Octavulg Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 I know I make perfect sense, TEC, I once saw you claim that the GW statement in your sig was clearly accurate, and that of course the UM were more ferocious than the BA. Also, not liking the Ultramarines would seem just as valid as liking them. I've seen plenty of senseless defenses of Ultramarines, too. Or have we forgotten [the thread about their separating from the Imperium already? That said, blaming the Ultramarines for missing the Siege of Terra is a tenuous position to take. At best, you can suggest they should have sent some of their forces ahead and fought holding actions. That said, considering Guilliman ends up in command of the Imperial military afterward and dares to call Dorn a traitor, I think it's not unfair to ask "who, exactly, do you think you are?" Just don't expect an answer. Apparently, having a lot of Space Marines means you don't have to answer questions if you don't want to. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 and here we go again... WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 I know I make perfect sense, TEC, I once saw you claim that the GW statement in your sig was clearly accurate, and that of course the UM were more ferocious than the BA. Also, not liking the Ultramarines would seem just as valid as liking them. I've seen plenty of senseless defenses of Ultramarines, too. Or have we forgotten [the thread about their separating from the Imperium already? That said, blaming the Ultramarines for missing the Siege of Terra is a tenuous position to take. At best, you can suggest they should have sent some of their forces ahead and fought holding actions. That said, considering Guilliman ends up in command of the Imperial military afterward and dares to call Dorn a traitor, I think it's not unfair to ask "who, exactly, do you think you are?" Just don't expect an answer. Apparently, having a lot of Space Marines means you don't have to answer questions if you don't want to. ;) You haven't realized yet that half the time I'm just pushing your buttons to watch you dance (not you specifically)? Every few days I'll pick a strange vaguely defendable position just to see how well I can defend it and how many people take to that idea and how many people I can drive nuts with it, but it's always an argument that HAS some logic. You can't outright claim the Ultramarines AREN'T more ferocious than the Blood Angels because GW says they ARE, so I argue from there. You can't say Ultramar wouldn't be successful on it's own because right now the Imperium depends on it FAR more than it depends on the Imperium (the BfM being the one time Ultramar didn't stand on its own), so why not expand on that idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethnic Minority Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 I think the two missing legions disappointed me the most, they didn't even bother showing up. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 On the angron note... does it matter if it was on the ship or planet? The emperor could of easily let Angron kill his enemies on the planet and just stood by ready to teleport in if needed. Instead of just jumping in without doing any research as to what was going on down on the planet. Second thing... where does Angron end up in the end? On his ship killing his own commanders. And kharne has to explain that they are warriors, that the emperor is the greatest warrior... etc. Ok what if the Emperor fought angron one on one and bested him, might angron have been a littie more understanding of the situation, not killed his own commanders etc. I think the Emperor is the biggest disapointment. The whole galaxy is falling apart and he is just sitting in his basement working on random gadgets.... Might a whole lot of situations been different if he came out earlier? There are a few primarchs he could of prevented from leaving. Magnus is obvious, but he probably could of kept Alpharius and Perturabo as well if he was being proactive and meeting with his primarchs. And who lets Angron lead an army before getting him under control? Reading this argument just makes me think... huh? He kills your men, so you drop him off with his own legion, he kills some more, and then he is expected to lead them around the galaxy? You want loyal servants, he just beheaded your bodyguard and tried to kill you! I think he needs some more attention before you let him loose on his own :( . Lorgar basically stops doing anything after you tell him to stop worshipping you. He locks himself in his room and doesn't come out for a long time. Ummmm he is your son right? Might be a time to call up and say, 'heys it your dad.......' And from reading the HH books it seems like you never hear from the Emperor on any matter. Its always the high lords of terra. Ok imagine the Emperor was getting in contact with each primarch at least once a month and just checking in. Might Perturabo have told him he didn't like 10 marines garrisoning a planet with millions of hostiles, and the Emperor saw what was happening and prevented it? Might Alpharius have mentioned he was hunting down the Cabal, and sparked the Emperor's interest, giving him a chance to talk Alpharius out of it.... 'son, they are aliens, and they are trying to turn us against each other, can't you see that?' Might Anrgon have said, 'screw you dad!' which would hopefully lead to a more meaningful conversation? Might he have noticed Horus acting strangely? Might he have noticed Fulgrim talking about installing speakers in his warrior's mouths? Etc. etc. etc. The heresy is the Emperor's fault plain and simple. He creates 20 perfect generals to lead his armies and then he puts a couple of humans(high lords of terra) in charge of everything with absolutely no oversight. What great leader never contacts his 20 most important people, what leader never contats his generals in a time of war, what father never contacts his sons? A very good point. The Emperor is a bit lacking in development fluffwise. And his behaviour is 'odd' (even inefficient) to say the least... despite his 'perfection'/'superiority'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Well, from reading Collected Visions, while the Ultramarines finally managed to triumph at Calth they got absolutely smashed in the process. Much of their fleet was destroyed as well which would have made their relocation difficult. Horus recognised the obstacle they represented (in terms of the size of their Legion if nothing else) on the path to Terra, which is why he went through such pains to remove them from the picture - having a WB force stationed at Terra pretending to be loyalist for instance, while all the while preparing a devestating surprise attack on the Ultramarines system. Although its not specifically mentioned, I suppose the only criticism you could level at the UM revolves around their 'splinter' expeditions not returning to Terra once it became obvious where Horus' target lay. As one of the largest Legions you could imagine them to be spread around many parts of the Galaxy, yet they all returned to Calth rather than Terra once the assault on the world began. Again though this isn't a specific criticism, there are many factors which could have been involved which meant that they couldnt return to Earth (warp storms for instance.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 According to the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines (repeated in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines), they did not even hear of Horus' treason until Earth was already under attack. There was no opportunity for them to anticipate Horus' goal and prepare the defense of terra. All they could do was try to get there was fast as possible and support the defenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 The timeline is inconsistant, the Word Bearers attacked Calth at the same time as Isstvan which was months/years before the Siege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 I don't know the Black Library sources. Where are those events described? In the Word Bearers Index Astartes Kor Phaeron was attacking Calth at the same time as Lorgar was leading the rest of the Legion against Terra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Hmm, ok I will try and summarise it as best I can as written in Collected Visions (which is the turn of events that the HH book series should follow) - As Horus was attacking the loyalist Legions on Istvaan III, he ordered Lorgar to assault the UM who were mustering at Calth (as per Horus' order) - Meanwhile, in order to keep their allignment a secret, Lorgar ordered Sor Talgron to remain on station near Sol with 40 companies to maintain the pretence. - the attack led by Kor Phaeron totally took the UM by surprise, numbering 'over 100,000 marines and many more that number of cultists', most of the UM fleet was destroyed and even some planets within the Calth system by the WB fleet weaponry. Many of the ground forces were destroyed, only isolated pockets of UM remaining although they had managed to stem the tide. - The only other mention they receive is that Dorn had 'had no word' of either their or the DA's whereabouts, and had to plan the defense of the palace without them. I think its only through Gulliman's tactical prowess that the Legion survived at all, and managed to prevent another Traitor legion from assaulting Terra. But based on this, I don't think its a valid criticism to say that they should have been at Terra defending the palace as it simply wasn't possible. I don't think the IA timeline is going to be used in the HH books - Lorgar and Kor Phaeron were attacking Calth shortly after Horus began his attacks on the loyalist Legions, and Lorgar or the WB are not mentioned as being present on Terra. There is also a 7 year gap between Istvaan and the final assault on Terra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 I guess then we have a prime example of where the Horus Heresy series is in disagreement with a very recent Codex book. IIRC the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines was released after some of the Horus Heresy books, wasn't it? I mean, my stance on Black Library fluff is set, but there are usually allways people who advocate it as canon. In this particular case we have the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, the 3rd Edition Index Astartes Word Bearers and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines describing that the Word Bearers were attacking Calth at the time the rest of the Word Bearers were attacking Earth or that the Ultramarines only learned of the treason when Earth was under attack. Contrary to those sources we have the Horus Heresy Collected Visions and I assume some of the other Horus Heresy books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Well at the moment its only Collected Visions so I guess they might change it when the books covering Calth are released, but at the moment the books have followed those original art books almost to the letter. As the author of Collected Visions is one of the main orchestrators of the HH book series I'm sure it will probably be pretty similar. I suppose really it comes down to the efforts that half a dozen writers are making and are going to be making over the next decade, a book series which is probably going to number 30 novels or more and tens of thousands of pages of information, versus a few paragraphs blurb in the front of a codex. For anyone who wants to try and recreate a Heresy era force or even the events themselves, there is only really one option for source material! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Those short blurbs are what every player will be reading, as ist comes in the source book for his chosen faction. The Horus Heresy books are optional, and intended to entertain, not to inform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnjagster1 Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 The legion that disappointed me the most were the Emperor's Children -_- . Did you forget that the Emperor is in your name and you all got to wear aquilas when no one else could? You have all been demoted to Emperor's Orphans. The primarch that disappointed me the most was Johnson. If Horus won he probably would of shown up and been like, "Who needs the Emperor, I was really always on your side Horus." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrahawk Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 ...The primarch that disappointed me the most was Johnson. If Horus won he probably would of shown up and been like, "Who needs the Emperor, I was really always on your side Horus." Yeah, just like in Fallen Angels. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Those short blurbs are what every player will be reading, as ist comes in the source book for his chosen faction. The Horus Heresy books are optional, and intended to entertain, not to inform. Theres an entire gaming community (which is pretty sizeable, going on the Tempus Fugitive events) which has sprouted from the HH books and Collected Visions, and IMO its the biggest injection of fresh material and modelling ideas that the 40k game system has received probably since 2nd edition was released. Fortunately, this is because people have felt they could go beyond the material in the codecies - I still get the odd person (usually younger players) wondering why my world eaters are white and blue and not red, but then its a great deal of fun explaining to them about the Heresy and I'm sure alot of the time those same people will then want to go and pick up some of the BL books as a result! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I am certain players can be inspired by non-40K material? It helps if that material gives the impression of being canonical though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnjagster1 Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I never read Fallen Angels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrahawk Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I never read Fallen Angels... Oh, in that case I can heartily recommend it. It's a good read and gives nice insight on the whole "waiting to see who would win" theory concerning the Lion. It might change your mind about the Lion's motives... doesn't mean you'll become his biggest fan though, since he's not a really outgoing person. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnjagster1 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Thanks, I guess I plan to read it after let the Galaxy Burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Thanks, I guess I plan to read it after let the Galaxy Burn. Your first problem is reading that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorceror of Tzeentch Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 the two most dissapointing legions in my eyes are the two that have been scrubed from imperial records! like that is the ultimate fail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 As a Black Templar guy I think ironically I'm supposed to be the most disappointed in my own primarch, Rogal Dorn. After all, it's why we've been on the longest Crusade in history, to atone for his failure to protect the Emperor. DING DING DING!!!!!! BINGO! I love / HATE how Dorn has gotten a compleet pass on this thread. All this effort spent on trying to ruffle the feathers of the UM players and the one responsible for the biggest failures of the HH gets over looked. And yet I find myself unable to feel that way, because of all the primarchs, Dorn struck me as the most willing to admit to his shortcomings and to take action to improve. Hence, our glorious chapter came to be. The rest tended to find blame in others. Sometimes that was justified, sometimes it was mere scapegoating. (I'm looking at YOU, Gulliman.) So now you Imperial fist players are going to try and add the word Humble to the list of Dorns traits??? NOT!! Personally, I do not blame what happened to the Emperor on Dorn. Had it not been for his genius, the Emperor would not have survived long enough to teleport to Horus' ship. Nevertheless we fight to atone. It is what warriors do. See that's the Problem with those who have had to much Imperial Fist Cool Aid to drink. All you can see is how Dorn "Heroically" defend the Emperor. How about being responsible for the destruction of 3 of the most loyal legions on Istavaan V? How about not actually succeeding in defending the Emperor? The Emp was Mortally wounded. To me that = FAIL. He knew this and that is why he went to the Iron Cage. I think Dorn either was the puppet of Horus or let his ambition to be the Warmaster influence him, or maybe both. Failing to see through the Legions that turned traitor on Istavaan V was a fail on its own. That was not the worse part though. The inclusion of the Night Lords as has been talked about above and by me on other threads is by far the biggest bone head maneuver of the whole HH. I really think Dorn wanted Horus to attack Terra so he could prove what he boasted he could do, defend Terra against all comers. Witch he Failed at. wait, what official source states Corax was against psykers? I know Mortarion and Russ were, but it just seems out of place for him to dislike psykers. Corax was one of the biggest opponents of psykers. Corax and Dorn both refused to allow their troops to fight along side those who used them. The info about it is in the Collected Visions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 See that's the Problem with those who have had to much Imperial Fist Cool Aid to drink. All you can see is how Dorn "Heroically" defend the Emperor. How about making being responsible for the destruction of 3 of the most loyal legions on Istavaan V? Uh...Dorn is responsible for Manus attacking early and four legions secretly being traitors? Really? Furthermore, the Emperor can't notice these people turning traitor but Dorn is supposed to work it out by himself? Uh...right. How about not actually succeeding in defending the Emperor? The Emp was Mortally wounded. To me that = FAIL. He knew this and that is why he went to the Iron Cage. I think Dorn either was the puppet of Horus or let his ambition to be the Warmaster influence him, or maybe both. Failing to see through the Legions that turned traitor on Istavaan V was a fail on its own. That was not the worse part though. The inclusion of the Night Lords as has been talked about above and by me on other threads is by far the biggest bone head maneuver of the whole HH. I really think Dorn wanted Horus to attack Terra so he could prove what he boasted he could do, defend Terra against all comers. Witch he Failed at. How is defending Terra from over five legions when all you have is three some kind of failure? Horus engaged the Emperor one-on-one because he didn't expect to break into the Palace before reinforcements arrived for the loyalists. Dorn was holding out successfully. Also, Dorn deals with his failures by sinking into depression and going on a penitent crusade. Guilliman deals with his by making everyone else do things his way. That is why Guilliman gets more crap - because Dorn feels he could have (and should have) done better, while Guilliman seems to feel he did just fine. You can argue which reaction is more appropriate to the situation, but Guilliman's is far less sympathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Also, Dorn deals with his failures by sinking into depression and going on a penitent crusade. Guilliman deals with his by making everyone else do things his way. That is why Guilliman gets more crap - because Dorn feels he could have (and should have) done better, while Guilliman seems to feel he did just fine. You can argue which reaction is more appropriate to the situation, but Guilliman's is far less sympathetic. Aside from the fact that it is a misrepresentation of events, based on a personal disliking for the character, it is a somewhat amusing comment. It' slike saying "Guilliman united Ultramar and made it into a 40K-utopia where the people have peace and wealth..." and then adding "...because he wanted everyone to live their lives his way" to desperately find some fault in it. ;) I would argue that even if it had been Sanguinius or Jonson who had been tasked with reorganising the Imperial military after the heresy, the Legions would still have been divided. It was more dictated by circumstances, and not so much by Guillimans perception of the optimal size of a Space Marine army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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