Current Space Wolf Codex FAQ

[Baluc]

then by that rational foehammer will never stun, because its ranged profile says it doesnt, and because of that its just a hammer you can throw at s10

 

The problem here is that "stun" is not a USR, and thus couldn't be included in the profile. I also feel the telion example is a poor one. Telion's bolter switches the normal s4 ap5 rapid fire for his new stalker pattern profile, because it is in essence a new ranged weapon, that just happens to be named a bolter. It could just be called a Stalker rifle, and no confusion would iensue.

 

The better way to have declared Foehammer should have been to declare what it does do, Doubles his strength ignores armour and stuns in close combat.

 

However its been declared a thunder hammer, which doubles strength, ignores armour, strike at I1 and models that survive a wound strike at I1.

 

Stunned is not a rule its a description of an effect. The rule for thunder hammers is surviving models strike at I1. Does this really matter? Against Dreadnoughts and Vehicles its potentially amazing against infantry Meh you're st10 ap1 weapon is going to kill someone...

 

Regardless of the writter's intent he's declared it as a thunder hammer, out of laziness or simplicity who knows, it now follows all the rules for thunder hammers all the time.

 

Essentially "stunned" is not a rule, wounded models strike at I1 and Vehicles, etc etc is the rue for thunder hammers, not just in combat it is the rule for thunder hammer.

[Oldenhaller]

then by that rational foehammer will never stun, because its ranged profile says it doesnt, and because of that its just a hammer you can throw at s10

 

nope,

 

The Foehammer is a thunder hammer - tells us what it is, a thunderhammer which has the name foehammer

 

that can be used as - shows us that we have an alternate method of use which isn't a thunderhammer

 

a ranged weapon with following profile - this shows what the second option for using it is.

 

Here we can see that you follow one set of rules for using the thunderhammer with the standard rules, it just has a name as any great weapon should. However you also have the option of using it's alternate set of rules which is the ranged profile. The two are separate and distinct sets of rules which shouldn't be mixed up.

 

~O

[Toasterfree]

and then by that nature, tellions bolter is different from the standard bolter, that is easy enough to under stand. if something IS something its that all the time, except in the case of Tellion where he OBVIOUSLY has an improvement, and you always use improved stats, you can never chose not to (except if you were armed with two different CCWs).

 

Foehammer IS a thunder hammer. its not ever anything else but that. yes it can be thrown. SO <_< ing what. its a thunder hammer when it is thrown, how hard is that to understand?

[Oldenhaller]

calm down old boy, it's only a discussion

 

The question which is being posed is that if the phrase "with the following profile" means that you exlude everything before it which therefore excludes the idea of other interactions between rules such as close combat effects which work at range. Shouting "what's not to get" isn't a reasoned arguement which debates the points which have been made, it's just shouting...it's neither big nor productive

 

~O

[RayJ]

There's been a ton of discussion here in the last day. I had to read through all this to make sure my point hasn't been amde yet. I'm going to start with this sentence:

 

Anyone remember the Tellion debate?

"He has a bolter with the following profile..."

But Tellion cant use his bolter as a bolter (FAQed if i remember correctly). Precedent? Check!

 

I will agree from this that Tellion cannot use his bolter with the standard S4 AP5 24 inch Rapid Fire that we all know and love. The new weapon profile explains how it is to be used in this instance. However if Telion and his squad are attached with Lysander, would he still gain the benefit of Bolter Drill? He is without a doubt firing a Bolter, after all.

 

That's something to think on as I move into the next stage of the argument. With special close combat weapons don't we already have precedence for rules modification with two different weapons: Chainfist and Thunder Hammer. The Chainfist gets all the benefits of being a powerfist: Double strength, swings at initiative 1, no bonus attack for two weapons unless another is the same weapon. The Thunder Hammer gains the special stun ability instead of the extra armor pen.

 

From these examples we have a weapon that follows the rules on two weapon descriptions. As far as I can remember, the weapon descriptions in the close combat section are not profiles at all. They are simply descriptions of weapon types. This would mean a Thunder Hammer has specific rules while at the same time NOT HAVING A PROFILE.

 

Following that logic, a Thunder Hammer could gain a profile without losing its rules. Thus Foehammer can be used as a ranged weapon (with X parameters) or in close combat (as a powerfist) both while using the special rule for Thunder Hammers: stunning an opponent.

 

I don't have my rulebook on me to go over specific wording, so someone point out any discrepencies in this, please. I am going completely from memory, but I am typically pretty good about these small details. If the rulebook backs up my memory, I can see no reason why Foehammer would not stun (or why Tellion would not get the benefit of Bolter Drill)

[Grey Mage]

Well, the only descrepancy I can see is that no CC weapon has a profile- because thats something reserved only for ranged weapons. Thus, Im not sure that its lack of a profile is indicative of the ability to use its rules AND a profile at the same time. But its possible, and the option cant be denied outright.

 

I wish there were still rules for Traitor DA, that could sort things out quickly.

[maznaz]

I still don't understand where all the reading around the subject and the comparisons and theorising are relevant to the topic in hand. You can debate the intention of the rules for ever and never get the correct answer until you ask the rules makers themselves.

 

All we have is the wording, and the wording is clear. It is a thunder hammer (a close combat weapon) which can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:. Nowhere in that profile does it specify that you use thunder hammer rules and as such you cannot, by the wording of the rules. Highlighting parts of the sentence in bold and leaving out the rest don't change this simple fact. Neither does insulting those people who think differently to you.

 

And just to clarify again as some people missed the point of my previous example. When something can be used as something else, that, is specific in that you are not using it for its original purpose. Ergo, if you use a thunder hammer as a ranged weapon you could only infer that the thunder hammer's properties were somehow transferred to the ranged weapon by your own interpretation of the fluff and not by the structure of the sentence. Consider this: A thunder hammer that can be used as a teleport homer. A bolter that can be used as a medi kit. A banner that can be used as a toothpick. In none of those examples would you infer transfererence of properties or rules from the former to the latter, and therefore you have to try to understand why you are doing so in the case of the thunderhammer.

 

The answer is your imagination, and not the wording of the rules as written. You can argue all day that that's stupid or facile or not considering factor X, but the rules as written do not imply what some of you are choosing to infer from them. Your imagination and knowledge of the game are doing that for you.

 

Marek

[Oldenhaller]

I'm trying to thnk of weapons which are used both at range and in close combat. The two I can think of are rending and melta. Melta bombs specifically state what they do in close combat as per other close combat weapons - it doesn't state that it uses the melta rule. Rending is a USR which has the details for both it's ranged and close combat specifics within it. It can be seen then that any effect which is applied both to range and to close combat must either have a descriptor for both or be a USR which applies to both. As the thunderhammer does not have a USR (such as rending) or a specific explanation of how it works at range (the opposite of melta/bombs) then we can summise that it only works in combat.

 

[/stream of conciousness]

 

~O

[Wulf Vengis]

But what Im failing to see in this logic everyones attempting to throw around is WHY are we ignoring the first line of the sentance "the foe hammer is a thunder hammer", it doesnt need any further or special rules discriptors its right there in front of us all in black and white. The term thunder hammer means that the weapon conveys the thunder hammer special abilities. Even in the special text for Foe Hammers ranged rules it states "The foehammer is a thunder hammer". It opens the line of text that is the rules for its ranged abilities.

 

I shall quote more referrances:

 

BRB PG42

Thunder hammers release a tremendous blast of energy when they strike. A thunder hammer uses the same rules as a power fist. In addition all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer and are not killed will be knocked reeling, reducing their initiative value to 1 until the end of the next palyer turn.

Nowhere in that blurb of text does it say "a thunder is only a melee weapon and never a ranged weapon".

 

Also it sates this about vehicles (also BRB pg42)

Against a vehicle with no Initiative value, whenever a thunder hammer inflicts any damage result, it also inflicts a crew shaken result.

 

If in the weapons descriptors it is called a thunder hammer then it must be a thunder hammer.

 

Now from the Wolves dex pg51

When the rune-etched weapon known as the Foehammer leaves Arjac's massive fist, its inbuilt teleport device ensures that it will quickly return to his gauntlet ready to be used again. The Foehammer is a thuner hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile: etc etc.

Again nowhere does it state that the Foehammer somehow loses its thunder hammer properties (as seen in the first and second quotes).

 

Now thunder hammer as describedin the wolves dex

Thunder hammers release a terrific burst of energy when they strike an opponent, their impact as loud as a thunderclap. In the unlikely event that a thunder hammer does not dispatch its target with the first blow, this tremendous discharge of energy will often stun an opponent long enough for a second blow to finish them off. See the assault phase chapter of the warhammer 40,000 rulebook for the rules that apply to thunder hammers.

 

So after all this quoting and arguing am I still wrong to believe the Foehammer is thunder hammer? No.

Am I still wrong to believe the Foehammer works as a thunder hammer when thrown? I dont think so, afterall it is still STRIKING the target correct? Or have I missed a rule stating that thunder hammers no longer strike their targets and have been replaced by those stuffed or inflatable hammers you get at crappy carnivals?

 

As far as USR goes why would it EVER get a USR? Its not a UNIVERSAL SPECIAL RULE its an INDIVIDUAL SPECIAL RULE. Therby making it unique and not universal.

[Oldenhaller]

But what Im failing to see in this logic everyones attempting to throw around is WHY are we ignoring the first line of the sentance "the foe hammer is a thunder hammer", it doesnt need any further or special rules discriptors its right there in front of us all in black and white. The term thunder hammer means that the weapon conveys the thunder hammer special abilities. Even in the special text for Foe Hammers ranged rules it states "The foehammer is a thunder hammer". It opens the line of text that is the rules for its ranged abilities.

 

Yup...it's good to know he has a thunderhammer to use in closecombat because no-where else does it say this. If it didn't say thiss here it would need to specifiy the rules for how a thunder hammer called foehammer works in close combat. It doesn't as it state's it's a thunderhammer, go see the thunderhammer rules for how you use them....in the assault section, cool that'll be a close combat weapon then. It then gives us an additional option for how this individual weapon may be used in the shooting phase giving usall the details we need to know how to use it as such, i.e, the following profile.

 

Almost had me stumped for a second <_<

 

~O

[Wulf Vengis]

Yes but even in that text it states that Foehammer is a thunder hammer, would that not grant it all the enemy stunning goodness of a thunder hammer? It may have a ranged profile but does it not still count as a thunder hammer?

[Toasterfree]

at what point does foehammer stop becoming a thunder hammer?

[Toasterfree]

As far as USR goes why would it EVER get a USR? Its not a UNIVERSAL SPECIAL RULE its an INDIVIDUAL SPECIAL RULE. Therby making it unique and not universal.

this is as awesome as it gets!

[Wulf Vengis]

Im arguing that it remains a thunder hammer even when thrown. Thats my side of it....

[Hfran Morkai]

But who can throw something as hard as, if not harder than they hit with it?

[rahl02]

calm down old boy, it's only a discussion

 

The question which is being posed is that if the phrase "with the following profile" means that you exlude everything before it which therefore excludes the idea of other interactions between rules such as close combat effects which work at range. Shouting "what's not to get" isn't a reasoned arguement which debates the points which have been made, it's just shouting...it's neither big nor productive

 

~O

 

I don't see how you would go and say that you exclude everything before it. The wording "with the following profile" means it works "with" meaning together, alongside of, In support of, or In the same group or mixture as those are all definitions of the word "with" it means they both sets of rules apply at the same time. The word "with" doesn't say instead of being a thunder hammer it acts as this profile when thrown, no it says it's a thunder hammer with the following profile.

[Wulf Vengis]

But who can throw something as hard as, if not harder than they hit with it?

 

Again wolves dex thunder hammers pg51

Thunder hammers release a terrific burst of energy when they strike an opponent

 

And again in the BRB pg 41

Thunder hammers release a tremendous blast of energy when they strike.

 

It has nothing to do with how hard youswing it. The fact is IF it hits its gonna THUNDER, hence the title THUNDER hammer, not fluffy soft squeaky toy handed out to dress wearing closet heretics.

[Hfran Morkai]

But then why is it's strength determined by the wielder?

 

Otherwise thunder hammers would all be the same strength.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Since Telion's bolter says that it can be used with the heavy 2 profile, an automatic correlation is that it need not be used with the heavy 2 profile.

 

This thunder hammer has the ranged profile of a six inch range railgun (which is pretty cool). I can see where those who think that it should stun as well are coming from, but it isn't specified in the profile. It's an inference from the description.

[Catheras]

Q - Do Fenrisian Wolves taken as wargear make the character count as part of a unit for the purposes of joining other units/assigning shooting damage

A - No. Unless it says that, its wargear. They are still IC's. The only reason IPs with servitors count as a unit, is because an IP is not an IC.

 

I was just reading up on the Independent character section on the Small rulebook page 48, under Retinues; from what i can read it seems pretty clear that once you buy a retinue/bodyguard or similar, the independent character changes to a upgrade character in a unit and stays that way until all the members of the unit killed. Only then does he regain the independent character status.

 

So then this would mean that Ragnar, Wolf Lords, WGBL etc. that can buy fenrisan wolves under the option list makes that character count as more than just a unit, but it actually makes him a upgrade character of that unit.

This would also hinder a character with Fenrisan wolves of joining another unit until his wolves are dead.

 

Not sure if someone has already pointed this out, tried the search fuction, but might have missed a entry ;)

 

Edit:Small Rulebook ;)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The strength of the ranged hammer however is already doubled and having a base strength of 5 makes it 10 (simple math and observational skills would show you this), then its AP is made 1 taking away the original AP of strength+D6. Frankly the AP of 1 is only there to indicate that even as a ranged weapon its still a power weapon. The assault 1 just tells you that he can move and throw, which is a bit unnecessary since hes wearing TDA which makes him relentless if Im not mistaken (if I am mistaken on relentless I apologize).

 

I was thinking about the AP 1 thing. Armour saves can only be 2+ (I think that is the case, anyway) so Foehammer should be AP 2 to indicate that it is a power weapon.

 

It is AP 1 which doesn't mean much for armour saves but it does give it +1 for Damage Rolls. That means it has gained a bonus that a thunderhammer does not have.

 

*This does not mean 'because it gets a bonus it is not a thunderhammer' but the "fors" have argued (I hope I am not misrepresenting anyone) that because the ranged profile is like what it is in melee it also follows that is enjoys the stun rules.

 

I feel you argue the case for stun from cc to thrown but you don't argue the case for +1 damage for thrown to melee. I feel that if you argue for one rule to step across situations you should also be able to argue for the other rule to step across situations.

 

People haven't argued for wider application of +1 damage because they know that is not correct.

 

(Definitely) When thrown Foehammer gets +1 Damage Roll that it does not get in melee. IMO When used in cc Foehammer gets stun that it does not get when thrown.

[SamaNagol]

I can GUARANTEE if you asked Phil Kelly this question he would look at you like you were something he just trod in whilst walking his dog and slowly back away from you.

 

I can understand where your arguments for stunning are coming from though. I would still say that you only use the ranged profile when using the Foehammer as a shooting attack however.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I can GUARANTEE if you asked Phil Kelly this question he would look at you like you were something he just trod in whilst walking his dog and slowly back away from you.

 

I can understand where your arguments for stunning are coming from though. I would still say that you only use the ranged profile when using the Foehammer as a shooting attack however.

 

A very colourful and flamboyant insult and although I am on the "against" side alongside you, that kind of argument doesn't prove or disprove the "for" case at all.

 

It will just :( off our brothers - who we love :). The argument is not a personal one, even if you think they are being silly, stupid or willfully argumentative/lawyeristic.

 

In Aussie Rules Football we say play the ball and not the man.

 

I am not a MOD and you can tell me to get stuffed, but I think we should be fair and respectful with one another.

[SamaNagol]

lol it wasnt an insult against anyone! I only say it because when I asked him at Games Day about the Logan 'counts as troops' clarification he looked at me as if I were a complete moron.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Oopsy! Sorry for being zealous, I misunderstood. I apologise for high-horsing. ;)

 

That's it, we'll have to invite PK on and flame him for being a jerk. B)

 

Then apologise as two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Then because of the excellent C:SW, invite him out for cup of Twinings or maybe a beer. :wub: