of re-unifying Terra, beating the warlords and all that stuff. What about the Emperor's precognition, his foresight, I hear you ask? Well, I've been thinking about this too. Again, we don't have a clear idea of how it works. But let's speculate. This ability to see the future must be about possibilities. If I do this, then this will result, sort of thing. When working behind the scenes, the big E is trying to influence events, not act directly upon them. Maybe he's having to learn this ability, learn to trust it, wait for a number of times of it going as predicted before he relies on it to guide his actions directly. Maybe he doesn't "see" the specifics of events just the general flow of major events over time. Maybe he only sees the nexus/decision points where big stuff is needed. We know from fluff that by the time of the Heresy that his vision is being clouded in some way - maybe the chaos powers interfering, maybe his own inevitable near-death (can't see beyond). In terms of motives - well, the Emperor sees one narrow and difficult path (and not necessarily a pleasant one) that will see humanity survive and triumph, but he's still (just about) human beneath all that and still subject to the same foibles and weaknesses that the rest of us have - he can and does make mistakes occasionally, he can contradict himself, he can do things due to petty emotions - even when his vision tells him to do otherwise. Did he see the Heresy coming, did he want to be worshipped as a god? We just don't know, we haven't seen enough of him yet. It seems to me though that his experience tells him that religion is a powerful thing, but has caused more trouble than its worth. So he takes the line of science and reason (for the most part) until the time that man is so unified that there will only be one religion (it's having more than one that seems to cause the problems) - then he can use the power of belief to truly challenge the power and influence of the warp and free humanity forever. So he is a GOOD GUY. So basically, wait and see - we will find some of this out as the Heresy unfolds, but we won't get all the answers because it wouldn't be as much fun if we did, now would it? Erebus lied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soeven001M Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I agree totally with what the man above me just said makes perfect sense and its good reasoning behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cire Verdius Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 In terms of motives - well, the Emperor sees one narrow and difficult path (and not necessarily a pleasant one) that will see humanity survive and triumph, but he's still (just about) human beneath all that and still subject to the same foibles and weaknesses that the rest of us have - he can and does make mistakes occasionally, he can contradict himself, he can do things due to petty emotions - even when his vision tells him to do otherwise. I agree and I'll explain why below the next quote. Did he see the Heresy coming, did he want to be worshipped as a god? We just don't know, we haven't seen enough of him yet. It seems to me though that his experience tells him that religion is a powerful thing, but has caused more trouble than its worth. So he takes the line of science and reason (for the most part) until the time that man is so unified that there will only be one religion (it's having more than one that seems to cause the problems) - then he can use the power of belief to truly challenge the power and influence of the warp and free humanity forever. So he is a GOOD GUY. I believe he did see the heresy, as yet another probably course that reality and history could take. Yet despite his own visions and warnings from Magnus he refused to believe that a Primarch, let alone his favored son, could truly have fallen so and turn against him. From this, I imagine that this is what kept the Emperor from outright killing Horus in their final confrontation, that even bearing witness to the depth of corruption, the murder, and betrayal by Horus that the Emperor still felt it couldn't possibly be true and if so wanted to give him every last chance there was to repent and return to his side. It was only Horus' callous act of annihilating a member of the Custodes (though I always felt the guardsman made a much more significant and memorable slaying) without any inclination of hesitation, did the Emperor see that Horus was beyond redemption. As for some of his other motivations I'll elaborate on a few ideas that have been going through my head lately. The main being that I believe that there was an alternative misson and goal to the Emperor's decree that there were no gods (And rightly so, the Chaos 'gods' are nothing more than unfathomably powerful entities). In the HH novel False Gods, Erebus himself says that the Emperor was causing their domain to diminish and them to suffer and die and if permitted to continue they would no longer be. Granted, this is coming from Erebus and this was also when he was seeking to turn Horus to Chaos, but I do believe there to be some truth to what he said. As for how the Emperor was achieving this goal was by enforcing the Imperial Truth, stripping any worship that may be directly, or indirectly going to the chaos gods while also uniting and bring peace to humanity, the largest influential race in the materiel whose emotions directly effect and give substance to the chaos gods. I like to believe this personally, though it may also have simply been an unintentional side effect of his ways, or perhaps it's not even true at all and Erebus was blowing smoke up Horus' rear. But as I said before, it is the view of the Emperor I like to see. I do believe he had and even still has far more control over what is going on than anyone could have ever thought. He is the shining light of the Imperium, of humanity... and is now a corpse resigned to an eternity upon the golden thrown. I can only hope that he had enough foresight and humility to see that he may one be laid low and have a plan for if such a thing were to occur. For all we know however, the countless faithful of the Imperium may have very well been a back up plan for even now their faithful and zealous worship may be working to raise himself to a status that can threaten even the chaos gods and is simply waiting for his true death. But what's true is yet to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 There is a more sinister option. The Emperor destroyed all known Human religions and denied his own divinity, which paradoxicly encouraged the worship of him. Had the Emperor set himself up as a God you'd have seen widespread rejection of the idea, by denying it he created himself as a Deity. Faith has powerful resonance in the warp, perhaps his plan the whole time was to warp entitiy that rivaled the power of the 4 chaos Gods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelavenger Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 The Emperor as he was before being injured was far more powerful than the 4 chaos gods combined...he didn't need to become a god to beat them; he wasn't called the god-emperor for nothing :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 The Emperor as he was before being injured was far more powerful than the 4 chaos gods combined...he didn't need to become a god to beat them; he wasn't called the god-emperor for nothing :P Actualy he wasn't If he was as powerful as all 4 Chaos Gods, Horus wouldn't of stood a chance of wounding the Emperor, let alone killing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarker Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Well, technically in older fluff about the final battle it´s said "Now the Emperor know why he had been containing itself". This part was deleted on the Collected Visions book, curiously ¬¬U. I just think that he wanted Horus to see the truth... and when he see that this was impossible (and even being seriously injured), he just blow away Horus. With. A. Single.Shot. (a powerfull one, but if he had done it at the beginning of the fight, now we will have heretic dust :P). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juggernaut_7 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 i am kinda new at this as well so please correct me if i am wrong and tell me where i am remotely right i cannot speak about how the emperor came to be because i have not really read that far in the novels or have read some of this information i would like to know if some one would give me the sources. as far as the heresy goes i like to refer to some biblical things jesus foresaw what was going to happen to him and saw that one of his most trusted would turn on him and he knew there would be no other way and he knew he would return and guide his children back into grace. i think that the emperor was in the same boat and that the heresy would reunite and restructure the asartes and the imperium and that it needed to be done. as far as how strong he is and his powers, and how he was equally defeated by horus as he defeated him, i dont understand that completely but with knowledge comes power and as i read the novels the more knowledge comes to me. If someone can guide me to this sources i would greatly appreciate it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cire Verdius Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 There is a more sinister option. The Emperor destroyed all known Human religions and denied his own divinity, which paradoxicly encouraged the worship of him. Had the Emperor set himself up as a God you'd have seen widespread rejection of the idea, by denying it he created himself as a Deity. Our own world doesn't show that to be true however. Despite that though, with the level of power the Emperor possessed (and I mean his control over humanity, not just his physical prowess) it would be far too easy for him to proclaim divinity though there would be dissenters. No, I believe that the Emperor meant precisely what he said in the Imperial Truth. Faith has powerful resonance in the warp, perhaps his plan the whole time was to warp entitiy that rivaled the power of the 4 chaos Gods? That is true, but I do not believe the Emperor ever worked for such selfish intentions. Had he, he could have easily taken reign of humanity long before, instead of waiting so long to unite mankind against the horrors of the galaxy and reality when we would need one such as himself the most. Don't forget, the most likely fluff (the Shaman story) is based upon the self sacrifice of thousands to create the Emperor and while not perfect, is as close to it as humanly possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innus Bade 9 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I have just begun to research this topic. I do know that in earlier additions there was a fifth chaos god named "Malal" hence the "Sons of Malace". The fifth power is also mentioned in that pointy stick and rock throwing game warhammer. The special character Kaleb Daark was in the early additions to warhammer. Strangly enough the symbol is a skull half white and half black. Sound familiar Mechanicus. Just noting the convenient similarities. I have not read mechanicum yet. Please feel free to elaborate and hopefully I didn't go to far off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Marvellous thread. The Emperor was doing a good job in annihilating the four chaos powers without becoming a god himself. A god can only exist if there is someone to worship him and acknowledge his existence - by destroying all religions the Emperor is destroying all Gods. That is why, if you believe, God exists today, but Poseidon doesn't. Both of which did exist, however, at some point during the Emperors life. Of course, that could never happen, because the Emperor himself knew of the Gods, ergo they could never be defeated. I don't think ascension to Godhood was his overriding idea, I think there will be a grain of truth in what Erebus said. The point of chaos, the daemons and their followers is that they do speak the truth, in amongst a thousand lies. For an example of how Chaos could have helped create or accentuate the powers of the Emperor see Horus. Horus became a man to directly rival the Emperor and cripple him through the power of chaos. Both men were almost equal by the time of the final battle. The three chaos gods came in to being around the same time as the Emperor - 8000BC, but the three gods didn't fully awaken until the middle ages, some 9000 years later. Why then was the Emperor created by the shamans to fight the Chaos gods who had not even awakened? What if the three Chaos Gods created the Emperor to promote their existence, to be their Avatar on Earth and unite the people under their banner, at a time when the Chaos gods were more united than they are now. He was to unite Earth then travel the stars promoting Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch - who knows, is it only in the last 10000 years or so that they have become the Gods they are now, perhaps they were the Gods of intelligence, power and life? The Emperor then reneged on his oath to the gods and refused to acknowledge their existence, either before or after Slaanesh was formed and the Eye was created. Maybe someone will be able to tell me, I don't know for sure, but was the Eye of Terror the first gateway to and from the immaterium? If so then until then the Chaos Gods wouldn't really have had a foothold, the Emperor would be free to do as he pleased. Eager to crack on with conquering the galaxy, the Emperor makes the primarchs, they get scattered and the rest becomes history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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