Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I just want to point out the last person placed in charge of the Imperium's armed forces was Dorn, done so by the Emperor himself, not some council of politicians. (Collected Visions)

 

 

WLK

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Er...it's pointed out in the Alpha Legion IA that "while these methods took longer to execute than a simple frontal assault, they were far less costly in troops, enabling Alpharius to spread his forces more widely."

Fewer troops, that operate for a longer period of time = no resources saved.

 

No extra resources lost either. Is the glass half full or half empty? Alpharius sees it as half-full, while Guilliman sees it as half-empty.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Jeeeez.... This thread has entered full blown WALL OF TEXT mode.... @_@

[Legatus]

No extra resources lost either.

That would depend on the relation between time spent and troops commited. While we cannot say for sure how it would work out in general, at least that particular show off campaign was criticised for being wasteful.

[jb85]

Er...it's pointed out in the Alpha Legion IA that "while these methods took longer to execute than a simple frontal assault, they were far less costly in troops, enabling Alpharius to spread his forces more widely."

Fewer troops, that operate for a longer period of time = no resources saved.

 

No extra resources lost either. Is the glass half full or half empty? Alpharius sees it as half-full, while Guilliman sees it as half-empty.

 

Time is a resource as much as men and material.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Er...it's pointed out in the Alpha Legion IA that "while these methods took longer to execute than a simple frontal assault, they were far less costly in troops, enabling Alpharius to spread his forces more widely."

Fewer troops, that operate for a longer period of time = no resources saved.

No extra resources lost either. Is the glass half full or half empty? Alpharius sees it as half-full, while Guilliman sees it as half-empty.

Time is a resource as much as men and material.

 

That's only a criticism if you look at the example of a single world. Looking at the whole, in a given period of time Alpharius will have taken as many worlds as Guilliman. Whilst Guilliman deals with them quickly, but one at a time, Alpharius spends the time taking all the target worlds at the same time. His methods take longer, but can be done simultaneously on other systems.

 

That said, that theory is dependent on war being simple maths (which it isn't - too many random factors), and it means Guilliman has a much greater chance of improving his speed than Alpharius (everybody can learn at the same time - with the Alpha Legion the experience would have to be learnt and then passed on).

[Lay]

Time is a resource as much as men and material.

 

That's only a criticism if you look at the example of a single world. Looking at the whole, in a given period of time Alpharius will have taken as many worlds as Guilliman. Whilst Guilliman deals with them quickly, but one at a time, Alpharius spends the time taking all the target worlds at the same time. His methods take longer, but can be done simultaneously on other systems.

 

That said, that theory is dependent on war being simple maths (which it isn't - too many random factors), and it means Guilliman has a much greater chance of improving his speed than Alpharius (everybody can learn at the same time - with the Alpha Legion the experience would have to be learnt and then passed on).

I don't remember the AL being described as being able to conquer multiple worlds simultaneously. They were (and are) specialized in attacking a single target in a multitude of ways, which required a them to focus considerable resources into each conquest. Add Alpharius penchant to take the most challenging way and it becomes obvious why they were moving at a slower pace than some of the older Legions.

In terms of efficiency, the only true benefactor of the Alpha Legion's methods were the Alphas themselves.

 

As for Guilliman confronting Alpharius, people forget that the Alphas' dishonest means earned them the mistrust of other allied imperial forces as well.

[Octavulg]

Legatus:

Basically: "Here is the Codex, it is mostly a guide, but includes some decrees." It was not exactly a secret that he was working on the Codex Astartes, and he would have presented it without all the decrees sooner or later anyway. And since it was intended to be "anything Space Marine" it makes sense to include their duties and responsibilities as well.

 

It could have been. But so far, it's been pointed out that the Codex is presented as a whole, it is described as orders, the Adeptus Terra are described as choosing not to enforce its dictates, and a civil war nearly broke out over its adoption. I don't think it was presented as suggestions (hell, what evidence is there that it was, other than the fact that nobody is recorded as complaining specifically about those other parts of it).

 

There is a difference between the military reforms that are necessary for the safety of the Imperium and your pet project on how you think Space Marines should fight. Tying one to the other is unprofessional, even if your pet project is right. Forcing your personal foibles down the throats of people who used to be your equals or superiors is bad leadership, and you'd be stupid to try it, or even make it look like you were.

 

Yes, as I said in a later post, Alpharius was putting on an extra show on that occasion. But his point was to demonstrate that his doctrines work well, so I assume he did not stray too much from his usual modus operandi other than giving the enemy forces a bit more time to prepare to make it more difficult for himself.

 

So...his ways were massively effective, resulted in minimal losses, and took a week longer than usual?

 

Sounds like a sweet deal to me!

 

Fewer troops, that operate for a longer period of time = no resources saved.

 

=/=resources wasted, though.

 

Their campaigns were so well planned and intricate that it was virtually impossiblefor the Alpha Legion to lose. They also took longer to undertake, that much is obvious. In the particular case of the "show off" campaign the wasteful use of resources is also criticised, but we cannot say how much of that was only due to the extra effort put in. However, if Guilliman thinks you are inefficient (no matter what yo umight think of the an) then you are probably inefficient.

 

It is pointed out in the IA that Guilliman has some biases towards certain ways of fighting, and that Alpharius moves pretty much in the exact opposite direction in his approach to warfare. He fights more like an Eldar.

 

Plus, Guilliman calls them inefficient after they've had a big argument over philosophy and its become clear Alpharius doesn't think much of Guilliman's pet ideas. I don't think he's objective at that point.

 

Furthermore, the one time the Alpha Legion and Guilliman go head to head, Guilliman does something outside the Codex, succeeds with what he does, and still doesn't win because the Alpha Legion are so decentralized and have such a redundant command structure. He then has to run away and bombard from orbit.

 

That's not exactly a winning endorsement of his position, or his ability to objectively evaluate the strategies of others when they move to far outside his experience.

 

For a more real-world example - the US fighting any insurgency, ever.

 

Well, it was a factual statement, and reinforcing what Guilliman had tried to argue for the whole time. I was trying to imply, though, that Guilliman had probably refered to his track record throughout the debate, and not just brought the point up before leaving.

 

Likely. But again, you are moving past what the text says. It flat out says that Guilliman realized Alpharius wasn't going to give in just because Guilliman was more experienced, so he told Alpharius he would never measure up to the thousands of victories Guilliman's legion had won.

 

That's not citing your history as evidence. That's telling your brother you're better than he is because you can't win the argument, so you want to get him angry. It's petty. The Alpha Legion had been around for a few decades before Alpharius was found, and Alpharius was found quite late - of course you have more victories than he does. Doesn't prove a damn thing, other than you've been around longer and aren't completely incompetent.

 

I dunno, he was kind of grumpy...

 

And, as Dorn and Guilliman demonstrate, being a grumpy jerk who can't get along with anyone else is the key to victory and success! Dorn is less grumpy than Guilliman, and ends up in second place, while Vulkan, Khan and Corax are basically completely forgotten and Russ gets remembered somewhat more. If Perturabo were loyal, he'd have lead the Imperium. -_-

 

What I get is thet the Codex was never enforced absolutely.

 

Except that the fact the term "enforce" is applied to it means that it is basically law. Unenforced laws are still laws, and people complain about them nonetheless.

 

The "rules" were specifically concerning army limitations. It does not state that the organisational doctrines were rules, nor the tactical doctrines, unit amrkings and basically ALL aspects of Marines' structure. Do you really think uniform markings were mandatory? And what tactics to use? How would that ever be observable? How about other aspects such as training? All according to particular methods decreed by the Codex?

 

Dunno. Doesn't change the fact that tying all those things to the Codex wasn't necessary, and that the Codex's presentation as a whole means that those were presented as orders right along with it.

 

I find it difficult to construct a scenario where Guilliman would NOT suggest his doctrines to anyone he would perceive as less successful in using different doctrines. I would even say that it would have been egoistical if he did not try to suggest his doctrines so as to improve his brother's performance. He could have kept it for himself and reaped all the glory as nuber on

 

It's also egotistical to think that your way of fighting is the only way to do things. Guilliman demonstrates that quite clearly, when as soon as he's losing the debate he resorts to belittling Alpharius' accomplishments and boasting about his own. At that point, he pretty clearly doesn't want to help Alpharius, and if he got that defensive it is a good question if he ever did.

 

* * *

 

Lay:

I don't remember the AL being described as being able to conquer multiple worlds simultaneously. They were (and are) specialized in attacking a single target in a multitude of ways, which required a them to focus considerable resources into each conquest.

 

Read their IA. It points out that since their tactics require fewer men, it lets them spread out further.

 

Add Alpharius penchant to take the most challenging way and it becomes obvious why they were moving at a slower pace than some of the older Legions.

 

Nothing says they were moving at a slower pace than the old Legions.

 

In terms of efficiency, the only true benefactor of the Alpha Legion's methods were the Alphas themselves.

 

The only true benefactor of most legion's methods were themselves. Furthermore, we don't know that Alpharius didn't write down how he fought - Perturabo did, and if Perturabo did I think anyone would.

 

As for Guilliman confronting Alpharius, people forget that the Alphas' dishonest means earned them the mistrust of other allied imperial forces as well.

 

Yeah. Because not standing up in brightly colored armor and blasting away at enemies screaming about the Emperor is clearly a sign of deep character defects.

 

I wouldn't go down that road. At best, Guilliman comes out looking like an idiot.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Yeah. Because not standing up in brightly colored armor and blasting away at enemies screaming about the Emperor is clearly a sign of deep character defects.

 

I wouldn't go down that road. At best, Guilliman comes out looking like an idiot.

 

I guess it does fit in with the 18th Century mentality that GW have applied to 40k warfare though. -_-

[Octavulg]

I refuse to fight like it's the eighteenth century until my marines get rank bonuses.

[Legatus]

It could have been. But so far, it's been pointed out that the Codex is presented as a whole, it is described as orders, the Adeptus Terra are described as choosing not to enforce its dictates, and a civil war nearly broke out over its adoption. I don't think it was presented as suggestions (hell, what evidence is there that it was, other than the fact that nobody is recorded as complaining specifically about those other parts of it).

 

There is a difference between the military reforms that are necessary for the safety of the Imperium and your pet project on how you think Space Marines should fight. Tying one to the other is unprofessional, even if your pet project is right. Forcing your personal foibles down the throats of people who used to be your equals or superiors is bad leadership, and you'd be stupid to try it, or even make it look like you were.

This is what the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines has to say about the Codex Astartes:

 

"For all its multitudinous topics, the most lasting and contentious decree of the Codex Astartes was that the existing Space Marine Legions be broken down as Chapters. Though many of his brother Primarchs initially railed against Guilliman's decree, almost all eventually accepted the necessity of the Codex."

p. 7

 

"One of the key objectives of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these genetic weaknesses. The Codex decreed that Space Marines would be created and trained slowly."

p. 8

 

"The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of Space Marines. These guidelines have been much modified over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the 41st Millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. (..)As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text in many quarters. Some Chapters even regard the recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself."

p. 9

 

Edit: The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines (p. 10) also continued with this (it was rephrased in teh 5th Edition Codex):

"Not all Chapters follow the strict organisational and tactical guidelines of the Codex Astartes. Those that do are sometimes referred to as Codex Chapters. These Space Marines adhere to the Codex as the model of their organisation and identification markings." End Edit.

 

Could it be expressed any clearer that the contents of the Codex Astartes are not all of the same nature, that it is not simply a list of laws?

 

-> Breaking up of the Legions = "decree", resistance from other primarchs against this specific decree

 

-> Controlled creation and training of Marines = "decree"

 

-> tactical roles, equipment specifications, uniform markings = "guidelines", "treatise", "recommendations"

 

 

So...his ways were massively effective, resulted in minimal losses, and took a week longer than usual?

Two weeks. And heavier fighting than would have been necessary, so more material resources spent. Not to mention the colateral damage to the planets infra structure and population.

 

 

Plus, Guilliman calls them inefficient after they've had a big argument over philosophy and its become clear Alpharius doesn't think much of Guilliman's pet ideas. I don't think he's objective at that point.

Meh, I figured that since Guilliman suggested his doctrines in the first place he already had the impression that the Alpha Legion could need it.

 

 

Furthermore, the one time the Alpha Legion and Guilliman go head to head, Guilliman does something outside the Codex, succeeds with what he does, and still doesn't win because the Alpha Legion are so decentralized and have such a redundant command structure. He then has to run away and bombard from orbit.

 

That's not exactly a winning endorsement of his position, or his ability to objectively evaluate the strategies of others when they move to far outside his experience.

I think the Ultramarines did not win because they had never before faced a foe that used guerilla tactics. Or jammed communications. Or used spies. They were completely dumbfounded by the tactics the Alpha Legion employed (so appearently Guilliman was the only one arguing tactics in their debate, while Alpharius just went "lalalalala"). He did not anticipate that any foe could employ such insideous tactics and did not have the courtesy to

just as they did.

 

 

That's not citing your history as evidence. That's telling your brother you're better than he is because you can't win the argument, so you want to get him angry. It's petty. The Alpha Legion had been around for a few decades before Alpharius was found, and Alpharius was found quite late - of course you have more victories than he does. Doesn't prove a damn thing, other than you've been around longer and aren't completely incompetent.

It is also a prediction that were the Alpha Legion to adopt the Codex doctrine they would be on par with the other Legions, but since they refuse they will not be able to compete.

 

 

Except that the fact the term "enforce" is applied to it means that it is basically law. Unenforced laws are still laws, and people complain about them nonetheless.

"The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful if it could."

So aside from the fact that all the things like uniform markings and tactics are impossible (and ridiculous) to enforce, the Adeptus Terra has not felt it necessary to enforce all teh aspects of the Codex anyway. And why should it. Most of it are guidelines anyway.

 

 

Yeah. Because not standing up in brightly colored armor and blasting away at enemies screaming about the Emperor is clearly a sign of deep character defects.

I don't think it was the sneaking around that was seen as suspicious (Raven Guard are pretty good at that sort of thing too). It was probably more the subversive tactics, bribing enemies, working with colaborators.

[Gree]

[

Waitaminnit. Dorn's out on the front lines with his legion, but Guilliman has time to hang around and politick?

 

Dear God, I remember why I really, really don't like him. Because Dorn was the Emperor's right hand, appointed by that Emperor to lead his armies, and yet Guilliman doesn't seem to have any respect for that, and sneaks it away while Dorn is grieving for their lost father.

 

I'm amazed he doesn't have mustachios to twirl.

 

No insult to Dorn, but actually Guilliman was really the only one who was doing his job really. The Imperium got hit hard by the Heresy and needed to be rebuilt. dorn, as appointed Praetorian and commander of the Emperor's armies should have been commanding all the legions and rebuilding the Imperium as part of a combined effort.

 

But he did not.

 

IA Imperial Fists:

 

While the Ultramarines maintained order within the Imperium, the Imperial Fists hunted down the traitors, levelling fortress after fortress. Dorn led them, dressed in the black of mourning, his customary mercy set aside until the guilty were punished. While others shaped the new Imperium, Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice. It was rumoured that he saw the Emperor's death as his personal failure and his crusade as penance. After all, were the Traitors not his brothers? Whatever the cause, Rogal Dorn was absent from the highest councils until he was summoned back to Terra when Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines presented his Codex Astartes as the future of the Space Marines.

 

I don't know about you. But if Dorn was the Commander in Chief I would expect him to take control and help rebuild the Imperium and cooperate with others instead of going off on his own. The mere fact that he was absent from the ''highest councils'' does not speak well of his role as Commander in Chief. You know, because last time I checked, Eisenhower did not get angry and go off on the front lines and ignored his command duties during World War II.

 

I can understand why Dorn did it, but that still does not change the fact that he effectivly ignored his Commander in Chief duties and rebuilding the Imperium.

 

In addition, it's not like the Ultramarines and Guilliman did nothing.

 

IA: Ultramarines:

 

The enemies of Mankind, sensing the weakness of the Imperium, prepared to attack, but Roboute Guilliman vowed that the Emperor's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together. He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field.

 

It's pretty clear here that the Ultramarine and Guilliman themselves provided massive support while helping rebuild the Imperium at the same time. They were clearly doing more than ''petty politics''.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Legatus:

Basically: "Here is the Codex, it is mostly a guide, but includes some decrees." It was not exactly a secret that he was working on the Codex Astartes, and he would have presented it without all the decrees sooner or later anyway. And since it was intended to be "anything Space Marine" it makes sense to include their duties and responsibilities as well.

 

It could have been. But so far, it's been pointed out that the Codex is presented as a whole, it is described as orders, the Adeptus Terra are described as choosing not to enforce its dictates, and a civil war nearly broke out over its adoption. I don't think it was presented as suggestions (hell, what evidence is there that it was, other than the fact that nobody is recorded as complaining specifically about those other parts of it).

 

This is exactly right Octavulg :P

 

Plus, Guilliman calls them inefficient after they've had a big argument over philosophy and its become clear Alpharius doesn't think much of Guilliman's pet ideas. I don't think he's objective at that point.

 

This is exactly how it reads. Guilliman says "Hey AO what do you reckon about my way of fighting? ~ maybe you should fight like that?" (which is successful, let's not be mean here) and AO says "No, I think not". RG is cut and then slanders AO about his lack of ability and his lack of future greatness.

How can that been seen as anything but RG belligerence, arrogance and vanity?

 

Furthermore, the one time the Alpha Legion and Guilliman go head to head, Guilliman does something outside the Codex, succeeds with what he does, and still doesn't win because the Alpha Legion are so decentralized and have such a redundant command structure. He then has to run away and bombard from orbit.

That's not exactly a winning endorsement of his position, or his ability to objectively evaluate the strategies of others when they move to far outside his experience.

 

This again shows that RG ways were a good way but NOT the way. If RG was sooo right, wouldn't he have smoked them? A Primarch was sent home tail between his legs after A had been killed ~ that might get a pass mark at best.

 

Well, it was a factual statement, and reinforcing what Guilliman had tried to argue for the whole time. I was trying to imply, though, that Guilliman had probably refered to his track record throughout the debate, and not just brought the point up before leaving.

 

Likely. But again, you are moving past what the text says. It flat out says that Guilliman realized Alpharius wasn't going to give in just because Guilliman was more experienced, so he told Alpharius he would never measure up to the thousands of victories Guilliman's legion had won.

 

That's not citing your history as evidence. That's telling your brother you're better than he is because you can't win the argument, so you want to get him angry. It's petty. The Alpha Legion had been around for a few decades before Alpharius was found, and Alpharius was found quite late - of course you have more victories than he does. Doesn't prove a damn thing, other than you've been around longer and aren't completely incompetent.

 

That is right again. :D

 

What I get is thet the Codex was never enforced absolutely.

That means it isn't enforced, not that it "shouldn't be".

 

Except that the fact the term "enforce" is applied to it means that it is basically law. Unenforced laws are still laws, and people complain about them nonetheless.

:woot: :yes: :huh:

 

The "rules" were specifically concerning army limitations. It does not state that the organisational doctrines were rules, nor the tactical doctrines, unit amrkings and basically ALL aspects of Marines' structure. Do you really think uniform markings were mandatory? And what tactics to use? How would that ever be observable? How about other aspects such as training? All according to particular methods decreed by the Codex?

 

Dunno. Doesn't change the fact that tying all those things to the Codex wasn't necessary, and that the Codex's presentation as a whole means that those were presented as orders right along with it.

:D :D :D

 

I find it difficult to construct a scenario where Guilliman would NOT suggest his doctrines to anyone he would perceive as less successful in using different doctrines. I would even say that it would have been egoistical if he did not try to suggest his doctrines so as to improve his brother's performance. He could have kept it for himself and reaped all the glory as nuber on

 

If RG was the number 1 planet taker, that means according his philosophy of dispensing his way of doing things, he should have lectured all the Primarchs. We don't see that. Why is that?

 

It's also egotistical to think that your way of fighting is the only way to do things. Guilliman demonstrates that quite clearly, when as soon as he's losing the debate he resorts to belittling Alpharius' accomplishments and boasting about his own. At that point, he pretty clearly doesn't want to help Alpharius, and if he got that defensive it is a good question if he ever did.

 

YES!

 

* * *

Furthermore, the one time the Alpha Legion and Guilliman go head to head, Guilliman does something outside the Codex, succeeds with what he does, and still doesn't win because the Alpha Legion are so decentralized and have such a redundant command structure. He then has to run away and bombard from orbit.

That's not exactly a winning endorsement of his position, or his ability to objectively evaluate the strategies of others when they move to far outside his experience.

 

I think the Ultramarines did not win because they had never before faced a foe that used guerilla tactics. Or jammed communications. Or used spies. They were completely dumbfounded by the tactics the Alpha Legion employed (so appearently Guilliman was the only one arguing tactics in their debate, while Alpharius just went "lalalalala"). He did not anticipate that any foe could employ such insideous tactics and did not have the courtesy to

just as they did.

 

But it is war ~ no holds barred. As soon as the Astartes had broken the back of a planet's main fighting force, the survivors would have fought as guerillas, it is a natural progression that we have seen in our wars here on Earth.

I think the Eldar could use such a method from the very beginning of any conflict.

That RG was undone by such methods shows that his ways were not THE ways of fighting.

 

That's not citing your history as evidence. That's telling your brother you're better than he is because you can't win the argument, so you want to get him angry. It's petty. The Alpha Legion had been around for a few decades before Alpharius was found, and Alpharius was found quite late - of course you have more victories than he does. Doesn't prove a damn thing, other than you've been around longer and aren't completely incompetent.

It is also a prediction that were the Alpha Legion to adopt the Codex doctrine they would be on par with the other Legions, but since they refuse they will not be able to compete.

 

And yet RG gets sent home packing, even after killing the sub-par tactics Alpharius and beheading his legion....

So who can't compete? The AL looks okay to me....

 

Except that the fact the term "enforce" is applied to it means that it is basically law. Unenforced laws are still laws, and people complain about them nonetheless.

"The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful if it could."

So aside from the fact that all the things like uniform markings and tactics are impossible (and ridiculous) to enforce, the Adeptus Terra has not felt it necessary to enforce all teh aspects of the Codex anyway. And why should it. Most of it are guidelines anyway.

 

If something is said to have to be enforced absolutely, it doesn't look like guidelines to me. Even if it is not enforced absolutely.

[Octavulg]

Could it be expressed any clearer that the contents of the Codex Astartes are not all of the same nature, that it is not simply a list of laws?

 

And as I have repeatedly said, that's how the Codex works now. We don't know how it worked then, and the fact that the rest of the Codex seems to have been an order suggests that the adoption of the whole would be, too.

 

Furthermore, even in the passages you cite, the 'guidelines' are described as "strict" and "defin[ing]". And on top of that, there's this bit: "...the most lasting and contentious decree...", in reference to the breakup into chapters, which raises the question of whether these other parts, as I have suggested repeatedly, were decrees and have since declined in importance for one of any number of reasons - including that people initially refused to obey them.

 

It's been ten thousand years and the original proposal nearly sparked a civil war. I suspect compromise may have been reached.

 

Two weeks. And heavier fighting than would have been necessary, so more material resources spent. Not to mention the colateral damage to the planets infra structure and population.

 

I suggest you reread the description of the battle.

 

He took an extra week to prepare for his assault on the capital, which gave the enemy time to assemble more troops and then dig in. The attack that followed was highly focused - "huge sections of the defensive line untouched" is the phrase used. And when it's all done, one week after the first attack (two weeks total), the enemy have taken 90% casualties and, I suspect, been well and truly defeated.

 

The number of enemy forces did not change - they would still have needed killing. The battles that took place were more focused than otherwise, which presumably would limit damage to both infrastructure and population. Frankly, I think the strategy pursued likely worked better than the alternative.

 

If Alpharius had immediately assaulted the capital city, he would have had less preparation time, and some enemies might have escaped. There might have been running battles through the city. The enemy's field army might have attacked the city, which would have been a hell of a lot of damage.

 

I'm not convinced waiting wasn't a reasonable choice in the circumstance.

 

Meh, I figured that since Guilliman suggested his doctrines in the first place he already had the impression that the Alpha Legion could need it.

 

The problem is that Guilliman thinks everyone needs his input. :blush: And he doesn't take kindly to being told no.

 

I think the Ultramarines did not win because they had never before faced a foe that used guerilla tactics. Or jammed communications. Or used spies.

 

Then their experience of warfare has been incredibly limited, and Guilliman has no business telling anyone how to fight anything.

 

They were completely dumbfounded by the tactics the Alpha Legion employed (so appearently Guilliman was the only one arguing tactics in their debate, while Alpharius just went "lalalalala").

 

I'm trying to decide whether this is a sarcastic shot at Guilliman or a shot at Alpharius.

 

Personally, I think it's some persuasive evidence that Alpharius was listening and Guilliman wasn't. :D

 

He did not anticipate that any foe could employ such insideous tactics and did not have the courtesy to line up just as they did.

 

You're really not presenting your Primarch in a favorable light here, you realize.

 

"The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful if it could."

So aside from the fact that all the things like uniform markings and tactics are impossible (and ridiculous) to enforce, the Adeptus Terra has not felt it necessary to enforce all teh aspects of the Codex anyway. And why should it. Most of it are guidelines anyway.

 

Again, you are trying to draw distinctions between some parts of the Codex and others. The Codex is a whole. In this sentence, the Adeptus Terra doesn't enforce the whole thing - but the fact that they don't implies that they could or are perhaps supposed to.

 

It is also a prediction that were the Alpha Legion to adopt the Codex doctrine they would be on par with the other Legions, but since they refuse they will not be able to compete.

 

Maybe. More likely, I think it's just Guilliman being petty.

 

Also, keep in mind - none of the other legions fight using the Codex at this point. Yet the Alphas are not noted as being particularly less efficient than any of the others.

 

To me, it looks a lot like Guilliman trying to bully a younger, less experienced brother into doing things his way, with the aid of his superior experience and knowledge.

 

I don't think it was the sneaking around that was seen as suspicious (Raven Guard are pretty good at that sort of thing too). It was probably more the subversive tactics, bribing enemies, working with colaborators.

 

Collaboraters are people who are loyal to you before you were the established government. They're arguably a good thing.

 

In a war machine that tolerated the World Eaters, the Word Bearers and the Night Lords for longer than the Alpha Legion, I find it implausible that the Alpha Legion would draw particular suspicion.

 

* * *

Gree:

 

See, one line would change my impression of Guilliman in the situation:

"Guilliman begged Dorn to remember his responsibilities to the Imperium, but Dorn's grief made him heedless."

 

No such line, no respect for Guilliman.

 

Yeah, Dorn was out of line. On the other hand, he'd held the dying Emperor in his arms and watched waves of demons crash against the Imperial Palace. He'd seen thousands of good men and once-good men die. He'd looked into hell itself. A minor lapse is understandable, and the appropriate thing to do for a brother who has undergone such an experience is to try and help him get through it and do his job (and if he won't do that, then you kick him out and do what must be done).

 

Guilliman doesn't do that. Which adds "lousy friend/brother" to the long, long list of things he's lousy at being, despite the aggrandizement thrown his way.

 

Really, the only Primarchs who don't make incredibly stupid mistakes seem to be Jaghatai and Vulkan. Why couldn't they be in charge?

[Marshal Rohr]

Oct-y, I don't even know what you are arguing so elaboratly anymore. That Guilliman shouldn't have presented the Codex? That he was really power hungry? That he was a jerk?

 

 

Well, like you said he was a jerk, but all the primarchs are jerks, except Sanguinius of course. It is part of the 'Politics of Mt. Olympus' that GW goes for with the Primarchs.

 

Was the codex a good idea? Yes. A large conglomeration of tactics and material to wage war is always appropriate.

 

Was the splitting of the legions a good idea? It doesn't matter because it wasn't his call to make, but it has worked out ok. Think about it, chapters are essentially quick reaction forces. A legion is an offensive conquering force, and now when space marines go a'conquering they do it in legion like elements from multiple chapters. The only thing that has truly changed is color scheme and now all the companies are identical.

 

Was Guilliman right? Hardly, but that doesn't changed the fact that his work was important. Things needed to get done and he did them in spite if criticism.

 

The AL incident is just poor writing, obviously he would know how to deal with guerilla warfare, he was a primarch. That whole scenario is just poorly done.

[Gree]

See, one line would change my impression of Guilliman in the situation:

"Guilliman begged Dorn to remember his responsibilities to the Imperium, but Dorn's grief made him heedless."

 

No such line, no respect for Guilliman.

 

Why does he need such a line? It's pretty obvious what his actions implied. Guilliman went with his duty as a Primarch, not as a family member. He is not suposed to play therapist to Dorn. He controled his emotions and buckled down to get the job done. In fact, were does it say he did not try to tell Dorn to calm down? Seems to be the text is vauge enough for it.

 

In fact Guilliman probably had little chance to see Dorn anyway if he was missing form even the ''higest councils''. It's implied in IA Imperial Fists that Dorn effectivly ran off with his legion and ignored everything else. Given that fact and combined with such massive monumental duties as the Scouring and rebuilding the Imperium it's no suprise that Guilliman did not have much contact with the increasingly isolationist Dorn.

 

When Guilliman summoned Dorn to Terra to present the Codex, it might have been the first time he had seen his brother in years. Guilliman probably would have met a completely different person than he was used to.

 

Yeah, Dorn was out of line. On the other hand, he'd held the dying Emperor in his arms and watched waves of demons crash against the Imperial Palace. He'd seen thousands of good men and once-good men die. He'd looked into hell itself. A minor lapse is understandable, and the appropriate thing to do for a brother who has undergone such an experience is to try and help him get through it and do his job (and if he won't do that, then you kick him out and do what must be done).

 

I'm sorry, last time I checked Guilliman was a superhuman warrior and leader who had his hands full with rebuilding an Empire, not a threapist. In fact I would point out that the Emperor along with most of the primarchs were not that good at personal relationships anyway.

 

But the fact is that Dorn did not furfill his duties and Guilliman was forced to step up to the plate. What Dorn did not not a minor lapse. He was Commander in Chief of the entire Imperium by word of the Emperor. In the aftermath of the Heresy his duty was to help maintain and rebuild everything his father made, not charge off on vengance quests. He effectivly left the rebuilding of the Imperium and his rank as Commander in Chief to Guilliman. In some militaries that can even be construted as dereliction of duty.

 

Should Guilliman have tried to help Dorn? Maybe. Was the rebuilding of the Imperium and the Scouring more important? Yes. It was far, far, far, far more important than trying to help your brother who had run off to do his own thing and was ignoring even the highest councils.

 

Guilliman doesn't do that. Which adds "lousy friend/brother" to the long, long list of things he's lousy at being, despite the aggrandizement thrown his way.

 

Again, that's not his job or duty at all. And Guilliman's first and most important obligation is to the Imperium. Everything else is secondary.

 

Really, the only Primarchs who don't make incredibly stupid mistakes seem to be Jaghatai and Vulkan. Why couldn't they be in charge?

 

Vulkan went missing at Istvaan remember? And as for Jaghatai, Guilliman was better are reorganising and rebuilding things. His personal relationships should be completely inrevelant in the task of rebuilding the Imperium. Guilliman has a greater duty to helping an entire galatic empire than playing nursemaid to Dorn.

[c-wrex]

*snip*

Really, the only Primarchs who don't make incredibly stupid mistakes seem to be Jaghatai and Vulkan. Why couldn't they be in charge?

 

WORD. UP.

 

I like how many people seem to agree that the Alpha's were very far from an inefficient legion. In fact, considering their cleverness, their tenacity, and their patience, they may have (if given sufficient time) been the most successful of all legions.

 

And I agree totally with Octavulg on his point where he mentions that besides the 'suspicious' Alpha Legion, the Imperium also had the stunningly IN-efficient World Eaters, counter-intuitive Word Bearers, and criminally insane Night Lords. Really, how can you even begin to compare the elegance of the Alpha Legion's tactical brilliance with the slavering, sycophantic, murderous members of Angron's, Lorgar's, and Curze's legions?

 

Maybe I just really like the pragmatic legions. But it seems that a legion that takes its time, does a little fieldwork on the enemy, and is able to fight creatively and independently just seems like it would be far more successful than "GGGRRRAAAHHHH There sits the infidel, CHARRRRRRRRGE!!!!"

 

Disclaimer: My favorite Legions are the Salamanders, the Alpha Legion, the White Scars, and the Thousand Sons, so maybe that colors my reply.

 

edit: Gree, Vulkan apparently was found, as he was able to ride that Rhino, the reeeaaallly old one, with his Salamanders as they laid siege to a castle of Word Bearers at some point during or after the Heresy.

[Gree]

Gree, Vulkan apparently was found, as he was able to ride that Rhino, the reeeaaallly old one, with his Salamanders as they laid siege to a castle of Word Bearers at some point during or after the Heresy.

 

I always got the impression that was pre-heresy, from reading Kyme's new novel.

[c-wrex]

I haven't read the new novel yet, but that bit of fluff I've seen in several places. Doesn't mean he didn't disappear eventually, as we know he did, but he obviously made it off Isstvan and continued his campaign to personally knock the balls off every single traitor and go blacksmith on their asses.

 

edit: Also, why would the Sallies attack the Word Bearers pre-heresy?

[Gree]

I haven't read the new novel yet, but that bit of fluff I've seen in several places. Doesn't mean he didn't disappear eventually, as we know he did, but he obviously made it off Isstvan and continued his campaign to personally knock the balls off every single traitor and go blacksmith on their asses.

 

How is it obvious? I don't see were Vulkan had to reappear acfter Istvaan.

 

 

edit: Also, why would the Sallies attack the Word Bearers pre-heresy?

 

Who says the Salamanders needed to be lead by Vulkan? For all we know Vulkan's sucessor could hage led them mid-heresy or post-heresy.

[c-wrex]

Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition, page 76:

"Nocturne's Hammer is the oldest Rhino in existence and belongs to the Salamanders Chapter. It is said that this august vehicle once carried the legendary Primarch Vulkan into battle at the Siege of Devlin's Fastness, sallying out through the gates of the Imperial fortress into the midst of the encircling Word Bearers. Nocturne's Hammer has seen over eight thousand years of action and now has a place of honor in the Salamander's reliquary."

 

It is obvious that he survived to lead this attack because the slaughter at Isstvan 3 (or was it 5? I can never remember which.) was perpetrated by four legions whose treachery had just been revealed (namely the Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and most importantly in this case, the Word Bearers). So for Vulkan to engage the Word Bearers in a second battle, from a fortification not mentioned in any literature regarding Isstvan 3/5, means he had to have made it off of that cursed planet.

 

Also, I didn't anywhere say he had to lead them. I'm also pretty certain his successor did did lead them when Vulkan wasn't around ;) . Who else would have led them?

[Gree]

Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition, page 76:

"Nocturne's Hammer is the oldest Rhino in existence and belongs to the Salamanders Chapter. It is said that this august vehicle once carried the legendary Primarch Vulkan into battle at the Siege of Devlin's Fastness, sallying out through the gates of the Imperial fortress into the midst of the encircling Word Bearers. Nocturne's Hammer has seen over eight thousand years of action and now has a place of honor in the Salamander's reliquary."

 

It is obvious that he survived to lead this attack because the slaughter at Isstvan 3 (or was it 5? I can never remember which.) was perpetrated by four legions whose treachery had just been revealed (namely the Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and most importantly in this case, the Word Bearers). So for Vulkan to engage the Word Bearers in a second battle, from a fortification not mentioned in any literature regarding Isstvan 3/5, means he had to have made it off of that cursed planet.

 

Also, I didn't anywhere say he had to lead them. I'm also pretty certain his successor did did lead them when Vulkan wasn't around ;) . Who else would have led them?

 

Key word. ''Said'' ;)

[c-wrex]

;)

[Gree]

;)

 

Yes, because in 40k there is no such things as contridictions or shrouded legends. ;)

 

Oh wait.

 

 

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

 

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

 

Frankly, I don't really take too much of what Mat Ward writes seriously. He also wrote that the Iron Hands have a chapter master as well.

[c-wrex]

"In the Grim Darkness of the far future there is only....umm...well, we're not sure actually."