Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[c-wrex]

Also, How About Ferrus Manus having to rely on Fulgrim's lot to defeat the (I think it was called...) Diasporex? A primarch and his entire legion couldn't solve something the EC did with a few captains and a condescending tone from Fulgrim...? That's kind of weak. Also, on the Iron Hands being bitter that the Salamanders and Raven Guard attempted a tactical withdrawal from an obviously suicidal venture, and keeping it for ten millenia. That's like being mad at your friends for not robbing that bank with you in the 1850's. What made Ferrus Manus, an obvious hothead, suitable to lead that venture anyway?

[Sir Caverstein]

I'm pretty certain that what you're referring to is a sense of duty, Sir Caverstein. Let's be fair, 'honour' isn't really a concept that actually fits with war: it's an artificial construct superimposed over conflict that only a small section of the combatants both observe and have access to. War is about killing, no matter how much it is referred to otherwise.

 

Besides, Magnus is the one who acted dishonourably, if anything. He practised an outlawed science, and when he was told not to, he continued it behind the backs of the authorities above and around him.

Nein Magnus acted like a real hero with a sense of sacrfice and honor he was the one betrayed

Honour doesn´t completely fits war but Russ was a vague really vague and careless general. If you are a soldier then obeying orders makes you something I respect but if you are a general taking orders so readily makes you stupid. That´s why to my eyes magnus and Angron are heroes and Russ a deception

 

"War is cruelty, the crueler it is, the quicker it's over." - Warmaster Horus

 

"Honour is a word Plutocrats use when they want someone killed" - Committeewoman Cordelia Ransom (Honor Harrington)

 

Russ did not abaddon his duty or his honour, he was decieved by Horus into thinking the worst and he was predisposed to hate magiks. And anyway Russ was given the orders from a legal superior to eliminate Magnus and he's hardly going to com his brother first to let him know he's coming. War is brutal and Russ realised that the best way to take out prospero would be to hit it with totla surprise and destroy the Thousand Sons before they could fight back. And sure the Thousand Sons were trying to help, but Magnus' first and prime aim was justifying his use of forbidden arts.

 

Ultras were deliberately eliminated from the fight due to their sheer size and the fact that they would have made a big difference. Horus eliminated as many legions from the fight as he could via using his warmaster authority or by tricks like Istvaan V.

 

BACK onto topic :no:

I wouldn't say any legion disappointed me, for they all had their parts to play in the greater story, I cannot say i looked at any legions actions and went, WHAT!? Why? Idiots :D

 

In war you parlamentate before sending a war against some man that haven´t been branded officialy by the emperor. What is Russ an eartheater. He as obviously learned nothing from Tsung Tsung that shows me the level of inteligency in Russ. Also Russ army is to deorganized(they don´t even know their numbers).

I really value order that´s why the Black Legion and Blood Angels dissapoint me. Asingle death and they brek in panic that was war and in war people die the best you can do is move forward or their sacrifice would be in vain. That´s why Alpha Legion and Ultras epitomize excellence both their primarchs were dead and instead of breaking they pussed forward.

I'm kind of disappointed by Horus and his boys. Come on, you've got the emperor penned in his fort, witht three whole legions, the rest are scattered hither and yon, and you decide to take all of your six legions and Titans and traitors and demons and giant spaceships with tons of huge guns...and then try to knock down the front door? Really? No teleports or mass landings inside the palace walls? Really?? From the WARMASTER? They deserved that loss.

Pretty much yes But remenber you can go from general to emperor but not from emperor to general the itsvan 5 massacre simply made him overconfident and overconidence costed both Cesar Napo and you know who their empires. But that doesn´t impress me

[Rain]

Emperor's Children because of their portrayal in Fulgrim. They went from brilliant sociopaths a la Hannibal Lecter to annoying androgynous weasels a la Marylin Manson. As for Perturabo "skulking" it's called following one's orders. I like how loyalist primarchs get commended for "loyalty" while Perturabo is derided for "skulking". Maybe if Dorn spent more time "brooding like an emo" he could construct a fortress that the Iron Warriors couldn't actually breach, what with the nigh unlimited labor and resources he was given and all.

 

On the other hand, Alpha Legion probably got the biggest bump in the series, due to Legion being easily the best of the books.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Sir Cav: Magnus was shown the dangers of the warp from the Emperor of Mankind. he was arrogant or stupid enough to disregard this, and his promise to not delve deeper in his practices. all from Collected Visions.

this makes his betrayal both sad, cause he knew what he was getting into, and downright wrong, for he spat on his oath to the Emperor of Mankind.

 

so a real hero for you ignores his orders, his promises, and betrays his brothers???

 

and do you actually read any SW fluff, or just comment blindly? While the Great Companies arent organized in the Codex Astartes, they arent mobs of people blindly running about.

 

but hey, just kieep posting your obvious Russ hating. you cant spell infamous with famous.

 

@Rain: I agree with the Perturabo comment. WHile i dont agree with all of him, i also notice how people hate on Perturabo and give Dorn a pass...

 

WLK

[Sir Caverstein]

@Sir Cav: Magnus was shown the dangers of the warp from the Emperor of Mankind. he was arrogant or stupid enough to disregard this, and his promise to not delve deeper in his practices. all from Collected Visions.

this makes his betrayal both sad, cause he knew what he was getting into, and downright wrong, for he spat on his oath to the Emperor of Mankind.

 

so a real hero for you ignores his orders, his promises, and betrays his brothers???

 

and do you actually read any SW fluff, or just comment blindly? While the Great Companies arent organized in the Codex Astartes, they arent mobs of people blindly running about.

 

but hey, just kieep posting your obvious Russ hating. you cant spell infamous with famous.

No Magnus was a hero he endangered his life to save the imperium even if that mean overiding his promises for the good of mankind that´s the kind of primarchs we need

And believe me I spent a year reading all the fluff that I could get from my country(Argentina) and I do respect and love them but that unjustified and coward attack berages me

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Sir Cav: Magnus was shown the dangers of the warp from the Emperor of Mankind. he was arrogant or stupid enough to disregard this, and his promise to not delve deeper in his practices. all from Collected Visions.

this makes his betrayal both sad, cause he knew what he was getting into, and downright wrong, for he spat on his oath to the Emperor of Mankind.

 

so a real hero for you ignores his orders, his promises, and betrays his brothers???

 

and do you actually read any SW fluff, or just comment blindly? While the Great Companies arent organized in the Codex Astartes, they arent mobs of people blindly running about.

 

but hey, just kieep posting your obvious Russ hating. you cant spell infamous with famous.

No Magnus was a hero he endangered his life to save the imperium even if that mean overiding his promises for the good of mankind that´s the kind of primarchs we need

And believe me I spent a year reading all the fluff that I could get from my country(Argentina) and I do respect and love them but that unjustified and coward attack berages me

 

well, at this point, if you have read all the fluff you can and still come at this result then further debate in pointless

 

edit: okay i lied. i posted more about magnus's betrayal a little bit down. i hope to not have to comment on russ anyone to not appear as a "fanboi". when it comes to fluff and background i try to be as fair-minded as possible.

 

WLK

[Sir Caverstein]

well, at this point, if you have read all the fluff you can and still come at this result then further debate in pointless.

 

WLK

Farewell this thread is to speak about dissapointments not space wolves

[The Emperor's Champion]

Magnus was a tragic hero. Forced to either make a deal with the Devil to warn his father and the Imperium of an unimaginable impending threat, or stand idle while all they had worked towards was torn asunder by his own traitorous kin. Magnus chose the more heroic of two horrible paths and was repayed for it with destruction. Had Magnus known what his warning would do to the Throne he might've selected a different path, but knowing only that he himself was in danger of incurring The Emperor's wrath for ignoring a new law, Magnus did the right thing.

[Rain]

Magnus's betrayal was a misunderstanding, the fact that the Emperor sent a superstitious (against psykers) legion to rein them in, combined with Horus's amended orders led them to be forced to turn. Sure sorcery was forbidden, but he thought it was a lesser evil compared to allowing the Imperium to be caught unaware. Sure there was a problem in his reasoning as sorcery is a part of, and controlled by, Chaos but he probably didn't know that.

 

This actually brings up an interesting question as to how loyal primarchs like Magnus and Mortarion really are to Chaos. In fact, the very reason Typhus travels on his own and has his own cult is that he feels that Mortarion is too "sentimental" and that his heart is not truly in serving Nurgle by spreading disease. A similar argument can probably be made for Magnus as he wanted to resist the mutation of his legion even though change is a trademark of Tzeentch.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I weirdly see Tzeentch as the least evil, most chaotic and paradoxically also the most lawful of the Chaos Gods.

He's all about knowledge and change, less about death, murder and depravity. Change and Chaos go hand in hand, but since to Tzeentch change is the law and change is controlled...it's also quite lawful in his hands....

That said, I sorta think that Magnus and the Thousand Sons probably ended up getting along with him fairly well.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Upon meeting Magnus, the Emperor cautioned him about the dangers of sorcery and the nature of the warp. The Emperor realised that Magnus was very powerful. Possibly feeling it was more dangerous for Magnus to remain ignorant of the secrets of the warp than it was for him to know them, the Emperor showed him the truth.

Magnus feigned shock and horror at what the Emperor revealed to him He immediately agreed to renounce sorcery and re-educate the peoples of Prospero. But Magnus secretly dismissed the Emperor's warnings. He had already peered into the warp with his one great eye and was obsessed with the power and beauty it promised him. page 91 of Horus Heresy: Collected Visions

 

there is no mis-understanding. Magnus was told to stop. He didnt. He was given a simple order from his "father", direct military superior, and leader of mankind. He ignored it out of arrogance and the promise of power. He paid the price.

 

The psychic defenses of the Emperor's Palace on Terra had been breached by a daemonic conjuration of unprecedented power...The Emperor flew into a terrible rage, appearing to ignore the content of Magnus's message. He was consumed with anger that Magnus should so flagerantly have disobeyed his orders to renounce sorcery and psychics. page 98 of Horus Heresy: Collected Visions

 

now this sucks, as before i read this i actually liked Magnus and his Sons, as they were seemingly tragic heroes, horribly betrayed and thrust into their future roles. Instead, he is a spoiled kid who ignored the advice of one who has lived thousands of years, has more psychic power and practice then he. So if one legion disapointed anybody, it should be Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

 

WLK

[The Emperor's Champion]

That partially contradicts other accounts of the events in question. For one thing, psychics were NOT banned, only sorcery. Read the Index Astartes III account. Since it is the studio material version of events IT is the canon one. Clearly Magnus WAS a tragic hero.

[atin]

the wolves for just giving in to there feelings, and orders of horus.. ( but I still wait for the HH books to cover it.. to really make a stand on this one )

death gaurd: the same reason as Brother Captain Kezef

 

atin

 

so the Wolves are disapointing for doing as they were ordered by the Emperor of Mankind (ordered to go fetch magnus), and the Warmaster (altered orders from fetch to break into tiny tiny pieces)?

if you give somebody a command that they follow and your disapointed, maybe you arent the best to give commands or judge their actions.

 

WLK

 

if you follow your orders to the letter yeah that is good for a soldier, but russ is/was an primarch.

I had hoped russ had some brains of him self. and question the order " bring me magnus head on a plate." dispite his dislike towards psykers..

that is just not me, so here I go with my disapointment dispite being a space wolf player.

( damn sorry for the grammer, it's still early here. )

 

atin

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

That partially contradicts other accounts of the events in question. For one thing, psychics were NOT banned, only sorcery. Read the Index Astartes III account. Since it is the studio material version of events IT is the canon one. Clearly Magnus WAS a tragic hero.

 

and the collected visions is the official black library, rather then the amazing wrong and retconned index astartes series...

 

i own the entire IA series. was nice before it was retconned by both codex releases and black library.

 

@atin: there was no need to question the ordrs, came from the emperor of mankind, who also sent along adeptus custodes and sisters of silence to bring down magnus. there was no need to question the actions of the oathbreaker.

 

WLK

[Phoebus]

I will also echo my disappointment towards the Emperors Children. An excellent legion brought low by a foolish Primarch.

He wasn't foolish. He was psychically manipulated and finally possessed. Nothing he does

after receiving that particular sword

is truly his action. Fulgrim is easily the least treacherous out of all the Primarchs.

 

Luna Wolves, the chosen legion pretty much and throwing it all away through willingly trusting the Word Bearers.

They're not unique in this. The concept of the Chaplain was accepted in other Legions as well. Besides, why wouldn't they trust the Word Bearers? Isn't this a little hindsight 20-20?

 

Iron Warriors. Sulking for being used as a garrison legion. All Perturabo had to do was stand up for what he wanted for his legion, but never did. Instead brooded like an emo and let Chaos whisper to him.

Agreed. Or, hey, instead of standing up for something, why not make lemonade out of lemons and take a page out of Roboute Guilliman's book? One man's "garrison duty" is another man's "giant Legion recruitment drive". :)

 

To call honor a joke is only to show that you have no understanding of it.

 

No particular order:

Dark Angels for being incapable of even standing against or falling to Chaos as a team.

I'm not sure about this. The vague legends of past fluff made it look as if the Legion was split in half between the Lion and Luther. Following the events of "Fallen Angels" we know that this wasn't the case.

 

 

The Dark Angels Legion stayed loyal to their Primarch to a man, with the exception of Luther and the roughly five hundred Astartes who the Lion sent back to Caliban with him. At one point Luther simply stops sending recruits to the Legion, and keeps them for his own ends. Those aren't Dark Angels. They are Astartes, but they clearly don't see themselves as either part of the Legion or as warriors of the Emperor.

 

 

I guess if you want to be technical, it fits. But the events of the novel show that there was far more going on than meets the eye, and that it wasn't anything that had to do with the Legion itself, inherently.

 

Cheers,

P.

[Brother Captain Alaric]

Yeah, Magnus is a tragic hero, no argument there, but his decisions were his own and he paid for his mistakes. He didn't listen to the greatest psyker to ever live, going about with his dangerous studies. He then played into the hands of Chaos, sending a message that almost lead to the destruction of the Imperial Palace through Daemonic influence. Russ was sent to bring Magnus to the Emperor originally, but Horus then told him that Magnus had betrayed the Emperor and needed to be swiftly diced up into dog food. Russ what he believed to be his lords will, and attacked Magnus. The cyclops doomed his legion by willingly siding with the forces his father had warned him against in the first place. Now, because of his foolish mistake, the Thousand Sons are nothing more than automatons than do the will of Chaos.

 

To me, the Emperors Children screwed up the most. They were truly on the way to becoming the Emperors perfect subjects, but then Fulgrim came under the influence of a Slaaneshi Daemon. His legion swiftly fell, the corrupting influence of Slaanesh turning them into pleasure crazed fanatics. It was only until Fulgrim killed Ferrus that he came to his senses, realizing the horror he had helped unleash unto the universe. And then his light was snuffed out, the Daemon possessing him. Its my hope that maybe Fulgrim will take back his mind during the end of times, but that would only happen if GW progressed the storyline (never gonna happen).

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

I really value order that´s why the Black Legion and Blood Angels dissapoint me. Asingle death and they brek in panic

 

Firstly, where does it say the Blood Angels broke in panic?

 

Secondly, Horus was at that point the avatar of the four Chaos Gods, the driving force behind the Heresy, as well as all the prestige being the Warmaster brought. I don't see how this can be 'big whup, people die in war.'

[antique_nova]

this is going off topic guys, the mods will be on this sooner or later. so as a member i just wanted to say if you wouldn't mind taking this to pm please?

now to go back on topic. Magnus's legion dissapointed me the most, because he could of done better to warn the emperor etc and not let Horus know that he knew Horus was going to betray the emperor etc.

thanks

antique_nova

[ForTheLion]

gna go a bit backwards here and say which primarchs did impress me during the heresy,so any1 who isnt mentioned ddnt impress me at all, but not necesarily disappointed, so in no specific order:

 

Russ: He actualy managed to beat thousand sons on prospero AND managed to survive the alpha legions attacks, and managed to get back to terra..so yeah..wow and gj wolfman!

 

Guilliman: kinda surprised he survived the battles at calth, so yeah big plus for papasmurf! (from that point onwards tho he was a huge disappointment)

 

Magnus: Did the wrong thing for the right reasons, loyal to the end, and its his loyalty that got him excomunicated, but yet he managed to survive

 

Fulgrim: Had a change of heart at istvaan massacre and went back to loyal, but was tricked byslanesh demon and imprisoned for ever.

 

Corax n Vulkan: actualy survived dropsite massacre :D

 

Lionel: not what he did , but thae fact that theres harly any record of his doings during the heresy is what impresses me. As a DA loyalist im gna assume he was always with the emperor and that leaves a lot of space for BL, but beside that he simply kicked ass when he got to caliban!

[randian]

This actually brings up an interesting question as to how loyal primarchs like Magnus and Mortarion really are to Chaos.

How loyal? Total, in my opinion. Mortarion could have left Nurgle's service after the Heresy, but instead he founded the Plague Planet, which was so pleasing to Tzeentch he elevated Mortarion into a surpassingly powerful Daemon Prince. Magnus accepted elevation to Daemon Prince soon after the sacking of Prospero. Neither sounds the least bit disloyal. Now that they're daemons, their loyalty is irrelevant, and status as eternal slaves of Chaos is assured. There is no known means of reversing daemonic ascension, and they have been so long accustomed to the deranging environment of the warp that I doubt they'd want to even if they could.

 

There is also the matter of what daemonic ascension does to the mind. It clearly enables the formerly mortal mind to withstand, and understand, the warp in ways impossible for the mortal mind. it would not surprise me if it included some loyalty programming as a side effect.

[Aqatone]

I will also echo my disappointment towards the Emperors Children. An excellent legion brought low by a foolish Primarch.

He wasn't foolish. He was psychically manipulated and finally possessed. Nothing he does

after receiving that particular sword

is truly his action. Fulgrim is easily the least treacherous out of all the Primarchs.

 

Luna Wolves, the chosen legion pretty much and throwing it all away through willingly trusting the Word Bearers.

They're not unique in this. The concept of the Chaplain was accepted in other Legions as well. Besides, why wouldn't they trust the Word Bearers? Isn't this a little hindsight 20-20?

 

Iron Warriors. Sulking for being used as a garrison legion. All Perturabo had to do was stand up for what he wanted for his legion, but never did. Instead brooded like an emo and let Chaos whisper to him.

Agreed. Or, hey, instead of standing up for something, why not make lemonade out of lemons and take a page out of Roboute Guilliman's book? One man's "garrison duty" is another man's "giant Legion recruitment drive". :D

 

To call honor a joke is only to show that you have no understanding of it.

 

No particular order:

Dark Angels for being incapable of even standing against or falling to Chaos as a team.

I'm not sure about this. The vague legends of past fluff made it look as if the Legion was split in half between the Lion and Luther. Following the events of "Fallen Angels" we know that this wasn't the case.

 

 

The Dark Angels Legion stayed loyal to their Primarch to a man, with the exception of Luther and the roughly five hundred Astartes who the Lion sent back to Caliban with him. At one point Luther simply stops sending recruits to the Legion, and keeps them for his own ends. Those aren't Dark Angels. They are Astartes, but they clearly don't see themselves as either part of the Legion or as warriors of the Emperor.

 

 

I guess if you want to be technical, it fits. But the events of the novel show that there was far more going on than meets the eye, and that it wasn't anything that had to do with the Legion itself, inherently.

 

Cheers,

P.

 

Maybe it was just how Fulgrim was written in the book, it just made me incredibly frustrated reading it. I wanted to slap him with a wet fish.

 

The method in which the Word Bearers put themselves about in claiming the big E to be a god and divine, would have made me extremely weary of them. But Horus didn't seem overly bothered by this. Which is a shame. If he had only booted Erebus out on his butt.

[Warp Angel]

I'm most disappointed by the primarch of the II Legion.

 

Idiot somehow managed to take part in the great crusades, but by the time of Horus' fall, he and one of his brothers had managed to be taken completely out of the picture. His legion wasn't even around to take sides.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I'm most disappointed by the primarch of the II Legion.

 

Idiot somehow managed to take part in the great crusades, but by the time of Horus' fall, he and one of his brothers had managed to be taken completely out of the picture. His legion wasn't even around to take sides.

 

AWESOME.

 

WLK

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

this is going off topic guys, the mods will be on this sooner or later. so as a member i just wanted to say if you wouldn't mind taking this to pm please?

 

I see nothing against discussing the reasons someone chooses to be disappointed in a particular Legion in a topic on that.

[Grey Mage]

Word Bearers- for being so deliberately perverse and unnaturally needy.

Death Gaurd- for going into Damnation with eyes wide open and, as far as I can tell no really reason other than Horus was a good friend.

Dark Angels- for slowing us down :sweat:.

Space Wolves- for letting ourselves be so used by horus.