Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[Legatus]

Hm, but Guilliman was there when Dorn was fightin in the Iron Cage, and according to the Index Astartes Iron Warriors Guilliman even pleaded with Dorn to join him in battle, which Dorn rejected. And after the Iron Cage the Imperial Fists reformed and did not fight for several years untill they re-emerged as a strict Codex Chapter. There is not much of a time frame between Guilliman presenting the Codex and the Imperial Fists ceasing all operations before having become a Codex Chapter, so it does not seem that they did a lot of lone crusading. Perhaps the reference of how Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice while others reshaped the Imperium simply means he had no interest at all in politics at that point and was only focusing in hunting down traitor forces. You know, never going to meetings, so missing all the developements...

[Lord_Caerolion]

Then he should have gone crazy before the Emp found him, not after. All the things he was lacking he had in bounty with brother primarchs and the Emp.

 

He was already unstable when the Emperor found him. And besides, he was a nihilist, because he had been shown the Heresy in his visions, as well as his death, visions he knew he couldn't affect the outcome of. His brothers either shunned him, or he shunned them, knowing what they were going to do. The Emperor seemed a distant figure to every Primarch apart from Horus, in the early years of the Crusade, as there were hundreds of expedition fleets, each demanding the Emperors presence (before Horus became Warmaster), and after that the Emperor vanished back on Terra, completely unreachable by any of the Primarchs.

I mean, you'd be awkward in conversations with someone if you knew that in a few years your Legions would be tearing each other apart, and that you couldn't stop it.

 

And if you read Lord of the Night, it becomes obvious that the Night Haunter did indeed try to start a bond with the Emperor, a bond that the Emperor refused to allow. Curze did everything the Emperor asked him to

even committing the sanctioned genocides

and how does the Emperor repay him? By

sending an assassin after Night Haunter attacked Dorn, trying to stop Night Haunter from releasing the truth

.

[Legatus]

You seem to assume that what Curze told Sahaal was the truth. If you are already familiar with Night Lords lore you might find it more likely that Acerbus is right in mocking Sahaal for believing in it.

[Phoebus]

The thing about it, though, is that we only have the Night Haunter's word to go for it.

 

Szo Sahaal claims the Night Lords' actions were sanctioned, but I'm curious as to whether that's him simply saying they weren't punished for what they did. The Emperor did condemn Angron for his own crimes against Humanity, after all. What we're lacking in Konrad Curze's case is context.

 

We know that there was a terrible sense of purpose behind the Great Crusade: an overriding need for Humanity to be united in order to prevent another Age of Strife from happening. To achieve this end, terrible violence was unleashed across the Galaxy. But this was always (well, almost, let's not forget Angron) preceeded with the offer of the olive branch. Szo Sahaal himself argued that the Night Lords did not pointlessly butcher people, but rather employed the tactics needed to ensure order and stability.

 

Did the Emperor let them get away with this? He did, and likely because he realized that eggs would need to be broken for this necessary galactic omelet. But arguing that he demanded them or somehow desired them flies in the face of both his condemnation of Angron and Rogal Dorn's own reaction to Curze's tactics in "The Dark King". Put plainly, what Konrad Curze was doing was not considered the status quo.

 

My take on things? Konrad Curze was a tragic, unstable individual. His sanity and ability to properly connect with people was compromised by his upbringing. Where his visions are concerned, I don't think he was unable to change anything; I think he was convinced that he wouldn't be able to, and thus didn't truly try. Where his relationship with the Emperor is concerned, I think the fact that the Emperor couldn't accept him as a son speaks volumes as to how supportive he was of his tactics.

 

You seem to assume that what Curze told Sahaal was the truth. If you are already familiar with Night Lords lore you might find it more likely that Acerbus is right in mocking Sahaal for believing in it.

All the same, I find Szo Sahaal to be a much more credible character. He speaks of his past, his Legion, and his Primarch with conviction and belief. Krieg Acerbus, on the other hand, is a willing agent of Chaos, and thus inherently untrustworthy.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, Legatus, I find the Night Haunter to be much more than the sociopathic butcher most people think of him as. Too often he's portrayed as another Angron, caring only about scaring stuff and then killing it with knives.

 

However, he seems to have been highly educated, whether on Nostromo or by the Imperium, and have an appreciation for scholastics, being that he was the only Primarch to write an autobiography. He cared for those he saw as under his protection, or otherwise would have taken the easier route to power on Nostromo and simply killed the reigning rulers and put himself in their place, and rallied the criminals under him. Instead, he fought from the shadows, killing the criminals without seeking reward, only taking power once it would have been necessary to do so to truly begin eliminating crime on a wider level.

 

He was the ultimate pragmatist. He saw visions from an early age, and quickly learned that he couldn't alter them (whether wrongly or not) and so gave up on trying. Even so, he still tried to make things better where he could, bringing stability the way he knew would work, fighting under the Father he knew would kill him.

 

 

What I see happening with the Night Haunter is that he saw his death at the hands of the Emperor, but rationalised it. He never saw the reason. He thought he would stuff up in some way or another in his sanctioned genocides, and be punished accordingly. When he found the real reason he would be betrayed, he snapped at the callous way he was to be discarded after all his loyalty and all the accusations he weathered.

 

I mean, the genocides is something I can't see the Emperor just not noticing. The other Primarchs to be sanctioned were the World Eaters, who were sanctioned fairly early on after their deeds, and the Thousand Sons, whose actions could be explained in other ways.

The Night Lords acted in ways that couldn't be argued to be something else. A genocide is a genocide. Yet the Emperor seemed only too happy to allow things to continue as they were, until Curze snapped himself. Think about that, the Emperor only acted once Curze's loyalty was questioned. Before he attacked Dorn, the Emperor did nothing.

 

Whether or not the Emperor gave actual consent to the actions or not, he didn't condemn them for a long, long time.

[ArcticFox]

And yet I find myself unable to feel that way, because of all the primarchs, Dorn struck me as the most willing to admit to his shortcomings and to take action to improve. Hence, our glorious chapter came to be. The rest tended to find blame in others. Sometimes that was justified, sometimes it was mere scapegoating. (I'm looking at YOU, Gulliman.)

I am not getting it. Wo did Guilliman blame for what?

 

While our great primarch, Dorn, battled to defend Terra, the Ultramarines arrived too late bringing only their excuses with them.

 

(I recall reading somewhere that the Imperial Fists and Black Templars regard the Ultramarines as something of a gang of posers. It was the Fists that held Terra during the height of the Heresy and then the Ultramarines came down and marched around Terra in their shiny blue armor like lords of the manor...)

 

Thats a negative. I have evidence showing both IF and BT cooperation/respect with/for the UMs, post Heresy.

 

I fail to understand why they'd need to be mutually exclusive.

[Legatus]

Phoebus & Lord_Caerolion: IIRC the Night Lord actions only really got out of hand when they were being reinforced mainly by the (recidivistic) criminal population of Nostramo, who indulged in slaughtering the helpless. It had not really been Curzes intention, and also was not what the Emperor expected of him and his Legion. Curze was about to face accusations regarding his Legions actions when the heresy hit. I would consider that established and canonical Night Lords background, but I am operating on memory, so I might be in error on some details.

 

According to Sahaal, and I did get the impression that he was completely convinced that this was the truth, the actions of the Night Lords were sanctioned or at least tolerated by the Emperor, and the Emperor only started to take (sneaky) actions against them when there started to be open complains about their actions. IIRC that was what Curze told Sahaal before making him his quasi successor. In Sahaals mind.

However, that account seems to be in conflict with the official canon of the Night Lords, so Acerbus's account, that Curze was only using Sahaal as a gullible tool and was not telling him the truth, is much more in line with 40K canon.

 

 

ArcticFox:

 

I fail to understand why they'd need to be mutually exclusive.

What, having respect for someone and regarding them as posers? :(

[ArcticFox]

ArcticFox:

 

I fail to understand why they'd need to be mutually exclusive.

What, having respect for someone and regarding them as posers? :(

 

Sure. Games Workshop fluff is chock full of backstories that provide a believable motive for any two armies to fight each other or be allies (most of the time, anyway.)

 

A Black Templar force can fight alongside an Ultramarines force, respecting their skill and bravery, but still remembering who defended Holy Terra and who came parading in later.

[Legatus]

By "parading in" you refer to "protecting the whole Imperium" I assume? I don't remember the Ultramarines claiming any glory for the defense of terra, so I am not sure what you are blaming them for.

[Captain Idaho]

Exactly. It's not as if the Ultramarines meant to be abscent from the Siege of Terra, and all fluff points to them making all haste to Terra as soon as they learnt of the treachary of Horus. Indeed the Ultramarines defeated a rebel reinforcement to Horus on Earth on the way, which we can take a good thing (source Codex Ultramarines 2nd edition from memory, other sources maybe).

 

And there is absolutely no fluff or quote anyone can make that shows the Ultramarines were posers pre Heresy and didn't act to save the Imperium. After all, it was Guilliman's Ultramarines that suffered most from the split into Chapters (being the largest Legion they actually numbered over half the Space Marines in the field after the Scouring - lots, most recent Codex Space Marines 5th edition).

 

I strongly advise anyone who thinks the Ultramarines do not get on with the Imperial Fists to read the Index Astartes Imperial Fists, as it explains things much clearer than the Black Templar Codex, which has the same information regarding the creation of the codex and initial disagreement between the 2 Primarchs of both Legions, but sadly doesn't conclude the matter with "what happens next").

 

I must point out that being posers has nothing to do with the fluff and therefore the Ultramarines, rather it is GW who you could call fanboys.

 

I don't mind people having a problem with the fluff of my favourite Chapter, but not when they don't actually know it! Sure Guilliman/Ultramarines could disappoint you, but give a legitimate reason why! There has never been a single bit of fluff that I have come across that states splitting the Legions into Chapters was a bad mistake, so when people use that a reason to hate Ultramarines, or posing, it gets so tiring as it's not right.

[ArcticFox]

You guys are taking this stuff too personally. It's FLUFF for goodness' sake. Different authors, different takes, whatever. It ain't always consistent. Can you handle that? If you want to debate then do it in the spirit of fun. I could dig out the fluff text where I read all that but it hardly seems worth it now. It would just devolve into a "MY FLUFF IS BETTER THAN YOURS!!!" argument and THAT is boring.

 

I used to play Ultramarines myself. It was years ago. I'd still be playing them now but I had to sell off my 40k stuff because of money problems. I like the Ultras fine. When I came back I chose to play Black Templars. Can you handle that?

 

Quit acting like such martyrs.

[Captain Idaho]

;) Reading my post I can understand how it looks like I'm taking it far too seriously! I have amended it below and hopefully it will look more appropriate:

 

Exactly. It's not as if the Ultramarines meant to be abscent from the Siege of Terra, and all fluff points to them making all haste to Terra as soon as they learnt of the treachary of Horus. Indeed the Ultramarines defeated a rebel reinforcement to Horus on Earth on the way, which we can take a good thing (source Codex Ultramarines 2nd edition from memory, other sources maybe).

 

And there is absolutely no fluff or quote anyone can make that shows the Ultramarines were posers pre Heresy and didn't act to save the Imperium. After all, it was Guilliman's Ultramarines that suffered most from the split into Chapters (being the largest Legion they actually numbered over half the Space Marines in the field after the Scouring - lots, most recent Codex Space Marines 5th edition). <this has been added as I am trying to be cover any future discussion that may unfold as potential counter argument>

 

I strongly advise anyone who thinks the Ultramarines do not get on with the Imperial Fists to read the Index Astartes Imperial Fists, as it explains things much clearer than the Black Templar Codex, which has the same information regarding the creation of the codex and initial disagreement between the 2 Primarchs of both Legions, but sadly doesn't conclude the matter with "what happens next" ;) ).

 

I must point out that being posers has nothing to do with the fluff and therefore the Ultramarines, rather it is GW who you could call fanboys .

 

I don't mind people having a problem with the fluff of my favourite Chapter, but not when they don't actually know it! Sure Guilliman/Ultramarines could disappoint you, but give a legitimate reason why! ;) There has never been a single bit of fluff that I have come across that states splitting the Legions into Chapters was a bad mistake, so when people use that a reason to hate Ultramarines, or posing, it gets so tiring as it's not right. <this part was added to my response as we get alot of flak here and it does wear you down sometimes!>

 

Hope that tells you which direction I'm coming from, plus excessive use of emoticons! :lol:

[The Emperor's Champion]

It's a little exhausting being Ultramarines players. We take a lot of joking and genuine insults.....sometimes/inevitably it gets under our skin and we go on the defense.

[ArcticFox]

Honestly, I'm not sure why Ultramarines get that much ribbing. I rather like the color of the armor. ;)

 

When I was in high school (which was longer ago than I'd care to admit) in the Senior Will section of the yearbook, one friend left me a squad of Ultramarines!

 

It does say in the Black Templar Codex that Dorn called Gulliman a coward for not participating in the defense of Terra, and I sort of like that fluff not because it's against the Ultras, but because it makes for good storytelling in general. It helps set up the rift between the two primarchs that almost led to a second war. The Black Templars are a decidedly un-Codex force (numbering as many as 6,000 marines, by some counts) and it's easy to imagine that also being a source of mistrust between the chapters. (Can you imagine what Gulliman or the Inquisition would say if they knew that?) Not that there's any fluff on that that I know of, but it could make for some good stories too.

 

Just remember, guys... the Black Templars are rigid, fanatical, uncompromising. We sort of have to be a little arrogant to pull that off. ;)

[The Emperor's Champion]

I'm pretty sure they KNOW the Black Templar are like 6000 strong, but no one cares too much since each crusade is much smaller and they effectively function as independent Chapters.

It's really more like there are numerous 2nd Founding Chapters who all call themselves "Black Templar". The only things outside that which really makes it a single Chapter is Helbrecht and whoever is permanently stationed on the Eternal Crusader.

[ArcticFox]

I'm pretty sure they KNOW the Black Templar are like 6000 strong, but no one cares too much since each crusade is much smaller and they effectively function as independent Chapters.

It's really more like there are numerous 2nd Founding Chapters who all call themselves "Black Templar". The only things outside that which really makes it a single Chapter is Helbrecht and whoever is permanently stationed on the Eternal Crusader.

 

The Codex goes into some detail on the fact that the BTs hide their numbers from the Inquisition. The Inquisition is of course, suspicious, but as the BTs have never shown the slightest sign of disloyalty it's not a high priority.

 

And yeah, 6,000 Space Marines loyal to a single individual leader? Sounds like a Legion to me. ;) If only Helbrecht was a primarch...

 

The fluff for my Crusade (linking it to the remnants of my previous Ultramarine army) is that the XVI Crusade was formed when an Ultramarine held world was overwhelmed by an invading Chaos Black Crusade. The Ultramarines fought valiantly almost to the last man, but were simply not enough to hold back the tide. The nearby XV Crusade of Black Templars responded to their request for aid and together, drive back the invading Chaos forces.

 

Unfortunately, both chapters were viciously mauled in the fighting but had established bonds of brotherhood so strong that they swore oaths to fight together from that day forward. Since the rest of the XV Crusade had already moved on to their original goal, the detachments sent to fight alongside the Ultras established a new Crusade to avenge their fallen brothers. The Ultramarines swore fealty to the new High Marshall and became Black Templars, members of the XVI Crusade.

 

Which makes sense, since if you peel off some of the black paint on my Terminators you'll find remnants of Ultramarines Blue under it ;)

 

Part of my force is shooty, like traditional SMs (The former Ultramarines) and the rest are CC geared. (Former members of the XV Crusade) My strategy involves using them both in coordinated maneuvers.

 

So I didn't mean for any of the fluff to come across as mean spirited, and I apologize for any ruffled feathers. I promise never to refer to Gulliman as Papa Smurf. :)

 

But, if any feathers remain ruffled, and you live in the greater Baltimore area, I suggest we settle it honorably on the table of battle! (I'll buy the sodas.)

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm pretty sure they KNOW the Black Templar are like 6000 strong, but no one cares too much since each crusade is much smaller and they effectively function as independent Chapters.

It's really more like there are numerous 2nd Founding Chapters who all call themselves "Black Templar". The only things outside that which really makes it a single Chapter is Helbrecht and whoever is permanently stationed on the Eternal Crusader.

 

The Codex goes into some detail on the fact that the BTs hide their numbers from the Inquisition. The Inquisition is of course, suspicious, but as the BTs have never shown the slightest sign of disloyalty it's not a high priority.

 

And yeah, 6,000 Space Marines loyal to a single individual leader? Sounds like a Legion to me. ;) If only Helbrecht was a primarch...

 

The fluff for my Crusade (linking it to the remnants of my previous Ultramarine army) is that the XVI Crusade was formed when an Ultramarine held world was overwhelmed by an invading Chaos Black Crusade. The Ultramarines fought valiantly almost to the last man, but were simply not enough to hold back the tide. The nearby XV Crusade of Black Templars responded to their request for aid and together, drive back the invading Chaos forces.

 

Unfortunately, both chapters were viciously mauled in the fighting but had established bonds of brotherhood so strong that they swore oaths to fight together from that day forward. Since the rest of the XV Crusade had already moved on to their original goal, the detachments sent to fight alongside the Ultras established a new Crusade to avenge their fallen brothers. The Ultramarines swore fealty to the new High Marshall and became Black Templars, members of the XVI Crusade.

 

Which makes sense, since if you peel off some of the black paint on my Terminators you'll find remnants of Ultramarines Blue under it ;)

 

Part of my force is shooty, like traditional SMs (The former Ultramarines) and the rest are CC geared. (Former members of the XV Crusade) My strategy involves using them both in coordinated maneuvers.

 

So I didn't mean for any of the fluff to come across as mean spirited, and I apologize for any ruffled feathers. I promise never to refer to Gulliman as Papa Smurf. :)

 

But, if any feathers remain ruffled, and you live in the greater Baltimore area, I suggest we settle it honorably on the table of battle! (I'll buy the sodas.)

 

 

 

:)

 

as heck, what have you done!?!? Ultramarines switching sides!!! :P

[ArcticFox]

:)

 

as heck, what have you done!?!? Ultramarines switching sides!!! :)

 

Black paint covers blue much easier than the other way around :P

[The Emperor's Champion]

Yea...I wasn't even gonna touch on how little sense that makes....

 

(Actually blue covers black quite well. That's what color we prime them afterall.)

[Lord_Caerolion]

Phoebus & Lord_Caerolion: IIRC the Night Lord actions only really got out of hand when they were being reinforced mainly by the (recidivistic) criminal population of Nostramo, who indulged in slaughtering the helpless. It had not really been Curzes intention, and also was not what the Emperor expected of him and his Legion. Curze was about to face accusations regarding his Legions actions when the heresy hit. I would consider that established and canonical Night Lords background, but I am operating on memory, so I might be in error on some details.

 

Actually, Curze wasn't being censured for the fact he was committing the massacres, but because he physically attacked and nearly killed Rogal Dorn. It mentioned nothing about him being censured over his tactics.

[ArcticFox]

Yea...I wasn't even gonna touch on how little sense that makes....

 

(Actually blue covers black quite well. That's what color we prime them afterall.)

 

Now you're just ruining my joke...

[The Emperor's Champion]

lol

:pinch:

[IronWinds]

Furthermore, the idea that Angron was simply left in control of a Legion before being brought under control is also incorrect. It's fairly obvious (I think, at least) that the War Hounds weren't just roaming around, undertaking operations while also trying to convince Angron to be a good lad and lead them. For his part, quite simply put, the Emperor had a Great Crusade to run. He didn't have the time to fix Angron. Again, this all comes down to a "will he, or will he not be able to cope?" sort of question. Either Angron would be able to bring himself under control, or he wouldn't. The fact that two Primarchs were wiped from the rolls implies that Angron was either not the first or not the last such problem the Emperor ran into.

 

Ok.... I'll repeat.... end result... Angron, who for all purposes has no loyalties to the emperor ends up in charge of a legion in a short amount of time. The emperor was busy sounds like a horrible excuse to leave a Legion under the care of a rage fueled crazy person you just found with a rage helmet screwed into his head. I don't care how you try to spin it, or how busy the emperor was, it was a very irresposible thing to do. Leaving the War Hounds to the highest ranking member for the time being and taking Angron with him till he could calm him down would have been better than leaving him with the War Hounds.

 

"It took centuries for the Emperor to make the Primarchs, and that took the majority of his focus. I doubt the Emperor could drop the Great Crusade from his schedule to undertake this labor."

 

Odd he treats something that took centuries to create so poorly.

 

He's actually working on the Golden Throne and on a means to access the Webway, which were both just as key in their own way as bringing Humanity under one power.

 

I know what he was doing. I was adding sarcasm. The webway was important, but I think the heresy was a tad more important. He lost touch completely. If he left the webway 'for later' and got involved with the heresy from the start I think he could of turned it around.

 

Perturabo? Lamenting his fate for having to garrison the worlds he conquered? Look at the Ultramarines: they forged the largest Legion by doing the same, and by following a creed of protecting their charges and elevating them to a standard befitting their vision for the Imperium. What did Perturabo do? He never even cultivated worthwhile relationships on his home planet, and refused to cultivate any sort of kinship with the Humans he brought into compliance. He perceived his duty--the same as that of any other Primarch--as a chore. He can cry me a river.

 

Where does it say he was garrisoning worlds he conquered? All according to IW IA: Perturabo was fanatically loyal to the Emperor. A force of authority(assumed to be Horus) deliberatly spread the IWs to thin garrisoning other worlds for the purpose of deranging the legion and making them easier to turn against the emperor. In one instance 10 marines(1 squad) were garrisoning a world of 130 million who were not exactly happy being under Imperial rule. I would love to know how the Ultras would of lamented that relationship ;) .

 

So even a message that arrived months late would of shown the problem. The last straw was the very conviently timed rebellion on Olympia. Now I understand the Emperor couldn't be in touch with his primarchs.... well aparently ever :pinch: , but Horus was pretty good at staying in touch on a very regular basis with Primarchs all across the galaxy.... so not being in touch... 'ever' isn't really an excuse.

 

 

Fulgrim was flipping possessed by a Daemon!

 

Overnight? It took a while. And I'm not saying the Emperor could of saved Fulgrim, but after talking to Fulgrim.... err....um... the demon he might have seen the Heresy coming and actually done something about it earlier on.

 

 

1. No, it's actually Chaos' fault.

 

Let me rephrase what I said. Not stopping the heresy sooner was the Emperor's fault.

 

 

3. Your issues with contact? It's a Galaxy, and it's one wherein Humanity has very imperfect means of travel and communication. I mean, Nathaniel Garro comments on how he can't even count the years he's lost in Warp travel! More than once, we're shown how the Warp can compromise both travel and message traffic. And history has shown us that lack of the sort of instant communication we in the real, 21st century world have been accustomed to is hardly grounds for excusing mass revolt. When Great Britain claimed dominions all over the world in the 19th century, it wasn't expected that governors and generals in other continents would rebel out of turn because Queen Victoria failed to send them cookies and postcards every so often

 

I do imagine she at least knew what was going on outside of her basement. The entire galaxy unfolds, people in different groups all across the galaxy see the changes and see that something bad is coming.... except the Emperor. I don't know... I just get the feeling the Emperor was the last person to hear about the Heresy. A recurring theme in the first few HH books was that the Emperor returned to Terra and no one on the front lines ever heard from him. That disconnect with everything going on is what allowed the Heresy to happen. I get it, webway important.... if you were just a scientist you could spend 24/7 working on it, but your the leader of the galaxy, you have other responsibilities.... A good start would be to at least have a clue what is going on.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Fulgrim was flipping possessed by a Daemon!

 

Overnight? It took a while. And I'm not saying the Emperor could of saved Fulgrim, but after talking to Fulgrim.... err....um... the demon he might have seen the Heresy coming and actually done something about it earlier on.

Uh.... possession tends to be an instantaneous sort of thing. You're either possessed or you aren't. All or nothing.

[Phoebus]

Ok.... I'll repeat.... end result...

But that's just it: it wasn't the end result. Angron wasn't simply going to be given command of the Legion if he didn't come to grips with the situation. If he didn't, I can't imagine that there wasn't some sort of a contingency plan to be followed.

 

Again, either the Primarch of the XII Legion got with the program or he wouldn't. By contrast, the Emperor had to run a Great Crusade that involved coordinating the efforts of literally billions of warriors, thousands of starships, and logistical considerations measured on the galactic scale. In that sense, yes, the Emperor had excellent reasons to prioritize other things in his schedule as higher than Angron.

 

Odd he treats something that took centuries to create so poorly.

I think that's your interpretation of it; obviously our opinions differ on the matter. Whatever "the Butcher" did to Angron fundamentally compromised his mental processes. Assuming that the Emperor could fix that is just that: assuming. The fact that he doesn't try to seems to me like a pretty obvious inference to the fact that he couldn't at that time.

 

The webway was important, but I think the heresy was a tad more important. He lost touch completely. If he left the webway 'for later' and got involved with the heresy from the start I think he could of turned it around.

I'm not sure how you arrive at these conclusions. When the Heresy was first reported, a total of seven Legions were sent to defeat the four that had rebelled. You can accuse the Emperor, Malcador, Dorn, etc., of underestimating Horus, but you can't accuse them of being "losing touch". If anything, I could argue that waiting for the Emperor to arrive to assist with a battle in which the Imperium should have had severe numerical superiority would have been a giant waste of time.

 

Where does it say he was garrisoning worlds he conquered?

In the same Index Astartes article you cited. ;)

 

"As the Crusade moved forward, many Iron Warrior citadels were established on liberated worlds ... Tiny numbers of Iron Warriors garrisoned the new fortifications. Where the likes of Russ, Vulkan and Magnus refused to split their forces, Perturabo obeyed his orders with increasing bitterness. The Iron Warriors were turning into a garrison Legion..."

 

So it wasn't just one instance, or what have you. And perhaps Horus was orchestrating events to lower morale. The point remains, though, that the Ultramarines had to contend with the same situation, perhaps not via conspiracy, and profited from it. The big difference seems to be how the Primarch of each Legion handled the situation. Perturabo was known to be cold, grim, and bitter from the get-go, and chose to embrace a "surrender or no quarter" ethos. Guilliman dedicated himself to the protection and promotion of the people he ruled over, and ended up with the biggest Legion of all.

 

Overnight? It took a while.

Someone else already addressed this well enough. To that, allow me to add that the time it took for Fulgrim to fall to the Daemon's wiles was less than it would have taken for someone to traverse a sector, never mind to go from Terra to the front lines.

 

Let me rephrase what I said. Not stopping the heresy sooner was the Emperor's fault.

I don't see how. Horus and his confederates acted covertly and in ways that were not likely to raise suspicion. When they played their hand, the forces of the Imperium reacted with appropriate force, scale, and immediacy. I would agree with you if the Emperor had said "well, if Horus really rebelled, we'll hear of a system other than Isstvan being conquered soon enough; let's wait and see..." or, "well, Garro claims the loyalists in those Legions are resisting... let's wait and see if they emerge victorious..." or "hmm, Horus rebelled with three other Legions? Best send four Legions to take care of this, since those traitors will have already been weakened based on what Garro tells us..."

 

But he didn't. The alarm was raised--far sooner than Horus expected, I might add--and the Imperium responded with almost twice as many Legions as had rebelled.

 

I do imagine she at least knew what was going on outside of her basement.

I'm hoping you're being sarcastic again. ;)

 

The entire galaxy unfolds, people in different groups all across the galaxy see the changes and see that something bad is coming.... except the Emperor.

What changes? Who saw them?

 

Angron and Konrad Curze are the most visible culprits in terms of outright committing crimes. Fine, let's throw Lorgar into the mix for having to be censured on account of worshiping his father. How does this imply "something bad is coming"? There would have been virtually no line to connect those three dots unless you somehow assumed that Horus was somehow behind it all, or at least gaining something from it. I mean, heck Rogal Dorn was prepared to kill the guy who told him Horus rebelled--that's how ridiculous the idea sounded to him. I'm sure that Konrad Curze wasn't his first choice to send to battle against a traitor* (he had just been assaulted by him, after all), but, again, it seemed inconceivable to Dorn that such a conspiracy would have been going on.

 

I'm sorry, but it sounds like that's just hindsight 20-20 talking. :P

 

Cheers,

P.

 

* I actually e-mailed Graham McNeill about that, questioning why Rogal Dorn would have sent the man that attacked and direly wounded him to help Ferrus Manus against Horus. His response was basically just that: Curze was certainly facing censure, but (again, according to McNeill) no one thought of him as an outright traitor. It was, as indicated elsewhere, an imperfect brotherhood that involved shouting (Dorn, Perturabo), brawling (Russ, Lion), and other problems... but outright betrayal was considered insanity.