Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[Legatus]

Corax disagreed with the Astartes fleets being watered down, despite not being one of those who disagreed with the division of the Legions. There was more than one sticking point in the Codex, and it was not decided by a simple Yes/No vote. It's reasonable to assume that there are other bits that a Primarch might have initially disagreed with, even if they were in favour of dividing the Legions.

The limitation of fleet assets is part of the whole division of power undertaking as well, though, and not an element of organisational doctrines either.

[TheDarker]

Althouth i would LOVE to enter the eternal "Guilliman good-bad guy" (as an UM player) fray i will not, it´s an endless theme. But i will say one thing: the fate of the Legions was to be splitted, or even disbanded. I can´t remember now where i read it, but somewhere i read that when the Crusade ended, the Emperor has the idea of disbanding the legions or just using it like police (and in small numbers, i suppose). I barely remember Angron thinking (surprise!) that it was an insult to his honor, after so many glory win, disbanding his legion or using it like cops. And that was another point in Angron´s angry table to damnation, if i remember well (tryed to search where it is, but after so many years i have a lot of sources ^_^).

 

 

Also, back on topic, another idea of disapointing-ness: the Iron Hands. His Primarch and his Veterans died, ok, but... well, how many more marines were left? Let´s say... 3000? 4000? Hell, after Istvaan they dissapeared! They didn´t EVEN appear in Terra, they didn´t do... well....NOTHING... just hide in a corner of the galaxy waiting to the Heresy to end...

 

[irony]

I had the theory that Ferrus wanted to be the only ruler of the Imperium. When he knows about the heresy, he decided that it was the perfect time to put his plans in moving. He decided to attack with his veterans, knowing that they were a lot from Terra (well, the olders members of the Legion, the ones who has fighted more time, most probably would be from Earth) and that they will never join him. So he launch his attack, followed with two more legions, knowing that the massacre would be horrible. If he win, he will have a lot less legions to deal with, and if he lose, better, Horus will attack the Emperor doing even more carnage. I´m sure when he knows that the other 4 legions supporting him were traitors, he smile thinking on the end: Horus reaching Terra, terrible battle, legions decimated, and then? Ferrus arrives with his fresh legion, destroys everything and bring humanity a new ciber-age (i´m sure he even have contacts with Mars...)

 

Of course, i´m pretty sure that he didn´t consider the possibility of losing his head, but Guilliman´s dead didn´t stop theories about some evil ultramarines plan to conquer the galaxy. ^_^ ^_^

[/irony]

 

Hey, i can do absurd theories too!! <_< :lol: :)

[Octavulg]

Since the dispute was entirely about the division into Chapters, that means that either the other Primarchs had no objection to a mandatory reorganise their new Chapters according to the Codex Astartes doctrines, or that the organisational doctrines were mere guidelines and not mandatory.

 

Alternately, it means that's the bit they objected to most strenuously, or that it was simply the first thing proposed - it was the "most immediate change", after all. If none of them wanted to split their legions to start with, the rest of the dictates don't matter.

 

I am not sure what the "de facto" is supposed to mean. According to other sources such as the Codex Ultramarines he officially became the first Lord Commander of the Imperium, only man to ever command the entirety of the Imperium's Forces. There was no "de facto" about it. Maybe I am just not familiar with the exact meaning of that phrase.

 

Alternately, he was de facto head of the Imperium's armed forces and this was later confirmed by more official sources.

 

And how did that go? rolleyes.gif I do not want to suggest that the Emperor's plans were flawed, but Chaos was at work, and he did not forsee the heresy. Guillimans decision was directly based in the events of the heresy, which the Emperor himself did not anticipate, so tere is no saying that the Emperor might not have done the same, had he known.

 

Hey, the Emperor's plans are either flawed, or the Emperor is the most massively evil creature in the cosmos.

 

I just would trust it more if Guilliman's decision hadn't involved an opportunity to make everyone listen to his ideas and use them. The obvious thing to do, IMO, would be to call a conference (like Nikaea) and say, "OK, I think we should split up our legions. Here's why. Your thoughts?". That is not, however, how things went down. It's described as an order, a decree, etc, and also described frequently as the presentation of the Codex Astartes as a whole. Unsurprisingly, the boys didn't go for that.

 

It's just...

 

You don't show up and tell people the way they're doing everything is wrong and they should do it your way, even when they've already tried your way and liked it. You especially don't do this when some of them have been commanding Space Marines longer than you have, and when one of your core arguments is that they, men who saw their legions decimated by fighting against their former brothers, one of whom held his dying father in his arms, can't be trusted with such power.

 

Guilliman did spend as lot of his attention on finding the optimal organisation and tactics. In the Alpha Legion he was perceiving a Space Marine Legion with inefficient structures. He could have left them alone, shaking his head in silence about their lower achievements compared to the more successful Chapters (of which the Ultramarines were one, I am sure you agree). Lion El'Jonson might have done it that way. He could have been "polite" and try to forge good will between Alpharius and himself inspite of his opinion of Alpharius' abilities as a commander. That's more or less what Horus did. Or he could have suggested the doctrines he spent a lot of time to test and evaluate, and which were used to great result by his own Legion.

Which of the choices of action would have been the most reasonable/selfish/honest?

 

Well, that would seem to assume that the Alpha Legion weren't successful when compared to other legions. Which they were. Their/Alpharius' campaigns are described as "well planned and successful" in their IA, and there's nothing to suggest that they weren't just as effective as other legions at the time.

 

Furthermore, there's "suggest ideas" and there's "tell others what they should do". You'll note that at the end of the debate "...it became clear that Alpharius would not bow to his experience and superiority, Guilliman pointed out the thousands of victories and battle honours his legion had won, and told his younger brother that he could never hope to compare."

 

Yeah, that's the act of a helpful, humble man, who just wants his fellow Primarchs to be more efficient. <_<

 

Guilliman was not shy to criticise another Primarch, as he did with Horus for leaving worlds whose rebelling military he had just crushed defenseless behind while rushing to the next warzone. Horus' reaction was a more diplomatic one than that of Alpharius, but then that was Horus's main strength.

 

True. On the other hand, Guilliman's reaction when people disagree with his ideas suggests that he had difficulty dealing with such himself.

 

Of course, so did pretty much all the Primarchs. :lol:

 

It is never explained in the background how that is to be weighed as far as Chapter power goes. I have allways assumed that it is not a factor, but who knows. Though that is somewhat balanced by the fact that Guilliman was dividing a Legion of 25,000, and not a Legion of 5,000, so he appearently did not mind giving up power. So I would think if controll over multiple star systems was a concern, the Ultramarines would have given up Ultramar.

 

Possibly. Or Guilliman didn't see it as an issue because the Ultramarines were the ones with multiple star systems.

 

The Raven Guard Index Astartes seems to be saying that while not officially nominated, Guilliman pretty much had controll over all Imperial forces. But other sources flat out state that he had the position of Lord Commander of all Imperial forces, without any "de facto" involved.

 

An older source, I might point out.

 

More to the point, the obvious caveat is that he got the official position after he assumed unofficial power.

 

Well, the Codex as a whole is a substantial piece of work. It describes all aspects of the Marines' structure. That does not mean that every item in that book is a decree.

 

When you present it as a whole, it does.

 

All laws are laws, if you will.

 

As I said earlier, Guilliman had spend a lot of attention and time to determine optimal doctrines. He was perceiving the Alpha Legion doctrines to be less efficient, and he had no problem to criticise other Primarchs or make suggestions. Under certain cisrumstances you might see someone who is bothering others with instructions as obnoxious, but in this case they were all "professionals" and all fighting for the same cause. In contrast, how would keeping your tried and tested method all for yourself and watching the others using (appearently) inferior methods to solve their issues look?

 

Like you're not forcing your opinion on everyone else due to arrogance?

 

That happened after Guilliman had been made Lord Commander and after he had presented the Codex and Dorn had accepted to split his Legion (but before he did so), but he did not "order" Dorn to attack as part of a larger force, he "pleaded" with him to not do it on his own. He let Dorn decide how to use his forces. Though that might have been after Guilliman had already laid down the title as Lord Commander, so that he no longer was in a position to give orders anyway.

 

Guilliman pleading or Dorn being that arrogant both seem out of character. :)

 

Guilliman and Dorn (IA: IF):

"Although some of the other Primarchs resented his closeness to the Emperor, most held him in high esteem. On Macgarre, home of the Ultramarines, Dorn's statue is one of the four Primarchs that stand alongside Guilliman#s in the Hall of Heroes."

 

Not an interaction. A result of their relationship.

 

*Does that count? It kind of shows that Guilliman was capable to recognise the abilities of others.

 

It shows he agrees with some of their ideas. ^_^

 

Guilliman and Horus (IA: LW):

"[Horus] had the approval and admiration of all the Space Marine Legions, including their Primarchs.

(...)

Further rebellion flared up on a number of the planets after the Luna Wolves had left, and it is believed that the Ultramarines' Primarch Roboute Guilliman subsequently had words with Horus on the matter."

 

So Guilliman is not shy to criticise a fellow Primarch even if is is holding him in high regard. That comes across as pragmatic and professional to me, not as obnoxious or boasting.

 

Keep in mind, if I "had words" with you, it would mean we had an argument. Not a particularly hostile one, but one with some heat nonetheless.

 

This is not so much an interaction, but it appears Corax, who was very critical of the otherwise admired Horus, had faith in Guilliman.

 

Agreeing with someone's idea and having faith in them is a big difference.

 

Also, not an interaction. ^_^

 

The limitation of fleet assets is part of the whole division of power undertaking as well, though, and not an element of organisational doctrines either.

 

What resources you have available is part of your organization, IMO.

 

Also, as a general comment - being a jerk is not related to whether or not you're a good or bad person. It's related to your being a jerk. There are plenty of nice sociopaths. Hell, Dorn's pretty much a jerk, too. It's a comment on his character, not an indictment of it (I mean, it does kinda decrease his personability, but since no one in 40K is very likable, that's hardly a worry).

[Raulmichile]

Also I think Guilliman knew well whom to mess up with becasue while applying all his resources to submit Dorn to adopt the Codex Astartes, he simply didn't dare to mess with Russ. :(

 

 

Now being serious, this is an issue I would like to see how GW/BL deals with. To explain how did Guilliman put a lot of pressure over Dorn and not over Russ for instance. After all, everybody here depicts Guilliman as a stubborn one minded guy who went all the way to see his visions adopted.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Since the dispute was entirely about the division into Chapters, that means that either the other Primarchs had no objection to a mandatory reorganise their new Chapters according to the Codex Astartes doctrines, or that the organisational doctrines were mere guidelines and not mandatory.

Corax disagreed with the Astartes fleets being watered down, despite not being one of those who disagreed with the division of the Legions. There was more than one sticking point in the Codex, and it was not decided by a simple Yes/No vote. It's reasonable to assume that there are other bits that a Primarch might have initially disagreed with, even if they were in favour of dividing the Legions.

The limitation of fleet assets is part of the whole division of power undertaking as well, though, and not an element of organisational doctrines either.

 

That's not my point - you've said that the other Primarchs either had "no objection to a mandatory reorganise (sic) their new Chapters according to the Codex Astartes doctrines, or that the organisational doctrines were mere guidelines and not mandatory". My point is that that's oversimplified - the Codex was not a Yes/No vote, and my example of Corax agreeing with splitting the Legions into Chapters but not with downgrading the Astartes fleets illustrates this.

 

Well, the Codex as a whole is a substantial piece of work. It describes all aspects of the Marines' structure. That does not mean that every item in that book is a decree.

When you present it as a whole, it does.

 

All laws are laws, if you will

 

The Codex can't be a set of decrees simply because they could not be forced on the Legions. The only way to keep them in place without the participants voluntarily adopting them in the first place would be another civil war. That doesn't mean Guilliman didn't intend them as a set of decrees, but practically speaking they could not be.

 

Now being serious, this is an issue I would like to see how GW/BL deals with. To explain how did Guilliman put a lot of pressure over Dorn and not over Russ for instance. After all, everybody here depicts Guilliman as a stubborn one minded guy who went all the way to see his visions adopted.

 

True. But then the Wolves get Ultra Grit for a reason. :P

[Raulmichile]

True. But then the Wolves get Ultra Grit for a reason. :P

 

 

Yeah, how I missed that? :P

[Legatus]

Alternately, it means that's the bit they objected to most strenuously, or that it was simply the first thing proposed - it was the "most immediate change", after all. If none of them wanted to split their legions to start with, the rest of the dictates don't matter.

The sources that describe the dispute specifically mention the division as the reason. It is never stated (to my knowledge) that there was any other issue with the Codex, so for all intents and purposes I take that there wasn't.

 

There are several indicators that not all elements of the Codex were law.

 

- Not every first founding Chapter is organised strictly according to the Codex.

 

- The Codex also included information on markings, which also not all first founding Chapters use.

 

- In the description of the Codex Astartes the current Codex Space Marines, it is said to include first and foremost the "decree that the existing Space Marine Legions be broken up into smaller Chapters", the decree that Space Marines would be created and trained slowly" and furthermore definig "guidelines on tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings".

 

- The limitation of army size was deemed a neccessity because of the events of the heresy. Unit organisation and uniform identification markings were not.

 

 

Alternately, he was de facto head of the Imperium's armed forces and this was later confirmed by more official sources.

Alternatively, just like the Ultramarines Index Astartes, the Raven Guard Index Astartes is not discussing Guillimans position among the High Lords at all (the current Codex Space Marines omits that part as well) and is merely refering to the Ultramarines providing more than 50% of all Astartes forces, making their Primarch the natural choice for overall command.

Usually, in a campaign one of the Astartes commanders will assume overall command, such as Commander Dante of the Blood Angels did in the second battle for Armageddon (with UM and Salamanders involved) or High Marshall Helbrecht did in the third battle for Armageddon (IIRC). Under the particular circumstances after the heresy, the campaign was for the whole galaxy, and the Ultramarines were providing the majority of the Astartes force.

 

 

Hey, the Emperor's plans are either flawed, or the Emperor is the most massively evil creature in the cosmos.

If we are going by the fluff, it is the former. After all, the heresy did happen without him anticipating it.

 

 

I just would trust it more if Guilliman's decision hadn't involved an opportunity to make everyone listen to his ideas and use them.

I am still contesting that he did that, and I find no indication in the fluff that he did.

 

 

and also described frequently as the presentation of the Codex Astartes as a whole.

When someone introduces a monumental work that is designed to establish a whole new paradigm, then "presenting" it is usually the way to go. Like the AdMech would "present" a new and powerful wapon that was to be used by the Astartes. Revolutionary new item = "presentation".

 

 

Well, that would seem to assume that the Alpha Legion weren't successful when compared to other legions. Which they were. Their/Alpharius' campaigns are described as "well planned and successful" in their IA, and there's nothing to suggest that they weren't just as effective as other legions at the time.

"[Alpharius's] conduct in the battle for Tesstra invited censure from many quarters. Roboute Guilliman is recorded as having called it "a huge waste of time, effort, and the Enperor's bolt shells. However, concerns about alleged atrocities committed by the Night Lords Legion diverted attention away from the incident. Nevertheless, Alpharius was furious at the reaction to his Legion's masterful performance. Only Horus openly praised the manner in which the Alpha Legion had overcome an opposition that outnumbered them a hundred to one."

Index Astartes Alpha Legion

 

I did not say they were not successful, just less efficient and not all they could have been. The Alpha Legion were capable at their style of warfare. Their victories can even be described as 'impressive'. But they were not efficient, and the Imperium did not need "impressive" displays of prowess. Most Legions could have achieved success at a fraction of the time, with less resources, and some with less collateral damage. Not to mention that Alpharius's subversive Tactice were not giving the best impression of Astartes ideology (neither did some of the more bloodthirsty Legions).

 

 

Furthermore, there's "suggest ideas" and there's "tell others what they should do". You'll note that at the end of the debate "...it became clear that Alpharius would not bow to his experience and superiority, Guilliman pointed out the thousands of victories and battle honours his legion had won, and told his younger brother that he could never hope to compare."

Before the heated debate ensues, Guilliman 'suggests' that the young Alpha Legion should adopt his long tried and tested "Codex" behaviour. In the then following debate Guilliman was no doubt able to cite countless historical battles where his doctrines were achieving the best possible results, while Alpharius had a much shorter track record to refer to.

 

 

Possibly. Or Guilliman didn't see it as an issue because the Ultramarines were the ones with multiple star systems.

He made an effort to restructure all Imperial forces and specifically separated Imperial Army ground forces, Imperial Navy ships and Astartes forces. I find it hard to believe that he would miss such a detail.

 

 

An older source, I might point out.

You may. I like refering back to 2nd Edition, as that's where my roots are, and most of it is still viable today, but I understand some people are not as fond of the old material.

 

 

Guilliman pleading or Dorn being that arrogant both seem out of character. tongue.gif

:P Well, Dorn is sometimes described as a hot head and even as vain (IA: IW) in some sources.

 

 

Keep in mind, if I "had words" with you, it would mean we had an argument. Not a particularly hostile one, but one with some heat nonetheless.

What I was trying to argue was that Guilliman would criticise another Primarch even if he held him in high regard or even admired him. He admired Horus (or so the Index Astartes Luna Wolves suggests), but he was disagreeing with his carelessnes when it came to leaving worlds without defense and stability.

In the two instances you like to refer to for Guillimans improper conduct there was a lot of tension involved on both sides before Guilliman made his remarks. Dorn was still bitter and enraged about the heresy and called Guilliman a coward before Guilliman labeled him a rebel and a heretic. After Guilliman suggests to Alpharius that he should adopt the Ultramarines' tried and tested doctrines they start a heated debate, untilll at some point Guilliman points to his Legions track record and that the Alpha Legion could never hope to compare (unless they changed doctrines, obviously).

 

 

Agreeing with someone's idea and having faith in them is a big difference.

"knowing that Guilliman's vision of the future was true" is some profound agreement.

 

 

Also, as a general comment - being a jerk is not related to whether or not you're a good or bad person. It's related to your being a jerk. There are plenty of nice sociopaths. Hell, Dorn's pretty much a jerk, too. It's a comment on his character, not an indictment of it (I mean, it does kinda decrease his personability, but since no one in 40K is very likable, that's hardly a worry).

Now that you mention it, I think Horus was supposedly a really nice guy... :P

 

 

---

 

Raulmichile

 

Also I think Guilliman knew well whom to mess up with becasue while applying all his resources to submit Dorn to adopt the Codex Astartes, he simply didn't dare to mess with Russ.

I am not aware of any "resources" Guilliman applied. I allways had the impression that it was Dorn who was making the most fuss. He was the one arguing with Guilliman. It was an Imperial Fists ship that was fired upon by the Imperial Navy. And Russ is merely listed as agreeing with Dorn in the Index Astartes Black Templars. The Index Astartes Space Wolves or their Codex does not even mention the dispute at all.

[c-wrex]

As much as I just looove reading through several more pages of guilliman/ultramarine/codex discussion, I have to ask how you would call the Alpha Legion inefficient. What other legion conquered more thoroughly, more carefully, and more completely, with the fewest losses of Astartes life? How does being careful and precise make them inefficient? The battle you describe, if I remember correctly, was after the AL allowed the defenders a week to reinforce, then they spent time picking the defenders apart piecemeal. After inflicting 90% casualties on the enemy, they gave up and surrendered to the Legion. They did this with minimal loss of imperial products or lives.

 

So, again, how were the Alpha Legion inefficient, in any way, during the pre- or post-heresy era?

[Legatus]

What other legion conquered more thoroughly, more carefully, and more completely, with the fewest losses of Astartes life?

Ironically, that's usually attributed to the Ultramarines. The worlds they conquered were left in the best condition, and the Ultramarines suffered the least casualties of all Legions.

 

 

The battle you describe, if I remember correctly, was after the AL allowed the defenders a week to reinforce, then they spent time picking the defenders apart piecemeal. After inflicting 90% casualties on the enemy, they gave up and surrendered to the Legion. They did this with minimal loss of imperial products or lives.

That campaign was criticised by several sources (not just Robby Gee). One issue was that the opposing military of a rebelling planet will ideally become upright imperial citizens once the planet's tyrant has been removed. In this particular case, the newly introduced Imperial world had suffered horrendous losses. Another issue is time, another one resources.

[c-wrex]

Ok, the time first. The defenders had a week to establish their lines, then the Legion began to attack them. I don't know how long they took, so I can't say anything about it, but the campaign is described as short and sweet (IIRC). With that in mind, it would appear that the Legion conquered this world in less time than it takes to get to a new war-zone through the warp.

 

Next you mention resources. Not the people of the rebellion, but resources. Please elaborate.

 

Then (I know I'm going out of order) the rebellious citizens themselves. The Legion decided to act thoroughly and finally on this matter. They knew if they simply took out the leadership, another could have risen and prolonged the fighting. Additionally, if this new leader came to power with an entire army behind him, the world would have been a tar pit to expansion for years.

 

I would say that while the thorough and efficient conquering of worlds is usually attributed to the Ultramarines (in this case over the Alpha Legion), it cannot be ignored that (and Robby Gee (I liked that bit you made up) pointed it out clearly to Alpharius) that his legion had a glorious history of centuries behind them compared to the new, young Alpha Legion. Whose to say how the record would look if both legions started kicking ass at the same time?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

It is never stated (to my knowledge) that there was any other issue with the Codex, so for all intents and purposes I take that there wasn't.

 

I'm going to give up and just give you the source: Imperial Fleets, page 20.

 

Splitting into Chapters was not the only issue.

 

There are several indicators that not all elements of the Codex were law.

 

- Not every first founding Chapter is organised strictly according to the Codex.

 

- The Codex also included information on markings, which also not all first founding Chapters use.

 

- In the description of the Codex Astartes the current Codex Space Marines, it is said to include first and foremost the "decree that the existing Space Marine Legions be broken up into smaller Chapters", the decree that Space Marines would be created and trained slowly" and furthermore definig "guidelines on tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings".

 

- The limitation of army size was deemed a neccessity because of the events of the heresy. Unit organisation and uniform identification markings were not.

 

There is a third category - unenforceable law. The fleet limitations, for example, are enforced on younger Chapters but that doesn't mean the Imperium has the power to forcibly take away the Phalanx, Seditio Opprimere and the Eternal Crusader at will without sparking another civil war.

 

The point about squad markings is valid though.

[Raulmichile]

So, again, how were the Alpha Legion inefficient, in any way, during the pre- or post-heresy era?

 

Because they were taking too much time in their conquests and because in trying to prove a point they overcomplicated their campaigns. Giving the enemy one week of spare time and then spending months in pinpointing targeting instead of dealing with those rebels in one week and crushing them utterly, moving on then to other battlefileds is what Guilliman criticized of Alpharius' tactics.

 

Besides, what the Imperim had at these times was resources and man power, not time. So, delaying a victory just to avoid losing some (hundreds or thousands :rolleyes: ) lives or resources wasn't a valid point at the time. The Emperor needed planets, not savings. Lorgar was frowned upon for basically the same reason as Alpharius: taking too much time in their conquests.

 

For the Marines, the task was: "Do the killing, leave the dirty work to others"; and Horus and Angron were the champions at that.

[c-wrex]

Because they were taking too much time in their conquests and because in trying to prove a point they overcomplicated their campaigns. Giving the enemy one week of spare time and then spending months in pinpointing targeting instead of dealing with those rebels in one week and crushing them utterly, moving on then to other battlefileds is what Guilliman criticized of Alpharius' tactics.

 

Besides, what the Imperim had at these times was resources and man power, not time. So, delaying a victory just to avoid losing some (hundreds or thousands :rolleyes: ) lives or resources wasn't a valid point at the time. The Emperor needed planets, not savings. Lorgar was frowned upon for basically the same reason as Alpharius: taking too much time in their conquests.

 

I disagree. Few things were more important to the Emprah than the lives of his subjects. He wasn't conquering worlds for fun, he was trying to rescue and reunite mankind. And the lives of his Astartes were doubly important, because they were the ones who secured all of the Emprah's victories. Being thorough is not the same thing as taking too much time. Lorgar was frowned upon because his delays were due to his incessant proselytizing and prayer.

[Legatus]

C-wrex:

 

The Alpha Legion had delayed their attacks for one week to let the defenders ammass their forces, and the ensuing fighting (in which the Alpha Legion massacred the defenders) took another week. After the campaign Alpharius had been asked why he had not simply seized the capital before the defending armies had arrived, to which he replied that "it would have been too easy". Essentially, he was doing that just to show that he could, and in this case it was deliberate to prove his Legions prowess, so I assume he would not spend quite as much time usually.

 

Guilliman then called it a waste of time, effort and the Emperor's bolter shells, so I assume another Legion would have taken the world not only in less time, but probably also with less fighting. Complete anihilation is not the only way to defeat a world.

 

I cannot take the credit for "Robby Gee", I picked that up somewhere. :rolleyes:

 

---

 

Grand Master Tyrak:

 

I'm going to give up and just give you the source: Imperial Fleets, page 20.

Interresting, tanks. I am not familiar with the BFG material. Though on that page it describes the process of preparing the Codex, and what guidelines to include. It is then ventured by "some" (not "guilliman") that Space Marines should be denied any vessels at all, which Corax, among others, strongly protests. If anything than this passage shows that the decrees about the limitation of army sizes and separation of institutions were not decided by Guilliman alone, but in agreement with others.

 

Edit: The Index Astartes Imperial Fists might hint at the same circumstances:

"While others shaped the new Imperium, Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice. It was rumoured that he saw the Emperor's death as his own personal failure and his crusade as penance. After all, were the Traitors not his brothers? Whatever the cause, Rogal Dorn was absent from the highest councils until he was summoned back to Terra when Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines presented his Codex Astartes as the future of Space Marines."

Index Astartes Imperial Fists

 

It mentions "others shaping the new Imperium" and "Dorn was absent from the highest councils", so it was more his own fault for not being involved in the decisions.

[Raulmichile]

@ C-wrex:

 

Nope. In the grand scheme of things, for the Emperor it was much more important to unite humanity as fast as he could, and if in doing so some thousand of lives needed to be expended so be it.

 

Surely there can be some exceptions like very technologically advanced cultures who needed to be addressed by other vias due to potential technological contributions/military threat.

 

I agree WB were castised for a different issues, but the bottom line was the same. Both Legions were taking too much time in their conquests.

[Legatus]

I don't know whether the Apha Legion was quite as slow as the Word Bearers, but they were certainly not as fast as other Legions.

[Raulmichile]

I don't know whether the Apha Legion was quite as slow as the Word Bearers, but they were certainly not as fast as other Legions.

 

 

In fact what pissed Guilliman off was the deliberate overcomplicating in the Alpha Legion campaings jus to prove a point. Alpharius' methods may have been the correct ones in other times or circumstances but not at the time of the crusade.

[Tutteman]

I feel the issue with the Alpha Legion was more in how they almost added unrequired pretty bits and bells and whistles. They made things more complicated then needed, sure doing some nice clever tactical move, fine, laying a trap, well done...But waiting a week just to let the enemy get together in one place when really you don't even need to kill them all to begin with? This said Night Lords and Alpha Legion are my fave weak willed traitor scum...

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

What other legion conquered more thoroughly, more carefully, and more completely, with the fewest losses of Astartes life?

Ironically, that's usually attributed to the Ultramarines. The worlds they conquered were left in the best condition, and the Ultramarines suffered the least casualties of all Legions.

I disagree. It is Corax and the Raven Guard who get the nod when it comes to thorough and complete planning with the most efficient use of power. Give Guilliman respect for recognizing the brilliance of Corax and including his methods in his Codex. The condition the planet was left in after being brought into compliance is a separate matter. Guill might have been the best there.

[Legatus]

The Raven Guard is praised mostly for their rapid troop deployment (and re-deployment), which allows them to strike precisely where they need.

 

But I would interprete "conquering more thoroughly, more carefully, and more completely" to refer to the state the world is conquered in. The Ultramarines are noted to inflict minimal colateral damage and to leave the worlds they conquer with stable government, productive industry and loyal citizens.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The whole beef between Guilliman and the Alpha Legion I see as this:

 

The Alpha Legion are the final legion to be brought together with its Primarch(s). At this point, the Codex is pretty much written and Guilliman is slowly forcing all his brothers to listen to his "How My Book says I'm Better than You" speech, and Guilliman tells the new kid on the block how to wage war, and if he wanted to wage war with any success, he'd stop with his game and do like the big boys do, namely himself. This pisses off the Alpha Legion, cause they were just reuinted, and havent the same amount of time as the Ultras to get a good record yet. But Guilliman ignores this fact in the face of his obvious superiority.

 

WLK

[Octavulg]

- The Codex also included information on markings, which also not all first founding Chapters use.

 

IIRC, it also recommends changing them regularly to keep the enemy confused.

 

Alternatively, just like the Ultramarines Index Astartes, the Raven Guard Index Astartes is not discussing Guillimans position among the High Lords at all (the current Codex Space Marines omits that part as well) and is merely refering to the Ultramarines providing more than 50% of all Astartes forces, making their Primarch the natural choice for overall command.

 

I don't exactly see how that's incompatible with my suggestion - he acts as commander unofficially, then is officially declared Commander by the High Lords at some point.

 

If we are going by the fluff, it is the former. After all, the heresy did happen without him anticipating it.

 

Once, when I pointed out the massive number of really stupid things the Emperor does, someone cited unto me a quote along the lines that the Emperor and Tzeentch were locked in a cosmic struggle, had been since well before the Heresy, and the Emperor had yet to make a wrong move. Which turns him into an evil jerk, instead of a stupid one.

 

I am still contesting that he did that, and I find no indication in the fluff that he did.

 

Codex Astartes. Not "hey guys, let's split the legions". Codex Astartes.

 

When necessary military reforms come up, he takes the opportunity to tack his ideas about how Space Marines should work onto them. That's what the Codex is. The Codex as a whole is presented as the future of the Space Marines. We know at least two things that were objected to, and there may have been more (it seems improbable there weren't). But it says a lot about Guilliman that he chose to add his ideas about how Astartes should fight to the things that were absolutely critical and unrelated to that, even if only some parts of the Codex were mandatory (which, I must point out, we don't know).

 

When someone introduces a monumental work that is designed to establish a whole new paradigm, then "presenting" it is usually the way to go. Like the AdMech would "present" a new and powerful wapon that was to be used by the Astartes. Revolutionary new item = "presentation".

 

Except he presents the whole Codex, not just the bits the Primarchs immediately and strenuously objected to (leaving aside the unilateral nature of telling your brothers what to do with their legions without asking first).

 

"[Alpharius's] conduct in the battle for Tesstra invited censure from many quarters. Roboute Guilliman is recorded as having called it "a huge waste of time, effort, and the Enperor's bolt shells. However, concerns about alleged atrocities committed by the Night Lords Legion diverted attention away from the incident. Nevertheless, Alpharius was furious at the reaction to his Legion's masterful performance. Only Horus openly praised the manner in which the Alpha Legion had overcome an opposition that outnumbered them a hundred to one."

Index Astartes Alpha Legion

 

Which is something he does after Guilliman's criticism, when he's basically showing off how hard the Alpha Legion are, rather than before, where he is presumably letting opportunities to show off lapse in favor of efficiency.

 

I did not say they were not successful, just less efficient and not all they could have been. The Alpha Legion were capable at their style of warfare. Their victories can even be described as 'impressive'. But they were not efficient, and the Imperium did not need "impressive" displays of prowess. Most Legions could have achieved success at a fraction of the time, with less resources, and some with less collateral damage. Not to mention that Alpharius's subversive Tactice were not giving the best impression of Astartes ideology (neither did some of the more bloodthirsty Legions).

 

Er...it's pointed out in the Alpha Legion IA that "while these methods took longer to execute than a simple frontal assault, they were far less costly in troops, enabling Alpharius to spread his forces more widely."

 

You're assuming a lot about the way they fight, and I really don't see a lot of evidence to bear it out. Alpharius' constant drive to improve his officers and their abilities would seem to speak for, rather than against, efficiency. Indeed, it seems unlikely they'd be called "well planned and successful" if they weren't. And personally, I think sowing fear and terror among the enemies of man and ensuring that no matter what they do they can't defeat you is a good thing.

 

Before the heated debate ensues, Guilliman 'suggests' that the young Alpha Legion should adopt his long tried and tested "Codex" behaviour. In the then following debate Guilliman was no doubt able to cite countless historical battles where his doctrines were achieving the best possible results, while Alpharius had a much shorter track record to refer to.

 

That's not what it says. It doesn't say he pointed to his superior track record as proof of the effectiveness of his methods (though I can only assume he would). It says he pointed to those and specifically told Alpharius that Alpharius could never accomplish as much. That's not debate. That's what happens when the debate is going nowhere and somebody decides it's time to start slinging insults instead.

 

He made an effort to restructure all Imperial forces and specifically separated Imperial Army ground forces, Imperial Navy ships and Astartes forces. I find it hard to believe that he would miss such a detail.

 

And yet there's eight planets that are sworn to the Ultramarines. With PDF, and shipyards.

 

You may. I like refering back to 2nd Edition, as that's where my roots are, and most of it is still viable today, but I understand some people are not as fond of the old material.

 

I like it as well. However, if C:SM 5e says one thing, and 2e says another, 5e gets to win.

 

Of course, in this case, it's an IA, so I figure it should be a little more accomodating.

 

cool.gif Well, Dorn is sometimes described as a hot head and even as vain (IA: IW) in some sources.

 

Oh, true. It's just that that's a lot of arrogance.

 

Plus, there's the additional point that at least part of the point of the Iron Cage was the massive casualties.

 

What I was trying to argue was that Guilliman would criticise another Primarch even if he held him in high regard or even admired him. He admired Horus (or so the Index Astartes Luna Wolves suggests), but he was disagreeing with his carelessnes when it came to leaving worlds without defense and stability.

 

True. However, I'm more pointing out that Guilliman seems incapable of talking to people without it turning into an argument. :) I suspect he spent too much time being in charge, and thus tries to order everyone around all the time.

 

"knowing that Guilliman's vision of the future was true" is some profound agreement.

 

True. On the other hand, I agree profoundly with many of the ideals espoused by the Conservative Party of Canada. I just think they're scum-sucking incompetents who can't be trusted to follow through on those ideals, and instead prefer to cheat, lie and steal.

 

See the distinction? :P

 

Now that you mention it, I think Horus was supposedly a really nice guy... cool.gif

 

Exactly! Guilliman's personal abrasiveness is merely a representation of how loyal and upright he is! Dorn is slightly less abrasive, and that's why the Imperial Fists rank seconds in the eyes of the Imperium!

 

Oh, Perturabo, if only you had remained loyal...you could have been the greatest of all...

 

Interresting, tanks. I am not familiar with the BFG material. Though on that page it describes the process of preparing the Codex, and what guidelines to include. It is then ventured by "some" (not "guilliman") that Space Marines should be denied any vessels at all, which Corax, among others, strongly protests. If anything than this passage shows that the decrees about the limitation of army sizes and separation of institutions were not decided by Guilliman alone, but in agreement with others.

 

You seem to be assuming that the eventual end result was what was originally proposed. I'm not so sure myself, and suspect there may have been some give-and-take after Dorn agreed to split his legion.

 

It mentions "others shaping the new Imperium" and "Dorn was absent from the highest councils", so it was more his own fault for not being involved in the decisions.

 

Waitaminnit. Dorn's out on the front lines with his legion, but Guilliman has time to hang around and politick?

 

Dear God, I remember why I really, really don't like him. Because Dorn was the Emperor's right hand, appointed by that Emperor to lead his armies, and yet Guilliman doesn't seem to have any respect for that, and sneaks it away while Dorn is grieving for their lost father.

 

I'm amazed he doesn't have mustachios to twirl.

 

I just can't respect someone who does that. Especially someone who does that and then tries to treat his brothers like subordinates, rather than, well, his brothers.

[c-wrex]

I feel that maybe the Imperium would be a stronger place if the legions were allowed to fight in their chosen style. You know what they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Which of the loyalists were actually in need of fixing? Or 'restructuring', according to one man's interpretations of the arts of war? I submit the Alpha Legion did not need to be changed. They fought damned hard and awfully clever. They had the enemy panicking and second guessing themselves. They struck from anywhere and everywhere, at every vital location, and left everything totally destroyed while suffering minimal casualties and over a much larger front. Additionally, we know NOTHING about the world where Alpharius/Omegon were brought up. Or what else they had accomplished prior to being found by Horus. Guilliman's presumption of superiority over this man he knew next to nothing about is nothing short of being a git.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Alternately, it means that's the bit they objected to most strenuously, or that it was simply the first thing proposed - it was the "most immediate change", after all. If none of them wanted to split their legions to start with, the rest of the dictates don't matter.

The sources that describe the dispute specifically mention the division as the reason. It is never stated (to my knowledge) that there was any other issue with the Codex, so for all intents and purposes I take that there wasn't.

 

There are several indicators that not all elements of the Codex were law.

 

- Not every first founding Chapter is organised strictly according to the Codex.

 

- The Codex also included information on markings, which also not all first founding Chapters use.

 

- In the description of the Codex Astartes the current Codex Space Marines, it is said to include first and foremost the "decree that the existing Space Marine Legions be broken up into smaller Chapters", the decree that Space Marines would be created and trained slowly" and furthermore definig "guidelines on tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings".

 

- The limitation of army size was deemed a neccessity because of the events of the heresy. Unit organisation and uniform identification markings were not.

 

 

You never responded to my post, no. 346 I think, on all the POWER words used to describe the Codex. Or was this not really the case and the authors were just using hyperbole and RG never took the liberties afforded by the circumstances?

 

The Codex WAS law. It was just that the Authorities could not enforce it.

 

 

Alternately, he was de facto head of the Imperium's armed forces and this was later confirmed by more official sources.

Alternatively, just like the Ultramarines Index Astartes, the Raven Guard Index Astartes is not discussing Guillimans position among the High Lords at all (the current Codex Space Marines omits that part as well) and is merely refering to the Ultramarines providing more than 50% of all Astartes forces, making their Primarch the natural choice for overall command.

Usually, in a campaign one of the Astartes commanders will assume overall command, such as Commander Dante of the Blood Angels did in the second battle for Armageddon (with UM and Salamanders involved) or High Marshall Helbrecht did in the third battle for Armageddon (IIRC). Under the particular circumstances after the heresy, the campaign was for the whole galaxy, and the Ultramarines were providing the majority of the Astartes force.

 

We are not talking about some "mere" campaign of various Imperial forces ~ RG overstepped the mark.

 

Hey, the Emperor's plans are either flawed, or the Emperor is the most massively evil creature in the cosmos.

If we are going by the fluff, it is the former. After all, the heresy did happen without him anticipating it.

 

As I said before, RG Chapter law was used on the wrong people ~ he bullied the good guys with it. If it was ever needed it was on some 9 legions before the HH, not after.

 

"Jack" "Yes dear" "You know how my brother-in-law had an affair?" "Yes dear" "You will be fitted with an electronic anklet and have a tattoo on your forehead that says married" "Yes Roboute Guilliman"

 

and also described frequently as the presentation of the Codex Astartes as a whole.

When someone introduces a monumental work that is designed to establish a whole new paradigm, then "presenting" it is usually the way to go. Like the AdMech would "present" a new and powerful wapon that was to be used by the Astartes. Revolutionary new item = "presentation".

 

Yeah but we know that RG "presentation" = Obey my law or I will slander you, and I will sit back while others attack you, "Oh I never told them to do so" ~ that is tacit agreement as far as I can see.

 

Well, that would seem to assume that the Alpha Legion weren't successful when compared to other legions. Which they were. Their/Alpharius' campaigns are described as "well planned and successful" in their IA, and there's nothing to suggest that they weren't just as effective as other legions at the time.

"[Alpharius's] conduct in the battle for Tesstra invited censure from many quarters. Roboute Guilliman is recorded as having called it "a huge waste of time, effort, and the Enperor's bolt shells. However, concerns about alleged atrocities committed by the Night Lords Legion diverted attention away from the incident. Nevertheless, Alpharius was furious at the reaction to his Legion's masterful performance. Only Horus openly praised the manner in which the Alpha Legion had overcome an opposition that outnumbered them a hundred to one."

Index Astartes Alpha Legion

 

I did not say they were not successful, just less efficient and not all they could have been. The Alpha Legion were capable at their style of warfare. Their victories can even be described as 'impressive'. But they were not efficient, and the Imperium did not need "impressive" displays of prowess. Most Legions could have achieved success at a fraction of the time, with less resources, and some with less collateral damage. Not to mention that Alpharius's subversive Tactice were not giving the best impression of Astartes ideology (neither did some of the more bloodthirsty Legions).

 

That seems awfully arrogant of RG. Who appointed him as the QC officer amongst the Primarchs? The list for successful Primarchs goes Horus, the Lion and then Russ. I even think BL has put Dorn ahead of Russ (but that is an aside). So wouldn't the top three be the ones passing out the "wisdom" to those lagging behind?

Considering RG had the most Astartes and doesn't rank in the top 3/4 seems a bit off to me.

 

Furthermore, there's "suggest ideas" and there's "tell others what they should do". You'll note that at the end of the debate "...it became clear that Alpharius would not bow to his experience and superiority, Guilliman pointed out the thousands of victories and battle honours his legion had won, and told his younger brother that he could never hope to compare."

Before the heated debate ensues, Guilliman 'suggests' that the young Alpha Legion should adopt his long tried and tested "Codex" behaviour. In the then following debate Guilliman was no doubt able to cite countless historical battles where his doctrines were achieving the best possible results, while Alpharius had a much shorter track record to refer to.

 

Your boss can "suggest" you do something. It isn't really implied that one has a choice though, is it?

I don't see RG giving his experience and authority "help" to other Legions, but then he wasn't the best anyway, was he?

Then when Alpharius doesn't Kowtow to RG he becomes indignant and slanders Alpharius and speaks death over him ~ poor character, again by RG, and pure supposition combined with arrogance.

Basically RG pulls the I'll ask you nicely with a cherry on top, do as I say OR I WILL TELL YOU WHAT A FOOL YOU REALLY ARE !

Does he pull the same stunt against Dorn, I forget....

 

Possibly. Or Guilliman didn't see it as an issue because the Ultramarines were the ones with multiple star systems.

He made an effort to restructure all Imperial forces and specifically separated Imperial Army ground forces, Imperial Navy ships and Astartes forces. I find it hard to believe that he would miss such a detail.

 

He didn't miss it. He was a brilliant man. He chose to keep a star system for himself.

 

Keep in mind, if I "had words" with you, it would mean we had an argument. Not a particularly hostile one, but one with some heat nonetheless.

What I was trying to argue was that Guilliman would criticise another Primarch even if he held him in high regard or even admired him. He admired Horus (or so the Index Astartes Luna Wolves suggests), but he was disagreeing with his carelessnes when it came to leaving worlds without defense and stability.

In the two instances you like to refer to for Guillimans improper conduct there was a lot of tension involved on both sides before Guilliman made his remarks. Dorn was still bitter and enraged about the heresy and called Guilliman a coward before Guilliman labeled him a rebel and a heretic. After Guilliman suggests to Alpharius that he should adopt the Ultramarines' tried and tested doctrines they start a heated debate, untilll at some point Guilliman points to his Legions track record and that the Alpha Legion could never hope to compare (unless they changed doctrines, obviously).

 

That is arrogance and supposition on RG behalf.

 

Raulmichile

 

Also I think Guilliman knew well whom to mess up with becasue while applying all his resources to submit Dorn to adopt the Codex Astartes, he simply didn't dare to mess with Russ.

I am not aware of any "resources" Guilliman applied. I allways had the impression that it was Dorn who was making the most fuss. He was the one arguing with Guilliman. It was an Imperial Fists ship that was fired upon by the Imperial Navy. And Russ is merely listed as agreeing with Dorn in the Index Astartes Black Templars. The Index Astartes Space Wolves or their Codex does not even mention the dispute at all.

 

RG did not commission the Navy to attack the IF. But if you are having an argument with Bob, and your mate Joe comes over and thumps Bob, whilst you say nothing about and don't pull Joe up for it, you have actually given your ascent to it. You have let Joe do something you are okay with.

It is called tacit agreement.

 

I think you have blue tinted glasses on, Legatus. If you think that we all have misinterpreted the information that GW has put out over the years and mistakenly think it makes RG looks bad and it only happens to be UM fans who have the right grasp on things, well, I don't think your view is very realistic....

[Legatus]

octavulg:

 

I don't exactly see how that's incompatible with my suggestion - he acts as commander unofficially, then is officially declared Commander by the High Lords at some point.

What I was trying to suggest is that it was not out of place for him to act as de facto commander at that time, and can not be attributed to power grabbing or opportunity seizing.

 

 

Codex Astartes. Not "hey guys, let's split the legions". Codex Astartes.

 

When necessary military reforms come up, he takes the opportunity to tack his ideas about how Space Marines should work onto them. That's what the Codex is. The Codex as a whole is presented as the future of the Space Marines. We know at least two things that were objected to, and there may have been more (it seems improbable there weren't). But it says a lot about Guilliman that he chose to add his ideas about how Astartes should fight to the things that were absolutely critical and unrelated to that, even if only some parts of the Codex were mandatory (which, I must point out, we don't know).

The presentation could have been something like this:

 

"Welcome home to Terra, brothers. You are all dong well defending the Emperor's realm. The reason I summoned you here is to present to you the future of Space Marines, the Codex Astartes.

As you all know I have been working on this comprehensive work of reference on tatical and organisational doctrines for almost a century. I have tried and tested all the formations and tactics myself and included essays of many of you, my brothers. I think it will be of great benefit in our many coming battles against mankinds enemies.

However, as you are aware, all Imperial forces have to undergo some drastic modifications due to the horrible events of the last decades. Forces will be separated into distinct bodies of Army, Navy and Astartes, and the power any single individual is permitted to wield will be limited. For the Astartes, I included the respective decrees in the Codex, as it is intended to include all aspects of the Marines' structure, and we all have to adhere to these decrees. The most important one is that a Marines' force size will be limited to approximately one Chapter worth of fighting warriors."

 

Basically: "Here is the Codex, it is mostly a guide, but includes some decrees." It was not exactly a secret that he was working on the Codex Astartes, and he would have presented it without all the decrees sooner or later anyway. And since it was intended to be "anything Space Marine" it makes sense to include their duties and responsibilities as well.

 

 

Which is something he does after Guilliman's criticism, when he's basically showing off how hard the Alpha Legion are, rather than before, where he is presumably letting opportunities to show off lapse in favor of efficiency.

Yes, as I said in a later post, Alpharius was putting on an extra show on that occasion. But his point was to demonstrate that his doctrines work well, so I assume he did not stray too much from his usual modus operandi other than giving the enemy forces a bit more time to prepare to make it more difficult for himself.

 

 

Er...it's pointed out in the Alpha Legion IA that "while these methods took longer to execute than a simple frontal assault, they were far less costly in troops, enabling Alpharius to spread his forces more widely."

Fewer troops, that operate for a longer period of time = no resources saved.

 

 

You're assuming a lot about the way they fight, and I really don't see a lot of evidence to bear it out. Alpharius' constant drive to improve his officers and their abilities would seem to speak for, rather than against, efficiency. Indeed, it seems unlikely they'd be called "well planned and successful" if they weren't. And personally, I think sowing fear and terror among the enemies of man and ensuring that no matter what they do they can't defeat you is a good thing.

Their campaigns were so well planned and intricate that it was virtually impossiblefor the Alpha Legion to lose. They also took longer to undertake, that much is obvious. In the particular case of the "show off" campaign the wasteful use of resources is also criticised, but we cannot say how much of that was only due to the extra effort put in. However, if Guilliman thinks you are inefficient (no matter what yo umight think of the an) then you are probably inefficient.

 

 

That's not what it says. It doesn't say he pointed to his superior track record as proof of the effectiveness of his methods (though I can only assume he would). It says he pointed to those and specifically told Alpharius that Alpharius could never accomplish as much. That's not debate. That's what happens when the debate is going nowhere and somebody decides it's time to start slinging insults instead.

Well, it was a factual statement, and reinforcing what Guilliman had tried to argue for the whole time. I was trying to imply, though, that Guilliman had probably refered to his track record throughout the debate, and not just brought the point up before leaving.

 

 

Oh, Perturabo, if only you had remained loyal...you could have been the greatest of all...

I dunno, he was kind of grumpy...

 

 

You seem to be assuming that the eventual end result was what was originally proposed. I'm not so sure myself, and suspect there may have been some give-and-take after Dorn agreed to split his legion.

The discussion about fleet assets that is described in the BFG book is definitely prior to the Codex's official presentation, and it seems to be discussed by several people, not just Guilliman and Corax, and possibly not just Primarchs but representatives of the important institutions as well.

 

 

Waitaminnit. Dorn's out on the front lines with his legion, but Guilliman has time to hang around and politick?

IIRC one source describes how Guilliman appeared to be everywhere at that time, though I cannot seem to find that at the moment.

 

 

---

 

Marshal_Wilhelm:

 

You never responded to my post, no. 346 I think, on all the POWER words used to describe the Codex. Or was this not really the case and the authors were just using hyperbole and RG never took the liberties afforded by the circumstances?

Sorry, I had just finished a jumbo reply to octavulg and neither wanted to tack on a different reply nor do a double post.

 

 

UM Codex 2nd ed 1993 pg 10 reads "The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful if it could."

That sounds to me like the Codex IS THE LAW but the Authorities feel it is easier to be loose with it. So is it guidance?

What I get is thet the Codex was never enforced absolutely.

 

 

C:BT pg 6 reads "For the Space Marines, these rules were laid down in the Codex Astartes...." Rules.

I only have the BT IA with me, but I think the quote is the same (?).

 

"At the end of the Heresy, the Primarch Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines Legion devised a military organisation that would spread the power of the Legiones Astartes, Imperial Navy and Imperial Army across the galaxy, so no longer would one individual wield the power of an entire Legion again. For the Space Marines, these rules were laid down in the Codex Astartes, a mighty tome that also dealt with unit organisation, markings, tactical doctrine and all other aspects of the Maries' structure."

 

The "rules" were specifically concerning army limitations. It does not state that the organisational doctrines were rules, nor the tactical doctrines, unit amrkings and basically ALL aspects of Marines' structure. Do you really think uniform markings were mandatory? And what tactics to use? How would that ever be observable? How about other aspects such as training? All according to particular methods decreed by the Codex?

 

 

Rebel; someone who resists authority, control or convention. Whose "authority"? ~ a peer's?

 

Authoritatively; proceeding from an official source and requiring compliance or obedience.

The official Lord Commander of all Imperial forces. Dorn was resisting Imperial decree.

 

 

Dictates; lay down authoritatively, prescribe.

The dictates Dorn was resisting were all about breaking up his Legion.

 

 

Suppose; assumed on evidence but without proof.

 

Heresy; belief or opinion contrary with orthodox belief.

 

So how exactly had this not become the Roboute Guilliman show?

The High Lords of Terra were interpreting the Emperor's will. Thus, resisting decrees by the High Lords of Terra is resisting the will of the Emperor. Dorn was not really meaning to resist the Emperor's will, so he was only called "heretic" on a technicallity, not because he was intentionally heretical.

 

 

*I like Roboute and I like UM, but if you think that RG didn't overstep the mark, well, I think I have enough evidence to counter that position successfully.

I have not seen evidence yet.

 

 

The list for successful Primarchs goes Horus, the Lion and then Russ. I even think BL has put Dorn ahead of Russ (but that is an aside). So wouldn't the top three be the ones passing out the "wisdom" to those lagging behind?

Considering RG had the most Astartes and doesn't rank in the top 3/4 seems a bit off to me.

If you measure success in the number of victories, then Horus, Lion and Russ were the top three. If you instead measure success in the number of worlds liberated, Guilliman is number one.

 

 

Your boss can "suggest" you do something. It isn't really implied that one has a choice though, is it?

I don't think Guilliman was the boss of Alpharius. He was his equal, and his brother, but with much more experience.

If two colleagues and brothers meet, one with years of experience, one without, then I find it inevitable that the experienced brother tries to instruct the younger one. The only reason he would NOT do that is if either he did not care about the younger brother and his achievements at all, or if the younger brother would already be perfect. I don't think it was the former, but I also don't think it was the latter, so Guilliman suggesting his Codex doctrines was inevitable, no matter his personality.

 

- Guilliman was the most successful Primarch in terms of liberated worlds, state of the worlds he liberated, and low number of casualties

 

- Guilliman was making an effort to codify those very doctrines that made him so successful

 

I find it difficult to construct a scenario where Guilliman would NOT suggest his doctrines to anyone he would perceive as less successful in using different doctrines. I would even say that it would have been egoistical if he did not try to suggest his doctrines so as to improve his brother's performance. He could have kept it for himself and reaped all the glory as nuber one.