Bug Hunting

[minigun762]

I'm seeing a few things stand out

1) You'll want some kind of template/blast weapons to handle the hordes. Stronger Blasts allow you to insta-kill entire units of Warriors and equivalents. This means Plasma Cannons, Whirlwinds, TFC, Vindicators and Defilers have a use.

 

2) You need multi-shot high S AP3 weaponry to focus fire on the MCs. Plasma, Kraks Missiles, Lascannons, Assault Cannons.

 

3) It seems like there is alot of ways to shutdown 1 model or 1 unit. This means that when possible, you should hit the hard stuff with 2+ squads. This is even more true with those units that have Regenerate. Focus firing is going to be really important for knocking out Tervigons and Trygons.

 

4) Bring some counter assault. They're going to assault you eventually, so have something that can fight back. I'm sure Codex players will keep their TH/SS Terminator deathsquads but don't overlook the basic Assault Marine either. Berzerkers and CSMs are the choices for Chaos I'd say. I'm worried that all the poisoned attacks will be a pain for Plague Marines.

[Koremu]

I thought I had:

 

Khan with 5 Assault Termis = 20 Attacks @ STR5 Init 5 rerolling to wound (plus Khan himself). That's enough to take down any one of the MCs before they strike and with the presence of Khan's Instant Death Blade I wouldn't bet against them taking down a 'fex Brood.

[minigun762]

I thought I had:

 

Khan with 5 Assault Termis = 20 Attacks @ STR5 Init 5 rerolling to wound (plus Khan himself). That's enough to take down any one of the MCs before they strike and with the presence of Khan's Instant Death Blade I wouldn't bet against them taking down a 'fex Brood.

 

Yeah but don't they have a reliable means of dropping you down to I1? I forget if its Lash Whips or that Venomthrope's ability.

[kaiserstole20]

I thought I had:

 

Khan with 5 Assault Termis = 20 Attacks @ STR5 Init 5 rerolling to wound (plus Khan himself). That's enough to take down any one of the MCs before they strike and with the presence of Khan's Instant Death Blade I wouldn't bet against them taking down a 'fex Brood.

 

Yeah but don't they have a reliable means of dropping you down to I1? I forget if its Lash Whips or that Venomthrope's ability.

 

Any enemy model in base to base with a lash whip is dropped to I1.

[Koremu]

I thought I had:

 

Khan with 5 Assault Termis = 20 Attacks @ STR5 Init 5 rerolling to wound (plus Khan himself). That's enough to take down any one of the MCs before they strike and with the presence of Khan's Instant Death Blade I wouldn't bet against them taking down a 'fex Brood.

 

Yeah but don't they have a reliable means of dropping you down to I1? I forget if its Lash Whips or that Venomthrope's ability.

 

Any enemy model in base to base with a lash whip is dropped to I1.

Yeah, but the only MC that's able to have one is the Hive Tyrant (who goes simultaneously anyway, I've realised). Lash Whips are mostly just a Warrior thing, although Venomthropes do get them.

 

Any of the other MCs though, the Assault Termis are attacking first, usually hitting on 3+ (except against Trygon), wounding on 5+ with a reroll... they should average slightly better than a wound (1.1) each vs. Trygon

[minigun762]

I'm a fan of the idea but part of me wonders if it its worth it considering how OP TH/SS Terminators are.

 

Hell with Vulkan, you have a built in counter to that "WS/BS goes to 1" power because you maintain your reroll and hitting on 5's rerolled is actually better then hitting on 4's.

 

I know what I would do though, I would include 1-2 Claws Terminators in my squads from now on. Something to strike at I4 and with enough attacks to do a little extra against the small things.

[Fintan]

Being a Fantasy tournament player and a 40k casual player, I feel like it's worth pointing something out. For all these obvious solutions that are being put forward, what are the chances of including everything you need to counter Tyrannids whilst still keeping your list flexible and competitive? Disregarding opponent specific tailoring ( 'Cos only pansies and Chaos do that), will you chaps need to twist your generic Vulkan/Pedro lists in order to not be run over by this new codex? Obviously this will be especially relevant to a tournament situation but even those casual games where you just show up with an all-comers list. I'm personally with Giga on the melta + flamer front as I'd find plasma sadly lacking at holding its ground at anything other than MC killing, which granted it does do admirably, and flaming the hell out of Hordes has long been my favourite tactic at thinning a model-heavy army anyway. Has anyone fought a long-time 'Nid player since this came out?

 

Big thankyou to everyone for your input so far by the way, as I'm crawling back into 40k again I appreciate having a comprehensive guide to a new armies strengths and weaknesses and I feel that my unusal vanilla theme will actually be very useful against this new threat to the Emperor!

[Koremu]

@Fintan: I have really no idea how the all-comers lists will fare in any situation. I generally regard the tournament "list" circuit as pretty flavourless and boring. I'd rather play a scenario-led game, with both players aware of their opponent and their rough objectives.

 

If we limit discussion to what happens tournament wise, we'd have to take into account what the 'nid tourney lists are, and we can't really do that yet.

 

Vulkan and Pedro, who are the two characters most abused in the tournament circuit by my understanding, both prioritise stuff that you'll want against 'nids anyway, apart from suicide Dreadnoughts being not recommended against 'nids at all, so I doubt they will change much.

[minigun762]

Honestly for an all-comers list, I don't see alot of changes being made.

 

Codex Marines will still take:

TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider

Tactical/Biker squads with Flamer/Melta/Power Fist

Cheap long range firepower from Predators/Dreads/Typhoons/Terminators

Cover denying weapons in Heavy Flamers, Whirlwinds, TFC

 

Chaos Marines will still take:

Daemon Princes (you MIGHT see some Blissgiver Slaaneshi Lords)

Rhino squads of CSM/PM/Berzerkers (you MIGHT see more Noise Marines)

Oblits as the main Heavy (though Vindicators and Defilers will also be very useful)

Fill in the rest with Terminators (C-Melta are still good at killing MCs or Warriors and Heavy Flamer is cheap)

 

In the end, I believe Codex Marines will handle bugs better because they have superior long range firepower, forcing Chaos to hope for a win in assault.

[Gothical]

If the anti-Nid list is built well then it should *be* an All-Comers list, at least in my view.

 

You need

 

1) Anti-MC fire (long and short) -> anti-tank firepower/other armies field Monsters too.

2) Anti-Horde fire (long and short) -> effective against any non-MEQ, and against MEQ through "weight".

3) Provision to help your Tactical Squads out in combat -> works against Orks, Eldar and Chaos/Marines

4) Dedicated combat units to counter-charge -> same as above

5) Mechanisation (to avoid effects and to get into terrain) -> Mobility is important in 5th anyway.

 

These things are some of the factors I certainly think about with an all-comers list.

 

Tactics may change - you'll see the THSS units being used defensively instead of offensively for example, but I don't think that a list purpose-designed to take out Tyranids will suffer against other armies.

 

The thing is, even the new "Nidzilla" is hard to specialise against, because people use basic Termagaunt units to take Tervigons as Troops (making Nidzilla viable, but no longer Ripper-cored) and these units, along with an HQ Character, spawn an ungodly number of Termagaunts - so if you are dedicated in the anti-Monster department you are going to struggle, necessitating the need for "balance" within your force.

[LardO'Blood]

Just throwing this out there but I just fought my friends, one was Tyranid one was Eldar. It was a 2000 point battle per team, the Eldar player had 600ish points and tyranid had 1400ish. I had 2000 (duh).

 

Basically what I did was pop a terminator squad in a LRC, charge up the middle, mess up his genestealers with the terminators inside (tactical), use dreadnought to beat up the eldar's tank, 2 combat squads basically whiped out the eldar in a bastion and then deep striked an assault squad behind eldar lines, destroyed them and then focused more on beating up the tyranids, destroying the rest of the genestealers, a chunk of spine gaunts, took both the Hive tyrant and the Carnifex down to one wound then the battle ended. You could say the eldar did "their part" taking out both of my dreadnoughts weapons, killed one sternguard squad and inflicted about 3-5 other casualties on various units. Oh and their harlequins beat my command squad. Pretty basic, all he did was destroy my terminators, a tactical squad and destroy one of the LRC's hurricane bolters. I'm entirely confident I could have won if I had a bit more time. At the end I had:

a razorback, predator, 4 combat squads, depleted scout squad, chaplain and captain.

 

He had 1 gaunt unit left *cant remember what kind* a swarm thing (reaper? ripper?), the carnifex, hive tyrant and 3 warriors left at the end.

Note: The above brief overview of the battle does not include turns! This happened over 4 turns, I had to leave on the 4th.

[minigun762]

What is the best way to knock out Hive Guards?

You can't rely on Insta-death and they're tough enough to shrug off Bolter spamming.

[DarkGuard]

What is the best way to knock out Hive Guards?

You can't rely on Insta-death and they're tough enough to shrug off Bolter spamming.

 

Looking at their stats I'd say plasma or melta spam, denies their armour save and needs a 2+/3+ to wound. Either that or Th/SS, although that seems to be the standard response for Marines against anything. Not too sure about Chaos, although a Chosen squad with meltas/plasma guns would be very effective I'd imagine....

 

Krak missiles en masse (Devs/Havocs/Landspeeder Typhoon).

[Newtoncain]

Over the weekend I had a chance to play a friend (Nid player) in 2 Battles:

1st-Me-1500pt SM-5 squads, 4 razors (TLLC x 2, LC/TLPG, AssC), 1 Rhino and MotF as HQ.

Him-1500pt new nids- Hive w/ HVC, Tervigon, 5 Winged warriors, Gen x10 + brood lord, Gen x 10 and 2 x Gaunts x30 w/ 5pt upgrade that gives them R18 S4 A3 and unqiu zthrop.

 

pited battle w/ 4 objectives is what the dice dictated.

Lessons learned- unque Zthrod needs drop pod or cover. i killed with a LC shot.

- 10 pt gaunts in brood of 30 = 90 shots = dead unit most of the time

-Termigon-very nice, the test to extend synap range to 18 and can give an order to any 1 brood of gaunts w/in 6 that allows them to move and shoot in the same turn = move 6, run 1-6, shoots 90 shots.

 

-Hive w/o invul save = dead hive. HVC is not that great.

 

2nd-Me/friend 2000pts of Nids- hive w/HVC and +1 reserves roll, Death leaper, Tervigon x 2, 2 x gaunts x30 w/ 5pt upgrade, 2 x Brood+10 gens, Zgen x 10

 

vs my son and his friend 2000pt CSM-Abbodon + 4 LC Termines in a LR, Karn + 9 Khrone Ber in Rhino, 10 man CSM in Rhino, 9 Tsons in Rhino, Sum Great Daemon and 7 x Summon Less Daemon.

 

 

Piched battle w/ 2 objectives

Lessons learned-Roll better on reserves (even w/ +1)

-hive Dies easily = Karn killed this by himself

-Tervigons needs regeneration, dies to easily w/o it.

-Gens and Zgens, roll better on reserve. When they did make it in (t4) = they crushed the units they attacked, but it was too late.

-guants 90 shooting rolls will take out a Summon GD, but not Abbdon and Termies (darn 2+ saves.

-Death leaper dies even 15" away and in cover from enemy

[minigun762]

Oddly enough it sounds like the Gaunts were the worst thing.

[Koremu]

What is the best way to knock out Hive Guards?

You can't rely on Insta-death and they're tough enough to shrug off Bolter spamming.

 

Heavy Bolter Attack Bikes, Land Speeders, Assault Cannon, Autocannon, or failing all of the above, just plain dogpiling them with Assault Marines. Their short range makes them inherently vulnerable to anything with greater mobility than them. Podding a dread near to them would work if you really wanted them dead.

 

For chaos your best bet may be a variation on the Termicide Squad.

 

Oddly enough it sounds like the Gaunts were the worst thing.

I think that the expensive gaunt upgrades are a mistake unless the 'nid player has a lot of other cheap T- or H- ones to draw fire/provide cover

[Capt. Lysander]

What is the best way to knock out Hive Guards?

You can't rely on Insta-death and they're tough enough to shrug off Bolter spamming.

 

Heavy Bolter Attack Bikes, Land Speeders, Assault Cannon, Autocannon, or failing all of the above, just plain dogpiling them with Assault Marines. Their short range makes them inherently vulnerable to anything with greater mobility than them. Podding a dread near to them would work if you really wanted them dead.

 

For chaos your best bet may be a variation on the Termicide Squad.

 

Oddly enough it sounds like the Gaunts were the worst thing.

I think that the expensive gaunt upgrades are a mistake unless the 'nid player has a lot of other cheap T- or H- ones to draw fire/provide cover

 

What weapons would the dread be using?

[Koremu]

Assault Cannon/Heavy Flamer? Both AP4, both have a reasonable chance to wound, especially if you are running Vulkan...

 

Or maybe some Ironclad fit... Ironclad with Melta, Flamer & H-Ks would actually work well here

 

I don't really use Dreads myself. I'd speederise the Hive Guard.

 

 

 

Side note though: with the removal of Assault Grenades from most 'nids, Dreadnoughts in area terrain have a pretty decent chance at putting wounds on any MC. Could well be useful against an overconfident opponent.

[The Black Watch]

Yeah, but the only MC that's able to have one is the Hive Tyrant (who goes simultaneously anyway, I've realised). Lash Whips are mostly just a Warrior thing, although Venomthropes do get them.

Why does the Hive Tyrant go simultaneously? He is I5 and can be upgraded to Furious Charge too. Tyrant Guard can also have Lash Whips making that unit tough to beat in assault.

 

Venomthropes have a few useful abilities. Not only do they have lash whips and poisoned (2+), they grant any unit within 6" a 5+ cover save AND defensive grenades and any unit wishing charge that unit must take a dangerous terrain test. Not bad for 55pts!

[Koremu]

Yeah, but the only MC that's able to have one is the Hive Tyrant (who goes simultaneously anyway, I've realised). Lash Whips are mostly just a Warrior thing, although Venomthropes do get them.

Why does the Hive Tyrant go simultaneously? He is I5 and can be upgraded to Furious Charge too.

My comment was in reference to LC Termis on the assault with Khan to give them Furious Charge. Therefore both sides are going at Init5. And as I say, this is mostly for LC termis with khan picking on stuff where they'll get to go first. STR5 vs. T6 with reroll to wound, etc etc. Basically the gist of that comment was "this doesn't work on Tyrants".

 

And yes Venomthropes have some nice abilites for their points cost. They are krak-bait though. But unless dealt with they are a deterrent to the counter-assault tactic.

[spafe]

Hi, got the codex couple of days ago, just one thing i noticed (although may be mistaken), they have no independant characters, none, at all. This means that the parasite fella, deathleaper, or any other funky stuff (bar the swarmlord and tyrant with their guards) will be able to hide in units.

 

Someone mentioned the alpha warior and a joining unit power, i'm at work at the minute so cant check and cant say i looked closely at that entry, but im sure the parasite guy doesnt. jsut some food for thought when it comes to counters.

 

cheers

[Koremu]

Hi, got the codex couple of days ago, just one thing i noticed (although may be mistaken), they have no independant characters, none, at all. This means that the parasite fella, deathleaper, or any other funky stuff (bar the swarmlord and tyrant with their guards) will be able to hide in units.

 

Someone mentioned the alpha warior and a joining unit power, i'm at work at the minute so cant check and cant say i looked closely at that entry, but im sure the parasite guy doesnt. jsut some food for thought when it comes to counters.

 

cheers

 

You mean won't be able to hide in units. A unit - even a solo model - that doesn't have the IC special rule is just a seperate unit, no ability to join up.

 

So you can always target (albeit giving cover saves) whatever you want.

 

The Tyranid Prime is an Independent Character, as is the Parasite of Mortrex.

 

Tyrants can act like an IC for the purposes of joining Tyrant Guard only. Interestingly, they no longer count as a Retinue (unlike the last Codex) so you can directly target them in CC.

[minigun762]

Assault Cannon/Heavy Flamer? Both AP4, both have a reasonable chance to wound, especially if you are running Vulkan...

 

Or maybe some Ironclad fit... Ironclad with Melta, Flamer & H-Ks would actually work well here

 

I thought HG were 3+ saves?

[Koremu]

Assault Cannon/Heavy Flamer? Both AP4, both have a reasonable chance to wound, especially if you are running Vulkan...

 

Or maybe some Ironclad fit... Ironclad with Melta, Flamer & H-Ks would actually work well here

 

I thought HG were 3+ saves?

*checks Codex*

 

Nope. Hive Guard are T6, 4+ Sv

 

Tyrant Guard are T6 3+ Sv.

[minigun762]

*checks Codex*

 

Nope. Hive Guard are T6, 4+ Sv

 

Tyrant Guard are T6 3+ Sv.

 

Ohh I see. Thanks.

 

Well my Autocannons and Heavy Flamers are happier now. :tu: