Bug Hunting

[Koremu]

*checks Codex*

 

Nope. Hive Guard are T6, 4+ Sv

 

Tyrant Guard are T6 3+ Sv.

 

Ohh I see. Thanks.

 

Well my Autocannons and Heavy Flamers are happier now. :)

I don't honestly thing you are going to have much luck with Autocannon due to the Hive Guard ability to indirect fire. I really think that mobility is the way to counteract these guys. They have a short enough range that you should be able to catch them out.

 

Bike Squads with a Power Fist may be a good Chaos (or anyone) option.

 

Thankfully Hive Guard can't take mycetic spores.

[minigun762]

I don't honestly thing you are going to have much luck with Autocannon due to the Hive Guard ability to indirect fire. I really think that mobility is the way to counteract these guys. They have a short enough range that you should be able to catch them out.

 

Thats true but the fact that they can't be insta-killed and have 2 wounds means its hard to stack sufficient wounds on them quick using the typical fast moving or deepstriking units.

 

The best Loyalists could probably do is the AC/HF Dread but thats only likely to kill 1 probably.

Chaos could try Plasma Termicide but again, you'll only kill 1 completely.

Heavy Bolter Attack Bikes and Speeders are a decent option but HG are actually very good counters to either one, being able to insta-kill the first and penetrate the 2nd on 3's.

 

EDIT: A fast moving Fist might be your best option

[Koremu]

I don't honestly thing you are going to have much luck with Autocannon due to the Hive Guard ability to indirect fire. I really think that mobility is the way to counteract these guys. They have a short enough range that you should be able to catch them out.

 

Thats true but the fact that they can't be insta-killed and have 2 wounds means its hard to stack sufficient wounds on them quick using the typical fast moving or deepstriking units.

 

The best Loyalists could probably do is the AC/HF Dread but thats only likely to kill 1 probably.

Chaos could try Plasma Termicide but again, you'll only kill 1 completely.

Heavy Bolter Attack Bikes and Speeders are a decent option but HG are actually very good counters to either one, being able to insta-kill the first and penetrate the 2nd on 3's.

 

EDIT: A fast moving Fist might be your best option

I don't mind the idea of Hive Guard firing at my Speeders. If they are doing that they aren't popping Rhinos. Given that preventing them from popping Rhinos too early is why I'm hunting the Hive Guard down in the first place, that counts as a success as far as I'm concerned.

 

The good thing about Attack Bikes is that once they have fired they can go in and lock the Hive Guard up in CC. Hive Guard are very little threat in CC, and the 'nid player might be forced to split his forces to free up his anti-tank.

 

I think you are right about Fast Fists though. I suspect Bike Squads (Fist and 2 Plasma or Melta Guns) or Jump Infantry Squads (Fist and 3 Plasma Pistols, or 2 Meltaguns in the case of Raptors) will work wonders.

[Warp Angel]

One of my best friends, and most common 40k opponent plays exclusively Tyranids, and while we've got a single playtest game under our belts, some things are becoming obvious.

 

1) Using Tyranids even remotely like you used to use them is a recipie for disaster. Individual bugs are overall weaker than they were, and total army firepower suffered, especially with template, and high strength weaponry. (No more gunfex or tyrant with barbed strangler and venom cannon). There's also far fewer reroll to hits and reroll to wounds available. So if you put the same force on the table as you had before, you're going to be weaker.

 

2) The Killers of the old bug lists got more expensive. Fex and Tyrants cost a lot more, HQ Broodlords are a thing of the past, though as squad upgrades with slightly reduced power, they're still very scary. This is balanced to some extent by cheaper and arguably more effective little bugs.

 

3) As a whole, the army is a lot more mobile than it used to be, with cheaper Gargoyles, Mawlocs, Trygons, and drop pod equivalents. This comes at a price, however... time. Deep striking or keeping something in reserves to outlfank, even with a potential +1 to reserve rolls is still a gamble.

 

4) Like the current Guard codex, an army needs to have a dedicated purpose, and just dabbling with things here and there isn't going to produce fantastic results.

 

He and I differ somewhat about what the most effective Tyranid strategies will be going forward. I'm convinced that it's going to take a "disruptive" strategy in support of an overwhelming force solution to defeat. I think the key units are going to be Harpies, Gargoyles, Trygon Alphas, and Mawlocs, while he's focusing in a bit more (we still need to talk on this) on Genestealers and Tyranid Warriors.

 

And because there's a lot of "T6 W6 Sv3+" critters out there, here's your handy dandy "mathhammer guide to killing really big bugs"

 

Bolters/Basic attacks: Hit 2/3, Wound 1/6, Failed Save 1/3 for a 1/27 effectiveness . The lesson here is don't. Just don't. Unless you have to.

Power Weapon: Hit six times to generate a wound, lots of variables to consider here (WS of creature, biomorphs, etc).

Lightning Claw: About three hits to generae a wound, but still lots of variables.

Heavy Bolters: Hit 2/3, Wound 1/3, Failed Save 1/3 for a 2/27 effectiveness. Yeah... not a whole lot better.

Assault Cannons: Hit 2/3 ((Wound 1/3, Failed Save 1/3) + Wound 1/6 no save) = 5/27. Not great. Five shots averages you less than one wound.

Autocannons: Hit 2/3, Wound 2/3, Failed Save 1/3 = 4/27. 7 shots to average one wound.

Relic Blade: Hit two times to average one wound. Good, but that means 12 total hits to get your six.

Plasma Gun/Pistol: Hit 2/3, Wound 2/3 = 4/9 effectiveness. Somewhat less than 50% effective.

Lascannon/Meltagun/Multimelta/Krak: Hit 2/3, Wound 5/6. Somewhat more than 50% effective.

Powerfist/Thunderhammer: 5 out of every 6 power fist HITS should wound.

 

When looking at template weapons, you're pretty safe with putting the small blasts into the same category as a similar S/AP weapon, while making the large blast weapons slightly more expensive.

 

What this really means though is that you need 12 shots from the really big guns to reliably take down one of the really big bugs, or a reasonably sized squad of terminators or assault terminators to get them in hand to hand. Volume of fire from smaller weapons is NOT a viable option for the most part, and should be avoided if there are any other reasonable targets available. Tarpitting with sacrificial units to slow advance and to keep things like Tervigons off of your objectives should be considered, or even using a rhino or two to block straight line paths to objectives is a viable tactic.

 

From a Killhammer perspective, as potent and awesome as these big bugs are, their overall (D)efense is way too high to be a good target unless the current (S)ituation merits them being brought down. And when you do finally start shooting at them, don't play around, bring every big gun that you have to the party and reach out and touch them with every small one you can muster.

 

Oh, and accept that you are going to lose units wholesale if things don't go your way. Just try and minimize that sort of damage through deployment, maneuver, and force selection.

[minigun762]

Relic Blade: Hit two times to average one wound. Good, but that means 12 total hits to get your six.

Plasma Gun/Pistol: Hit 2/3, Wound 2/3 = 4/9 effectiveness. Somewhat less than 50% effective.

Lascannon/Meltagun/Multimelta/Krak: Hit 2/3, Wound 5/6. Somewhat more than 50% effective.

Powerfist/Thunderhammer: 5 out of every 6 power fist HITS should wound.

 

Weapon-wise, this means we're limited to heavy anti-tank choices at range, followed up by heavy anti-tank in close combat. The difficult thing will be that unlike armor, we can't rely on Melta weapon's bonuses for easier kills.

 

Considering how fast the new Tyranids are, how effective do we feel that a firebase unit(s) will be?

[Koremu]

Oh, and this should be explicitly said; Sternguard are very very useful.

 

I realise that we don't really need to further promote Sternguard, but they are really really handy.

 

With an AP for every occasion, they are perfectly suited to dealing with the mutable T and Sv of 'nid targets.

[LardO'Blood]

Oh, and this should be explicitly said; Sternguard are very very useful.

 

I realise that we don't really need to further promote Sternguard, but they are really really handy.

 

With an AP for every occasion, they are perfectly suited to dealing with the mutable T and Sv of 'nid targets.

I would like to second this, they are EXTREMELY useful against the new tyranids, especially against Hive Tyrants/Guards and Carnifexes.

[DarkGuard]

Oh, and this should be explicitly said; Sternguard are very very useful.

 

I realise that we don't really need to further promote Sternguard, but they are really really handy.

 

With an AP for every occasion, they are perfectly suited to dealing with the mutable T and Sv of 'nid targets.

I would like to second this, they are EXTREMELY useful against the new tyranids, especially against Hive Tyrants/Guards and Carnifexes.

 

I also agree with this, you've got:

 

Hellfire - standard, little bugs out of cover, big bugs (volume of fire)

Dragonfire - little bugs in cover

Kraken - sitting back and shooting at range and mid range bugs

Vengeance - literally nothing IMO, anything with a 3+ save will need a 5/6 to wound, hellfire would be the better option.

 

Also, good post Warp Angel, I think I'd agree with everything you have to say. Look forward to hearing more from you when you do more playtesting with your friend.

[KhorneHunter57x]

Just a thought, but with the insane amount of Psykers in the codex, do any of you think that the Ordo Hereticus will regain favor with loyalist Marines? Here is my thought:

Take a Master of the Forge for 3+ Cover;

Take an allied Ordo H Inquisitor Lord with Hood, Retinue, and Hammer of the Witches; and

Take an allied Culexus Assassin.

 

Park the =][= in the tough cover, and use Hammer with the Culexus' Soulless ability.

 

 

What do you think?

[Warp Angel]

Well,

 

Got in a game last night against a player who didn't have any of the new units, and it was like I expected... the old ones weren't as potent as they used to be. I played fast and carelessly at 1500 points, and while I lost just about all of my troops by the end of turn 4 (game end), he had 3 warriors, a carnifex with two wounds, a broodlord and three four genestealer pals left to face 4 TH/SS termies, a LRC, Captain on bike with relic blade, Thunderfire, HB Typhoon, Vindicator, and three tacticals caught up in combat with the broodlord and crew.

 

Store was closing so we ended on a tie, but given the relative position of units, it's very unlikely that he would have been able to avoid annihilation before the end of turn five, definitely not by turn 6, and the odds of him keeping his stealers alive to score without being contested were almost zero.

 

Couple things to note:

 

Carnifexes that can reroll to hits are scary. I was thinking old school with leaving a combat squad with PF sergeant out to dry to try and tie up the last fex for a turn or two, but between his claws, talons, and other biomorphs, I took 6 wounds and lost the whole squad before the fist could swing back. Without the rerolls (we were speed playing that last turn), I successfully rolled two hits and two wounds and would have one combat because sarge would have still been standing.

 

Genestealers are still CC brutes and not having grenades doesn't hurt them that much against units that aren't strong in CC to begin with. The absurdly high WS means that you're hitting half the time, and they're saving a third of that (1/6 of your attacks are going to be unsaved wounds). The best model in the squad can't contribute attacks due to the Broodlord's power OR you suffer another -1 to LD and will almost certainly get run down by the genestealers.

 

To put things in perspective, a full tactical squad of 10 men and a lightning claw sergeant, in cover against a 7 man stealer squad (6+Broodlord) is going to inflict an average of 1 PW wound, and a little less than 1.5 basic wounds after saves. Assuming the broodlord takes one of those wounds, and two stealers die: The stealers are going to get about one unsaved wound/rend for every 5 attacks (a little higher for the broodlord), so you're going to lose 3 Marines on average dice. You tied combat, except for that psychic power that renders you at -1 LD. Don't roll an 8.

 

If the broodlord neutralizes the sergeant instead, you kill 2 genestealers and still lose combat by one - so kind of a wash in this scenario, but devastating with more than 7 stealers invovled. Without the benefits of terrain - you're losing by a lot more. Between being (S)coring and having high (K)illing power and weak shooting (D)efense, they're a high priority target if they're in a position that threatens you.

 

Warriors still have no business in hand to hand combat unless kitted out for it (boneswords). Their performance isn't a whole lot different from tactical Marines at the same points cost, and they suffer worse from power fists. Oh, and fearless isn't their friend if they should lose.

 

Overall, the army seems a lot less shooty, despite the new toys.

 

More to come later after I face Olesh tonight in our first real match, and his much more potent playstyle and army list.

[Koremu]

Everything seems to be a lot less defensive, overall. Carnifex are horrible at Init4 w/ Assault Grenades rerolling to hit and having STR10... and the fact that they are down a point of Toughness and a point of Sv compared to old 'fex really doesn't matter if it just got Podded next to your lines. You *have* to deal with the Carnifex, because otherwise it'll eat you. On the other hand, you can quite likely kill the 'fex with a wider range of shooting.

 

Mycetic Spores make a lot of the 'nid codex tempting as suicide units. for 150 points you can have 20 Deep Striking (scoring) gaunts in a MC that fires a STR5 Large Blast on the turn it lands. For something like 220 you can do the same but with a Carnifex!

 

Considering how everyone's whinging on some forums about them making Hormagaunts slower, the army as a whole has the capability to be frighteningly fast.

[ShinyRhino]

Genestealers are still CC brutes and not having grenades doesn't hurt them that much against units that aren't strong in CC to begin with. The absurdly high WS means that you're hitting half the time, and they're saving a third of that (1/6 of your attacks are going to be unsaved wounds). The best model in the squad can't contribute attacks due to the Broodlord's power OR you suffer another -1 to LD and will almost certainly get run down by the genestealers.

 

To put things in perspective, a full tactical squad of 10 men and a lightning claw sergeant, in cover against a 7 man stealer squad (6+Broodlord) is going to inflict an average of 1 PW wound, and a little less than 1.5 basic wounds after saves. Assuming the broodlord takes one of those wounds, and two stealers die: The stealers are going to get about one unsaved wound/rend for every 5 attacks (a little higher for the broodlord), so you're going to lose 3 Marines on average dice. You tied combat, except for that psychic power that renders you at -1 LD. Don't roll an 8.

 

If the broodlord neutralizes the sergeant instead, you kill 2 genestealers and still lose combat by one - so kind of a wash in this scenario, but devastating with more than 7 stealers invovled. Without the benefits of terrain - you're losing by a lot more. Between being (S)coring and having high (K)illing power and weak shooting (D)efense, they're a high priority target if they're in a position that threatens you.

 

I still maintain that it should be difficult for the Broodlord to base your sergeants. Sergeants are not ICs, and therefore have no business at the periphery of a squad anyways. Block the shortest route into combat with even ONE grunt model, and the Broodlord isn't basing your sergeant.

[Giga]

Warp Angel gives a good rundown of weapons there.

 

The way I see it, in the following months we will face lots of new nid lists that look something like this;

 

- a couple tervigons

- one or more trygons/mawlocs

- some termagants just to satisfy the necessary troops

- a bunch of footslogging monstrous creatures such as tooled up tyrants, old one eye, swarmlord, tyrannofex, carnifexes etc.

- zoanthropes in drop pods

- some players will likely add deathleaper for anti-psyker capability

 

The idea with these lists will be that zoanthropes come down to kill dangerous vehicles such as land raiders or leman russ squadrons, the tervigons provide a neverending supply of easy-to-kill scoring units, and the monstrous creatures are supposed to overload the opponent's anti-MC department the way old nidzilla used to do.

 

The way I see it, us vanilla marines aren't gonna be bothered too much with these armies. As long as we keep our proper balance of anti-infantry (rapid firing and flamers, namely) and anti-tank/MC, we should be able to deal with most of this stuff. Focus firing certain monsters would be the order of the day, just as it was before. The new zoanthropes provide one more good reason to take librarians in all-comers lists.

 

Some proper targetting will be important. I can already imagine lots of marine players panicking when a trygon pops up near their vehicles, and then shooting it while the rest of the nid army approaches. The way I plan to do it is to simply unload my th/ss termies and kill the trygon with them, while the rest of my army keeps pounding the incoming nids with long range fire. Same about zoanthropes. They have a 3++ save. All it takes is to cast nullzone and rapid fire the hell out of them with tacticals or sternguard, while high str stuff keeps shooting at the incoming MCs.

 

Basically, it'll be a lot more fun, because it will no longer be the old tactic of playing refused flank and shooting the nids as they come, and then around turn 3 or 4 going in and rapid firing/assaulting whatever has managed to get in your deployment zone. With all this deepstriking, we can expect the entire marine army to be doing something useful as early as turn 2.

[The Black Watch]

Some interesting points there Giga. I myself would field an army something like this at 1500pts:

 

CC Hive Tyrant,

Tyranid Alpha,

CC Tyranid Warrior brood,

Ranged Tyranid Warrior brood,

3x20 Hormagaunt broods with poisoned (4+)

Venomthrope Brood

Hive Guard Brood

Doom of Malan'tai OR Zoanthrope Brood

CC Carnifex

 

I really don't like termagaunts! As Nid-Noob I've no idea if this is good but against marines my plan would be to get the hormagaunts in combat as quickly as possible to prevent shooting at my MC's. Even if they take 2 turns to do that, 60 gaunts is a lot of targets.

[Giga]

CC Hive Tyrant,

Tyranid Alpha,

CC Tyranid Warrior brood,

Ranged Tyranid Warrior brood,

3x20 Hormagaunt broods with poisoned (4+)

Venomthrope Brood

Hive Guard Brood

Doom of Malan'tai OR Zoanthrope Brood

CC Carnifex

I don't like that list. I feel that many lists out there would plain walk all over it simply because it relies too much on warriors and very short range shooting.

 

The way I see it, it would get owned by stuff like guard (imagine getting pounded by str 8 ap 3 battlecannons as you try to move into charge range, and then having your hormagaunts meet the fast little flamer tanks whose name I can't remember at the moment), vulkan armies, dual lash, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

As a marine player, I am not at all worried about the new warriors. Sure, they have 3 wounds, but they get dominated by str 8 or higher, and apart from boneswords they're still not too good in CC. Just about the only good use I can think of for them is to work as anti-thunderwolf cavarly and anti-nobz unit, since boneswords would be really useful against those units.

[The Black Watch]

I don't like that list. I feel that many lists out there would plain walk all over it simply because it relies too much on warriors and very short range shooting.

 

The way I see it, it would get owned by stuff like guard (imagine getting pounded by str 8 ap 3 battlecannons as you try to move into charge range, and then having your hormagaunts meet the fast little flamer tanks whose name I can't remember at the moment), vulkan armies, dual lash, etc.

Really? Well there's only one way to find out I guess. My regular opponent is CSM and he's just starting an IG army so maybe I'll get totally destroyed. For, a Nid army is about masses of fast gaunts and trying to get into CC. I really don't like Nid armies with lots of shooting. Might as well just get Tau. I'm determined to make the above list work.

 

Sure, I might have to suffer 2-3 turns of horrible shooting, but after that, the game is mine! Especially if I got pods for the gaunts.

[minigun762]

- a couple tervigons

- one or more trygons/mawlocs

- some termagants just to satisfy the necessary troops

- a bunch of footslogging monstrous creatures such as tooled up tyrants, old one eye, swarmlord, tyrannofex, carnifexes etc.

- zoanthropes in drop pods

- some players will likely add deathleaper for anti-psyker capability

 

I agree with a few changes.

I think Hive Guards will be used more often then Zoas because they are better at knocking out the transports that are so common. Most armies will probably use both, with Hive Guard working like Oblits and Zoas/Pods working like Termicide units.

 

I'm hearing very scary things about both Hormogaunts and Genestealers. That might be the big difference between lists with Nidzilla v2.0 will use Tervigons/Termagaunts as troops and Speedy Tyranids will use Genestealers/Hormogaunts as troops

 

The most common things we're going to see in Pods will probably be:

#1 = Zoas

#2 = Screamer-Carnifex

#3 = Alpha Warrior/Warrior combo

[The Black Watch]

Another thing to consider is synapse. I didn't have the old codex so not sure how it worked but if a unit is not in synapse at the start of the turn it must take a leadership test. If it fails it reverts to its instinctive behaviour (feed/lurk). Now hormagaunts are feed which basically gives them rage. Since rage pretty much describes what I'd be doing with them anyway is this really an issue?

 

The only major downside to being outside synapse is no longer being fearless. Since none of the synapse creatures have fleet, they're going to find themselves creating a gap anyway as they advance.

[The Black Watch]

Warriors still have no business in hand to hand combat unless kitted out for it (boneswords). Their performance isn't a whole lot different from tactical Marines at the same points cost, and they suffer worse from power fists. Oh, and fearless isn't their friend if they should lose.

Are you sure about this? I mean they are WS5 and have A3. Plus re-roll any 'to-hits' of '1' and can swap their guns for rending claws for no points. They can also have poisoned (4+) and/or furious charge and have 3 wounds.

 

Maybe my tactical squads are just unlucky, but last night a unit of CSM's charged into my tactical squad and slaughtered them over 2 rounds of combat. I only caused one wound in return and my sergeant failed to hit at all with his power fist. In my experience, tactical squads are rubbish in cc. And given that Tyranid Warriors are better than CSM's in most ways (except their squad size) they would scare me a lot.

 

Yeah, power fists can cause instant death, but how many of those are you going to land when you only get 2 attacks?

[Koremu]

Another thing to consider is synapse. I didn't have the old codex so not sure how it worked but if a unit is not in synapse at the start of the turn it must take a leadership test. If it fails it reverts to its instinctive behaviour (feed/lurk). Now hormagaunts are feed which basically gives them rage. Since rage pretty much describes what I'd be doing with them anyway is this really an issue?

 

The only major downside to being outside synapse is no longer being fearless. Since none of the synapse creatures have fleet, they're going to find themselves creating a gap anyway as they advance.

You bet you it's an issue. Once the Rhinos have dropped their Tactical Squads off wherever I need them, they make for perfect distractions for Synapse-less Tyranid critters I don't want to engage. Even if they have STR4, they still require 6s to hit, 6s to glance.

 

Plus, once they are out of synapse range, I'll be Tank Shocking and leading them off away from the rest of the 'nids.

 

Remember as well that Rage is closest visible target. Walls are your friends.

[Gornall]

All it takes is one to swing combat resolution pretty heavily. If you get unlucky and 2 PF attacks land.... GG.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Warriors own in close-combat, and here's why; lash whip+bonesword. And yeah, they have the option of a deathspitter (which is fairly decent for a gun) or scything talons (always fun to get re-rolls to 1's) as backup. You then attach your Tyranid Prime (also packing lash whip+bonesword, probably toxin sacs as well). You then laugh if anything tries to attack you in combat, as they'll all be at I1. Meanwhile, you're hacking their faces open with 3-4 x power weapon attacks (with Leadership test for multi-wound targets) per model, all at WS6. If you have to take down a Wraithlord or close-combat character, Prime has you covered with a 4+ to wound always and that handy Leadership test if the enemy doesn't die from sheer wounds.

 

Same thing applies to Tyrants, they come with lash whip+bonesword standard. In both cases, your Assault Marines or Bikers are useless, you need stormhammers (and they'll be too busy slapping down Mawlocks and Trygons).

[SpecialIssue]

For warriors: dakka them, then! T-fire cannons, sternguard, ML devastators, landspeeder typhoons, and heavy bolters, whirlwinds as second choice.

I'm actually not that worried about the hive tyrant or carnifex- with only 3+ armour , T6 and 4 wounds, my two landspeeder typhoons could concievably take one MC a turn with 4 krak missiles, and tac squad MLs and sternguard finishing off any shots that fail, while deathstar termies deal with other big gribblies.

[Giga]

I wouldn't waste time dakkaing the warriors. Dakka is better left for 1W things like gaunts and the like. Warriors would be best dealt with through sheer instant-death, and us marines thankfully have lots of that. :D

 

Missile launchers, meltas, cyclone missile launchers, typhoon missile launchers, multimetlas, orbital bombardment, th/ss termies, power fists, etc. will all do a good job.

 

BTW, are boneswords power weapons or regular?

[Koremu]

Power. And remember that upgraded, they can have furious charge and poisoned (4+). And re-roll 1s to hit in CC. And have a drop pod.

 

You remember what I was saying earlier about 'nids and the "OMG kill it NOW" factor?