Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[Octavulg]

Legatus:

When Alpharius would not bow to his experience and superiority, Guilliman "pointed out the thousands of victories and battle honors his Legion had won and told his coungest brother that he could never hope to compare."

I would take that as pointing out the consequence, i.e. not being able to compare in terms of victories and honors, to Alpharius's decision to not adopt the Codex doctrines.

 

I'd agree with your point if Guilliman had resorted to it during the debate proper. By resorting to it at the end, specifically when it becomes clear Alpharius isn't going to concede just because Guilliman's been fighting longer, and by addressing the statement to Alpharius, not to the legion and its methods of fighting, it becomes a clear attack on Alpharius himself. If it had the caveat "could not hope to compare fighting the way he did now", then I'd agree with you. But it doesn't. It's a flat out "you'll never be as good as me". And that's a petty personal attack.

 

Keep in mind, you're assuming that the debate was heated only from Alpharius' side - you're giving Guilliman the benefit of the doubt here, and I'm not sure it's justified.

 

That will certainly occur. I would love to claim that it is not the case with me, but I may not be the best judge of that. Personally, I see a lot of forced and biased interpretations on the side of his critics.

 

I'm pretty sure it's not with you, but I honestly can't say. ;) I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

The Codex is not just army size regulations and Chapter organisation. There are accounts of famous battles, essays on tactical markings, heraldry, training methods. I do think that most of those elements would probably not appear as or be mistaken for rules that had to be obeyed. That does not stop a lot of Chapters from taking all the elements of the Codex as a holy text and following it to the letter, of course.

 

True. I'm just saying that presenting the whole thing along with a bunch of other completely 100% mandatory rules at best mixes the message.

 

I mean, if some bits are 100% mandatory and the rest are optional, why have them in the same book, and why present them at the same time?

 

It only makes sense to do it this way if you expect people to abide by at least some of the other dictates in the rest of the book. Otherwise, it makes a lot more sense to have the Codex Astartes and the Tactica Astartes.

 

I though "having a word with someone" would usually refer to a serious talk about an issue.

 

"have a word with" is distinct from "have words with".

 

See here.

 

Look, I just speak it, alright? If I were guessing, I'd say that having a word with someone implies you got it over quickly, and thus the discussion was friendly. Words implies that it went back and forth, and thus was unfriendly.

 

When Guilliman was having a word with Horus, Horus pacified him by conceding that Guilliman was better at these sort of things. Regardles of the fact that Horus might just have said that to get Guilliman off his back, Guilliman was right in this instance, as Horus's rashness was causing problems with further rebellions flaring up on some planets as soon as the Luna Wolves had left.

 

The fact that the term "pacified" is used in the description of how Horus calmed Guilliman does not speak well for Guilliman's level-headedness.

 

The Alpha Legion instance was just a discussion about optimal doctrines, with no particular thing at stake. In both the instance with Alpharius as well as the instance with Dorn the case can be made that it was them who were emotional and let things get out of hand, and not so much Guilliman's, based on Alpharius's and Dorn's actions around that time. In the instance with Horus, the two had a professional discussion. Guilliman had a very "spartan" upbringing, with effort and duty being important values, so it is conceivable that he was strict about his own and his brothers' profession, and was not lenient toward some more personal quirks. Horus was able to cope with that. Dorn would probably have been as well, had teh circumstances been different.

 

Dude. He calls Dorn a heretic and traitor and takes a cheap shot at Alpharius. I'm sorry. At best, he looks petty. And the fact that Horus had to "pacify" him tells you all you need to know about his ability to remain calm and collected.

 

You might also note he was raised as a prince, and was used to being in charge of everything and superior to everyone. That might also have an influence on his personality, no?

 

At least the Index Astartes "Codex Astartes" still mentions the High Lords of Terra. It is on page 12 in the first IA volume, under "The Codex Astartes". Though it does not outright states that Guilliman had been one of the first High Lords (the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines did), it still states that it was one of "their" most important accomplishments to reorganise the Imperium's armed forces, and that this task was almost single-handedly undertaken by Roboute Guilliman.

 

A fair point, but we don't know what he was supposed to do and how far it was supposed to go.

 

I do think "inviting censure from many quarters" and Horus being the only one to openly praise his performance is intended to show that there was justified criticism.

 

True. On the other hand, you can criticize almost any military victory in the past few centuries.

 

It was intended as an all encompassing work of reference.

 

Then Guilliman should know better than to try and have it be a work of reference and a rulebook at the same time. It confuses the issue.

 

I would describe Guilliman as "pragmatic". Horus was able to cope with that. Dorn would probably have been as well, had he not suffered the loss of his father. Alpharius was probably not as well attuned for that kind of mannerism.

 

Legatus? Please just accept that, in the finest tradition of both Ancient Romans and Ancient Greeks, Roboute Guilliman was a jerk. A big one.

 

Pragmatic people just shrug when people disagree and point out that hey, they're right, and eventually their opponent will need to deal with that. They don't call people heretics, they don't tell people they'll never be able to compare, and they don't have to be "pacified".

[Tutteman]

A point on Gulliman, sure he may have been arogant in a way, but most of the time he was right?! There was a guy at my old school who was a genius and knew it, and let everyone else know it. But he was normally right so...

 

Of course Gulliman could be seen as condescending and arrogant, but if all the Primarchs were all perfect it would be a bit boring. Gulliman is assured he is right, Dorn is self critical, Lion has poor people skills, Ferrus is a hothead at the critical moment, Alpharius had an inferority complex, Night Haunter was...sadistical, Fulgrim was obsessed with perfection (an unobtainable), so on and so forth, and Gulliman's flaw was he was used to being right, so much he almost got accustomed to being right.

 

And as for Legion "senority"...Horus comments at one point that the Lion thought he should have been Warmaster due to his legion being 1st...Personally (and I think from Horus' point of view) this is rather like a book claiming it is more important because it's Dewey Decimal number is lower... :wallbash: (random example I know)

 

As for assuming command, he probably saw it as his duty and responsiblity as the only one really capable with Dorn in mourning, Corax playing scientist, Lion having a personal civil war, Russ not being the best...diplomat shall we say ;) , Khan was possible, Vulkan (would be a choice but busy preparing for his galatical sized "getting warmer, warmer...no freezing"), Ferrus...well he was dead, Sang...ditto, which leaves the organisational genius?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Yet the Vengeful Spirit has quite an extensive library on board. While the tests may not date back to the days of Sun Tzu, the Imperium of the 31st Millennium likely has a great deal of historical military texts available to it. At any rate the quote is more of a description of the Codex being a living document which has evolved and been added to in the ten millennium since the Hersey.

 

I'm sure I could build an extensive library from important texts just from the 20th Century. Having a big library does not imply having texts from many centuries ago.

 

There is no evidence that they are self-appointed. The Council of Terra still had authority in the aftermath of the Siege. The Council is made up of the Fabricator General (Kane), the Chief Custodian (Valdor), the Head of the Divisio Astra Teepathica, and the Leader of the Imperial Administration (Malcador). Granted Malcador is dead and the fate of Valdor is unknown after Prospero, however you would assume both had deputies in place. As a result there is nothing to suggest that the Council was not in a position to grant its authority to the High Lords of Terra.

 

All those positions have places in the High Lords. If they weren't self-appointed, who appointed them?

 

Guilliman never insinuates that Dorn is disloyal

 

He calls him a heretic (in a pre-Ministorum era too - an oversight on the part of the author?). Whichever way you look at it (and you are right about public perception of the Space Marines), there are easier ways to break the news to your brother, who short of being killed is probably the most deeply affected of all the Primarchs by the events of the Heresy.

 

Nothing is mentioned of it. You'll note that often, where a few simple words could clear this up and make Guilliman look a lot less power-hungry, there is nothing.

Actually that's really your opinion. There is nothing that outright states that Guilliman did anything but for the best intentions of the Imperium.

 

There's nothing that outright states that Guilliman acted for the best interests of the Imperium either. This is all our opinions.

I think that's Octavulg's point - if there was, things would be much clearer and we would have nothing to debate.

 

If Dorn was Commander in Chief then he should have been present at those highest councils. In any case most lilkely he should have been contacted. since he was not present and been repeatedly mentioned as being obessed with vengance it's safe to say Dorn did not really use his communications much.

 

You're right, at least in part. That is one of the two possible explanations. The other is that he wasn't contacted at all. Depending on where you stand, your opinion will differ as to which is most likely - there's no direct evidence either way. If there is direct evidence, please just quote it and we can shut this little side debate down.

 

That I myself consider the entire Alpha legion story to be pretty obvious propaganda. Come on, a superhuman miltiary general who has fought on hundreds of battlefields does not know insurgency? Please.

 

Very good point. A GW author with little military experience, on the other hand . . .

 

Oh, no, the answer is simple. Most Black Library authors are not soldiers or have not researched miltiary tactics. Abnett himself notes this somewhat in a Gaunt's Ghosts introduction.

 

Gree sums it up best.

 

*

 

What's wrong with that? I don't know if you know this or not, but generals and other nations have borrowed and stole from each other all throught history. If an idea works you take it. It's how war has always worked. Unless you are trying to tell he Scipo Africanus and Erwin Rommel were idiots?

 

If you're going to put it to practical use, that's fine. If you intend to put it in an academic work, present it academically and then claim the idea as your own, that's plagiarism. Interestingly enough, neither of your examples work for the academic scenario. Scipio Africanus lived before a cohesive referencing system was adopted (and in any case left no written works), and Rommel's Infantry Attacks is a first-hand account anyway. It is worth looking at the controversy surrounding Liddell-Hart and Blitzkrieg though.

 

The BFG source mentions the proposal that Marines should not have any fleet as "one of the most extreme opinions on offer", and Corax was one of many that protested against that proposal. I don't think we can conclude that it would have ended up in the Codex without Corax's protest.

 

If it's a collaborative project, then surely it would have if it had encountered no opposition. Assuming it is a part-collaborative project, Guilliman must have the power of veto for that not to go in the Codex if it encounters no opposition.

 

Is Guilliman required to command the Ultramarines at all time in the field? Surely there are officers who could cooperate with the Fists.

 

What? Gree, you're contradicting yourself:

 

Dorn's not abandoned any of his duties. You could argue that he's abandoned one of his moral responsibilities, but he's not shirking his legal duty. He's a war leader, not a bureaucrat.

I would. a commander in chief does not lead from the front lines. In any case he effectivly losthis position.

 

So it's OK for Guilliman to lead for the front whilst being Commander-in-Chief (I'll use your word for now), but it's not OK if it's Dorn?

 

In addition Jonson being head of the first legion provides him with no additional authority or title.

He's the head of the most senior legion.

 

Are the DA senior at this point? I can't remember in which order the Primarchs were found in off the top of my head.

 

It's possible that all the remaining Primarchs were technically High Lords - it does say there were twelve of them, and that they were the most powerful men in the Imperium, and there's a lot of empty space in the roster.

 

I remember reading somewhere that the Primarchs still retain the right to speak in the High Lords council chamber. I don't know the source, but if anyone knows it it might provide the answer to this.

 

So........you agree with me? Cool.

 

Personally I think you two are arguing at cross-purposes. You think he's saying that the DA had the biggest Legion overall, and are correctly (as far as I can see) arguing against that. He thinks you're arguing against the idea that the DA at a specific moment had more troops than the Ultramarines, and is correctly (again, as far as I can see) rebutting that.

 

A point on Gulliman, sure he may have been arogant in a way, but most of the time he was right?! There was a guy at my old school who was a genius and knew it, and let everyone else know it. But he was normally right so...

 

That sounds remarkably like the Emperor's Children. Particularly the part where the Captains discuss their losses after the first assault on the Laer.

[Gree]

If you're going to put it to practical use, that's fine. If you intend to put it in an academic work, present it academically and then claim the idea as your own, that's plagiarism. Interestingly enough, neither of your examples work for the academic scenario. Scipio Africanus lived before a cohesive referencing system was adopted (and in any case left no written works), and Rommel's Infantry Attacks is a first-hand account anyway. It is worth looking at the controversy surrounding Liddell-Hart and Blitzkrieg though.

 

But it was put to practical use. The Codex Astartes was, funnily enough, intended to be used in warfare. It's not like Guilliman was writing the Codex as his college paper and decided to steal his brother's idea.

 

What? Gree, you're contradicting yourself:

 

Dorn's not abandoned any of his duties. You could argue that he's abandoned one of his moral responsibilities, but he's not shirking his legal duty. He's a war leader, not a bureaucrat.

I would. a commander in chief does not lead from the front lines. In any case he effectivly losthis position.

 

So it's OK for Guilliman to lead for the front whilst being Commander-in-Chief (I'll use your word for now), but it's not OK if it's Dorn?

 

No, I don't really believe Guiliman spent much time at the front lines if he was busy or Terra, or he finished up with the codex then he went to the front lines after he secured his duties on Terra first. At any rate I was questioning why Guilliman must be the only one, surely there where no Ultramarine officers that could lead the legion while Guilliman wrote the Codex and did his reforms?

 

Is that what you meant? I don't understand your point.

[jb85]

All those positions have places in the High Lords. If they weren't self-appointed, who appointed them?

 

I think the original argument was that there was concern that Guilliman was self appointed. The Council of Terra still has authority in the aftermath of the Siege of the Imperial Palace. It uses this authority to reform itself, increasing its membership in the process, forming the High Lords of Terra (which if 2nd fluff has not been directly contradicted, Guilliman is appointed to). I don't see where the concern here is, the body may have been self appointed but it had the legal and moral authority to do so. It is also worth nothing that membership increased from 5 to 12, essentially diluting the power that they had previously held, whilst providing most key components of the Imperium with representation in the body. And again there is nothing to suggest that Dorn or any other Primarchs has a problem with the formation of this new governing body (or its composition) for the Imperium.

[Legatus]

I'd agree with your point if Guilliman had resorted to it during the debate proper. By resorting to it at the end, specifically when it becomes clear Alpharius isn't going to concede just because Guilliman's been fighting longer, and by addressing the statement to Alpharius, not to the legion and its methods of fighting, it becomes a clear attack on Alpharius himself. If it had the caveat "could not hope to compare fighting the way he did now", then I'd agree with you. But it doesn't. It's a flat out "you'll never be as good as me". And that's a petty personal attack.

Well, Guilliman does use that "could never hope to compare" in relation to the number of victories and battle honors won by his own Legion. And since he says that at the end of a heated debate and as a result of Alpharius not agreeing with his doctrine, I thought the connection was obvious. It was not some random character attack Guilliman just pulled out of nowhere, but a final statement on the topic they had just fruitlessly debated.

 

 

True. I'm just saying that presenting the whole thing along with a bunch of other completely 100% mandatory rules at best mixes the message.

 

I mean, if some bits are 100% mandatory and the rest are optional, why have them in the same book, and why present them at the same time?

 

It only makes sense to do it this way if you expect people to abide by at least some of the other dictates in the rest of the book. Otherwise, it makes a lot more sense to have the Codex Astartes and the Tactica Astartes.

Hm, I think I am starting to see what you mean now. Guilliman could have published his treatise at an earlier or later point, but did so in a single tome with the regulations after the scouring. But I think that was because he intended his work to include all the aspects, and not have one book of rules and one book of guides. There are a few conflicting statements in the fluff IIRC. Some sources tell it as if the regulations were decided and became essentially "the Codex", which then also was amended with all the guides, while other sources say that Guilliman had already been working on "the Codex" for a while, and the new regulations that were the result of the Heresy were then included in it.

I suspect GW did not even had any real authorial intention one way or the others. They merely introduced this "great book on everything" and attributed it mainly to Guilliman. I don't think they have actually put any thought in to how exactly it came to be and include all the elements it has.

 

 

"have a word with" is distinct from "have words with".

 

See here.

 

Look, I just speak it, alright? If I were guessing, I'd say that having a word with someone implies you got it over quickly, and thus the discussion was friendly. Words implies that it went back and forth, and thus was unfriendly.

I see. I must confess I did not know that particular phrase. You never stop learning I guess. It seems Guilliman was a bit more angered when he confronted Horus than I originaly thought. But reading the account given in the Index Astartes Luna Wolves, it is hard to blame him.

 

"The Ultramarines and the Iron Warriors, who were fighting alongside Horus's Legion at this time, were repeatedly left to mop up any final pockets of resistance and established garrisons on the conquered worlds. The Luna Wolves' officiers apparently refused point blanc to assign any troops to these duties, insisting that every man was required for the ongoing crusade."

 

I mean, Perturabo on the other hand went rogue because of exactly these kind of things. :wallbash: Corax had a few such issues with Horus as well.

 

 

You might also note he was raised as a prince, and was used to being in charge of everything and superior to everyone. That might also have an influence on his personality, no?

Ah, but his foster father was one of those "noble philosopher kings" one only reads about in fairy tales. ;) And Guilliman apparently was a good pupil.

 

 

Legatus? Please just accept that, in the finest tradition of both Ancient Romans and Ancient Greeks, Roboute Guilliman was a jerk. A big one.

 

Pragmatic people just shrug when people disagree and point out that hey, they're right, and eventually their opponent will need to deal with that. They don't call people heretics, they don't tell people they'll never be able to compare, and they don't have to be "pacified".

I guess my imagination of how Guilliman would conduct himself in those encounters is influenced mostly by the descriptions of his most famous achievements. He is most known for his outstanding achievements as an administrator (Ultramar), a scholar (Codex), and an efficient tactician and logistician (most liberated worlds, fewest casualties). I guess that is why I usually imagine his mannerism to be factual and pragmatic.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Ah, but his foster father was one of those "noble philosopher kings" one only reads about in fairy tales. :wallbash: And Guilliman apparently was a good pupil.

 

I think you're onto something here. Guilliman does tend to act like a philosopher-king, right down to the flaws that manifest when you put theories into practice.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

this is getting funny now.

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

"have a word with" is distinct from "have words with".

 

See here.

 

Look, I just speak it, alright? If I were guessing, I'd say that having a word with someone implies you got it over quickly, and thus the discussion was friendly. Words implies that it went back and forth, and thus was unfriendly.

I see. I must confess I did not know that particular phrase. You never stop learning I guess. It seems Guilliman was a bit more angered when he confronted Horus than I originaly thought. But reading the account given in the Index Astartes Luna Wolves, it is hard to blame him.

 

 

As an Englishmen I can say there is a difference between the two. "I'll have words with Bob" is that there will be a verbal showdown. "I'll be having a word with Bob" is less intense, it can still be about something serious but there is no showdown expected.

 

Sometimes I feel compassion towards English as a Second Language speakers ~ if we get our wires crossed then what hope do they have? :)

[Legatus]

Well, I am one of those not primary english speakers...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

this is getting funny now.

 

True. We've managed to have a six-page discussion on Guilliman and the Ultramarines without any Ultra-hate(rs) appearing, it's absurd. :)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Well, I am one of those not primary english speakers...

 

You right very cohesive arguements, I wouldn't have known.

 

this is getting funny now.

 

True. We've managed to have a six-page discussion on Guilliman and the Ultramarines without any Ultra-hate(rs) appearing, it's absurd. :P

 

Ultrahate is illogical. You don't like GWs banner and perhaps Mary Sue Chapter (I just learnt what Mary Sue means ~ the author loves his character so much that in presenting said character, he annoys readers and turns them off that character due to his enthusiasm) then you having that opinion is fine. Having a go at UM players because of that dislike = :)

 

I remember my brother coming back from his local gaming club, at a time when the hobby didn't especially appeal to me, and he laughed as he told of UM being called Smurfs. I said why Smurfs? He said because they're blue. I think my response was That is the most stupid thing I have ever heard.

 

Now it probably wasn't and definitely isn't the most stupid thing I have ever heard but you get my point....

[Octavulg]

Personally, I do hate Ultra fanboys.

 

However, since I also hate Blood Angel fanboys, Black Templar fanboys, Chaos fanboys, Dark Angel fanboys, Space Wolf fanboys...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

this is getting funny now.

 

True. We've managed to have a six-page discussion on Guilliman and the Ultramarines without any Ultra-hate(rs) appearing, it's absurd. :)

 

No, its SHOCKING that we dont have any "real" Ultra-hate(rs) appearing.

 

whats funny, to me, is that there is a ongoing debate with more direct source quotes than i used in many college papers.

 

WLK

[c-wrex]

I think it goes to show the quality of the fanbase for the game that serious discussion can be held regarding such fictional events.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think it goes to show the quality of the fanbase for the game that serious discussion can be held regarding such fictional events.

 

true, but i am so looking for "kewl" or "leet" to be thrown around...thats when i give up.

 

WLK

[c-wrex]

Let's start our own board, Kieran! The "Space Wolf and Salamander Kickass Awesome Board"!!

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

can we make fun of other Marines?

 

WLK

[c-wrex]

can we make fun of other Marines?

 

WLK

 

 

The mission would be to make fun of all non werewolf/dragon marines out there!

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

can we make fun of other Marines?

 

WLK

 

 

The mission would be to make fun of all non werewolf/dragon marines out there!

 

I am so freakin there! :whistling:

i got alot of practice from the local club, so i am ready and roaring to go.

 

WLK, bringing dignity down post by post.

[c-wrex]

Sweetness!!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I think it goes to show the quality of the fanbase for the game that serious discussion can be held regarding such fictional events.

 

true, but i am so looking for "kewl" or "leet" to be thrown around...thats when i give up.

 

WLK

*thump of sick sub-woofas pumpin' out da base!*

U da bom Kiro!

C'mon Pa letz rip dis plays up dont b so oldskool or u = failz, coz u missin owt on mad ligwinstisizms ma dood!

 

:whistling: LEET IS MY SPEEK :P

 

Kurta-c of da 4tK playuz from BoLS for da win!

:D

 

*See how confusing my typing is at the moment? We would have had the Guilliman argument over in 2 pages max. with 3leet speek

 

** I did enjoy myself writing this post, even if my IQ temporarily dipped....

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

you are a horrible, horrible person.

 

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

you are a horrible, horrible person.

 

 

WLK

:P :P :D

[Cpt. Lacerus]

...:lol: just happened... :lol:

P.S. Ultras RULEZ!!!