IA: The Stonebound

[Octavulg]

Ok. That didn't make it into my Librarium-submission anyway, so that's not a problem, per se.

 

Oh. I was already partway through when you submitted. Mea culpa.

 

Why would he have a dwarfy name if he's not from Kagara? If you must know the name is derived from the Simpsons character MacBain. I like the idea of the Stonebound taking over a lost fortress, though... might have to do something about that.

 

Hence "at least more grimdark". ;) While his name doesn't have to be ostensibly Dwarven, it also shouldn't be so un-dwarven that it hauls us out of the IA. Which it does right now, IMO.

 

And yes. You should. Because it would be awesome. Reclaim it from Orks or something.

 

Nomadic hurts the dwarvishness but does lean a bit more towards the people that might be preferred by White Scars successors, doesn't it?

 

Very true. But then, we're going to have this discussion soon anyway. ;)

 

The geneseed issue is really becoming that - an issue. If I do change them, it'll be to Salamanders, though, as I reckon there's enough DIY-Dorn to outnumber the Ultramarines.

 

Also, as people do keep bringing up, geneseed doesn't always indicate combat style. It'd be like making all Ultramarines successors totally codex-adherent chapters. This isn't neccesarily an argument against changing the geneseed, but it is something I've kept in mind.

 

I'll probably write two versions of this later, one with Scars geneseed and one with Salamanders. I'd hate to change it, but it won't be the first overhaul these guys have had.

 

I'd almost argue that the Salamanders are too dwarven, and you won't be able to make their characteristics stand out. ;) You'd need to bring the focus away from the craftsmanship and more toward the warfare if you went with Salamanders, I think. Both Fists and Salamanders have dwarven aspects - the Fists have the tenacity and attitude, while the Salamanders have the craftsmanship.

 

I'd lean toward the Fists because that way you get to cheat and steal a lot of their character, which makes it easier. It lets you keep a lot of what you currently have and shores up your weak spots in a way that Salamanders don't - with Salamanders, you still have to explain evolution of character etc, while a lot of the color gets subsumed into Salamanders-ness.

 

Also, Dorn is so popular because they're the second-most common after Ultramarines and, well - who wants to be Ultramarines?

 

True. But it does fit with the Dwarvishness. Trying to do both at the same time is very hard, although it does conjure up images of bikes with anvils in the side-cars for people to forge on the move with.

The thing about successors is that they can (and are probably meant to) be different from their parent chapters, although I'll concede that in this case it grinds a bit. I'll try and think of a way of incorporating aspects of both that isn't silly.

 

Different is fine. But they're evolutions, not revocations. ;) If the White Scars are E, these guys aren't NE or SE - they're pushing hard at being W. :P

 

You know, I am so sure I'd edited that out. I guess that slipped through the edit. wacko.gif

 

You may have done so. I'm beginning to worry that I used an excessively old version.

 

Always restart the critique with the Librarium submission, kids! Always!

 

The sidebar that didn't make it into the IA, you mean?

Also, if you mean the opening bit with Dain in it, don't worry about that too much - that'll go in the Librarium edition.

 

Sorry. I assumed that that was still part of their character, just not as explicitly. Well caught, you.

 

No copying my Red Lords, no. A grudge against tyranids I like, though. Excuse me whilst I kick myself for not thinking of that earlier.

 

Eh. I'd still lean toward using lots of heavy equipment, then.

 

Balancing Dwarvish and Space Marines is tough. Tougher still when the Space Marines you're balancing are White Scars. I seem to be putting the dwarf bits where the space marines should be and vice-versa. And if I swap them around, I suspect I'll be guilty of the exact same offence. This is cause for much meditation and careful thought.

 

As everything I say always is. Every time.

 

It's a gift. ;)

 

Why?

 

"Well, y'know, our brother Space Marines have been annihilated and our mentors lie dead. But hey! I WAS RIGHT!"

 

Captain Baines is hardly the equal of a Primarch, wouldn't you agree?

 

True. Just a little jarring. :P

 

Everyone in the first company has them... doesn't that imply they are the sign of a great warrior? msn-wink.gif

 

Implication has no place in the grim darkness of the far future where there is only war. ;)

 

Seriously - more beard.

 

Consider it changed as soon as the next update rolls around.

And the IW do indeed have a great battlecry.

Unfortunately, nothing I've come up with comes even close.

 

Outsource. The Stone Hearts get their battlecry (and initial preamble, IIRC) from Brother Cambrius, for example. I really need to sneak him into the IA somewhere.

 

As I said earlier, I'm not likely to jump on the IF successor bandwagon. They might have the best colour scheme out of the 1st founding loyalist legions, but there's enough of 'em as it is. If I change geneseed, the Stonebound'll be grumpy Salamanders rather than IF.

 

Grumpy Salamanders could be quite interesting, admittedly. I still think Fists would be easier, of course, but it's perfectly possible to do some interesting things with the Salamanders and this theme.

 

Just ask yourself what you want to focus on - then pick the Chapter where those elements are new and interesting.

 

And I suppose I should ask - is it that you don't want them to be dwarven or you don't care if people get it? The two aren't necessarily the same thing.

[Ace Debonair]

Hence "at least more grimdark". ;) While his name doesn't have to be ostensibly Dwarven, it also shouldn't be so un-dwarven that it hauls us out of the IA. Which it does right now, IMO.

 

And yes. You should. Because it would be awesome. Reclaim it from Orks or something.

I'll think it over, then. If a better name occurs to me, I'll write it in.

 

 

I'd almost argue that the Salamanders are too dwarven, and you won't be able to make their characteristics stand out. :P You'd need to bring the focus away from the craftsmanship and more toward the warfare if you went with Salamanders, I think. Both Fists and Salamanders have dwarven aspects - the Fists have the tenacity and attitude, while the Salamanders have the craftsmanship.

 

I'd lean toward the Fists because that way you get to cheat and steal a lot of their character, which makes it easier. It lets you keep a lot of what you currently have and shores up your weak spots in a way that Salamanders don't - with Salamanders, you still have to explain evolution of character etc, while a lot of the color gets subsumed into Salamanders-ness.

I'll have a good muse on this, also.

 

Also, Dorn is so popular because they're the second-most common after Ultramarines and, well - who wants to be Ultramarines?

There's nothing wrong with the Ultramarines. Which may be one of the reasons not everyone likes them.

 

[

Different is fine. But they're evolutions, not revocations. :P If the White Scars are E, these guys aren't NE or SE - they're pushing hard at being W. :P

Valid point. But the W in this case is largely due to pushing the dwarvish. In light of this, though, perhaps I've handled it more clumsily than I thought.

 

You may have done so. I'm beginning to worry that I used an excessively old version.

 

Always restart the critique with the Librarium submission, kids! Always!

Actually, I blame myself for not updating the first post to the Librarium-version.

 

Sorry. I assumed that that was still part of their character, just not as explicitly. Well caught, you.

Think nothing of it. Your point was still accurate, anyway.

I'm just glad it was one I'd already considered. :D

 

No copying my Red Lords, no. A grudge against tyranids I like, though. Excuse me whilst I kick myself for not thinking of that earlier.

Eh. I'd still lean toward using lots of heavy equipment, then.

I can add a preference for big guns and heavy armour in for purposes of fortifying areas. That won't be too hard.

 

 

Why?

 

"Well, y'know, our brother Space Marines have been annihilated and our mentors lie dead. But hey! I WAS RIGHT!"

Touché. I meant it to come across as him deriving scant consolation from the victory and avenging of the Red Sabres, but I agree that I haven't done that so well.

 

 

Everyone in the first company has them... doesn't that imply they are the sign of a great warrior? msn-wink.gif

 

Implication has no place in the grim darkness of the far future where there is only war. ;)

 

Seriously - more beard.

Ok, that can be part of the character of the Kagaran people. It can filter into the chapter over time.

 

Outsource. The Stone Hearts get their battlecry (and initial preamble, IIRC) from Brother Cambrius, for example. I really need to sneak him into the IA somewhere.

Good thinking.

 

As I said earlier, I'm not likely to jump on the IF successor bandwagon. They might have the best colour scheme out of the 1st founding loyalist legions, but there's enough of 'em as it is. If I change geneseed, the Stonebound'll be grumpy Salamanders rather than IF.

 

Grumpy Salamanders could be quite interesting, admittedly. I still think Fists would be easier, of course, but it's perfectly possible to do some interesting things with the Salamanders and this theme.

Just ask yourself what you want to focus on - then pick the Chapter where those elements are new and interesting.

Again, cause for meditation.

 

And I suppose I should ask - is it that you don't want them to be dwarven or you don't care if people get it? The two aren't necessarily the same thing.

More the latter. There's enough hints in there, and I prefer the somewhat subtle approach to theming. Perhaps this is where the lack of White-Scars-ness has come from. This line of thought will be pushed further later, but right now my brain hurts from all the exercise. :D

 

EDIT:

The bit about the grudge-stones having a different name was in the Librarium version too, it turns out.

It is no longer in the version on page 1, however. :)

Edited May 6, 2010 by Ace Debonair

[Octavulg]

There's nothing wrong with the Ultramarines. Which may be one of the reasons not everyone likes them.

 

Actually, if you really think about the Ultramarines, they're quite creepy - Ultramar is a disturbing, regimented place where everyone lives in a barracks and they're all dedicated to the Ultramarines and the Emperor.

 

Valid point. But the W in this case is largely due to pushing the dwarvish. In light of this, though, perhaps I've handled it more clumsily than I thought.

 

I'm overstretching the metaphor a little. They're a decent White Scars successor (though a little tweaking would reinforce that). And they could be a decent dwarven Chapter, too. But you probably have to pick one to focus on.

 

Mind you, there'd be a lot of interesting milage in White Scars landing on a Dwarven planet. However, I can't help but suspect they'd just crack open the citadels and turn everyone into nomads. :(

 

Actually, I blame myself for not updating the first post to the Librarium-version.

 

I started my critique yesterday or the day before, dude. The updatedness of the first post was not in play.

 

I can add a preference for big guns and heavy armour in for purposes of fortifying areas. That won't be too hard.

 

Not necessarily in fortifications. I just would have expected more appreciation for technology, or for large, heavy, powerful armor.

 

Actually, no Dreads is really at odds with this - they'd be old, they'd be armored, and they'd be cranky. It's so dwarven I could squeal. :lol:

 

Ok, that can be part of the character of the Kagaran people. It can filter into the chapter over time.

 

It doesn't have to be made a big deal of, mind. But it'd put the image in people's minds - most see Marines as clean-shaven, after all.

 

More the latter. There's enough hints in there, and I prefer the somewhat subtle approach to theming. Perhaps this is where the lack of White-Scars-ness has come from. This line of thought will be pushed further later, but right now my brain hurts from all the exercise. :D

 

These things take time, dude. Ponder. Then return. There is no sense in rushing.

[Walter Payton]

There's nothing wrong with the Ultramarines. Which may be one of the reasons not everyone likes them.

 

Actually, if you really think about the Ultramarines, they're quite creepy - Ultramar is a disturbing, regimented place where everyone lives in a barracks and they're all dedicated to the Ultramarines and the Emperor.

 

Macraggeii youths train in the barracks so that they may reach the peak of physical fitness and martial prowess. No other reason. Anyone who says different will wake up tomorrow morning as a gun-servitor, their family shot and their home razed to ground.

 

Courage and Honour.

 

 

As for the chapter, all I can say is that it would be a travesty if they didn't get into the Librarium, the amount of work Debonair has put into them.

[Octavulg]

This is a decent IA. But I am not entirely sure that it is yet ready for the Librarium - I see a variety of places it could be improved, whether Ace choses to take it in a more-Dwarven or less-Dwarven direction. Some are small, some are large.

 

And as shown, Mr. Debonair is not entirely certain about/comfortable with what he has.

 

I have no doubt the Stonebound will enter the Librarium. However, I am not sure when that will be. It could be tomorrow. It could be months away.

 

Either way, I look forward to providing as much assistance as I can. ;)

[Ace Debonair]

This is a decent IA. But I am not entirely sure that it is yet ready for the Librarium - I see a variety of places it could be improved, whether Ace choses to take it in a more-Dwarven or less-Dwarven direction. Some are small, some are large.

 

And as shown, Mr. Debonair is not entirely certain about/comfortable with what he has.

 

I have no doubt the Stonebound will enter the Librarium. However, I am not sure when that will be. It could be tomorrow. It could be months away.

 

Either way, I look forward to providing as much assistance as I can. :)

Hey, thanks. I have to agree, I dunno if the ol' Stonebound are actually ready for the big step into the Librarium. Let me have a go at thinking this through.

 

The more I think about it, the more I realise I am pretty happy with these guys as they are. They're an odd blend of dwarvish and white scars, and (at least in my mind) the overlap, where they cancel each other out a bit, makes them a bit more like an 'ordinary' chapter. So, they're now much closer to my original ideas than my earlier attempts. That's the advantage of getting it wrong first time around. <_<

 

As for going more dwarf or less dwarf, I don't know yet. If I go more dwarf, there's the question of the geneseed. If I go less dwarf, I'll lose some of the character, but the Stonebound would be a great stepping-stone to even dwarfier successor chapters, should anyone one day wish to write any. Heck, I might do a 'dwarfier' successor chapter myself one day, if I can think of a name. :) Then I can have the best of both worlds. :P

 

It might even be better to simultaneously play up both the White Scars and the Dwarvish themes a bit, and play down any 'ordinary' that crops up.

 

As for the chapter, all I can say is that it would be a travesty if they didn't get into the Librarium, the amount of work Debonair has put into them.

On the one hand, if the Stonebound make it into the Librarium, they'd be the only brand new chapter created for the Iron Gauntlet to enter the Librarium. (I think...)

But as Octavulg pointed out, there is room for improvement. So if I'm honest, that means to me there is still work to do, and they aren't ready.

 

I'm not worrying either way. There's still all day tomorrow for me to patch the mistakes up, for one thing. -_-

But I do appreciate the kind words, Alecto. Cheers. :)

In turn, though, I'd have to thank all the people who have put in at least an equal amount of work in turning my wacky idea into something that isn't an affront to the Emperor. I'd name them all, but the list would run to a second volume. You all know who you are, anyway.

 

It's getting late, as you can probably tell from my semi-coherent rambling and the late-night, almost sensible reasoning that is becoming the hallmark of my work. (It makes perfect sense now, but twelve hours later...) It's probably a good time to stop writing for the night so I can actually make a decent fist of editing-up the IA tomorrow.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I'd wonder whether you should make it clear that in many cases this forging is symbolic - most Space Marine equipment isn't the sort of stuff you can make on an anvil.

 

Incidentally I'd be intrigued to see someone attempt to create a Bolter on an Anvil.

 

It might even be better to simultaneously play up both the White Scars and the Dwarvish themes a bit, and play down any 'ordinary' that crops up.

 

You love creating work for yourself don't you? I know you realise this but taking the two themes of your chapter that are somewhat at odds and playing them both up while taking out the parts that for all intent glue them both together seems.... difficult?

 

I understand you like the WS as your parent chapter and I also understand wanting to keep your dwarven theme. Perhaps there is a split within the chapter or at some point in the chapters history where the two almost polar opposite styles of warfare cause a problem within the chapter.

 

From there you could either eliminate the WS influence in one way or another or simply say that one company perhaps is so dwarvenly stubborn they refuse to give up their un-dwarfish ways. Strange as that now sounds when I read it back to myself.

 

This could all be complete tosh but hopefully there is a pearl in there somewhere you can use.

[Ace Debonair]

You love creating work for yourself don't you? I know you realise this but taking the two themes of your chapter that are somewhat at odds and playing them both up while taking out the parts that for all intent glue them both together seems.... difficult?

 

Ambition and I go a long way back. As do I and late-night-poorly-worded babble.

I actually meant to say use some of the more neutral parts to play-up the Dwarfishness/Scars-ness.

 

I understand you like the WS as your parent chapter and I also understand wanting to keep your dwarven theme. Perhaps there is a split within the chapter or at some point in the chapters history where the two almost polar opposite styles of warfare cause a problem within the chapter.

 

From there you could either eliminate the WS influence in one way or another or simply say that one company perhaps is so dwarvenly stubborn they refuse to give up their un-dwarfish ways. Strange as that now sounds when I read it back to myself.

 

I'm far from settled on where precisely to take it. Chapter-schisms are a bit overplayed, and other DIYs generally have much better reasons to have one. It's not a bad idea though, and certainly an avenue I'll explore.

 

This could all be complete tosh but hopefully there is a pearl in there somewhere you can use.

Your ideas and insights are always welcome. Cheers, matey. :)

Well, real life has got in the way of me getting much time to edit the Stonebound today.

I'll just have to man up and take the groin-kick from the Big E. ;)

Edited May 7, 2010 by Ace Debonair

[Apothete]

Overall observations:

 

The formatting is suffering in this version and, while you can't cater to every person's browser, preference on window size (thank you, text wrapping), or even things as subjective as taste, I do think that you're going a little too far with the alternating colors of the headers. The darker hue with white lettering looks much, much better. Also, having two very long sidebars almost right on top of one another, then no other information anywhere else in the writeup seems a little odd. They also, I hate to say it, look way too long to just be supplemental information.

 

There are elements of grammar, structure, and flow which could be improved but that's probably always going to be the case. I'll try to bring up the ones I catch as I'm going through.

 

Captain D'ain Maurak looked into the single eye of the ancient marine who had called into question the honour of his chapter. Picking up the iron gauntlet, he considered his words carefully. "Your armour tells me you have seen much battle, my brother. But the valour and deeds of my chapter will not be questioned!" D'ain stood proud and tall, crashing his hand againt his chest, accompanied by the rustling jingle of his mail hauberk. "We are the Stonebound - let me tell you of our saga!"

 

I want to like this.

 

The problem is that I don't, no matter how I'd like to feel about it. Octavulg's right (shhh, don't tell him) in saying that it's just too hammy and odd.

 

Ferocious on the attack, unwaveringly stubborn in defence, The Stonebound Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes are known best for their grim and unyielding service to the Emperor of Mankind. With skill, unswerving determination and quiet pride, they have fought His enemies and protected His subjects for millennia, and are resolved that they shall continue to do so - evermore..

 

I still don't like this opening.

 

Ditch the dash. After that, I still say that it would read better if you cut "of the Adeptus Astartes," since everyone reading this writeup is going to know what a Chapter is. Also, unless a whole lot has changed in this draft, I'm not entirely sure how you can call them especially grim after what we've been told of their treatment of the natives on Kagara.

 

They called us Stone Warriors,for no weapon in their hands could harm us. Had we come to wage war, I would have thought nothing of it and slain them outright. The name, though, had appeal. We Astartes, bound in armor as enduring as the stones upon which we stood..." Extract from the saga of Alar Baines, Grand Captain of the Stonebound.

 

I know that I suggested going in this direction before but there's still something jarring in the first sentence. The problem is coming up with something which maintains the same sound and elements as what you originally had there, while rolling off the tongue more smoothly. It needs to sound like something that would be said while still being elegant in written form.

 

Also, I would reverse the formatting. Italicize the quote and leave the citation in plain text, lest it blend into the background as it currently does. I'd also drop the attribution down a line and stick a hyphen in front of it.

 

Sorry that I can't be more help on this right now, but I did say that I would come through and point out any issues.

 

Created in the Sixth Founding from the gene-seed of Jaghatai Khan, the Chapter that would come to be known as the Stonebound was assigned to the Segmentum Pacificus to combat the threat of increasingly numerous Ork incursions. A cadre of veterans from their parent chapter, the Red Sabres, would train them for a time, overseeing the maturation of their first five generations of recruits. Alar Baines was the leader of this cadre, but would not claim the position of Chapter Master, insisting that his role was only to mentor the Chapter for a short time. He instead took up the title of Grand Captain and created a temporary council of Captains. Baines taught these warriors of the many responsibilities and burdens of command, and began to search for a leader who might replace him when the time came.

 

Geneseed is a single word.

 

I'm also not sanguine on the use of "assigned" in this context, since that's a word which would more readily go with homework as incredibly dangerous combat duty for which there's no alternative but sending zealotous man-tanks. The whole paragraph tells us what needs to be said but does so in a form which isn't really your best writing.

 

If nothing else, the transitions within the body itself aren't terribly smooth and seem to jump around somewhat. We hear a tiny bit about their founding, then a choppy pair of sentences about their parent Chapter and Baines, followed by an even more curt and disjointed treatment of what should be a major element of the setup. While Baines obviously wants to hand over leadership right away, you never tell us his motivations for doing so nor what would make him eschew the honor of being chosen to lead a Chapter of his own.

 

Is it because he wants to go back to the Red Sabres? Does he feel that a Chapter ought to be lead by those who come from within its ranks and not outsiders? If the latter, how does that inform his training methods? Does he urge them to find their own way instead of relying upon either his doctrines or those of the Codex? If not, then why not remain and ensure that they're properly schooled, since he was obviously chosen for his ability to motivate and raise up others?

 

What purpose does this temporary council serve? Why would it only be temporary and what happens when it's dissolved, if it ever is? What impact, if any, do they have upon the selection of the successor to Baines? If they had lived without a Chapter Master, why not merely continue the practice of operating beneath a council? It sounds as if Baines is more a Master of Novices than an overarching voice of command, so it wouldn't take a whole lot of justification to say that there never was a proper Chapter Master because of their circumstances.

 

Baines’ next task as leader of the fledgling Chapter was to find a world that they could call their home. This search lasted for several decades, as the Chapter moved from system to system, engaging in battle with the myriad enemies of mankind. World after world proved unworthy to call home, but soon after his Marines made planetfall on the world known to the Imperium as Kagara, Baines knew that his quest had finally ended.

 

Did you watch E.T. when you wrote this paragraph?

 

You also manage to triple up on the use of "world" in one sentence.

 

"In the Kagaran caves at winter, the only light is faith in Him. Darkness surrounds, and we endure."

Oruc Stonebreaker of the Redshields Company speaking to an officer of the Imperial Navy two years after the battle at Kagara.

 

As before, I would fix the style of the citation. It'd probably be a good idea to cut the comma in the second sentence as well, along with changing "Him" to either "Him on Terra" or "Him on the Throne" or some other reference to the Emperor.

 

Kagara is a world within the Segmentum Pacificus, close to the borders with the Segmenta Tempestus and Solar. A planet of extremely volatile winters, the people of Kagara survive the merciless blizzards and destructive gales of the season by taking to the underground. Under the surface, Kagara is home to vast, underground seas, heated by geothermal vents. The world has multiple, large moons that cause tidal stresses only during the already merciless winters, causing the raging, roiling waters of the underground to surge along ancient, worn paths in the forms of rivers and geysers. In heading to the underground, the people of Kagara do not escape danger - rather they trade one set of difficulties for another. However, the people have adapted well to the depths. Much of the interaction between clans, such as trade or warfare, continues in the dark, dangerous caverns. An additional threat is the Gor'da, or 'Dark lizards', large, dangerous crested lizards that are easily capable of attacking and killing entire human convoys. During the winter, the Gor'da become more active, scenting both humans and their livestock as potential food sources.

 

A thought occurs to me.

 

Have you considered dividing the Kagaran populace into nomads and clansmen, where the former are the ones who risk living on the surface but the latter remain in the keeps below? The former could be a vital part of the survival of the latter, and vice versa, if the more mobile population does the farming and herding in exchange for tools, culture, and other services from the sedentary and "true" Kagarans that remain away from the sun. It would lend an air of traditional dwarfishness, especially if the society is stratified to look down on those who don't stay in their rocky holds, tolerating them as a necessary sacrifice while proper Kagarans work the mines, maintain the deep roads, and run the forges.

 

If you wanted to make things even more complicated, the Stonebound could favor the nomads at first because of their origins and the predilections of the White Scars for raiding, mobility, and fading strikes. Then, after the invasion, they could learn an appreciation for the more staid and protective warfare of the city-dwelling Kagarans, using bases of power and fortification to launch their lightning strikes, melding the two styles of warfare into one.

 

This also gives you an opportunity to bring the Sages to the fore, as the nomads would require their services while away from the more permanent records of the keeps. Kagarans, being dwarves in spirit, would likely have great respect for history, contracts, oaths, and proper methodology, all of which would be locked in the heads of ordained men who have studied techniques for perfect recall. Their job is to provide for council when away from the keeps, recording all binding oaths and agreements between men, births and deaths, and keeping the details of deeds which might require creating or shattering a grudge stone when they return "home."

 

---

 

More to come later. I'm running out of time this morning.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Have you considered dividing the Kagaran populace into nomads and clansmen, where the former are the ones who risk living on the surface but the latter remain in the keeps below?

 

This. I like this idea and solves the issue with my idea of a schism within the chapter.

 

I remember when I used to write posts that long.... *tear*

 

Not that they were anywhere near as useful as Apothete's. :)

Edited May 7, 2010 by Grey Hunter Ydalir

[Apothete]

Not that they were anywhere near as useful as Apothete's. :lol:

 

..and yet my Chapters remain unfinished. Odd that.

 

Your contributions are pretty useful too, Ydalir. Don't get down on yourself.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

They called us Stone Warriors,for no weapon in their hands could harm us. Had we come to wage war, I would have thought nothing of it and slain them outright. The name, though, had appeal. We Astartes, bound in armor as enduring as the stones upon which we stood..." Extract from the saga of Alar Baines, Grand Captain of the Stonebound.

 

To:

 

They called us Stone Warriors, for they had no weapon to harm us and had we come bound in our war glory we would have slain them without thought, without mercy. The name, though, had appeal, for we Astartes, bound in armor as enduring as the stones upon which we stood..." Extract from the saga of Alar Baines, Grand Captain of the Stonebound.

[Ace Debonair]

I, Ace Debonair, take up your Challenges. I vow before my brothers and sisters of the B&C to complete a brand new IA article and submit it to the Librarium before the 7th May 2010. I vow to support my fellow challengers with their IAs to the best of my ability. May the Emperor get out of bed and kick me in the nuts if I fail.

 

Right now, I am one sore space marine.

Don't let anyone tell you The Emperor can't swing feet - he kicked my groin so hard I'll have a migraine all year. :)

 

Well, many thanks to everyone who's still looking at this thread. :D

Since there's no rush now, I can weigh and balance all my options and all the great ideas being circulated and really push these guys to be better.

 

But, I'm going to take the weekend off first. Doctor's orders. :lol:

[Argon]

I, Ace Debonair, take up your Challenges. I vow before my brothers and sisters of the B&C to complete a brand new IA article and submit it to the Librarium before the 7th May 2010. I vow to support my fellow challengers with their IAs to the best of my ability. May the Emperor get out of bed and kick me in the nuts if I fail.

 

Right now, I am one sore space marine.

Don't let anyone tell you The Emperor can't swing feet - he kicked my groin so hard I'll have a migraine all year. :lol:

 

Well, many thanks to everyone who's still looking at this thread. :D

Since there's no rush now, I can weigh and balance all my options and all the great ideas being circulated and really push these guys to be better.

 

But, I'm going to take the weekend off first. Doctor's orders. :D

 

Hey, could be worse. I got turned into Chaos Spawn. I don't know how I'm still able to form coherent speech ;) .

[Ace Debonair]

Right. I'm getting back to work on these, since I'm already hitting speed bumps on the Infinity Knights. And the Rift Lords, who aren't even posted yet. ^_^

If I'm going to keep making mistakes, I might as well carry on making them with these guys. ;)

 

I never did articulate correctly the picture I have in my head for the Stonebound's Combat Doctrine, so I'll start there.

I know, I know, there's bigger fish to fry with this IA, but hear me out.

All of my chapters (apart from these guys) have their combat doctrines sorted. It's what I did first for all of them. I then built the whole chapter around that. For example, the IK love their dreadnoughts because I wanted the IK to use dreadnoughts to strike the killing blow in battle. The Red Lords are arrogant because I wanted them to use lots of artillery, and therefore not dirty their swords with the enemy's blood.

 

The Stonebound, though, I've done backwards. They're dwarves, and I have to figure out what about that I can carry into the doctrine. This can be done a few ways.

 

Personally, when I think 'dwarves fighting', I think a lot like human fighting, but with the aggro keyed right up. Discipline and order, because they should be in all things Dwarvish, but barely-contained rage as well.

 

All things considered it might be easier for them to adopt a more codex-y fighting style, but keep a preference for fast-paced warfare, preferring where possible to get to grips with an enemy quickly.

On the other hand...

 

Dwarves rushing about, as others have pointed out, doesn't work too well.

Patience and fortitude are keystone virtues of a dwarvish society, and therefore they should sit still and just let the enemy bounce harmlessly off their impeccable defenses, tearing the front-runners apart in melee while devastators and tanks rip everyone else to shreds.

 

This is where the White Scars geneseed is not on my side. They'd incline towards the former, whereas the Dwarvish would probably incline more towards the latter.

So my own internal logic dictates the Stonebound should follow both approaches at the same time. :P

 

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

After the siege of Kagara, the Stonebound's tactics have evolved away from the straightforward swift attacks of their predecessors, slowly coming to more and more resemble the tactics advocated by Jorn Rockhammer during the siege. Some imperial officers have likened the Stonebound's approach to a landslide, moving unstoppably forward and destroying any and every target in front of them without hesitation.

 

Stonebound forces generally deploy in a line, stretching out in front of the enemy so a charging force will be easily caught in a hail of bolter-fire and annihilated. After deployment, devastator squads and heavy armour such as predators and dreadnoughts are frequently used to secure areas, creating a series of defensible strong points. From here, weaknesses in the enemy formation are identified and subjected to brutal punishment from bikes, land speeders, and assault squads mounted in rhinos. As the attackers strike home, the units comprising the strong point closest to the attack move forward, taking advantage of the enemy's disarray to follow the fast attack with a deadly, unbreakable wall of firepower. As enemies move to counter-attack, the Stonebound strike from another angle. All across the battlefield, enemies are confronted with deadly, rapid strikes from unexpected directions, and attempted retaliations are shredded under the torrents of fire of the Stonebound's guns.

 

Individually, the Stonebound train in the use of axes rather than knives, echoing the ancient Kagaran warrior tradition. The Stonebound's Assault Squads number among the finest of the Chapter's axe wielders, many of them carrying heavy two-handed blades with which to annihilate their enemies. Although it is not unheard of for such squads to utilize jump packs, these are typically employed only for battles in difficult terrain. Generally, Assault Squads in the Chapter prefer to rely on their Rhino transports to get them into the thick of battle and also provide cover.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

OK. I think that's covered everything.

Does that make any sense, or have I painted a very abstract picture? I've been looking at this long enough to make my brain hurt.

Any and all comments welcomed and encouraged.

 

Hey, could be worse. I got turned into Chaos Spawn. I don't know how I'm still able to form coherent speech .

Proof that even Chaos Spawn are above txt-speak. 'nuff said. :P

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Without reading through what you've posted above - simply because it might colour my following statement - I would define "Dwarvish Warfare"* thusly:

 

Principally static and defensive in nature, being very solid.

 

The closest I can come Astartes-wise, would be the Pre-Heresy Death Guard; very tough and grinding pace of war, less about the theatrics and more about slowly - or quickly - breaking the enemy.

 

 

*If we are talking classic stereotype Dwarf that is.

[Lysimachus]

Hey Ace, glad you Edited May 19, 2010 by Strike Captain Lysimachus

[Captain Juan Juarez]

CJJ is absolutely right....

 

Yes! Somebody finally admits it!

 

EDIT: After getting over the initial brain-melting enjoyment... I agree with the Strike Captain, he has come up with a very plausible set of points that would reinforce your Dwarven theme very well!

Edited May 19, 2010 by Captain Juan Juarez

[Ace Debonair]

I think it turned out that not many IAs were submitted to the Librarium by the end of the challenge.

 

Lysimachus, you are the man.

 

Haven't said that in a couple of pages. :cuss

Don't you ever get tired of writing such cool stuff?

 

The only forseeable problem was step five of your plan. Refusing to leave the fortress makes Jorn sound a bit, well, cowardly. Perhaps Baines could take an injury in one of the raids, and whilst thusly incapacitated, Jorn takes charge and advocates a more Kagaran solution to the Ork problem?

 

I hear what you say about the homeworld needing tightening up. That will happen in time.

But like I said, once I get the Combat Doctrine right, the rest of the IA will fall into place. :cuss

 

I agree with the Strike Captain, he has come up with a very plausible set of points that would reinforce your Dwarven theme very well!

Fair enough.

 

Last time I tried this approach it fell flat. Hopefully next time this will not be the case.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Ace Debonair

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I agree with the Strike Captain, he has come up with a very plausible set of points that would reinforce your Dwarven theme very well!

Fair enough.

 

Last time I tried this approach it fell flat. Hopefully next time this will not be the case.

 

All about how it's written, but we're here to help ;)

[Lysimachus]

The only forseeable problem was step five of your plan. Refusing to leave the fortress makes Jorn sound a bit, well, cowardly. Perhaps Baines could take an injury in one of the raids, and whilst thusly incapacitated, Jorn takes charge and advocates a more Kagaran solution to the Ork problem?

 

Bear in mind it would also be a matter of perspective. Baines might well consider it a cowardly decision, but from a pragmatic Kagaran viewpoint it might be seen as the only logical step in the face of overwhelming odds, especially if you know from experience how the winter will even those odds if you can just hold out long enough for it to come along...

 

Having said that, the incapacitating injury idea would work fine too!

Edited May 19, 2010 by Strike Captain Lysimachus

[Octavulg]

I'll chime in and be all dissenting.

 

The proposed progression of events doesn't really work for me.

 

3)Stonebound start off more fast attack based as per the Red sabres training, although occasionally have Marines break their conditioning and act more like typical Kagarans, i.e. more defensive. (You could even say that their natural Kagaran strong willed stubbornness is affecting the hypno-conditioning therapy, very Dwarf-y!)

 

Breaking the conditioning doesn't seem quite right to me. Conditioning seems to vary from Chapter to Chapter and individual to individual, but this just rings hollow. It feels very much like what it is - a justification for your Chapter being descended from the White Scars but not fighting like them. It doesn't feel like a natural consequence.

 

4)Then comes the Ork attack on Kagara, they start off defending like the WS would, with lots of hit and run attacks, etc but suffer heavy losses each time they try as there are just too many Orks.

 

...There'd have to be a lot of Orks.

 

5)In the end, Jorn Rockhammer basically mutinies, refuses to leave the protection of the Ka’hagul (and other forts?) and the other Kagaran Stonebound Marines (the majority of the Chapter) agree. Baines can’t really do anything, he’s only the Grand Captain not the Chapter Master after all, and so the Stonebound ‘siege up’ in their forts. The siege lasts until winter comes, then lots of Orks die, then the winter ends, then the Stonebound come out and kill whatever’s left, etc, etc, etc. tongue.gif

 

A Space Marine Chapter just basically mutinied. That's a very, very, very serious issue.

 

* * *

 

It just...it feels like a justification, rather than a reason, if you follow. It doesn't really make much sense for the White Scars to feel a group who fight in a fashion directly opposed to their methods is worthy of being recruited, it doesn't make sense for the Captain to stand for them doing things their own way, and the whole thing with the conditioning raises circling issues of how they're stubborn enough and how the conditioning's weak enough. The strength of conditioning and Space Marines varies wildly from depiction to depiction, and I'm uncomfortable with the nature of the people of this planet being enough to drag the Marines away from both possible genetic preferences and conditioning.

 

I still think you'd be much better off just using the Salamanders or the Imperial Fists (I'd lean toward the Fists over the Salamanders - they're more dwarven in attitude, and there's less redundancy).

[Ace Debonair]

I'll chime in and be all dissenting.

 

The proposed progression of events doesn't really work for me.

 

It just...it feels like a justification, rather than a reason, if you follow. It doesn't really make much sense for the White Scars to feel a group who fight in a fashion directly opposed to their methods is worthy of being recruited, it doesn't make sense for the Captain to stand for them doing things their own way, and the whole thing with the conditioning raises circling issues of how they're stubborn enough and how the conditioning's weak enough. The strength of conditioning and Space Marines varies wildly from depiction to depiction, and I'm uncomfortable with the nature of the people of this planet being enough to drag the Marines away from both possible genetic preferences and conditioning.

 

I still think you'd be much better off just using the Salamanders or the Imperial Fists (I'd lean toward the Fists over the Salamanders - they're more dwarven in attitude, and there's less redundancy).

 

Bah, you dissenting chimer, you. :D

 

The other option is to adopt the Dwarvish elsewhere and the Scars fast-attack nature for the combat. you know, make them Scar Successors first, Dwarves second.

Although I can't for one minute imagine this idea will meet with approval. :lol:

 

I might wind up changing the geneseed, although I'm going to be pretty hesitant to write a Fists chapter. There's already a lot of DIY successors for that particular line, although I suppose I shouldn't let that effect my decision.

 

This chapter is giving me a real headache. :lol:

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

This chapter is giving me a real headache.

 

All the best IA's tax their authors. It's the effort put into them regardless of what needs to be done that makes them great, the energy you devote to the project even though it's difficult shows you love it. That makes them fantastic.

 

I might wind up changing the geneseed, although I'm going to be pretty hesitant to write a Fists chapter. There's already a lot of DIY successors for that particular line, although I suppose I shouldn't let that effect my decision.

 

No it shouldn't affect your decision. While you don't want your chapter to be like a lot of others out there by sharing geneseed, you make your chapter unique through it's character and believe me Ace, your chapters never lack for character.

 

 

Your chapters are fantastic Ace, so keep going damnit and make me proud! :woot:

 

 

Edit:

 

Constructive? Who said I had to be constructive? I'll settle for just being supportive. :P

Edited May 20, 2010 by Grey Hunter Ydalir

[Ace Debonair]

This chapter is giving me a real headache.

 

All the best IA's tax their authors. It's the effort put into them regardless of what needs to be done that makes them great, the energy you devote to the project even though it's difficult shows you love it. That makes them fantastic.

 

I'll be happier once it all makes coherent sense.

I'll settle for semi-coherent, though. So long as it takes my headache away. :)

 

I might wind up changing the geneseed, although I'm going to be pretty hesitant to write a Fists chapter. There's already a lot of DIY successors for that particular line, although I suppose I shouldn't let that effect my decision.

 

No it shouldn't affect your decision. While you don't want your chapter to be like a lot of others out there by sharing geneseed, you make your chapter unique through it's character and believe me Ace, your chapters never lack for character.

 

 

Your chapters are fantastic Ace, so keep going damnit and make me proud! :(

I haven't given up on the Steel Dragons yet, and they haven't been updated since last year. :P

I'm not likely to give up on these guys either.

 

I'll probably shift them to being IF successors, then. It's not like I can't change them back again if needs be. :P

It appears major re-write number two is on the cards... so much for fixing one section at a time. ;)