Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[Gree]

"In the Grim Darkness of the far future there is only....umm...well, we're not sure actually."

 

GW: ''Yes, because we really are that lazy when it comes to canon''

[c-wrex]

I'd imagine after so many years it gets pretty tricky to keep track of everything they've written or planned to write.

[Gree]

I'd imagine after so many years it gets pretty tricky to keep track of everything they've written or planned to write.

 

That's not really much of an excuse considering that the Star Wars novel and comics are much bigger than 40k and even they have a much clearer canon policy. But that's starting to get off topic.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Oct-y, I don't even know what you are arguing so elaboratly anymore. That Guilliman shouldn't have presented the Codex? That he was really power hungry? That he was a jerk?

 

Well, like you said he was a jerk, but all the primarchs are jerks, except Sanguinius of course. It is part of the 'Politics of Mt. Olympus' that GW goes for with the Primarchs.

 

Was the codex a good idea? Yes. A large conglomeration of tactics and material to wage war is always appropriate.

 

Was the splitting of the legions a good idea? It doesn't matter because it wasn't his call to make, but it has worked out ok. Think about it, chapters are essentially quick reaction forces. A legion is an offensive conquering force, and now when space marines go a'conquering they do it in legion like elements from multiple chapters. The only thing that has truly changed is color scheme and now all the companies are identical.

 

Was Guilliman right? Hardly, but that doesn't changed the fact that his work was important. Things needed to get done and he did them in spite if criticism.

 

The AL incident is just poor writing, obviously he would know how to deal with guerilla warfare, he was a primarch. That whole scenario is just poorly done.

 

There is nothing wrong with writing the Codex. Think-tanks put into words are helpful. We do it here on B&C ~ so it must be right. ;)

 

But it should be a "this is what I reckon and why open letter" and not a "decree". That UM fans think this okay and that RG was pure right on the Codex, it's implementation and it's necessity is frustrating. They think RG is right, and share that view. I can't see how reading all the fluff with an open mind anyone can think RG is the best thing since sliced bread.

 

Chapters, good or bad, should not have been forced down the throats of those remaining loyal to the Emperor by a peer. Loyalist Legions would still work fine.

 

I guess this is a backlash to people who say RG was great and did not make a :lol: of himself. As a summary, we are generally saying RG was great in planets won, the Codex as a suggestions tome was fine AND that RG acted like a jerk often enough AND he forced his ideas onto others AND that he overstepped the mark in strong-arming RD with his Codex.

"They" are saying he is Mr Sunshine in all things and we are saying that is not plausible from the fluff.

If you don't challenge peoples presentations with the facts then it slowly becomes accepted as being true.

 

Give RG his praises when due. Don't turn him into Prince Charming with blue-tinted lenses.

 

 

* On a different note. Maybe more Primarchs dodged being a jerk;

 

I. Lion ~ I haven't read the BL books, but he stooped the Russ's level.

II. ?

III. Fulgrim ~ Supreme vanity and arrogance.

IV. Perturabo ~ allowed himself to be rail-roaded into Siege work. Slandered Dorn, betrayed the E due to bitterness.

V. Khan ~ I think he is clear from jerkitis.... ;)

VI. Leman Russ ~ betrayed Magnus because big brother Horus said Daddy Emperor said to kill him!!! What!? Jerk to the Lion. ;)

VII. Dorn ~ I don't now how he was a jerk besides it saying in IA:IW that he was arrogant and vain....? I am not saying he didn't, I am saying I can't remember at the moment.

VIII. Night Haunter ~ became a mass-murderer and had mental stability problems that "fated" him to Heresy.

IX. Sanguinius ~ Hallelujah! :lol:

X. Ferrus ~ how was he a jerk, besides being impetuous and rushing into Istvaan 5?

XI. ?

XII. Angron ~ oozed arrogance and conceit.

XIII. Roboute ~ ...... see previous pages.....

XIV. Mortarion ~ besides eventually betraying the Emperor, how was he a jerk?

XV. Magnus ~ lacked the conviction to tell the Emperor no and so lied about what he was to do and kept practising Sorcery.

XVI. Horus ~ became sulky about the enormousness of the Great Crusade and not having the Emperor confide in him about what he was doing on Terra (which I can understand but I think he should have messaged the Emperor and said "This is too much for me, what are you doing and why? and I need your help) ;)

XVII. Lorgar ~ the tear through which Chaos poured.

XVIII. Vulkan ~ I don't think he was a jerk.

XIX. Corax ~ liked poetry.... but I can't think of anything other than that.

XX. Alpharius ~ defied RG? What else?

[Octavulg]

Marshal2Crusaders:

 

Oct-y, I don't even know what you are arguing so elaboratly anymore. That Guilliman shouldn't have presented the Codex? That he was really power hungry? That he was a jerk?

 

That he was a jerk, beyond even the usual Primarch standards.

 

It started (this time) with me arguing that Dorn wasn't a failure. I explained at the same time that Guilliman gets more crap because, well, he's a much bigger jerk than Dorn. Legatus (among others) disagreed.

 

And so we are where we are.

 

Well, like you said he was a jerk, but all the primarchs are jerks, except Sanguinius of course. It is part of the 'Politics of Mt. Olympus' that GW goes for with the Primarchs.

 

Sanguinius is a jerk. A mutant on Baal, but the humans raised him anyway?

 

Jerk. :P

 

Vulkan's not. Jaghatai's never been presented as much of one. Corax seems to get along OK with people. Horus was fine.

 

The AL incident is just poor writing, obviously he would know how to deal with guerilla warfare, he was a primarch. That whole scenario is just poorly done.

 

I'm not so sure, to be honest. Large parts of 40K assume stand-up battles. Hell, most of our modern generals don't know how to deal with guerilla warfare. The Great Crusade emphasized quick conquest - garrison forces could deal with guerillas etc. It would not entirely surprise me if Guilliman never engaged any guerillas (though the Ultramarines might have).

 

* * *

 

Gree:

Why does he need such a line? It's pretty obvious what his actions implied. Guilliman went with his duty as a Primarch, not as a family member. He is not suposed to play therapist to Dorn. He controled his emotions and buckled down to get the job done. In fact, were does it say he did not try to tell Dorn to calm down? Seems to be the text is vauge enough for it.

 

See, I'd buy that, if it weren't for the fact that everywhere else we see him, Guilliman takes every opportunity to tell other people what to do. He writes a massive book on how Space Marines should fight, and refuses to accomodate alternate perspectives on the matter. He's more than a little megalomaniacal.

 

Furthermore, you're overlooking that Guilliman, when he takes these duties upon himself, is Dorn's subordinate. Furthermore, there's Vulkan, Russ, Jonson (who was still alive, surprisingly), Khan and Corax. None of whom he has any more authority then, and many of whom could argue for more (Jonson's head of the first legion and likely has more troops, at least on paper, at this point (he certainly has a LOT) - Khan was at the Siege of Terra). If he did assume any authority, it should be with their acceptance and consultation, and it should be on a provisional basis until they demonstrate that Dorn most certainly is not coming back. Because that's how you do things when you're not after someone's job.

 

Guilliman stepping forward to valiantly assume the duties he did looks fine until you remember that not only are there other candidates, there's already someone holding this job, and Guilliman never does seem to get around to mentioning to Dorn that he had to either come back right now or, dammit, Guilliman was going to take charge. It just comes across as really, really underhanded.

 

His personal relationships should be completely inrevelant in the task of rebuilding the Imperium. Guilliman has a greater duty to helping an entire galatic empire than playing nursemaid to Dorn.

 

Except that's the thing - Guilliman has no such duty. He has a duty to obey the orders of his commander, and a duty (IMO) to his brother. To me, both those duties require he try and get his commander to do the job before taking it upon himself to do so.

 

I'm not even saying he has to try very hard. I'm just saying he should try.

[Gree]

Gree:

Why does he need such a line? It's pretty obvious what his actions implied. Guilliman went with his duty as a Primarch, not as a family member. He is not suposed to play therapist to Dorn. He controled his emotions and buckled down to get the job done. In fact, were does it say he did not try to tell Dorn to calm down? Seems to be the text is vauge enough for it.

 

See, I'd buy that, if it weren't for the fact that everywhere else we see him, Guilliman takes every opportunity to tell other people what to do. He writes a massive book on how Space Marines should fight, and refuses to accomodate alternate perspectives on the matter. He's more than a little megalomaniacal.

 

Actually he included Pertrabo's seige methods in the codex and it's implied elsewhere that he took wisdom from his brother primarchs and other Imperial sources.

 

Furthermore, you're overlooking that Guilliman, when he takes these duties upon himself, is Dorn's subordinate.

 

But that put's things into perspective if your boss suddenly ran off.

 

None of whom he has any more authority then, and many of whom could argue for more (Jonson's head of the first legion and likely has more troops, at least on paper, at this point (he certainly has a LOT) -

 

Actually Guilliman had the bigger legion. See my quote on providing over half the marines in the field.

 

If he did assume any authority, it should be with their acceptance and consultation, and it should be on a provisional basis until they demonstrate that Dorn most certainly is not coming back. Because that's how you do things when you're not after someone's job.

 

Why does he need their consulation? As I recall none of them seemed to be willing to rebuild much, just go after the traitors. Out of all of them Guilliman was the only one who seemed to be intrested in the tedious task of rebuilding. In fact I don't recall much about the other primarchs reacting to Guilliman rise in power at all. This could mean they either approved or just did not plain care.

 

Guilliman stepping forward to valiantly assume the duties he did looks fine until you remember that not only are there other candidates,

 

Not really. I can't imagine Russ or the Khan being suited to paperwork. Corax was wrapped up in his own emo experiments. Vulkan, depending on what source you read was not even present Post-Heresy. The Lion was wrapped up with Luther and Caliban. Sang was dead, so was Ferrus. Dorn went off on his vengance quest. Did I miss anybody?

 

and Guilliman never does seem to get around to mentioning to Dorn that he had to either come back right now or, dammit, Guilliman was going to take charge. It just comes across as really, really underhanded.

 

Hard to do when Dorn was ''missing from the highest councils'' this implies he was not really in contact with his brothers very much. It may come across as underhanded until you consider the fact that Dorn was seemed to be absent from any kind of cooperation or communication.

 

Except that's the thing - Guilliman has no such duty.

 

Yes he does. He serves the Imperium, if he allows the Imperium to slide into ruin in order to pass some red tape from a brother who has just went off the rader for his own vengance quest while the Imperium reeled from the Heresy then he is not furfiling his duty.

 

He has a duty to obey the orders of his commander, and a duty (IMO) to his brother. To me, both those duties require he try and get his commander to do the job before taking it upon himself to do so.

 

I'm not even saying he has to try very hard. I'm just saying he should try.

 

Who says he did not? There is no mention of Guilliman not making the attempt. In fact if Guilliman was the one who intiated the ''highest councils'' then in all likelyhood he did try to contact Dorn, but Dorn missed out or ignored it because of his vengance.

 

In fact, you would have a point if Dorn actually issued orders to Guilliman instead of going off on his own and letting Guilliman clean up the mess. Not to mention Guilliman should not have anything other than a strictly professional relationsip with Dorn when it comes to military or political matters. Any bonds of blood could just get in the way.

[Octavulg]

Actually he included Pertrabo's seige methods in the codex and it's implied elsewhere that he took wisdom from his brother primarchs and other Imperial sources.

 

You'll note that we don't know who wrote it. The actual quote, IIRC, says that a part of the Codex referring to sieges looks a lot like something Perturabo wrote. It's not actually attributed. In short, Guilliman found everything he agreed with, stuck it in a book with his name on it, and ignored the rest (like the methods of Alpharius, for example).

 

But that put's things into perspective if your boss suddenly ran off.

 

Yup. In which case my duty is to do his job to the best of my ability while trying to either find him or agree with his other immediate subordinates what the hell we should do.

 

Actually Guilliman had the bigger legion. See my quote on providing over half the marines in the field.

 

*Sigh*

 

Guilliman's troops grew to provide over half the marines in the field during the Scouring. Jonson disappeared very shortly after the end of the Heresy. He made it to Terra, then went home and got a sword stuck in him. So at that brief point in time, it is not impossible that Jonson might have had a fairly healthy number of troops - his legion had done less fighting on the way back, as I recall (and certainly less fierce fighting than the Ultramarines), while the Ultramarines had engaged both the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion. It's not inconceivable that the Dark Angels would have had some fairly healthy numbers at that point - possibly enough to be comparable to the Ultramarines. Even after the planet blows up underneath them, there are still enough Dark Angels left to form four or five chapters at the Second Founding, so it would seem they were pretty numerous. Especially when you consider they lost their home world, and presumably had to set up shop all over again on Plains World. So with a vastly curtailed recruitment rate, presumably massive casualties from having most of the legion on a planet that broke to pieces and was sucked into the warp, and presumably participating in the fighting of the Scouring, there are still enough Dark Angels to form almost 25% as many chapters as the massive Ultramarines at the Second Founding. That suggests there were a hell of a lot to start with - maybe not as many as the Ultramarines, but close.

 

Why does he need their consulation? As I recall none of them seemed to be willing to rebuild much, just go after the traitors. Out of all of them Guilliman was the only one who seemed to be intrested in the tedious task of rebuilding. In fact I don't recall much about the other primarchs reacting to Guilliman rise in power at all. This could mean they either approved or just did not plain care.

 

Nothing is mentioned of it. You'll note that often, where a few simple words could clear this up and make Guilliman look a lot less power-hungry, there is nothing.

 

Not really. I can't imagine Russ or the Khan being suited to paperwork.

 

Delegation is a marvelous thing. I doubt Guilliman filled out many forms.

 

Russ might not be temperamentally inclined toward such things, but Jaghatai's conquests on his homeworld were pretty impressive. I think he could manage.

 

Corax was wrapped up in his own emo experiments. Vulkan, depending on what source you read was not even present Post-Heresy.

 

Where did you get this "disappeared at Istvaan" stuff from? Because I've never seen this magical source, and I've read several sources that do have him doing things post-heresy (he's one of the ones who objects to splitting the legions almost every time it's mentioned).

 

The Lion was wrapped up with Luther and Caliban.

 

Not initially. When this stuff should presumably have been hammered out. Pretty much every loyal Primarch pops up at Terra shortly after Horus leaves or is already there.

 

Hard to do when Dorn was ''missing from the highest councils'' this implies he was not really in contact with his brothers very much.

 

No it doesn't. It says he wasn't participating in the high-level governing councils of the Imperium. I doubt those things are held via teleconference. The highest councils of the Imperium presumably did not include all the Primarchs, or the whole legion-splitting thing would not come as such a surprise. Furthermore, I think it's mentioned that a lot of them were out leading their legions.

 

It may come across as underhanded until you consider the fact that Dorn was seemed to be absent from any kind of cooperation or communication.

 

The Ultramarines and Dorn fight together during the heresy - rooting out some Iron Warrior fortresses or some crap (no, NOT the Iron Cage). They clearly could find him.

 

Furthermore, where does it say he was incommunicado?

 

Yes he does. He serves the Imperium, if he allows the Imperium to slide into ruin in order to pass some red tape from a brother who has just went off the rader for his own vengance quest while the Imperium reeled from the Heresy then he is not furfiling his duty.

 

Uh...I never said don't do anything. I said try and get Dorn to come back and do his damn job while you do stuff.

 

In fact, you would have a point if Dorn actually issued orders to Guilliman instead of going off on his own and letting Guilliman clean up the mess. Not to mention Guilliman should not have anything other than a strictly professional relationsip with Dorn when it comes to military or political matters. Any bonds of blood could just get in the way.

 

Dude, the military hierarchy of the Imperium at the time consisted of the Emperor, then his twenty sons. That's not professional, no matter how you slice it. Trying to pretend it was is ridiculous. It was a soap opera, and a badly co-ordinated one at that.

 

And, as I have repeatedly said, it is not Guilliman's decision to make. He "takes it upon himself". That's wrong. He's Dorn's junior, and there are four other Primarchs alive and kicking at the time. There are the High Lords of Terra. He has both superiors to whom he can appeal, and other officers whom he can consult with to decide what should be done and who should do it. He need not take anything upon himself, nor should he do so, especially since he is described elsewhere as being a firm proponent of hierarchy and structure.

 

The only explanation for why such a man would do what he did is the arrogant belief that he knew better than everyone else what should be done. And looking at other portrayals of his character, that is completely plausible.

 

And your interpretation is pretty much exactly what he used to justify it to himself.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Marshal Wilhem

On Russ being a jerk:

He really was a jerk, but i think your logic could use a bit more fleshing out.

Betraying Magnus is a poor reason, as from Russ's p.o.v. (and that of the emperor), magnus had already bretrayed his brotherhood. when you look at the society that Russ was raised from, your word was what made you who you were.

 

magnus betrayal of his promise to the emperor (first his promise not to delve in sorecy, then his promise to shut down the practices of prospero) removed any brotherhood between them. he became a oath-breaker.

 

and the lion thing...yea. but the lion needed that punch. ;)

 

WLK

[jb85]

You'll note that we don't know who wrote it. The actual quote, IIRC, says that a part of the Codex referring to sieges looks a lot like something Perturabo wrote. It's not actually attributed. In short, Guilliman found everything he agreed with, stuck it in a book with his name on it, and ignored the rest (like the methods of Alpharius, for example).

 

The Imperial Fist IA is fairly clear on Perturabo’s inclusion in the Codex. He probably wasn’t directly credited for the work given that he is a traitor. It isn’t unreasonable to assume that elements were taken from other Primarchs work. Splitting the legions into smaller independent chapters, is in part, a nod to the decentralised command structure favoured by Alpharius.

 

Perturabo was a master of fortification whose writings had been retained by Guilliman in his Codex.

 

In addition the Codex Astartes IA describes the Codex being added to by many others since it was initially drafted, so it is widely known and acknowledged that it is not solely Guilliman’s work.

 

These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history.

 

*Sigh*

Guilliman's troops grew to provide over half the marines in the field during the Scouring. Jonson disappeared very shortly after the end of the Heresy. He made it to Terra, then went home and got a sword stuck in him. So at that brief point in time, it is not impossible that Jonson might have had a fairly healthy number of troops - his legion had done less fighting on the way back, as I recall (and certainly less fierce fighting than the Ultramarines), while the Ultramarines had engaged both the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion. It's not inconceivable that the Dark Angels would have had some fairly healthy numbers at that point - possibly enough to be comparable to the Ultramarines. Even after the planet blows up underneath them, there are still enough Dark Angels left to form four or five chapters at the Second Founding, so it would seem they were pretty numerous. Especially when you consider they lost their home world, and presumably had to set up shop all over again on Plains World. So with a vastly curtailed recruitment rate, presumably massive casualties from having most of the legion on a planet that broke to pieces and was sucked into the warp, and presumably participating in the fighting of the Scouring, there are still enough Dark Angels to form almost 25% as many chapters as the massive Ultramarines at the Second Founding. That suggests there were a hell of a lot to start with - maybe not as many as the Ultramarines, but close.

 

The Ultramarines have always been described as the largest legion in existance, pre and post heresy. Both the HH novels and Ultramarines IA make reference to it. Even being generous and assuming that the DA lost two thirds of their number at Caliban, that would still put them at approximately half the strength of the Ultramarines. These are very fuzzy estimates at best, but various background materials have the Ultramarines as the largest legion regardless and we have (IIRC) no timescale from the end of the Siege of Terra to the Caliban incident (other than it was before the Codex was set down). In addition Jonson being head of the first legion provides him with no additional authority or title.

 

Upon its completion, those Ultramarines who had remained behind to oversee its construction began recruiting from Macragge and the surrounding systems. The training academies provided many fine candidates for the Legion and soon the Ultramarines received the first influx of warriors born and bred on Macragge. The surrounding systems also provided warriors for the Legion and, before long, the Ultramarines were the largest Legion in existence .

 

Nothing is mentioned of it. You'll note that often, where a few simple words could clear this up and make Guilliman look a lot less power-hungry, there is nothing.

 

We have nine loyalist legions available after the Siege of Terra. The Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Dark Angels and Blood Angels had all been left mauled or leaderless in the aftermath of the Heresy. So you have Dorn, Russ, Khan and Guilliman left to take up the taks of reorganising the Imperium. Dorn led his legion against the Traitors from the front, willingly leaving the role of shaping the new Imperium to Guilliman. That leaves Russ and the Khan, fine strategists and tacticians, but why give such a task to one of them when you have one of the galaxy’s leading administrative and logistical experts, who would be infinitely more suited to the task.

 

While the Ultramarines maintained order within the Imperium, the Imperial Fists hunted down the traitors, levelling fortress after fortress. Dorn led them, dressed in the black of mourning, his customary mercy set aside until the guilty were punished. While others shaped the new Imperium, Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice.

 

Delegation is a marvelous thing. I doubt Guilliman filled out many forms.

 

On the contrary, it would seem that there is quite an administrative burden on Guilliman, per the Codex Astartes IA.

 

One of their most important accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium's armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarine Legion of Space Marines, Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the Fleet and the Space Marines.

 

Where did you get this "disappeared at Istvaan" stuff from? Because I've never seen this magical source, and I've read several sources that do have him doing things post-heresy (he's one of the ones who objects to splitting the legions almost every time it's mentioned).

 

There is some degree of confusion over this one. As you have mentioned Vulkan is named as an opponent to splitting the legion. However the HH Novel Fulgrim and the HH Collected Vision Book both describe Vulkan as being MIA, presumed dead, in the aftermath of the dropsite massacre.

 

Not initially. When this stuff should presumably have been hammered out. Pretty much every loyal Primarch pops up at Terra shortly after Horus leaves or is already there.

 

The reorganisation of the Imperium did not take place in the immediate aftermath of the Siege of Terra.

 

No it doesn't. It says he wasn't participating in the high-level governing councils of the Imperium. I doubt those things are held via teleconference. The highest councils of the Imperium presumably did not include all the Primarchs, or the whole legion-splitting thing would not come as such a surprise. Furthermore, I think it's mentioned that a lot of them were out leading their legions.

 

As mentioned above he led from the front while others undertook the task of reorganising the Imperium. Other Primarchs led from the front, however Dorn was still Commander of all Imperial forces. Therefore his place should have been to oversee the Imperium and begin the task of reorganisation rather than leading attacks on traitor forces from the front. He may not have been out of contact, but a position on the front line is not conducive to completion of these tasks. Understandable given what Dorn had been through during the Siege of Terra to be fair. It is important to note that Dorn did not appear to object to the role Guilliman was playing at this point.

 

And, as I have repeatedly said, it is not Guilliman's decision to make. He "takes it upon himself". That's wrong. He's Dorn's junior, and there are four other Primarchs alive and kicking at the time. There are the High Lords of Terra. He has both superiors to whom he can appeal, and other officers whom he can consult with to decide what should be done and who should do it. He need not take anything upon himself, nor should he do so, especially since he is described elsewhere as being a firm proponent of hierarchy and structure.

 

Guilliman becomes a High Lord of Terra in the aftermath of the Heresy, taking the title of Lord Commander of the Imperium. The High Lords of Terra replaced the previous governing body, the Council of Terra. As ruling body of the Imperium, the High Lords presumably had the authority to revoke Dorn’s status as Commander of all Imperial forces and replace him with Guilliman. In addition the following quote infers that Guilliman had some authority over Dorn.

 

Whatever the cause, Rogal Dorn was absent from the highest councils until he was summoned back to Terra when Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines presented his Codex Astartes as the future of the Space Marines.

 

The only explanation for why such a man would do what he did is the arrogant belief that he knew better than everyone else what should be done. And looking at other portrayals of his character, that is completely plausible.

 

In comparison to Dorn who is described as vain and cannot see why the Imperial Fists are no longer trusted as they once were. Guilliman may have been arrogant but those who oppose his move to split the legions had questionable grounding IMO. Russ and Vulkan are both described as refusing to split their forces during the Crusade in the IW IA and Dorn’s stance is implied to be an emotional one. I can’t blame Guilliman for forcing his reforms through, given that the above three Primarchs didn’t exactly put forward a compelling case as to why he was wrong.

 

Where the likes of Russ, Vulkan and Magnus refused to Split their forces, Perturabo obeyed his orders with increasing bitterness..

 

Regardless everybody eventually fell in line with the spirit of the reforms (even Russ split his legion). And it is worth noting that Dorn and the Fists were among the greatest champions of the Codex after the reforms whilst the relationship between Dorn and Guilliman remained strong.

 

When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines.

 

On Macragge, home of the Ultramarines, Dorn's statue is one of the four Primarchs that stand alongside Guilliman's in their Hall of Heroes.

[Legatus]

Marshal_Wilhelm:

 

This is exactly how it reads. Guilliman says "Hey AO what do you reckon about my way of fighting? ~ maybe you should fight like that?" (which is successful, let's not be mean here) and AO says "No, I think not". RG is cut and then slanders AO about his lack of ability and his lack of future greatness.

How can that been seen as anything but RG belligerence, arrogance and vanity?

This is how it reads to me:

 

- Guilliman was in the process of documenting the "correct" tactics and operation of Space Marine force and suggests that the Alpha Legion adopt this "Codex" behaviour.

 

- heated debate over tactics and ideology ensues

 

- It becomes apparent that Alpharius would not bow to experience and superiority

 

- Guilliman closes with pointing out the thousands of victories and battle honours his Legion had won with these tactics and operations and tells Alpharius that the Alpha Legion in it's current structure could never hope to achieve anything similar.

 

I can see such a conversation happen any time an experienced commander and a younger one meet and talk about their profession, and when the younger commander is not willing to listen then the experienced commander might at some point refer to his own achievements.

 

 

If RG was the number 1 planet taker, that means according his philosophy of dispensing his way of doing things, he should have lectured all the Primarchs. We don't see that. Why is that?

Maybe because the other primarchs approaches were not so drastically different than Alpharius's was. Guilliman did have a word with Horus about his rash approach, because he was perceiving it as a flaw (which it was). But he would probably not have suggested to Perturabo that he should strike more actively, as Perturabo's methods worked well for his style of Warfare.

 

 

But it is war ~ no holds barred. As soon as the Astartes had broken the back of a planet's main fighting force, the survivors would have fought as guerillas, it is a natural progression that we have seen in our wars here on Earth.

I think the Eldar could use such a method from the very beginning of any conflict.

That RG was undone by such methods shows that his ways were not THE ways of fighting.

Maybe it means the piece is badly written. :lol:

 

 

But it should be a "this is what I reckon and why open letter" and not a "decree". That UM fans think this okay and that RG was pure right on the Codex, it's implementation and it's necessity is frustrating. They think RG is right, and share that view. I can't see how reading all the fluff with an open mind anyone can think RG is the best thing since sliced bread.

Maybe it is because Guillimans actions and his Codex are usually described in most detail in Ultramarine-based sources, so it seems obvious that the writers indeed indend for it all to be a great achievements. Also, not all elements of the Codex were decrees, as I have tried to demonstrate via quotes specifically saying so. If that does not help I don't know what will.

 

 

I guess this is a backlash to people who say RG was great and did not make a censored.gif of himself. As a summary, we are generally saying RG was great in planets won, the Codex as a suggestions tome was fine AND that RG acted like a jerk often enough AND he forced his ideas onto others AND that he overstepped the mark in strong-arming RD with his Codex.

"They" are saying he is Mr Sunshine in all things and we are saying that is not plausible from the fluff.

If you don't challenge peoples presentations with the facts then it slowly becomes accepted as being true.

What I personally find frustrating is that the "facts" of the Guilliman nay sayers are often misinterpretations based in their personal dislike for the character. I can think of three instances, by three different individuals, in this thread alone where background passages were taken out of context or misinterpreted to construct a negative image of Guilliman.

 

One Poster (I believe it was octavulg) refered to a passage that allegedly described how "Guilliman took it upon himself to assume controll over all Imperial forces", when that passage actually merely refers to Guilliman taking it upon himself to deploy his own Legionall across the galaxy to keep the Imperium from breaking apart.

Another poster (I think it was you, Marshal_Wilhelm) cited a passage that describes that "the rules were laid down in the Codex Astartes" as proof that all elements in the Codex are rules, when actually that passage refered specifically to the rules for lmiitation of force size, which no one ever denied being enforced decree.

Then the BFG background was referenced as a further example of where there was protest from Primarchs against the Codex, but that text does not describe the Codex as it was presented, but instead the process of deciding what regulations to include into the Codex.

 

The last text is pretty much the opposite of what the poster wanted to highlight, and all by itself blows the whole "Guilliman wanted to force everyine to do it HIS way" out of the water, because it demonstrates that the regulations that actually exist in the Codex were discussed prior to it's presentation.

 

I mean, it is one thing to not like the character. It is another to misinterprete or spin the background to justify that dislike.

 

 

---

 

Octavulg:

 

And as I have repeatedly said, that's how the Codex works now. We don't know how it worked then, and the fact that the rest of the Codex seems to have been an order suggests that the adoption of the whole would be, too.

Point 1: The background does not suggest that this is how the Codex works "now" and that it worked different when first presented 10,000 years ago. New material was added, yes, but the application is still the same. The description in the Codex Space Marines is even written in past tense.

"the most lasting and contentious decree of the Codex Astartes was...", "Upon the Codex's implementation, each old Legion became...", "One of the key objectives of teh new Codex Astartes was...".

Only the last paragraph, dealing with the tactical doctrines (arguably the "meat" of the Codex) is written in present tense, probably because it does not refer to how Chapters were historically changed but to how they still operate to this day.

 

Point 2: I still don't know why you would assume that a book that is intended to be about all aspects of a topic that contains a number of rules concerning that topic would then naturally have to be all rules. Take the Bible for example, it contains the ten commandmends, but most of the bible are parables and allegories. Heck, take a Warhammer 40K Codex. There are a lot of rules in it, but it usually also includes descriptions of background, suggested tactics and examples of painted models.

Just like that, the Codex Astartes was intended to include all aspects of Space Marines, so it would include a number of rules conerning the Marines' role among the Imperial armed forces and what they are permitted and not permitted to have or do. But it also includes treatises and guidelines for a lot of aspects.

 

Point 3: That particular background description again specifically points out that there was protest against the breaking up of the Legtions, but it never mentions any protest against the other elements of the Codex that are also described, not even agaonst the other decree that is mentioned. So there was no protest because either the other Primarchs were ok with being required to reorganise their companies and units according to the Codex, or they were not being required to do so at all.

 

 

And on top of that, there's this bit: "...the most lasting and contentious decree...", in reference to the breakup into chapters, which raises the question of whether these other parts, as I have suggested repeatedly, were decrees and have since declined in importance for one of any number of reasons - including that people initially refused to obey them.

There were other decrees. The controlled creation and training of Marines is one of them that is specifically mentioned. I assume there are some more concerning fleet assets or inducted Imperial Guard forces. It would probaly define the Marines role among the Imperial Armed forces as well, their duties and liberties.

 

 

It's been ten thousand years and the original proposal nearly sparked a civil war. I suspect compromise may have been reached.

If we are to believe the fluff, then the most outspoken critic of the breaking up aspect finally relented, and Russ and Vulkan are not mentioned any further other than that they agreed with Dorns initial protest. At that point there probably was no need for a compromise anymore, and no reason why the Codex Astartes should not have been implemented exactly as was intended.

 

 

I suggest you reread the description of the battle.

 

He took an extra week to prepare for his assault on the capital, which gave the enemy time to assemble more troops and then dig in. The attack that followed was highly focused - "huge sections of the defensive line untouched" is the phrase used. And when it's all done, one week after the first attack (two weeks total), the enemy have taken 90% casualties and, I suspect, been well and truly defeated.

 

The number of enemy forces did not change - they would still have needed killing. The battles that took place were more focused than otherwise, which presumably would limit damage to both infrastructure and population. Frankly, I think the strategy pursued likely worked better than the alternative.

Killing 90% of the enemy forces is not the only way to win a war. It had been asked why Alpharius had not immediately seized the capital, and his conduct had been censured by many quarters, so it seems apparent that the general belief was that the war could have been won much more efficiently. And that was not just Guilliman.

Now, this particular campaign was merely meant to show off his Legion's prowess, but while Horus congratulated him for overcoming such an opposition (no ulterior motive there, I' sure -_- ), the rest was seemingly not impressed.

 

 

I think the Ultramarines did not win because they had never before faced a foe that used guerilla tactics. Or jammed communications. Or used spies.

Then their experience of warfare has been incredibly limited, and Guilliman has no business telling anyone how to fight anything.

 

They were completely dumbfounded by the tactics the Alpha Legion employed (so appearently Guilliman was the only one arguing tactics in their debate, while Alpharius just went "lalalalala").

I'm trying to decide whether this is a sarcastic shot at Guilliman or a shot at Alpharius.

 

Personally, I think it's some persuasive evidence that Alpharius was listening and Guilliman wasn't. tongue.gif

 

He did not anticipate that any foe could employ such insideous tactics and did not have the courtesy to line up just as they did.

You're really not presenting your Primarch in a favorable light here, you realize.

I probably should have included some smilies. All of my above remarks were meant ironically.

 

 

Again, you are trying to draw distinctions between some parts of the Codex and others. The Codex is a whole.

But there are distinctions. The different elements of the Codex have even been devised with completely different intentions and under different circumstances.

 

The whole tactics/organisation part of the Codex is what Guilliman had originally been working for and put a lot of effort in. He included tactics by other Primarchs in there as well, such as the siege tactics by Perturabo, and he had suggested these tactics to Alpharius. These elements of the Codex are not only impossible to enforce, it would not even be reasonable to try. What would be the penalty for not denoting tactical squads in the way the Codex "suggest" (= requires?)? What would be the penalty for a commander that decided to do an orbital assault instead of infiltration as the Codex suggests?

 

Then there are the decrees. These were not originally envisioned by Guilliman, they were direct answers to the issues that had become apparent in the heresy. Some of these decrees were decided generally and for other institutions as well (separation of Navy, Army and Astartes) but were included in the Codex Astartes because it was supposed to include everything that concerned Space Marines. And as the BFG text suggests, these decrees were not just decided by Guilliman alone, but were discussed in a council. When the Codex Astartes was presented, there was protest against one particular of these decrees.

 

These two parts are entirely different. They were devised under different circumstances and with different intentions. One is a set of laws that were deemed necessary to be instated after the events of the heresy, one is a substantial treatise on tactics, organisation, historical battles, heraldry and iconography.

 

 

Maybe. More likely, I think it's just Guilliman being petty.

 

Also, keep in mind - none of the other legions fight using the Codex at this point. Yet the Alphas are not noted as being particularly less efficient than any of the others.

At least the Alpha Legion is described as operating more drastically different from the other Legions. The other Legions would probably operate somewhat similar to the Ultramarines, with only minor differences in company structure and certain preferred approaches.

 

 

To me, it looks a lot like Guilliman trying to bully a younger, less experienced brother into doing things his way, with the aid of his superior experience and knowledge.

He was criticising Horus as well, so he did not just "push down" at the guys below.

 

 

In a war machine that tolerated the World Eaters, the Word Bearers and the Night Lords for longer than the Alpha Legion, I find it implausible that the Alpha Legion would draw particular suspicion.

IIRC all of them were criticised for their individual actions.

 

 

It started (this time) with me arguing that Dorn wasn't a failure. I explained at the same time that Guilliman gets more crap because, well, he's a much bigger jerk than Dorn.

And that assertion is usually based heavily on the argument that "Guilliman wanted everyone to do it HIS way", which I am arguing is a misinterpretation of the background.

 

It is not true in terms of the Codex Astartes implementation after the heresy. You could cite the Alpharius incident, but I would not see that as too much out of the ordinary. You take one person with a lot of combat experience and an active interest in documenting the best methods, and you take a person with few experience and a very unconventional method. You will allways get the experienced one suggesting his methods to the inexperienced one. It would reflect bad on teh experienced one if he didn't. Refering to ones own record and predicting sub-par results as a final appeal when the inexperienced one does not want any of it seems reasonable enogh as well.

 

 

I'm not so sure, to be honest. Large parts of 40K assume stand-up battles. Hell, most of our modern generals don't know how to deal with guerilla warfare. The Great Crusade emphasized quick conquest - garrison forces could deal with guerillas etc. It would not entirely surprise me if Guilliman never engaged any guerillas (though the Ultramarines might have).

I seriously doubt that the Ultramarines had never fought sneaky guerilla style enemies. There are so many xeno species that would employ exactly such tactics. I assume the Ultramarines would have fought at least some Eldar at some point, probably some Hrud as well. In the Index Astartes Alpha Legion, they apparently had never experienced anything like that. I have the suspicion that it was because the author wanted to make a certain point. I mean, Guillimans whole doctrine can pretty much be summed up by one key element: being prepared. Yet in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion, the Ultramarines don't know what's happening or how to deal with the situation.

 

The Index Astartes Imperial Fists describes the "Codex" doctrine to favour flexibility and initiative, yet in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion the Codex's "rigid structure" is described as anathema to Alpharius's belief in initiative and adaptability. A bit odd, no?

 

Then there is the fact that Ultramarine history is exceptionally well documented (the Index Astartes Ultramarines mentions for example how Guillimans first encounter with the Emperor is described in great "and unnecessary" detail. Certainly the Ultramarines would have records of Guillimans battle against Alpharius, but in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion the given account is described as being questioned by different Inquisitors and representatives of the Ultramarines.

 

There are certain elements of the Index Astartes Alpha Legion that don't add up. Perhaps that was intentional, as the AL is supposed to be all about sowing false information? ;)

 

 

See, I'd buy that, if it weren't for the fact that everywhere else we see him, Guilliman takes every opportunity to tell other people what to do. He writes a massive book on how Space Marines should fight, and refuses to accomodate alternate perspectives on the matter.

Like Perturabo's siege tactics. No, wait... :lol:

 

 

Furthermore, you're overlooking that Guilliman, when he takes these duties upon himself, is Dorn's subordinate.

I unfortunately don't have the "collected visions" artbook. I would love to check that text out myself. It is not described in any GW sources, as far as I know.

 

 

Guilliman stepping forward to valiantly assume the duties he did looks fine until you remember that not only are there other candidates, there's already someone holding this job, and Guilliman never does seem to get around to mentioning to Dorn that he had to either come back right now or, dammit, Guilliman was going to take charge. It just comes across as really, really underhanded.

I thought it usually came across as a great move, given that it is usually described as one of Guillimans biggest achievements in the Codex Ultramarines and similar sources. He stepped up and kept the Imperium safe. Then he effectively reorganised the armed forces. He was such a great guy. The sources usually fail to mention how he was grabbing that power from others just so he could make them all reorganise their companies and units according to his ideas. :lol:

 

 

You'll note that we don't know who wrote it. The actual quote, IIRC, says that a part of the Codex referring to sieges looks a lot like something Perturabo wrote. It's not actually attributed. In short, Guilliman found everything he agreed with, stuck it in a book with his name on it, and ignored the rest (like the methods of Alpharius, for example).

3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 32

"The Iron Warriors' Primarch, Perturabo, excelled in siege and trench warfare above all else and his treatise on fortifications and their destruction formed the basis of several sections of the Tactica Imperium."

 

Index Astartes Imperial Fists, "The Iron Cage"

"Perturabo was a master of fortification whose writings had been retained by Guilliman in his Codex."

 

The background does not specifically say, but since it is mentioned in a few places I would just assume that the tactics are attributed to Perturabo or the Iron Warriors. Unless there were concerns about mentioning his name in a publication.

The Codex Astartes is described as having accounts of whole battles, so I assume there will be a lot of accounts of how the different Primarchs approached a battle. There might be descriptions of how Corax quickly deploys and redeploys his forces, or how the Blood Angels or Space Wolves perform an assault.

 

 

Guilliman's troops grew to provide over half the marines in the field during the Scouring. Jonson disappeared very shortly after the end of the Heresy. He made it to Terra, then went home and got a sword stuck in him. So at that brief point in time, it is not impossible that Jonson might have had a fairly healthy number of troops - his legion had done less fighting on the way back, as I recall (and certainly less fierce fighting than the Ultramarines), while the Ultramarines had engaged both the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion. It's not inconceivable that the Dark Angels would have had some fairly healthy numbers at that point - possibly enough to be comparable to the Ultramarines. Even after the planet blows up underneath them, there are still enough Dark Angels left to form four or five chapters at the Second Founding, so it would seem they were pretty numerous. Especially when you consider they lost their home world, and presumably had to set up shop all over again on Plains World. So with a vastly curtailed recruitment rate, presumably massive casualties from having most of the legion on a planet that broke to pieces and was sucked into the warp, and presumably participating in the fighting of the Scouring, there are still enough Dark Angels to form almost 25% as many chapters as the massive Ultramarines at the Second Founding. That suggests there were a hell of a lot to start with - maybe not as many as the Ultramarines, but close.

The Dark Angels were divided into 4 Chapters, the Ultramarines into 24.

 

The horus heresy sources state that the average sitze for a Chapter was 100k, while the Ultramarines had 250k. I prefer the 10k numbers, so for this purpose let's assume that the 24k the Ultramarines had at the time of the second founding were about standard size for them. IIRC the Ultramarines had lost 1/3 of their forces in the Word Bearers attack on Calth, so they would have raced to Earth with a strength of about 16,000. That would still have been more than what the Dark Angels probably had. I assume the casualties both Legions suffered in minor engagements were similar, so at the point where the heresy ended the Ultramarines Legion would probably still have had about twice the size of the Dark Angels Legion.

 

 

Nothing is mentioned of it. You'll note that often, where a few simple words could clear this up and make Guilliman look a lot less power-hungry, there is nothing.

At least according to the BFG source the decrees about the new military limitations that were to be put into the Codex were discussed beforehand.

 

 

You are blaming Guilliman for grabbing the power even though it should have been someone else, and then using that power to force everyone to adopt his Codex doctrines. The background never suggests anything of that sort. It is never described that Guilliman took power away from anyone else, or that all the Legions had to adopt the Codex battle doctrines. Instead, it is usually cited as praise for Guilliman that he did what he did, that he was there when the Imperium was in need, and that the Codex Astartes is a powerful tool that has served the Codex Chapter well for the past 10,000 years. You are taking all these elements, that are usually presented and intended as outstanding achievements and testament to greatness, and you twist them into something insidious. It is one thing if you don't like Guilliman because he was a boring person who kept strict principles and was not as "human" as some other Primarch may be described, but to insinuate him having selfish and ulterior motives for the actions he is most praised for has nothing to do with interpretation of background anymore.

 

 

In summary, I am mainly opposing these claims and think they are not backed by the background:

 

- Guilliman did not deserve to be in command after the heresy and unjustly assumed command!

--> I am not aware of any background that suggests that Guilliman was not the most reasonable choice for the job or that he took away power that someone else should have had. I do not know the source that describes that Dorn had overall command, but if he did, the background clearly describes that he was not deciding to exercise any such command after the heresy.

 

- Guilliman forced everyone to adopt "his way"!

--> I have tried to give examples that describe that only the power limiting elements and some more regulatory aspects of the Codex were laws, while the organisational and tactical doctrines were merely treatises and guidelines. And I have tried to point out that, at least according to a BFG source, the regulatory decrees were discussed before they were instated. What was enforced was not "his way" and the elements that were "his way" were not enforced. Not to mention that "his way" was based on the best all Primarchs had to offer.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Give RG his praises when due. Don't turn him into Prince Charming with blue-tinted lenses.

 

Quoted for truth. :rolleyes:

 

Same goes for Dorn though.

 

Sanguinius is a jerk. A mutant on Baal, but the humans raised him anyway?

 

Sanguinius comes across more as an ugly duckling to me. Should have been killed at birth, but winds up becoming one of the best (if not the best) Primarchs.

 

Guilliman stepping forward to valiantly assume the duties he did looks fine until you remember that not only are there other candidates, there's already someone holding this job, and Guilliman never does seem to get around to mentioning to Dorn that he had to either come back right now or, dammit, Guilliman was going to take charge. It just comes across as really, really underhanded.

 

True - it's worth mentioning at the point where Guilliman returns home, Dorn is the de jure regent (small 'r') of Terra.

 

But that put's things into perspective if your boss suddenly ran off.

 

If my boss fled the country, maybe I would end up filling in for him (at least temporarily till someone else is brought in or I'm promoted). If my boss left the country to go to a conference, I would not try to take his place. There's a difference between running off for no reason and running off to work. Dorn is still doing his duty - the later roles of the Primarchs did not include administration. It's what sparks the Heresy in the first place - the Primarchs are becoming purely military leaders, and the bureaucrats have been brought in to deal with the administration.

 

Dorn's not abandoned any of his duties. You could argue that he's abandoned one of his moral responsibilities, but he's not shirking his legal duty. He's a war leader, not a bureaucrat.

 

Why does he need their consulation?

 

Because the only person who doesn't is the Emperor (being sole ruler and all that). The Imperium is now a coalition regency - imposing your views is going to spark factional conflict.

 

Hard to do when Dorn was ''missing from the highest councils'' this implies he was not really in contact with his brothers very much. It may come across as underhanded until you consider the fact that Dorn was seemed to be absent from any kind of cooperation or communication.

 

Astropaths? Added to that, it's quite hard to mislay a Legion of Space Marines and their Primarch, even if the Legion has suffered losses in the Siege of Terra.

 

In fact, you would have a point if Dorn actually issued orders to Guilliman instead of going off on his own and letting Guilliman clean up the mess.

 

Talent for administration aside, why is Guilliman cleaning up the mess? That's the Council of Terra's job - it's why they replaced the War Council in the first place, so they could manage administration and leave the Primarchs to their war duties. Guilliman may have been the only Primarch who could have taken the administrative tasks upon himself, but that assumes only a Primarch is capable of managing it.

 

Where did you get this "disappeared at Istvaan" stuff from? Because I've never seen this magical source, and I've read several sources that do have him doing things post-heresy (he's one of the ones who objects to splitting the legions almost every time it's mentioned).

 

More accurately, it's not Vulkan who disappears at Isstvaan V, it's his story. We don't know what was going on until his story resurfaces with the presentation of the Codex.

 

The Imperial Fist IA is fairly clear on Perturabo’s inclusion in the Codex. He probably wasn’t directly credited for the work given that he is a traitor. It isn’t unreasonable to assume that elements were taken from other Primarchs work.

 

Roboute Guilliman's Codex Astartes:

 

Mark: 0

 

Please report to the chief examiner's office at 12:30pm to answer allegations of plagiarism. If no evidence of plagiarism is found, your work will be re-marked. Have a nice day. :P

 

That wasn't the most academic thing he could have done. Perturabo was a heretic, but he was also a good siege expert. Referencing him allows his battle record to back up your claim that this is the right way to conduct siege warfare.

 

These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history.

 

I find that hard to believe. So far, the Age of Strife has been portrayed as damaging to written records - although records date back till then, not much survived from before then. I can't imagine Guilliman sitting down with copies of Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, De Jomini, Mahan, Guderian, Tukhachevsky and all the others. Take a look at the bottleneck effect the introduction of the Christian Church had on classical philosophical works - some were deliberately preserved by the Church, some were discarded as useless, some were only preserved by one part of the Church (Plato and the Greek Orthodox Church). I imagine the Age of Strife would have had a similar effect on any type of written record.

 

That leaves Russ and the Khan, fine strategists and tacticians, but why give such a task to one of them when you have one of the galaxy’s leading administrative and logistical experts, who would be infinitely more suited to the task.

 

Remember, Guilliman was the leading administrative and logistical expert among the Primarchs. We don't know that he was the best or one of the best in the galaxy. If he was, then that poses the question "Why didn't the Emperor put him in charge of the Council of Terra?". That might have even prevented the Heresy.

 

The reorganisation of the Imperium did not take place in the immediate aftermath of the Siege of Terra.

 

The reorganisation of the Imperium is not a simple thing that can be done overnight. It happens right from the aftermath of the Siege of Terra to the presentation of the Codex.

 

Other Primarchs led from the front, however Dorn was still Commander of all Imperial forces. Therefore his place should have been to oversee the Imperium and begin the task of reorganisation rather than leading attacks on traitor forces from the front.

 

Why? Dorn is not a pre-Administratum Warmaster, like Horus was. He was a post-Administratum Warmaster (in effect, not in name). Responsibility for administration is not his, even though he's the one who'll have to deal with the consequences if it doesn't happen. It's one of the few places where he (or any Primarch) has no legal authority.

 

Guilliman becomes a High Lord of Terra in the aftermath of the Heresy, taking the title of Lord Commander of the Imperium. The High Lords of Terra replaced the previous governing body, the Council of Terra. As ruling body of the Imperium, the High Lords presumably had the authority to revoke Dorn’s status as Commander of all Imperial forces and replace him with Guilliman. In addition the following quote infers that Guilliman had some authority over Dorn.

 

Since they're a self-appointed body, that does come across as a palace coup. Might this be a source of the disapproval of Guilliman?

 

Dorn’s stance is implied to be an emotional one.

 

Dorn is suffering from Primarch-sized survivor guilt, not least because being a Primarch he could have saved the Emperor and defeated Horus (it's highly improbable, but in that state he's going to think it was much more likely than it really was). Now his brother is insinuating that he's disloyal and shouldn't wield power. You expect his response to be unemotional? I'm surprised they didn't end up brawling on the floor.

 

I think it's a mark of how much he got out of his system whilst hunting the traitors that he was able to back down at all.

 

Then the BFG background was referenced as a further example of where there was protest from Primarchs against the Codex, but that text does not describe the Codex as it was presented, but instead the process of deciding what regulations to include into the Codex.

 

Correction - it was presented to highlight that the division of the Legions was not the only issue at stake.

 

And as the BFG text suggests, these decrees were not just decided by Guilliman alone, but were discussed in a council. When the Codex Astartes was presented, there was protest against one particular of these decrees.

 

Does that work in connection with the piece of fluff that Dorn was absent from the highest councils until the Codex is presented?

 

Also, the same text is the proof that there was resistance to more than one of these decrees. That's why I cited it in the first place.

 

- Guilliman was in the process of documenting the "correct" tactics and operation of Space Marine force and suggests that the Alpha Legion adopt this "Codex" behaviour.

 

- heated debate over tactics and ideology ensues

 

- It becomes apparent that Alpharius would not bow to experience and superiority

 

- Guilliman closes with pointing out the thousands of victories and battle honours his Legion had won with these tactics and operations and tells Alpharius that the Alpha Legion in it's current structure could never hope to achieve anything similar.

 

I can see such a conversation happen any time an experienced commander and a younger one meet and talk about their profession, and when the younger commander is not willing to listen then the experienced commander might at some point refer to his own achievements.

 

That's an entirely correct interpretation - if Alpharius is trying to fight in the same way that Guilliman is. If Alpharius is simply taking a different path to the same objective, that doesn't make either him or Guilliman superior. It just makes them different. Guilliman's experience is only superior if Alpharius is trying to copy Guilliman.

 

Again, you are trying to draw distinctions between some parts of the Codex and others. The Codex is a whole.

But there are distinctions.

 

You should have cited the BFG text for that. ;) How can Corax object to one bit but agree with another if the Codex is presented as a whole? He'd be simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with it. That's why I cited that text in the first place - the Codex was not decided by a Yes/No vote.

[Legatus]

Also, the same text is the proof that there was resistance to more than one of these decrees. That's why I cited it in the first place.

You should have cited the BFG text for that. msn-wink.gif How can Corax object to one bit but agree with another if the Codex is presented as a whole? He'd be simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with it. That's why I cited that text in the first place - the Codex was not decided by a Yes/No vote.

You are misunderstanding the meaning of that passage. When Guilliman officially presented the Codex, there was protest against one particular of the decrees. What that passage from BFG describes is the process of deciding which decrees to include in the Codex.

 

"When Guilliman set about th elong and arduous task of preparing Codex Astartes, the role of space vessels amongst the Adeptus Astartes proved a particular sticking. For an Imperium still reeling from internecine Heresy that almost tore apart, the division of power was a vitally important consideration. Of the most extreme options on offer, it was ventured by some that the Space Marines should be denied any vessels at all, barring intra-system transports for movement between homeworlds and attendant moons. Corax, amongst others, protested strongly that in fact had the Space Marines been better equipped with fleets of their own his own Legion might not have been so horrendously decimated when trapped on Istvaan V by Horus and the newly revealed traitors."

 

So before the Codex was officially presented/instated, it was discussed in a council (not all made up by Guilliman himself) of how Space Marine forces should be regulated. When it came to deciding their fleet strength, it was proposed by some that Space Marines should have no fleet at all, which Corax protested. This is not an example of protest against "Guillimans Codex" as presented. Instead, it is an example of why it was not just "guilliman decree" at all that were then later protested against.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

So before the Codex was officially presented/instated, it was discussed in a council (not all made up by Guilliman himself) of how Space Marine forces should be regulated. When it came to deciding their fleet strength, it was proposed by some that Space Marines should have no fleet at all, which Corax protested. This is not an example of protest against "Guillimans Codex" as presented. Instead, it is an example of why it was not just "guilliman decree" at all that were then later protested against.

 

Corax (from your post I take it he was at the councils) was able to protest while the idea was still being discussed - he didn't have to wait until the Codex was finished before objecting to this being in it. Instead, he's able to head off plans to have this included. I can only assume that this was intended to be part of the Codex (with or without Guilliman's approval), otherwise Corax would not have had any need to object. If he and any other supporters had not objected, I assume this would have ended up in the Codex.

[jb85]

If my boss fled the country, maybe I would end up filling in for him (at least temporarily till someone else is brought in or I'm promoted). If my boss left the country to go to a conference, I would not try to take his place. There's a difference between running off for no reason and running off to work. Dorn is still doing his duty - the later roles of the Primarchs did not include administration. It's what sparks the Heresy in the first place - the Primarchs are becoming purely military leaders, and the bureaucrats have been brought in to deal with the administration.

 

Have to respectfully disagree here. A Primarch’s role may not have been administrative in nature, but the Warmaster’s was (Dorn’s rank in the immediate aftermath of the Siege) as demonstrated by the evolving role of Horus in the initial HH novels. Whether he wanted this task is moot point, the role of Supreme Commander of all Imperial military forces will carry administrative concerns with it.

 

Dorn's not abandoned any of his duties. You could argue that he's abandoned one of his moral responsibilities, but he's not shirking his legal duty. He's a war leader, not a bureaucrat.

 

Agreed, but in this case were does all the complaints come from. The IF IA states that he went after the Traitors, leading from the front, leaving others to the reorganisation of the Imperium. There doesn’t seem to be any point of contention here between Dorn and Guilliman. I suspect people assume there is one because of the later issues that arise.

 

Talent for administration aside, why is Guilliman cleaning up the mess? That's the Council of Terra's job - it's why they replaced the War Council in the first place, so they could manage administration and leave the Primarchs to their war duties. Guilliman may have been the only Primarch who could have taken the administrative tasks upon himself, but that assumes only a Primarch is capable of managing it.

 

The Council of Terra is replaced by the High Lords of Terra, of which Guilliman acts as the military representative. Therefore when he begins the reorganisation of the Imperium, it is reasonable to assume that he does so under the express approval and authority of the Imperium’s newly formed governing body.

 

Roboute Guilliman's Codex Astartes:

 

Mark: 0

 

Please report to the chief examiner's office at 12:30pm to answer allegations of plagiarism. If no evidence of plagiarism is found, your work will be re-marked. Have a nice day. :rolleyes:

 

That wasn't the most academic thing he could have done. Perturabo was a heretic, but he was also a good siege expert. Referencing him allows his battle record to back up your claim that this is the right way to conduct siege warfare.

 

It is supposition on my part to assume that Perturabo is not referenced in the Codex. I agree with your sentiment and in the real world I would agree with what you say. But this is the Imperium, it wouldn’t be PC to be seen to be using the work of a heretic, so it would be judged in that context.

 

I find that hard to believe. So far, the Age of Strife has been portrayed as damaging to written records - although records date back till then, not much survived from before then. I can't imagine Guilliman sitting down with copies of Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, De Jomini, Mahan, Guderian, Tukhachevsky and all the others. Take a look at the bottleneck effect the introduction of the Christian Church had on classical philosophical works - some were deliberately preserved by the Church, some were discarded as useless, some were only preserved by one part of the Church (Plato and the Greek Orthodox Church). I imagine the Age of Strife would have had a similar effect on any type of written record.

 

Yet the Vengeful Spirit has quite an extensive library on board. While the tests may not date back to the days of Sun Tzu, the Imperium of the 31st Millennium likely has a great deal of historical military texts available to it. At any rate the quote is more of a description of the Codex being a living document which has evolved and been added to in the ten millennium since the Hersey.

 

Since they're a self-appointed body, that does come across as a palace coup. Might this be a source of the disapproval of Guilliman?

 

There is no evidence that they are self-appointed. The Council of Terra still had authority in the aftermath of the Siege. The Council is made up of the Fabricator General (Kane), the Chief Custodian (Valdor), the Head of the Divisio Astra Teepathica, and the Leader of the Imperial Administration (Malcador). Granted Malcador is dead and the fate of Valdor is unknown after Prospero, however you would assume both had deputies in place. As a result there is nothing to suggest that the Council was not in a position to grant its authority to the High Lords of Terra.

 

And again the friction with Dorn came as a result of the break-up of the Legions, Guilliman’s position as a High Lord is never mentioned as a contentious point.

 

 

Dorn is suffering from Primarch-sized survivor guilt, not least because being a Primarch he could have saved the Emperor and defeated Horus (it's highly improbable, but in that state he's going to think it was much more likely than it really was). Now his brother is insinuating that he's disloyal and shouldn't wield power. You expect his response to be unemotional? I'm surprised they didn't end up brawling on the floor.

I think it's a mark of how much he got out of his system whilst hunting the traitors that he was able to back down at all.

 

Guilliman never insinuates that Dorn is disloyal (bear in mind that his own legion will be undergoing the same restructuring, so he would be calling himself disloyal), it is more the perception that humanity in general has of the Space Marines after the Heresy. This is something Dorn struggles to get to grips with. Guilliman’s re-forms are to limit the impact of further Heresy down the road and to increase the responsiveness and coverage of the Space Marines. And to be fair, given that half of the Primarchs turned, no ones loyalty is above question.

[Gree]

Actually he included Pertrabo's seige methods in the codex and it's implied elsewhere that he took wisdom from his brother primarchs and other Imperial sources.

 

You'll note that we don't know who wrote it. The actual quote, IIRC, says that a part of the Codex referring to sieges looks a lot like something Perturabo wrote. It's not actually attributed. In short, Guilliman found everything he agreed with, stuck it in a book with his name on it, and ignored the rest (like the methods of Alpharius, for example).

 

And that's a bad thing? If the Ultramarines and the rest of the codex chapters have been winning victories over the past 10,000 years with it clearly Guilliman is doing something right.

 

Plus it was attributed.

 

IA: Imperial Fists

 

Perturabo was a master of fortification whose writings had been retained by Guilliman in his Codex

 

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

Yup. In which case my duty is to do his job to the best of my ability while trying to either find him or agree with his other immediate subordinates what the hell we should do.

 

Which, as IA Imperial Fists Dorn could not be reached. Or, as shown talking with the Hight Lords, which Guilliman did.

 

*Sigh*

 

Guilliman's troops grew to provide over half the marines in the field during the Scouring. Jonson disappeared very shortly after the end of the Heresy. He made it to Terra, then went home and got a sword stuck in him. So at that brief point in time, it is not impossible that Jonson might have had a fairly healthy number of troops - his legion had done less fighting on the way back, as I recall (and certainly less fierce fighting than the Ultramarines), while the Ultramarines had engaged both the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion. It's not inconceivable that the Dark Angels would have had some fairly healthy numbers at that point - possibly enough to be comparable to the Ultramarines. Even after the planet blows up underneath them, there are still enough Dark Angels left to form four or five chapters at the Second Founding, so it would seem they were pretty numerous. Especially when you consider they lost their home world, and presumably had to set up shop all over again on Plains World. So with a vastly curtailed recruitment rate, presumably massive casualties from having most of the legion on a planet that broke to pieces and was sucked into the warp, and presumably participating in the fighting of the Scouring, there are still enough Dark Angels to form almost 25% as many chapters as the massive Ultramarines at the Second Founding. That suggests there were a hell of a lot to start with - maybe not as many as the Ultramarines, but close.

 

No, I'm sorry, you do not have a point here. Guilliman has been described as having the most numerous legion in the Horus Heresy artbooks, the Horus Heresy novels, and the 5th edition codex. He had also been described as having his legion escape from the worst of the Heresy.

 

IA Ultramarines:

 

As the largest Space Marine Legion, the Ultramarines' contributions to this resource was greater than any other Legion and, as a result, their gene-seed became the stock type for many of the Second Founding Chapters.

 

Goes and flat out says it.

 

And you are missing the fact that in the Scouring the Ultramarines took up vastly more engagements than any other marine chapter, including the Dark Angels, they would have suffered more casulties compared to the smaller legions.

 

Nothing is mentioned of it. You'll note that often, where a few simple words could clear this up and make Guilliman look a lot less power-hungry, there is nothing.

 

Actually that's really your opinion. There is nothing that outright states that Guilliman did anything but for the best intentions of the Imperium.

 

Delegation is a marvelous thing. I doubt Guilliman filled out many forms.

 

Russ might not be temperamentally inclined toward such things, but Jaghatai's conquests on his homeworld were pretty impressive. I think he could manage.

 

I did not mean literally. I'm sure that in the far future they don't have to fill out forms by hand.

 

I was speaking more of organizational skills. Putting aside the fact that Jaghatai's conquests fell apart after he left to hunt some Dark Eldar (which does not speak well of a good organisational base) Guilliman is essentially almost universally recognized as the best at organization and supply. The mere fact that Ultramar is eight thriving worlds while Mundus Planus is a feral world is testament to that.

 

If you need someone to rebuild a shattered infastructure Guilliman is pretty much a no-brainer choice. Plus, as JB85 says in his quote, he did it almost single-handedly.

 

Where did you get this "disappeared at Istvaan" stuff from? Because I've never seen this magical source, and I've read several sources that do have him doing things post-heresy (he's one of the ones who objects to splitting the legions almost every time it's mentioned).

 

I believed it's referencing in Fulgrim and Kyme's novel.

 

Not initially. When this stuff should presumably have been hammered out. Pretty much every loyal Primarch pops up at Terra shortly after Horus leaves or is already there.

 

Then he left shortly after to meet his fate on Caliban. He clearly did not have enough time to establish himself.

 

No it doesn't. It says he wasn't participating in the high-level governing councils of the Imperium. I doubt those things are held via teleconference. The highest councils of the Imperium presumably did not include all the Primarchs, or the whole legion-splitting thing would not come as such a surprise. Furthermore, I think it's mentioned that a lot of them were out leading their legions.

 

No it does not. There is no quote about most of them leading their legions. Furthermore as Commander in Chief Dorn would have been expected to be there. Obviously communications must have been sent, but Dorn ignored them or could not be reached.

 

In fact the IA says he was ''blinded''

 

Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times

 

That does not really speak well of his knowledge of the rest of the Imperium at the time.

 

I would also expect the primarchs to be there. After all, as the Primarchs participating in the highest councils of the Imperium would seem like a no-brainer thing to do. The splitting legions thing seemed to occer at the tail-end of the Scouring, and only after much later.

 

The Ultramarines and Dorn fight together during the heresy - rooting out some Iron Warrior fortresses or some crap (no, NOT the Iron Cage). They clearly could find him.

 

Could you give me a quote or source please? That's putting aside the fact that I was referncing events Post-Heresy in the years before the Scouring, and not the actual Heresy itself.

 

Furthermore, where does it say he was incommunicado?

 

I simply put two and two together. If Dorn was Commander in Chief then he should have been present at those highest councils. In any case most lilkely he should have been contacted. since he was not present and been repeatedly mentioned as being obessed with vengance it's safe to say Dorn did not really use his communications much.

 

Dude, the military hierarchy of the Imperium at the time consisted of the Emperor, then his twenty sons. That's not professional, no matter how you slice it. Trying to pretend it was is ridiculous. It was a soap opera, and a badly co-ordinated one at that.

 

You also are forgetting the thousands of Generals running the Imperial army groups. Like the one featured in Legion.

 

And, as I have repeatedly said, it is not Guilliman's decision to make. He "takes it upon himself". That's wrong. He's Dorn's junior, and there are four other Primarchs alive and kicking at the time. There are the High Lords of Terra. He has both superiors to whom he can appeal, and other officers whom he can consult with to decide what should be done and who should do it. He need not take anything upon himself, nor should he do so, especially since he is described elsewhere as being a firm proponent of hierarchy and structure.

 

And there is nothing saying he did not. You are effectively rushing to conclusions. Indeed, if he was a firm proponet of the military structure then he probably did. It would fit his personality. It's more likely than the cliched villian personality that goes against his past history and practices.

 

In fact Guilliman clearly was endorsed by the High Lords.

 

Index Astartes-Codex Astartes:

 

The newly created High Lords established the organisation of the Imperium that remains familiar to this day. The first High Lords laid down the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary lords. One of their most important accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium’s armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarine Legion of Space Marines, Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the Fleet and the Space Marines

 

He clearly had the backing of the resident authority in the Imperium.

 

The only explanation for why such a man would do what he did is the arrogant belief that he knew better than everyone else what should be done. And looking at other portrayals of his character, that is completely plausible.

 

Or not, once you stop using the vaugue refernces to believe the abolsute worst.

 

In fact Legatus put's it best.

 

You are blaming Guilliman for grabbing the power even though it should have been someone else, and then using that power to force everyone to adopt his Codex doctrines. The background never suggests anything of that sort. It is never described that Guilliman took power away from anyone else, or that all the Legions had to adopt the Codex battle doctrines. Instead, it is usually cited as praise for Guilliman that he did what he did, that he was there when the Imperium was in need, and that the Codex Astartes is a powerful tool that has served the Codex Chapter well for the past 10,000 years. You are taking all these elements, that are usually presented and intended as outstanding achievements and testament to greatness, and you twist them into something insidious. It is one thing if you don't like Guilliman because he was a boring person who kept strict principles and was not as "human" as some other Primarch may be described, but to insinuate him having selfish and ulterior motives for the actions he is most praised for has nothing to do with interpretation of background anymore.

 

That I myself consider the entire Alpha legion story to be pretty obvious propaganda. Come on, a superhuman miltiary general who has fought on hundreds of battlefields does not know insurgency? Please.

 

I would have said more but jb85 also covered it pretty well.

 

Tyrak:

 

Dorn's not abandoned any of his duties. You could argue that he's abandoned one of his moral responsibilities, but he's not shirking his legal duty. He's a war leader, not a bureaucrat.

 

I would. a commander in chief does not lead from the front lines. In any case he effectivly losthis position.

 

Roboute Guilliman's Codex Astartes:

 

Mark: 0

 

Please report to the chief examiner's office at 12:30pm to answer allegations of plagiarism. If no evidence of plagiarism is found, your work will be re-marked. Have a nice day. :rolleyes:

 

That wasn't the most academic thing he could have done. Perturabo was a heretic, but he was also a good siege expert. Referencing him allows his battle record to back up your claim that this is the right way to conduct siege warfare.

 

What's wrong with that? I don't know if you know this or not, but generals and other nations have borrowed and stole from each other all throught history. If an idea works you take it. It's how war has always worked. Unless you are trying to tell he Scipo Africanus and Erwin Rommel were idiots?

 

Talent for administration aside, why is Guilliman cleaning up the mess? That's the Council of Terra's job - it's why they replaced the War Council in the first place, so they could manage administration and leave the Primarchs to their war duties. Guilliman may have been the only Primarch who could have taken the administrative tasks upon himself, but that assumes only a Primarch is capable of managing it.

 

Putting aside the fact that he was the best one for the job he had the backing of the resident authority at the time.

 

Astropaths? Added to that, it's quite hard to mislay a Legion of Space Marines and their Primarch, even if the Legion has suffered losses in the Siege of Terra.

 

Then he must have ignored it.

[Legatus]

Corax (from your post I take it he was at the councils) was able to protest while the idea was still being discussed - he didn't have to wait until the Codex was finished before objecting to this being in it. Instead, he's able to head off plans to have this included. I can only assume that this was intended to be part of the Codex (with or without Guilliman's approval), otherwise Corax would not have had any need to object. If he and any other supporters had not objected, I assume this would have ended up in the Codex.

I don't know. The BFG source mentions the proposal that Marines should not have any fleet as "one of the most extreme opinions on offer", and Corax was one of many that protested against that proposal. I don't think we can conclude that it would have ended up in the Codex without Corax's protest. The whole story strikes me more at anecdotal (I.e. "There was a lot of discussion how the fleet should be organised. Some said this, some said that."), and not so much intended to make a specific point about Corax's role in shaping the fleet of today or that there was any real possibility that Marines would not have had a fleet.

 

 

Gree:

 

The Ultramarines and Dorn fight together during the heresy - rooting out some Iron Warrior fortresses or some crap (no, NOT the Iron Cage). They clearly could find him.

Could you give me a quote or source please? That's putting aside the fact that I was referncing events Post-Heresy in the years before the Scouring, and not the actual Heresy itself.

The Index Astartes Iron Warriors describes that after the heresy the Imperial Fists were supporting the Ultramarines in a decade long campaign to destroy the various bases of the Iron Warriors. But as the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines describes: "Legends tell that Guilliman was everywhere in these times, rallying defenders on one world and leading them to victory before moving on to another where his awe-inspiring skills might best serve humanity" So it is conceivable that Guilliman was constantly moving between different commands in the field as well as administrative efforts on Terra.

[Gree]

Gree:

 

The Ultramarines and Dorn fight together during the heresy - rooting out some Iron Warrior fortresses or some crap (no, NOT the Iron Cage). They clearly could find him.

Could you give me a quote or source please? That's putting aside the fact that I was referncing events Post-Heresy in the years before the Scouring, and not the actual Heresy itself.

The Index Astartes Iron Warriors describes that after the heresy the Imperial Fists were supporting the Ultramarines in a decade long campaign to destroy the various bases of the Iron Warriors. But as the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines describes: "Legends tell that Guilliman was everywhere in these times, rallying defenders on one world and leading them to victory before moving on to another where his awe-inspiring skills might best serve humanity" So it is conceivable that Guilliman was constantly moving between different commands in the field as well as administrative efforts on Terra.

 

Is Guilliman required to command the Ultramarines at all time in the field? Surely there are officers who could cooperate with the Fists.

 

But regardless, this add more fuel to the theory that dorn effectivly ignored everything else, if he could be reached but appearantly still 'blinded''.

[Octavulg]

Legatus:

- It becomes apparent that Alpharius would not bow to experience and superiority

 

Superiority is a stretch. Seniority, maybe. But no Primarch is superior to any other at this point (with the obvious exception of Horus).

 

- Guilliman closes with pointing out the thousands of victories and battle honours his Legion had won with these tactics and operations and tells Alpharius that the Alpha Legion in it's current structure could never hope to achieve anything similar.

 

A) You add the bit about their current structure. That's not in the text.

 

:) You forget that the motivation for this is clearly pointed out to be Alpharius refusing to concede his position.

 

C) He doesn't say achieve anything similar. He says never measure up. There's a difference. One is "you'll never be able to do what we did". The other is "you'll never be as good as us".

 

I'm sorry. But in that conversation, Guilliman's a jerk. A rather big one.

 

Maybe it is because Guillimans actions and his Codex are usually described in most detail in Ultramarine-based sources, so it seems obvious that the writers indeed indend for it all to be a great achievements. Also, not all elements of the Codex were decrees, as I have tried to demonstrate via quotes specifically saying so. If that does not help I don't know what will.

 

Alternately, it's because Ultramarine players are in many cases drawn to the Ultramarines by their characterization as the best and their presentation as being flawless, and thus respond poorly to suggestions that Guilliman might have flaws?

 

And I've pointed out repeatedly that we don't know what bits of the Codex were decrees and what weren't, and that presenting the Codex Astartes as a whole would probably make it look like bits of it were decrees even if they weren't.

 

If your superior officer gives you a book and says read it, and the book says "it's often appropriate to bow before addressing a superior officer", I think you might assume he was trying to get you to bow to him.

 

One Poster (I believe it was octavulg) refered to a passage that allegedly described how "Guilliman took it upon himself to assume controll over all Imperial forces", when that passage actually merely refers to Guilliman taking it upon himself to deploy his own Legionall across the galaxy to keep the Imperium from breaking apart.

 

*Sigh*

 

Guilliman started out by assuming authority on his own volition. That authority lead to him being considered the de facto leader of the Imperial military. Which presumably lead to him being the official leader of the Imperial military. I admit, I should have been more clear.

 

Regardless of that, I've seen you try and twist passages (notably the IA: Alpha Legion ones) to make Guilliman seem reasonable. Go look at what you said he said to Alpharius, above! You (or your subconscious) added, changed or omitted three parts of the passage, and the meaning was accordingly changed.

 

I mean, it is one thing to not like the character. It is another to misinterprete or spin the background to justify that dislike.

 

We may be taking our interpretation of Guilliman too far. That doesn't change the fact that there are three instances shown of him interacting with another Primarch.

 

The thing with Horus uses an English colloquialism for an argument or fight - "had words with".

 

The thing with Alpharius ends with a petty insult and was an argument long before that. He ends an admittedly heated debate with an ad hominem attack.

 

And his encounter with Dorn about the Codex turns into a screaming match where Guilliman calls Dorn a heretic.

 

That's Guilliman's interactions with others. Each of those encounters consists of him trying to tell others how to organize their militaries or conduct their campaigns, and each of them turns heated. Two of them end with Guilliman insulting someone because it's become clear that they're not going to agree. This suggests heavily that it's more about Guilliman being right than about trying to help others perform better. It also suggests that Guilliman deals with people in a fashion that results in them reacting hostilely - Horus had an argument with him. Horus. The guy who got along with Mortarion. Thus, we see two things: Guilliman believes he's right and forces it on others, and he does so in a fashion that makes them react badly.

 

To me, the best explanation is that Guilliman sees everyone as a subordinate, treats them as such, and they respond very badly. This would not be inappropriate behavior for someone who graduated military school immediately due to being so far above his teachers, and who had his own little empire within a few years. Guilliman's not used to people being as good as he is, or even close. He's met one person in his life who was clearly, obviously superior, and otherwise he's close enough that he can justify to himself how he's still superior. It'd also give him a touch of Roman arrogance, which is appropriate to his background as well.

 

Furthermore, keep in mind that people have read the IA series, often before reading Codex: Ultramarines, and Guilliman calling people a heretic is flat-out indefensible without the one second edition source. IA: Raven Guard says he was the "de facto" head, not the actual head. Hell, the Horus Heresy series, as I recall, doesn't mention Guilliman getting official authority, only that Dorn was the Warmaster after Horus. In short, the only source that says Guilliman had any official authority is contradicted by a more recent source, which describes his status as head of the Imperial military as "de facto", and is a source that is more likely to have been read by recent players than a Second Edition codex. From that perspective, him calling Dorn a heretic is completely indefensible, and only really explicable if you assume Guilliman thinks that disagreeing with Guilliman is a sign of heresy (or that he's given to petty insults when crossed, an interpretation I'll agree is also consistent :mellow:). With the second editon source, it becomes more reasonable, but many people will have read the IA series first, and there is an argument to be made that the IA series, as a more recent contradictory source, takes precedence.

 

When you add this to the above, Guilliman comes across as at best arrogant and convinced of his own rightness in all things, and at worst a flat-out megalomaniac (albeit not a traitorous one. Just one with an odd definition of loyalty).

 

It doesn't matter what you say, Legatus. The three encounters are as they are, and Guilliman's authority is as it is - it's officialness is cloudy at best, and the more recent source traditionally trumps the older one. Even if you do accept it, you should also accept that a lot of other people read the IA series first, and going just by the IA series, Guilliman doesn't have the authority to do a lot of what he did, but acts as though he does. And that perception sticks.

 

I hope that made things more clear for you.

 

Point 2: I still don't know why you would assume that a book that is intended to be about all aspects of a topic that contains a number of rules concerning that topic would then naturally have to be all rules. Take the Bible for example, it contains the ten commandmends, but most of the bible are parables and allegories.

 

Don't forget the history (regardless of its accuracy, it's still supposed to be history).

 

I don't assume that it's all rules. I assume that even the guidelines have the force of rules because they're presented with the rules, and that some things that are now guidelines may once have been rules.

 

See my superior officer example above.

 

Killing 90% of the enemy forces is not the only way to win a war. It had been asked why Alpharius had not immediately seized the capital, and his conduct had been censured by many quarters, so it seems apparent that the general belief was that the war could have been won much more efficiently. And that was not just Guilliman.

Now, this particular campaign was merely meant to show off his Legion's prowess, but while Horus congratulated him for overcoming such an opposition (no ulterior motive there, I' sure msn-wink.gif ), the rest was seemingly not impressed.

 

Taking a capital isn't either. Indeed, it often fails to win wars - note what happened when Napoleon took Moscow.

 

Furthermore, many military leaders in 40K take criticism from certain quarters, among them Marneus Calgar. Considering the only named source basically disagreed completely with everything Alpharius stood for, and considering the fact that you can make a decent argument for doing things Alpharius' way (which I will, if you really, really want),

 

Also, this may have been pre-warrior lodge Horus, so he may have just thought "well, he got the job done, and impressively so. Not many survivors, but they were rather dedicated foes, and I doubt they'd work for us. Net win."

 

These two parts are entirely different. They were devised under different circumstances and with different intentions. One is a set of laws that were deemed necessary to be instated after the events of the heresy, one is a substantial treatise on tactics, organisation, historical battles, heraldry and iconography.

 

Which makes their inclusion in the same volume all the more incongruous.

 

I'm not saying the Codex is wrong. I'm not even saying that the whole thing was necessarily decrees. I'm saying that given the way it was presented (and in part the reaction to it), it would certainly come across as decrees. The appropriate thing to do would have been to present them separately. Guilliman's failure to do so is wholly consistent with his character.

 

He was criticising Horus as well, so he did not just "push down" at the guys below.

 

Oh, true. However, Horus is a big boy. Alpharius, not so much. The same behavior toward two different people can be seen very differently.

 

The Dark Angels were divided into 4 Chapters, the Ultramarines into 24.

 

The horus heresy sources state that the average sitze for a Chapter was 100k, while the Ultramarines had 250k. I prefer the 10k numbers, so for this purpose let's assume that the 24k the Ultramarines had at the time of the second founding were about standard size for them. IIRC the Ultramarines had lost 1/3 of their forces in the Word Bearers attack on Calth, so they would have raced to Earth with a strength of about 16,000. That would still have been more than what the Dark Angels probably had. I assume the casualties both Legions suffered in minor engagements were similar, so at the point where the heresy ended the Ultramarines Legion would probably still have had about twice the size of the Dark Angels Legion.

 

I, too, prefer the smaller numbers. However, the Dark Angels size at the Second Founding is inconsistent with them being a normally sized legion considering what they went through. Keep in mind that they do participate in the Scouring et al, and yet they're still bigger than some legions afterward. This is after losing their main recruitment base, their Primarch and at least half their legion strength, plus having a planet blow up underneath them.

 

I don't think they were bigger than the Ultramarines (at least, not for more than the time it took to go from Terra to Caliban). But I do think they had to be pretty big to endure all the things they apparently did and still exist.

 

That, or the Scouring inflicted absolutely horrendous casualties on the Ultramarines, while leaving the other Chapters mostly untouched. As is, they appear to have taken more losses than other Legions, but at least some of the Legions must have been a little bigger than average, or the numbers at the Second Founding start to make it look like the Ultramarines enjoy catching bullets with their faces in their spare time.

[Gree]

That, or the Scouring inflicted absolutely horrendous casualties on the Ultramarines, while leaving the other Chapters mostly untouched. As is, they appear to have taken more losses than other Legions, but at least some of the Legions must have been a little bigger than average, or the numbers at the Second Founding start to make it look like the Ultramarines enjoy catching bullets with their faces in their spare time.

 

 

The Scouring most likely did do that. The Ultramarines provided the bulk of the marines in the field and were involved across the galaxy.

 

He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion.

 

Obviously the Ultramarines took the greatest losses because they were the most involved and active. Remember, they where much bigger than the other legions in the Scouring.

[Octavulg]

jb85:

Splitting the legions into smaller independent chapters, is in part, a nod to the decentralised command structure favoured by Alpharius.

 

There's a difference between lots of small units and a large, decentralized unit.

 

The Ultramarines have always been described as the largest legion in existance, pre and post heresy. Both the HH novels and Ultramarines IA make reference to it. Even being generous and assuming that the DA lost two thirds of their number at Caliban, that would still put them at approximately half the strength of the Ultramarines.

 

Er...the DA engaged approximately equal numbers of Space Marines, then had the planet blow up beneath them. I think two-thirds losses is being optimistic.

 

Plus, keep in mind that at least some of the traitors count as DA until Jonson gets there and it is revealed that their traitors.

 

You should also keep in mind that at least part of the Ultramarines becoming over half the Space Marines in existence is that the other legions declined, rather than the Ultramarines grew (though they did).

 

These are very fuzzy estimates at best, but various background materials have the Ultramarines as the largest legion regardless and we have (IIRC) no timescale from the end of the Siege of Terra to the Caliban incident (other than it was before the Codex was set down). In addition Jonson being head of the first legion provides him with no additional authority or title.

 

He's the head of the most senior legion. To paraphrase another author, while theoretically all First Sergeants are equal, there is a marked difference in authority between being First Sergeant of the Army, and First Sergeant of C Company, 36th Battalion.

 

We have nine loyalist legions available after the Siege of Terra. The Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Dark Angels and Blood Angels had all been left mauled or leaderless in the aftermath of the Heresy. So you have Dorn, Russ, Khan and Guilliman left to take up the taks of reorganising the Imperium. Dorn led his legion against the Traitors from the front, willingly leaving the role of shaping the new Imperium to Guilliman. That leaves Russ and the Khan, fine strategists and tacticians, but why give such a task to one of them when you have one of the galaxy’s leading administrative and logistical experts, who would be infinitely more suited to the task.

 

True. On the other hand, when said expert is the one making the decision, it looks a little...off.

 

On the contrary, it would seem that there is quite an administrative burden on Guilliman, per the Codex Astartes IA.

 

There is a difference between administration and paperwork.

 

There is some degree of confusion over this one. As you have mentioned Vulkan is named as an opponent to splitting the legion. However the HH Novel Fulgrim and the HH Collected Vision Book both describe Vulkan as being MIA, presumed dead, in the aftermath of the dropsite massacre.

 

Then one can only assume he pops back up (though I admit that it'd make a lot more sense for it to be Khan, Russ and Dorn opposing the Codex, while Corax and Vulkan or someone else supported it).

 

Vulkan's absence makes a lot of stuff seem really, really weird.

 

The reorganisation of the Imperium did not take place in the immediate aftermath of the Siege of Terra.

 

No, but presumably they had something like an overall plan before launching themselves after fleeing legions. Even if it was only "you go right, I'll go left".

 

Guilliman becomes a High Lord of Terra in the aftermath of the Heresy, taking the title of Lord Commander of the Imperium. The High Lords of Terra replaced the previous governing body, the Council of Terra. As ruling body of the Imperium, the High Lords presumably had the authority to revoke Dorn’s status as Commander of all Imperial forces and replace him with Guilliman. In addition the following quote infers that Guilliman had some authority over Dorn.

 

Which is not the point - originally, Guilliman took it upon himself to hold the Imperium together. Which was not his role to take.

 

Seriously. Guilliman stops looking all sneaky with the addition of the words "With Dorn refusing to take responsibility". I mean, it's still a little arrogant, but it's a lot more understandable.

 

In comparison to Dorn who is described as vain and cannot see why the Imperial Fists are no longer trusted as they once were. Guilliman may have been arrogant but those who oppose his move to split the legions had questionable grounding IMO. Russ and Vulkan are both described as refusing to split their forces during the Crusade in the IW IA and Dorn’s stance is implied to be an emotional one. I can’t blame Guilliman for forcing his reforms through, given that the above three Primarchs didn’t exactly put forward a compelling case as to why he was wrong.

 

Er...we don't have either much of either side's case. Dorn said he couldn't properly defend Terra with only a Chapter, and I think he likely had a point (especially at the time - Terra was likely still recovering from the Heresy, even that late). Furthermore, he's just spent years kicking traitor Space Marines around the galaxy. He most certainly knows the difference between traitors and loyalists, and likely assumes others do to.

 

The Council of Terra is replaced by the High Lords of Terra, of which Guilliman acts as the military representative. Therefore when he begins the reorganisation of the Imperium, it is reasonable to assume that he does so under the express approval and authority of the Imperium’s newly formed governing body.

 

Yes. However, he initially takes the defense of the Imperium upon himself in Dorn's absence. Which is not the appropriate course of action in the circumstances.

 

Guilliman never insinuates that Dorn is disloyal (bear in mind that his own legion will be undergoing the same restructuring, so he would be calling himself disloyal), it is more the perception that humanity in general has of the Space Marines after the Heresy. This is something Dorn struggles to get to grips with. Guilliman’s re-forms are to limit the impact of further Heresy down the road and to increase the responsiveness and coverage of the Space Marines. And to be fair, given that half of the Primarchs turned, no ones loyalty is above question.

 

Really? How about the Primarchs who didn't turn, even when it would have been a really, really good idea?

 

Dorn held the dying Emperor in his arms. Guilliman doesn't get to question his loyalty.

 

* * *

 

Gree:

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

I evidently misremembered the quote. Considering I can't consistently find it, that's not surprising. :D

 

No, I'm sorry, you do not have a point here. Guilliman has been described as having the most numerous legion in the Horus Heresy artbooks, the Horus Heresy novels, and the 5th edition codex. He had also been described as having his legion escape from the worst of the Heresy.

 

And I said that the Dark Angels, for a brief period in history, might have close to as many, or possibly slightly more. For about a week, before they go home and get virtually annihilated.

 

IA Ultramarines:

 

QUOTE

As the largest Space Marine Legion, the Ultramarines' contributions to this resource was greater than any other Legion and, as a result, their gene-seed became the stock type for many of the Second Founding Chapters.

 

That's after the Dark Angels have a planet blow up underneath them and the Ultramarines have been running the Ultramarine-presses full tilt. I'm talking about a very brief window in time - after the Heresy, when the Ultramarines are still battered and have yet to start ramping up recruitment and before the Dark Angels go back to Caliban. That's not very long.

 

The Ultramarines have eight times the recruitment base of other Legions. The Dark Angels end up with no recruitment base for at least a while. The Ultramarines have a Primarch. The Dark Angels do not. The Ultramarines were not on a planet that blew up and was sucked into the Warp. The Dark Angels were. The Ultramarines did not engage a force equal to their own size en masse. The Dark Angels did.

 

In order to do all those things and still have enough marines to found four or five chapters, the Dark Angels must have had a lot of marines. I'm not saying they kept them for long. :( Meanwhile, the Ultramarines would have been at a low point in their strength - they'd finished fighting the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion.

 

The mentions of Ultramarine size happen twice - once shortly after Guilliman is found, and once during the Scouring. I'm talking about a point between those two times, one which likely wouldn't be mentioned because it wouldn't last very long and had more to do with Ultramarine casualties than anything else.

 

And you are missing the fact that in the Scouring the Ultramarines took up vastly more engagements than any other marine chapter, including the Dark Angels, they would have suffered more casulties compared to the smaller legions.

 

They also had eight times the recruitment base.

 

Actually that's really your opinion. There is nothing that outright states that Guilliman did anything but for the best intentions of the Imperium.

 

Er...where does it state why he did anything?

 

Furthermore - victors write history books. The IA series is written from a contemporary Imperial perspective.

 

I was speaking more of organizational skills. Putting aside the fact that Jaghatai's conquests fell apart after he left to hunt some Dark Eldar (which does not speak well of a good organisational base)

 

All that says is that he doesn't know how to run an empire. He certainly knows how to conquer and defend one.

 

Furthermore, his conquests fell apart after he left to fight with his Legion. The Emperor is noted as arriving a few months after the conquest was finished. The IA also notes that Jaghatai's people had no interest in maintaining an empire, and that Jaghatai may have let things fall apart intentionally, to keep the recruits for the legion strong.

 

So...yeah.

 

Guilliman is essentially almost universally recognized as the best at organization and supply. The mere fact that Ultramar is eight thriving worlds while Mundus Planus is a feral world is testament to that.

 

No, it's not.

 

The IA Ultramarines itself goes into great detail about how much better off the region of Ultramar was compared to the rest of the galaxy even before Guilliman got there. By your logic, the fact that Deliverance is more productive than Baal proves just how much more capable at organization Corax is relative to Sanguinius - when all it proves is that one's a mining colony with a pre-existing developed infrastructure and one's a bloody desert.

 

Now, the whole thing with maintaining the Ultramarine conquests, that does. But Ultramar proves nothing other than starting out with a well developed planet with a spacefaring navy makes it a lot easier to conquer/subjugate other planets.

 

Then he left shortly after to meet his fate on Caliban. He clearly did not have enough time to establish himself.

 

Yes. He did. But he was an available alternative at a time when the Primarchs were presumably trying to hammer out just what they were going to do with this Imperium thing.

 

He clearly had the backing of the resident authority in the Imperium.

 

It could be anything from them taking credit for what he did after the fact right up to them standing behind him when he presented the Codex Astartes. Furthermore, some of the High Lord positions seem to date from at least a while after the Heresy - I know for a fact there wasn't an Ecclesiarch, and I'm pretty sure about the head of the Arbites, the Master of the Astronomican, and the Grand Master of Assassins. There would also have been no Lord Commander of the Guard, likely none of the Segmentum Solar, no Cardinals, and no Adeptus Sororitas, as well as likely no Speaker for the Chartist Captains.

 

In short, we have no idea how firmly established the High Lords were, who is a High Lord, or what authority Guilliman had been given to make his reforms. It's possible that all the remaining Primarchs were technically High Lords - it does say there were twelve of them, and that they were the most powerful men in the Imperium, and there's a lot of empty space in the roster.

 

It's a good point, but it doesn't tell us how much authority Guilliman had been given or what he was supposed to be doing with it. Nor does it tell us what authority the other Primarchs possessed at the time. However, it is clear that he wasn't acting wholly of his own volition (or if he was, the regular authority was going along with it).

 

Or not, once you stop using the vaugue refernces to believe the abolsute worst. That I myself consider the entire Alpha legion story to be pretty obvious propaganda. Come on, a superhuman miltiary general who has fought on hundreds of battlefields does not know insurgency? Please.

 

Well, plenty of modern generals don't, and the Primarchs have been seen to make plenty of stupid mistakes modern generals would (hopefully) get dismissed for (Ferrus Manus, anyone?)

 

Dealing with insurgents is the work of garrison troops. The Primarchs did not lead garrison forces. Furthermore, a lot of the Alpha Legion tactics are offensive, not defensive - it's not outside the realm of possibility that he'd simply never encountered someone fighting like Alpharius, and if he had they hadn't had the advantage of power armor and having read his Codex.

 

The Scouring most likely did do that. The Ultramarines provided the bulk of the marines in the field and were involved across the galaxy.

 

Good luck convincing the Ultramarines of that, then. :P

 

Look at it this way - with eight times the recruitment rate of other chapters, the Ultramarines end up as more than half the Marines in the field.

 

However, by the time of the Second Founding, seven years later, there're 4000-5000 more of the other Legions (27 chapters to 24). The other Legions took part in the Scouring too, remember - even the Raven Guard were fighting. Considering the greatly increased recruitment rate the Ultramarines apparently enjoyed, those are really, really serious losses.

[TheDarker]

Let´s face it, with the information we have we can think whatever we want to believe. The fluff of 40k (or 30k, in this case) is big but it doesn´t cover EVERY conversation, doesn´t explain the feelings or opinions of EVERYONE etc etc). I´m pretty sure the fluff writers of GW never expected this kind of "interpretations" of the fluff, or they would have writed something like that: "After the Heresy, it was obvious that a reorganization of the Empire was necessary. So the more important people met: it was Guilliman, Russ, Jaghatai, and Corax. Vulkan cannot go because traffic was terrible, Dorn was busy killing traitors, doesn´t answer the e-mails. They voted for someone who act as a representative of the Primarchs, and Guilliman was elected. Not because they wanted to be, he has more votes, just like that. And he began to reorganize the Legions, and the Navy, and the Army: Of course, there was a council for everything, and voting, and all of this. The first thing they decided was...."

 

Ad Nauseam.

 

I mean, to REALLY have a true point of view we would need more than several lines alone in several codex who can (and are, and will be) misunderstood....

 

 

PD: Just two points:

 

a) Some people says that Guilliman imposes his ideas... but always uses the "fight" with Alpharius... well, there were 20 primarchs, they argue with one (and, more probably, because Guilliman considers that an Space Marine Force should have several limits not to cross, like, in example, not using "terrorist" tactics) and he imposes his opinions on everyone? Well, he argue a bit with Horus, but not to tell "you fight wrong", just "you must be careful, the planets you conquer usually rebels" and surely he tried to warn his brothers about Angron, but what?. Does he tell Corax, who´s sneaker tactics were "similar" to Alpharius "you´re fighting wrong"? Does he tell Sang´ something similar? Hell, does he tell Russ? Maybe he thinked his tactics were barbarian, but he also thinked that they were battling with honor, something that (maybe) Guilliman thinked Alpharius wasn´t doing

 

b)Guilliman imposes the division.... well, there were Primarchs against this decree, but only one seems to have REAL problems with it, Dorn. The rest are quiet at this point... maybe they were convinced in, maybe, the COUNCILS when Dorn was not present. I´m pretty sure if everyone opossed Guilliman would have deleted this of the Codex. Or worst, divided only his Legions (of which he will be blamed, i´m sure :D :( :P). Something like that:

 

-"Dorn, we must divide our legions"

-"WHAT?? WHEN THE HELL DID YOU DECIDED THAT"

-"... well, last year, in several councils, you were invited..."

-"i was BATTLING TRAITORS"

-"me too, was with you. And i assist..."

-"It´s everyone ok with this???"

-"Well, Corax and Russ has problems..."

-"AHA!!!"

-"... but now are fine..."

-"Damm..."

-"C´mon Dorn, it´s necessary"

-"Why? just because half of the most trusted allies of the Emperor turned, Humanity will not believe in us?"

-"Euh... yes, and because we can die, and we don´t know who will have the command after us (Tell Ferrus...)"

-"I disagree with this. The rest of the Codex seems fine, but because i disagree with this two lines, i disagree with the other one-thousand-lines of the Codex"

-"<sigh>"

[Legatus]

- It becomes apparent that Alpharius would not bow to experience and superiority

Superiority is a stretch. Seniority, maybe. But no Primarch is superior to any other at this point (with the obvious exception of Horus).

I was going by the words used in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion there.

 

 

- Guilliman closes with pointing out the thousands of victories and battle honours his Legion had won with these tactics and operations and tells Alpharius that the Alpha Legion in it's current structure could never hope to achieve anything similar.

 

 

A) You add the bit about their current structure. That's not in the text.

 

B ) You forget that the motivation for this is clearly pointed out to be Alpharius refusing to concede his position.

 

C) He doesn't say achieve anything similar. He says never measure up. There's a difference. One is "you'll never be able to do what we did". The other is "you'll never be as good as us".

When Alpharius would not bow to his experience and superiority, Guilliman "pointed out the thousands of victories and battle honors his Legion had won and told his coungest brother that he could never hope to compare."

I would take that as pointing out the consequence, i.e. not being able to compare in terms of victories and honors, to Alpharius's decision to not adopt the Codex doctrines. I paraphrased "compare" with "achieving anything similar". I thought that would be similar enough.

Of course I "assumed" that it was a direct result to Alpharius's refusal to adopt, hence my statement that it refered to the Alpha Legion if it was to keep its current structure. I do think that is what Guilliman was playing at. If Alpharius was to adopt the Codex doctrine, he could be on par with the other Legions, at least that is what Guilliman believed. But since Alhparius is not willing to adopt, he finally tells him that he will not be able to compare like that.

I did include Alpharius's decision to not accept the Codex doctrines in my breakdown of the events, but I may have omited the consequential connection to Guillimans final statement in my bullet point breakdown.

 

 

Alternately, it's because Ultramarine players are in many cases drawn to the Ultramarines by their characterization as the best and their presentation as being flawless, and thus respond poorly to suggestions that Guilliman might have flaws?

That will certainly occur. I would love to claim that it is not the case with me, but I may not be the best judge of that. Personally, I see a lot of forced and biased interpretations on the side of his critics.

 

 

And I've pointed out repeatedly that we don't know what bits of the Codex were decrees and what weren't, and that presenting the Codex Astartes as a whole would probably make it look like bits of it were decrees even if they weren't.

 

If your superior officer gives you a book and says read it, and the book says "it's often appropriate to bow before addressing a superior officer", I think you might assume he was trying to get you to bow to him.

The Codex is not just army size regulations and Chapter organisation. There are accounts of famous battles, essays on tactical markings, heraldry, training methods. I do think that most of those elements would probably not appear as or be mistaken for rules that had to be obeyed. That does not stop a lot of Chapters from taking all the elements of the Codex as a holy text and following it to the letter, of course.

 

 

Guilliman started out by assuming authority on his own volition. That authority lead to him being considered the de facto leader of the Imperial military. Which presumably lead to him being the official leader of the Imperial military. I admit, I should have been more clear.

I am not sure how the description given in the Index Astartes Ultramarines, about Guilliman taking it upon himself to have teh Ultramarines defend the wounded Imperium, and the description in the Index Astartes Raven Guard, about Guilliman being the de facto head of the Imperium's armed forces, are connected. I do think they refer to two different isntances. Guilliman was not the head of the Imperium's armed forces in the description in the IA UM. The Raven Guard IA probably refers to a later instance, where he was, but that is then not connected to him "taking it upon himself".

 

 

Regardless of that, I've seen you try and twist passages (notably the IA: Alpha Legion ones) to make Guilliman seem reasonable. Go look at what you said he said to Alpharius, above! You (or your subconscious) added, changed or omitted three parts of the passage, and the meaning was accordingly changed.

I hope I have explained myself satisfyingly above.

 

 

We may be taking our interpretation of Guilliman too far. That doesn't change the fact that there are three instances shown of him interacting with another Primarch.

 

The thing with Horus uses an English colloquialism for an argument or fight - "had words with".

 

The thing with Alpharius ends with a petty insult and was an argument long before that. He ends an admittedly heated debate with an ad hominem attack.

 

And his encounter with Dorn about the Codex turns into a screaming match where Guilliman calls Dorn a heretic.

I though "having a word with someone" would usually refer to a serious talk about an issue. When Guilliman was having a word with Horus, Horus pacified him by conceding that Guilliman was better at these sort of things. Regardles of the fact that Horus might just have said that to get Guilliman off his back, Guilliman was right in this instance, as Horus's rashness was causing problems with further rebellions flaring up on some planets as soon as the Luna Wolves had left.

 

In the instance with Dorn he was "right" as well, as in "he had official backing", but I know you would have preferred if he had be more tactful.

 

The Alpha Legion instance was just a discussion about optimal doctrines, with no particular thing at stake. In both the instance with Alpharius as well as the instance with Dorn the case can be made that it was them who were emotional and let things get out of hand, and not so much Guilliman's, based on Alpharius's and Dorn's actions around that time. In the instance with Horus, the two had a professional discussion. Guilliman had a very "spartan" upbringing, with effort and duty being important values, so it is conceivable that he was strict about his own and his brothers' profession, and was not lenient toward some more personal quirks. Horus was able to cope with that. Dorn would probably have been as well, had teh circumstances been different.

 

 

Furthermore, keep in mind that people have read the IA series, often before reading Codex: Ultramarines, and Guilliman calling people a heretic is flat-out indefensible without the one second edition source. IA: Raven Guard says he was the "de facto" head, not the actual head. Hell, the Horus Heresy series, as I recall, doesn't mention Guilliman getting official authority, only that Dorn was the Warmaster after Horus. In short, the only source that says Guilliman had any official authority is contradicted by a more recent source, which describes his status as head of the Imperial military as "de facto", and is a source that is more likely to have been read by recent players than a Second Edition codex. From that perspective, him calling Dorn a heretic is completely indefensible, and only really explicable if you assume Guilliman thinks that disagreeing with Guilliman is a sign of heresy (or that he's given to petty insults when crossed, an interpretation I'll agree is also consistent tongue.gif). With the second editon source, it becomes more reasonable, but many people will have read the IA series first, and there is an argument to be made that the IA series, as a more recent contradictory source, takes precedence.

At least the Index Astartes "Codex Astartes" still mentions the High Lords of Terra. It is on page 12 in the first IA volume, under "The Codex Astartes". Though it does not outright states that Guilliman had been one of the first High Lords (the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines did), it still states that it was one of "their" most important accomplishments to reorganise the Imperium's armed forces, and that this task was almost single-handedly undertaken by Roboute Guilliman.

 

 

Furthermore, many military leaders in 40K take criticism from certain quarters, among them Marneus Calgar. Considering the only named source basically disagreed completely with everything Alpharius stood for, and considering the fact that you can make a decent argument for doing things Alpharius' way (which I will, if you really, really want),

I do think "inviting censure from many quarters" and Horus being the only one to openly praise his performance is intended to show that there was justified criticism.

 

 

Which makes their inclusion in the same volume all the more incongruous.

It was intended as an all encompassing work of reference.

 

 

Oh, true. However, Horus is a big boy. Alpharius, not so much. The same behavior toward two different people can be seen very differently.

I would describe Guilliman as "pragmatic". Horus was able to cope with that. Dorn would probably have been as well, had he not suffered the loss of his father. Alpharius was probably not as well attuned for that kind of mannerism.

 

 

I, too, prefer the smaller numbers. However, the Dark Angels size at the Second Founding is inconsistent with them being a normally sized legion considering what they went through. Keep in mind that they do participate in the Scouring et al, and yet they're still bigger than some legions afterward. This is after losing their main recruitment base, their Primarch and at least half their legion strength, plus having a planet blow up underneath them.

The Dark Angels ended up with about as much Men as the Blood Angels, the White Scars and even the Iron Hands. All of those Chapters had seen heavy fighting during the heresy, where the Dark Angels had not. And in some cases (IH, RG) it seems they were even actually able to recover some numbers before the second founding. The Dark Angels might have ended the Heresy with about 8,000 men, but then lost half of them at the battle for Caliban. Perhaps they lost some more in the fighting, or they were able to recover some more before the second founding. I don't think 4,000 is unreasonable under those circumstances.

[Gree]

That's after the Dark Angels have a planet blow up underneath them and the Ultramarines have been running the Ultramarine-presses full tilt. I'm talking about a very brief window in time - after the Heresy, when the Ultramarines are still battered and have yet to start ramping up recruitment and before the Dark Angels go back to Caliban. That's not very long.

 

The Ultramarines have eight times the recruitment base of other Legions. The Dark Angels end up with no recruitment base for at least a while. The Ultramarines have a Primarch. The Dark Angels do not. The Ultramarines were not on a planet that blew up and was sucked into the Warp. The Dark Angels were. The Ultramarines did not engage a force equal to their own size en masse. The Dark Angels did.

 

In order to do all those things and still have enough marines to found four or five chapters, the Dark Angels must have had a lot of marines. I'm not saying they kept them for long. :D Meanwhile, the Ultramarines would have been at a low point in their strength - they'd finished fighting the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion.

 

The mentions of Ultramarine size happen twice - once shortly after Guilliman is found, and once during the Scouring. I'm talking about a point between those two times, one which likely wouldn't be mentioned because it wouldn't last very long and had more to do with Ultramarine casualties than anything else.

 

So........you agree with me? Cool.

 

Oh yes, during the Scouring only Macragge was mentioned as providing recruits.

 

Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field

 

They also had eight times the recruitment base.

 

That does not change the fact that they were involved in much more battles nor does it decrease the amount of time needed to make and train a marine. And I;ll bring up the only Macragge point again.

 

Er...where does it state why he did anything?

 

The Index Astartes and Codex were pretty clear on how me made the Codex Astartes and was involved with the High Lords in rebuilding and restrucing the Imperium.

 

Furthermore - victors write history books. The IA series is written from a contemporary Imperial perspective.

 

Not really, the Dark Angels IA contains refernces to the Fall which no average Imperial scribe would know about. Not to mention the whole bit of the Heresy would be unknown to the average Imperial scribe.

 

But if what you say is true then your entire point about the Alpha Legion's tactics and the entire article about it can easily be dismissed then as ''propaganda'', by your own logic.

 

All that says is that he doesn't know how to run an empire. He certainly knows how to conquer and defend one.

 

Furthermore, his conquests fell apart after he left to fight with his Legion. The Emperor is noted as arriving a few months after the conquest was finished. The IA also notes that Jaghatai's people had no interest in maintaining an empire, and that Jaghatai may have let things fall apart intentionally, to keep the recruits for the legion strong.

 

So...yeah.

 

Yeah, if he did not even care to try and see what a organised civlization would be like then that speaks wonders about him.

 

No, it's not.

 

The IA Ultramarines itself goes into great detail about how much better off the region of Ultramar was compared to the rest of the galaxy even before Guilliman got there. By your logic, the fact that Deliverance is more productive than Baal proves just how much more capable at organization Corax is relative to Sanguinius - when all it proves is that one's a mining colony with a pre-existing developed infrastructure and one's a bloody desert.

 

Now, the whole thing with maintaining the Ultramarine conquests, that does. But Ultramar proves nothing other than starting out with a well developed planet with a spacefaring navy makes it a lot easier to conquer/subjugate other planets.

 

Not really.

 

As far as I can tell Guilliman did not really conquer any other realms of Ultramar, In fact Macragge was involved with severe Civil strife when Guilliman arrived. You are also ignoring the part where Guilliman helped rebuild and enlarge Macragge.

 

Macragge went from being a small empire troubled by civil strife and aliens to the ''perfect human society''.

 

A year later, the rebellion was forgotten and Macragge flourished like never before. Soon Macragge had been almost completely rebuilt with wondrous structures of smooth marble, steel and glass. The people prospered and wanted for nothing. Disciplined, well-equipped armies from Macragge kept the King's peace, and starships travelled regularly between neighbouring systems. It was, in all respects, a perfect model of human society, and when the Emperor learned of this Utopian civilisation he took ship for Macragge to meet its legendary King.

 

 

and under Roboute Guilliman's guidance these worlds were revolutionised into prosperous, productive planets where honest toil and virtue are rewarded. The inhabitants of these worlds are industrious, disciplined and intensely loyal to the Ultramarines.

 

 

Yes. He did. But he was an available alternative at a time when the Primarchs were presumably trying to hammer out just what they were going to do with this Imperium thing.

 

Not really. The IA Dark Angels says he was consumed with shame. Plus he departed shortly after to Caliban.

 

It could be anything from them taking credit for what he did after the fact right up to them standing behind him when he presented the Codex Astartes. Furthermore, some of the High Lord positions seem to date from at least a while after the Heresy - I know for a fact there wasn't an Ecclesiarch, and I'm pretty sure about the head of the Arbites, the Master of the Astronomican, and the Grand Master of Assassins. There would also have been no Lord Commander of the Guard, likely none of the Segmentum Solar, no Cardinals, and no Adeptus Sororitas, as well as likely no Speaker for the Chartist Captains.

 

In short, we have no idea how firmly established the High Lords were, who is a High Lord, or what authority Guilliman had been given to make his reforms. It's possible that all the remaining Primarchs were technically High Lords - it does say there were twelve of them, and that they were the most powerful men in the Imperium, and there's a lot of empty space in the roster.

 

It's a good point, but it doesn't tell us how much authority Guilliman had been given or what he was supposed to be doing with it. Nor does it tell us what authority the other Primarchs possessed at the time. However, it is clear that he wasn't acting wholly of his own volition (or if he was, the regular authority was going along with it).

 

He seems he had plenty of authority if he could not only present the codex but reorganize the Guard and Navy as well.

 

Well, plenty of modern generals don't, and the Primarchs have been seen to make plenty of stupid mistakes modern generals would (hopefully) get dismissed for (Ferrus Manus, anyone?)

 

Oh, no, the answer is simple. Most Black Library authors are not soldiers or have not researched miltiary tactics. Abnett himself notes this somewhat in a Gaunt's Ghosts introduction.

 

Dealing with insurgents is the work of garrison troops. The Primarchs did not lead garrison forces. Furthermore, a lot of the Alpha Legion tactics are offensive, not defensive - it's not outside the realm of possibility that he'd simply never encountered someone fighting like Alpharius, and if he had they hadn't had the advantage of power armor and having read his Codex.

 

I'm sorry, but Guilliman had experiance against the Illyrian tribesmen and pacifed the region before. You cannot seriously tell me that Guilliman did not once even encounter or bother to study insurgents.

 

Roboute marched north into the untamed lands of Illyrium and launched a brilliant campaign against the tribesmen. His genius for military strategy and organisation was nothing short of legendary, and within two months his expeditionary force had not only pacified the entire region but had earned the respect of the fierce tribesmen.

 

Good luck convincing the Ultramarines of that, then. :(

 

Why? The Ultramarines in universe seem to recognise that is Guilliman had so many new recruits made.

 

Look at it this way - with eight times the recruitment rate of other chapters, the Ultramarines end up as more than half the Marines in the field.

 

However, by the time of the Second Founding, seven years later, there're 4000-5000 more of the other Legions (27 chapters to 24). The other Legions took part in the Scouring too, remember - even the Raven Guard were fighting. Considering the greatly increased recruitment rate the Ultramarines apparently enjoyed, those are really, really serious losses.

 

Correct, Guilliman sent his legion all acorss the Imperium. I don't know if you know this but a million worlds is a very big place to fight. That's alot of ground you have to cover. The Ultramarines would have probably been strecthed thin and fightign almost constantly.

 

Oh, and I'll quote the Macragge thing once more.

 

Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field

 

No mention of the other worlds.

[jb85]

There's a difference between lots of small units and a large, decentralized unit.

 

There is a difference, but there is also similarities. I doubt Guilliman has complete disregard for Alpharius, however reading the Alpha Legion IA his rebuke was well deserved (if not a bit petty a comment by Guilliman).

 

Er...the DA engaged approximately equal numbers of Space Marines, then had the planet blow up beneath them. I think two-thirds losses is being optimistic.

 

Apologies if there are quotes backing this up, but the Dark Angel IA states that the majority of the legion joined the Crusade. Why would approximately half the DA legion be left on garrison duty in the middle of a galaxy wide Crusade/Heresy?

 

You should also keep in mind that at least part of the Ultramarines becoming over half the Space Marines in existence is that the other legions declined, rather than the Ultramarines grew (though they did).

 

Whilst the Ultramarines had the largest recruitment base they also seemed to be spread the thinnest during the Hersey, so it is hard to back that statement up with any real conviction.

 

He's the head of the most senior legion. To paraphrase another author, while theoretically all First Sergeants are equal, there is a marked difference in authority between being First Sergeant of the Army, and First Sergeant of C Company, 36th Battalion.

 

No offence but that to me is rubbish. Dark Angels may be Legion one but that never seems to come into play when judging seniority of the Primarchs. From what I have taken from reading various background material is that Horus (obviously), Dorn and Sanguinius seem to stand as senior brothers amongst the Primarchs and they are legions 7, 9 and 16.

 

True. On the other hand, when said expert is the one making the decision, it looks a little...off.

 

So what, does he wait till the rest start acting as cheerleaders for him? Given the general reaction to the initial appointment of Horus as Warmaster, you would be waiting along time for a consensus appointment.

 

There is a difference between administration and paperwork.

 

There is but both require alot more desk time (it was noted in the novels that Horus made far fewer front line appearances after appointment as Warmaster).

 

No, but presumably they had something like an overall plan before launching themselves after fleeing legions. Even if it was only "you go right, I'll go left".

 

Yes, but division of the Imperial Army into the Fleet and the Guard, reorganisation of the Legions etc all likely happen down the road after the situation stabilises somewhat.

 

Which is not the point - originally, Guilliman took it upon himself to hold the Imperium together. Which was not his role to take.

 

The role might not have been his legally but it was the correct moral decision and the results can speak for themselves. In addition the quote you refer to simply says he sent his legion across the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, not that he lauched a coup.

 

Seriously. Guilliman stops looking all sneaky with the addition of the words "With Dorn refusing to take responsibility". I mean, it's still a little arrogant, but it's a lot more understandable.

 

Imperial Fist IA states that Dorn led his legion from the front against the Traitors while others reorganised the Imperium. Nothing about there being an issue, argument, bone of contention or anything else. Therefore there is nothing to suggest that Dorn was not happy with Guilliman’s role, or the High Lords of Terra at this point and to say there was is pure supposition.

 

Er...we don't have either much of either side's case. Dorn said he couldn't properly defend Terra with only a Chapter, and I think he likely had a point (especially at the time - Terra was likely still recovering from the Heresy, even that late). Furthermore, he's just spent years kicking traitor Space Marines around the galaxy. He most certainly knows the difference between traitors and loyalists, and likely assumes others do to.

 

Bit of an irony given that he took the Imperial Fists off on a Crusade to attack Traitors after the Siege and presumably left the defence of Terra to someone else. Dorn may know he is loyal but look at it another way. The Emperor’s first son, his finest general and one of the greatest heroes in the galaxy turned traitor. To the general public that probably means that everyone’s loyalty can be questioned.

 

Yes. However, he initially takes the defense of the Imperium upon himself in Dorn's absence. Which is not the appropriate course of action in the circumstances.

 

So what is the appropriate course of action, let the Imperium crumble while someone gets Dorn to return to Terra and argue semantics with him?

 

Really? How about the Primarchs who didn't turn, even when it would have been a really, really good idea?

Dorn held the dying Emperor in his arms. Guilliman doesn't get to question his loyalty.

 

That doesn’t matter, general public opinion and faith in the Space Marines has been shaken to the core. Men whose loyalty had been previously beyond question had turned traitor. Horus who had saved the Emperor’s life during the Crusade, then tried to kill him. No one was above reproach, even Guilliman, whose reforms broke the huge power base he built in the aftermath of the Siege on Terra.

[jb85]

Alternately, it's because Ultramarine players are in many cases drawn to the Ultramarines by their characterization as the best and their presentation as being flawless, and thus respond poorly to suggestions that Guilliman might have flaws?

 

Unlike the rest of the people, who love the inference that the Ultramrines are superior to their favourite Chapter and give Guilliman the benefit of the doubt and a fair hearing accordingly :D

 

That's Guilliman's interactions with others. Each of those encounters consists of him trying to tell others how to organize their militaries or conduct their campaigns, and each of them turns heated. Two of them end with Guilliman insulting someone because it's become clear that they're not going to agree. This suggests heavily that it's more about Guilliman being right than about trying to help others perform better. It also suggests that Guilliman deals with people in a fashion that results in them reacting hostilely - Horus had an argument with him. Horus. The guy who got along with Mortarion. Thus, we see two things: Guilliman believes he's right and forces it on others, and he does so in a fashion that makes them react badly.

 

Horus, the guy who pissed off the taciturn Corax so much that he removed himself from under his command.