Current Space Wolf Codex FAQ

[Toasterfree]

Q - Does Arjak's thrown thunderhammer 'Stun' his opponents as per thunderhammer CC attacks

A - "The Foehammer is a Thunder Hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:" - Yes.

 

How can you even consider saying yes to this, there is nothing in this sentence that even hints to it being a Thunderhammer when using it as a ranged weapon, if it did it would say so in the profile after the :?

 

when that : comes out, you scrap all you know of the weapon, and listed after the : are the profile for the weapon.

I know it says "whenever a Thunderhammer inflicts any damage result...." but that is a special effect for the Thunderhammer, not the ranged weapon that has it profile listed after : :)

you can say yes to it because you have to. The rules say it all, "The Foehammer is a Thunder Hammer that can be used... just because it is not in the ranged profile doesnt mean anything, the entry for Arjac is ADDING the ranged profile to HIS thunderhammer.

[Oldenhaller]

There's a list of special effects which apply to ranged weapons in the rulebook

 

which page is 'thunderhammer' on?

 

IMO it's flavour text which again has crept into the rules. Th instances where this have happened are manyfold (as i've cited before) such as calgar's gaumtlets (a boltgun which is fired with the following profile), telions stalker patern bolgun etc etc etc

 

trying to make it too good i'm afraid

 

~O

[Grey Mage]

I agree, and while I dont think Id ever call a fellow wolf out on it, I wont be adding stunning to Arjacs attacks when I use him... unless its in CC.

[Mammon]

I haven't used Arjac yet but I just finished modeling a Terminator to represent him so I really don't want to cheap-shot my opponents in the future.

 

Like Oldenhaller, it seems like flavor text is obscuring the actual rules on it. However, I do feel that it would still convey the TH "Stun" ability even as a ranged weapon. Even though you are using a Thunderhammer as a ranged weapon it is still a Thunderhammer, which comes with its own inherent effects. The only difference between the Thunderhammer that the WG, WGBL, and WL have is that this one is being used by Arjac and it is not a mundane thunderhammer it is FOEHAMMER...it is a special, character specific weapon. Like so many other named characters with named weapons, Arjacs has a special aspect to it that differentiates it from other thunderhammers.

 

All that to say, while Foehammer is a thunderhammer, it is Foehammer and is different from other thunderhammers. Even though its thrown, it is still a thunderhammer, except it can be used as a ranged weapon. I don't think the thunderhammer's stun effect is suddenly lost because the weapon is thrown.

 

The Stun ability only affects the model struck during the next assault phase, since that happens to follow the shooting phase (in which we hit that pesky Eldar Autarch with Foehammer!), the model will be striking last in that assault phase.

 

But again, that is just my thought process on the matter. Until the FAQ the issue will persist.

[Catheras]

Toasterfree: If it was intended that the Foehammer should add another effect beside being str 10 ap1 Range 6" it would have said so on the profile, and it does not.

The Foehammer is a Thunderhammer(that has it's own special rules, listed in the rulebook), it also can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile(a completely seperate set of rules and stats than a Thunderhammer)

 

Just look at a missile launcher, it can be used to fire a Krak missile or a Frag missile, that does not mean that you get the blast marker when shoting a krak missile. I'll admit that it's not the

best example since it lists 2 different statlines clearly, but if you break down the sentence it it exactly what the sentence does, after ...can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:(this is the profile the weapon uses when you decide to throw it)

[WolfLordLars]

Reference Thunder Hammers on page 42, and I disagree that its flavor text. Its a Thunder Hammer that has a ranged profile which is stated. The rules of the Thunder Hammer should apply to the ranged attack, if they survive.

 

I cant believe Toaster and I are agreeing on this one.. ;)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Firstly, Thank you WolfLordLars for helping iron out the creases. :D

 

I agree with Catheras

 

C:SW reads to me "...is a thunder hammer (in cc) that can be used as a ranged weapon like this (see stat profile)

 

I don't think it gets to stun lucky survivors.

 

In cc Arjac fights like this; s10, ignore armour saves, stun. use at initiative 1.

 

v Armour; s10. 'crew shaken result' against no initiative targets.

 

v Armour with shooting; s10, + 1 damage rolls for AP 1.

 

Arjac does not get i) +1 damage rolls for AP1 when he assaults Armour, conversely, Arjac does not get ii) stun when he throws Foehammer.

 

*The conversely is IMO but I do not see A getting the first benefit and think this means he does not get the second benefit.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

On Arjac again. :D

 

I did not see this elsewhere and so thought to ask.

 

Anvil Shield: "....that grants Arjac an additional attack in the 1st round of any assault"

So A gets it whether charging or charged. (statement)

 

What if A is locked in combat and his unit is charged by a third party - he misses out because he is already in an existing assault?

 

This additional attack, is it with Foehammer or with his 'normal' stats - s5, i4, non power weapon?

[Valerian]

On Arjac again. :D

 

I did not see this elsewhere and so thought to ask.

 

Anvil Shield: "....that grants Arjac an additional attack in the 1st round of any assault"

So A gets it whether charging or charged. (statement)

 

What if A is locked in combat and his unit is charged by a third party - he misses out because he is already in an existing assault?

 

This additional attack, is it with Foehammer or with his 'normal' stats - s5, i4, non power weapon?

 

The extra attack is with FoeHammer, just like any other 'extra attacks' would be unless specifically stated to work in some other way. It is a clear exception to the usual limitation against an additional off-hand weapon granting a bonus attack for Thunderhammers. As for your other question, I would say no since he is locked in an ongoing combat.

 

V

[SamaNagol]

It says you use the following profile when using it as a ranged weapon.

 

There is no mention of stun in that profile.

[WolfLordLars]

It is a Thunder Hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with that profile. The profile doesnt need the stun, because that rule is included in the fact that is a Thunder Hammer.

 

If they said "is a Thunder Hammer in Close Combat that can be used as a Ranged Weapon..." then I would totally agree with you guys. They didnt. Thus, its a TH that can be used at range.. and stuns anything that survives.

 

For the points, it makes sense.

[WolfLordLars]

Updated the FAQ for some of the newer questions and to reflect both sides of some issues in conflict.

[Wispy]

Thunder Hammers stun only occurs in CC. Point is moot. If there was a thunderhammer weapon type in the shooting seection, it'd be a different story.

[WolfLordLars]

Thunder Hammers stun only occurs in CC. Point is moot. If there was a thunderhammer weapon type in the shooting seection, it'd be a different story.

 

Can you provide a reference where this is the case? Cite a page in the rules that states this?

 

Its a special weapon, a special NAMED weapon, with its own rules. Those rules would imply that it is a thunderhammer that can be used at range, and nothing so far would imply that it somehow looses it special rules as a thunderhammer.. but perhaps you have new info?

[Grey Mage]

It is a Thunder Hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with that profile. The profile doesnt need the stun, because that rule is included in the fact that is a Thunder Hammer.

 

If they said "is a Thunder Hammer in Close Combat that can be used as a Ranged Weapon..." then I would totally agree with you guys. They didnt. Thus, its a TH that can be used at range.. and stuns anything that survives.

 

For the points, it makes sense.

The reason this holds water with me, and why I wouldnt challenge it, is because "stunned" isnt an ability for ranged weapons, and GW seems loath to rewrite rules text when its not needed.

 

Even if that does lead to confusion.

[rahl02]

Thunder Hammers stun only occurs in CC. Point is moot. If there was a thunderhammer weapon type in the shooting seection, it'd be a different story.

 

 

Your right the stun effect only works in close combat. Basially Arjac throws his hammer at someone's face and blood gets in their eye's making them strike at I 1 in the next assault phase, and since Arjak is going to assault you during his assault phase, well that becomes the next assault phase. So what ever he's attacking (hopefully a wraithlord or avatar or something similar) will be attacking at I 1. That's all there is to it. But it's ok, it won't matter Arjak will clean up like Ajax. (lol)

[WolfLordLars]

Thunder Hammers stun only occurs in CC. Point is moot. If there was a thunderhammer weapon type in the shooting seection, it'd be a different story.

 

 

Your right the stun effect only works in close combat.

 

Again, can you cite the rules that would back this statement up?

 

The wording suggests otherwise.

[rahl02]

Thunder Hammers stun only occurs in CC. Point is moot. If there was a thunderhammer weapon type in the shooting seection, it'd be a different story.

 

 

Your right the stun effect only works in close combat.

 

Again, can you cite the rules that would back this statement up?

 

The wording suggests otherwise.

 

Your right Lars parge 42 in the BRB states that "In addition, all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling, reducing their Iniative to a value of 1 until the end of the next player's turn." So I stand corrected, (serves me right for not checking the BRB before posting) I think back in 4th it only worked in CC. Anyway yes that would combo with JotWW quite well then. However how many actual models (that will be fielded) will actually survive a thunder hammer being thown at them. Monsterous Creatures, and Deamons from Codex Demons. That's all I can think about (besides models with Eternal Warrior).

[WolfLordLars]

Cool, glad I am not one of the only ones that read it like that as well. :)

 

I think most of the time, the stun wont even be an issue... but for that time I want to have Arjax deal with an Avatar or Greater Demon or some such... will be very useful. Slam them with the THammer on the way in, then hit them on the same Int once they are in CC.

[Morticon]

A lot of people (catheras excluded) are quoting the "is a thunderhammer" clause but forgetting the second clause of "which can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile".

 

That second clause implies that we use the given profile.

 

However, a lot of this may be influenced on the wording of the thunderhammer entry. (which I dont have on me)

At the moment I say it points towards no.

[rahl02]

A lot of people (catheras excluded) are quoting the "is a thunderhammer" clause but forgetting the second clause of "which can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile".

 

That second clause implies that we use the given profile.

 

However, a lot of this may be influenced on the wording of the thunderhammer entry. (which I dont have on me)

At the moment I say it points towards no.

 

I've quoted the entry for the TH. "All models that suffer an unsaved would from a thunder hammer...." That's the most important part. The BRB doesn't care where the thunder hammer came from whether thrown or smashed upside someone's face in CC. It just happens. Point blank and down to I 1 you go.

[Wispy]

I want you guys to read pages 28 to 32 of your rule book VERY carefully. You will notice Thunderhammer is not listed as a ranged weapon type or characteristic.

 

YOU CANNOT FIRE A RANGED WEAPON WITH A RANGED WEAPON TYPE THAT DOES NOT EXIST

 

There is a reason rending is listed twice in the rulebook, once under both ranged weapons types and once again under close combat weapon types, and that is because shooting and assault are both different things, and that their weapon types are not meant to be compatible!

 

 

You guys are suggesting there is ranged weapon characteristic that simply doesn't exist, and insisting the foehammer has it.

[rahl02]

I want you guys to read pages 28 to 32 of your rule book VERY carefully. You will notice Thunderhammer is not listed as a ranged weapon type or characteristic.

 

YOU CANNOT FIRE A RANGED WEAPON WITH A RANGED WEAPON TYPE THAT DOES NOT EXIST

 

There is a reason rending is listed twice in the rulebook, once under both ranged weapons types and once again under close combat weapon types, and that is because shooting and assault are both different things, and that their weapon types are not meant to be compatible!

 

 

You guys are suggesting there is ranged weapon characteristic that simply doesn't exist, and insisting the foehammer has it.

 

 

Unless the Codex over rides it. Which in this case it does. Its a Thunder Hammer that's also an assault weapon (ie weapon type).

 

I have read them now I'll QUOTE the Foehammer entry on pg 51 of Codex:SW:

 

When the rune-etched weapon known as the Foehammer leaves Arjac's massive fist, it's inbuilt teleport device ensures it will quickly return to his gauntlet ready to be used again. The Foehammer is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile....

 

What does that tell you about the ranged weapon well it has a it's a THUNDER HAMMER with a 6" range Strenth 10 AP 1 Asssult 1.

 

So to repeat it's a Thunder Hammer that's thown.

 

Did Arjac hit you with his thunder hammer a couple of times, is that why your I 1 right now.

 

(edited to enphisize the Thunder Hammer part.

[Wispy]

It doesn't matter if it says thunderhammer. Stop power gaming and look: Thunderhammer is not listed as a ranged weapon characteristic. You can't shoot with the characteristic thunderhammer because there is none.

[Grey Mage]

I want you guys to read pages 28 to 32 of your rule book VERY carefully. You will notice Thunderhammer is not listed as a ranged weapon type or characteristic.

 

YOU CANNOT FIRE A RANGED WEAPON WITH A RANGED WEAPON TYPE THAT DOES NOT EXIST

 

There is a reason rending is listed twice in the rulebook, once under both ranged weapons types and once again under close combat weapon types, and that is because shooting and assault are both different things, and that their weapon types are not meant to be compatible!

 

 

You guys are suggesting there is ranged weapon characteristic that simply doesn't exist, and insisting the foehammer has it.

Actually, the Ranged Weapon Type is called "assault" and the rules for their use can be found in the main rulebook.

 

Pistols are a subset of Assault Weapons and can be used in close combat.

 

So I think your confused.

 

It doesn't matter if it says thunderhammer. Stop power gaming and look: Thunderhammer is not listed as a ranged weapon characteristic. You can't shoot with the characteristic thunderhammer because there is none.

 

He certainly does have a Thunderhammer, its listed in his equipment....