Bug Hunting

[Fintan]

I dunno.

 

5 tactical termies with cyclone cost 230 pts.

 

Let's say they assault a trygon. It has 6 attacks, at str 6 and ws4. That's on average 3 wounds and 2-3 dead termies. They reply with 6-9 power fist attacks, resulting in 3-4.5 wounds. Trygon lives. Even if one of them survives in the next assault phase and kills it, it's still not effective enough in my opinion.

 

Odds become even worse against things like warptime daemon princes, hive tyrants with guard, units with a bunch of power weapons (like banshees), etc.

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I think tactical terminators are an okay unit. I just think that they aren't good enough when attacked by armor-ignoring stuff, which is sadly plentiful in the new nid dex.

 

Bad example, you're demonstrating using the tactical terminators as you would use your assault terminators. The entire point of taking tactical terminators is to get a few rounds of powerful shooting off before you make the assault. A unit that could decimate units of Genestealers, insta-pop Warriors or take wounds off MC's at range and still kill a Trygon in close combat is fine by me.

[Koremu]

With shooty termis, you'd be better off camping cover to force the Trygon to assault you at Init 1 as well, rather than assaulting a high-init MC.

[Giga]

Problem with tactical terminators is their shooting isn't powerful enough for the points + they get destroyed by all sorts of stuff, from mass shooting to low AP shots. Using them like th/ss termies is wrong, but then there comes a time when one needs to smack something big and/or very dangerous in assault (that's what those power fists are for!), and tac termies just don't do good enough for their price.

 

 

 

 

I myself find tact terms are rather good against marine armies such as BA, vanilla, black templars, etc.

[Fintan]

Disagree, their shooting is actually rather good! Being able to move forward and fire a hail of bolter fire at 24 inches and a couple of missles a turn is rather good in my book. The main reason I like them is their flexibility, if I was playing against yourself I'd slag your landraider within the first two turns and avoiding your footslogging assault termies would suddenly become a hell of a lot easier, hell, I wouldn't even need to focus all my fire on it. With tactical terminators, there's no need to even buy a landraider. Flexibility is key and assault terminators are too much of a one-trick pony for me, if their landraider survives they smash stuff, if they don't, they walk around the battlefield occasionally eating a hundred points that I can afford to sacrifice. Tactical terminators are good *enough* when it comes to the close combat crunch, obviously not as good as assault terminators but the advantages outweigh the lack of 2 points of invulnerable save imo.

[mindfire]

One thing I noticed after going through the new Nids dex was the various ways they can affect a unit's leadership. The Deathleaper can inflict a -d3 modifier to a unit's leadership and Broodlords have a psychic power that gives every unit within 12" a -1 modifier. To top this off, it explicitly states that the power stacks if you get hit by multiple broodlords.

 

From what I have heard, it seems that genestealers and their broodlord buddies will remain a popular choice. The deathleaper seems less likely to be fielded, if only because he has such strong competition in the elites category. However, I think this combo could be a pretty solid way to shut down a psycher for at least a turn. It also seems to be an effective way to neutralize a special character that lets others use their leadership value.

 

As an aside, if it was able to be pulled off, this combo would be a nice catalyst to the Hive Tyrant's Psychic Scream power.

[Br.Pat]

Not sure if external links are allowed, by this is a pretty good first impression:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbKxjIC-maw

[Giga]

Disagree, their shooting is actually rather good! Being able to move forward and fire a hail of bolter fire at 24 inches and a couple of missles a turn is rather good in my book.

By a "hail of bolter fire" you mean 10 bolter shots and 2 krak missiles from a 230 pts unit?

 

Sorry, from my own experience fighting with and against tactical terminators, they're rather easy to neutralize, while their firepower isn't anything stellar. A tac squad with a combiflamer has considerably better anti-infantry capabilities.

 

But as I said, their firepower is rather useful against footslogging marine armies, such as BA, bike armies, deathwing, etc. since they can rack up some kills while being low on the opponent's priorities.

The main reason I like them is their flexibility, if I was playing against yourself I'd slag your landraider within the first two turns and avoiding your footslogging assault termies would suddenly become a hell of a lot easier, hell, I wouldn't even need to focus all my fire on it.

Hahaha, not to get into a theoryhammer version of "my dad is stronger then your dad", but I've heard LOTS of people talk how immobilizing/destroying a land raider (or a speeder squadron, or a mm attack bike squadron, or a tactical squad, etc.) is oh-so-easy and can be done reliably in turn 1, yet to this day I've never seen it done like that. I've seen it (rarely) taken out with lucky shots, and I've seen it surviving a hail of melta and lascannon fire with nothing ever happening to it. From my own experience, in 9 times out of 10, it lives long enough to accomplish its purpose.

 

Just to make a comparison, there are reliable ways to deal with rhinos. A dual TL-autocannon dreadnought, when shooting at a rhino, is almost 100% sure to do stop it from moving somehow (stun, immobilize, destroy). There is no reliable way to deal with a land raider outside of melta, and melta means you're going to get assaulted by the th/ss termies next turn.

With tactical terminators, there's no need to even buy a landraider. Flexibility is key and assault terminators are too much of a one-trick pony for me, if their landraider survives they smash stuff, if they don't, they walk around the battlefield occasionally eating a hundred points that I can afford to sacrifice. Tactical terminators are good *enough* when it comes to the close combat crunch, obviously not as good as assault terminators but the advantages outweigh the lack of 2 points of invulnerable save imo.

You're using your th/ss termies wrong, then.

 

The point of th/ss termies isn't simply to go in and crunch stuff. The threat of them is psychological. You can use them to dictate the way the battlefield moves regardless of whether their land raider is immobilized/destroyed or not. They can be used as a defensive unit as well as offensive. They don't have to kill their worth in points to be useful.

 

But as I always say, if tactical termies work for you and you feel th/ss termies don't, then you should use tactical termies. Playstyle & metagame > generic internet advice.

[Fintan]

Disagree, their shooting is actually rather good! Being able to move forward and fire a hail of bolter fire at 24 inches and a couple of missles a turn is rather good in my book.

By a "hail of bolter fire" you mean 10 bolter shots and 2 krak missiles from a 230 pts unit?

 

A turn, whilst also still being powerful in close combat. Chances are you're going to get 2-3 turns of shooting off a game with tactical terminators which suddenly equates to a fair bit of dakka!

 

Hahaha, not to get into a theoryhammer version of "my dad is stronger then your dad", but I've heard LOTS of people talk how immobilizing/destroying a land raider (or a speeder squadron, or a mm attack bike squadron, or a tactical squad, etc.) is oh-so-easy and can be done reliably in turn 1, yet to this day I've never seen it done like that. I've seen it (rarely) taken out with lucky shots, and I've seen it surviving a hail of melta and lascannon fire with nothing ever happening to it. From my own experience, in 9 times out of 10, it lives long enough to accomplish its purpose.

 

I find that odd, I've not yet lost to an army that contained a Landraider, they're seriously not that difficult to crack! Pretty tricky to take out in turn one unless you have a decent number of lascannons but in turn two it's pretty much a done deal.

 

You're using your th/ss termies wrong, then.

 

The point of th/ss termies isn't simply to go in and crunch stuff. The threat of them is psychological. You can use them to dictate the way the battlefield moves regardless of whether their land raider is immobilized/destroyed or not. They can be used as a defensive unit as well as offensive. They don't have to kill their worth in points to be useful.

 

Not much of a psychological threat if you have expendable units, which all of mine are, without your hammer your army falls apart, each and every part of a list I make is important and expendable at the same time, Spartan actually makes pretty similar lists to my own from what I've seen! If I pop your Landraider it's either a lucky shot from a lascannon or an Attack Bike/Speeder and yes they will be in assault range. Do I mind? No, go for it, if I've popped your Raider and let you assault my sub-100pt anti-tank unit then I'm dictating the flow of battle, not you.

 

But as I always say, if tactical termies work for you and you feel th/ss termies don't, then you should use tactical termies. Playstyle & metagame > generic internet advice.

 

Completely agree, just explaining things from the point of our own little meta-game in Macclesfield. :P

[Giga]

So I played against new nids in a mini-tournament today.

 

It was 1750, the guy had swarmlord+3 tyrant guards, a big unit of hormagaunts with poisoned attacks, a big unit of spinegaunts, a tervigon, 3 zoanthropes, two 12 men units of genestealers (one with broodlord upgrade), and 3 biovores. I played my all-comers pedro+libby list. It was kill points. I won 6:5, though it could've easily been 7:5 if I didn't roll snake eyes when I shot two multimeltas at the last biovore in 5th turn.

 

My initial experience is that swarmlord absolutely shouldn't be engaged in close combat. It killed 5 th/ss termies, a libby, and 5 tactical marines, and still had 2 wounds leftover. It's very powerful but since, with guard, it costs 460 pts, I guess that's okay.

 

Genestealers are still as weak as they always were. They outflanked, killed a rhino and a predator, and got killed in a single rapid fire shooting phase. Hormagaunts are now much better against monstrous creatures and hordes, but they're still pretty crappy against marines. Biovores are rather nice, considering 3 of them cost only 135 pts. They don't hit much, but when they do they can force the enemy to throw some saves - rather like a whirlwind. Spinegaunts are as crappy as always.

 

Zoanthropes die VERY easily, especially if you got null zone going. I killed all 3 of his zoans before they got to shoot at all. Krak missiles, lascannons, and rapid fire really tear them apart. Tervigon didn't do much. It gave FNP to some gaunts, and it gave me a kill point, and that's about all it did.

 

 

 

 

 

Granted, I'm yet to start dealing with all the dangerous new bugs (tyrannofexes, trygons, hive guard etc.) but so far as I can see the new nid dex doesn't strike me as overpowered or weak. It'll take some time to get used to it, but on the whole it's not much different. Not nearly as different as people on the internet seem to think.

[minigun762]

My initial experience is that swarmlord absolutely shouldn't be engaged in close combat. It killed 5 th/ss termies, a libby, and 5 tactical marines, and still had 2 wounds leftover. It's very powerful but since, with guard, it costs 460 pts, I guess that's okay.

 

Looking over the Tyrant Guard and Swarmlord's rules again I'd have to agree. I don't see anything short of 10+ TH/SS Terminators + HQ unit getting anywhere with it in HtH Combat.

 

It is actually one of those case where a Chaplain's Reroll ability seem very helpful (if you can get the charge). Otherwise a buried Librarian with Null Zone is the best bet for a long battle.

 

I can see SW doing a good job against it actually, spamming Missile Long Fangs backed up by TL Lascannons Razorbacks seems like a good way to put alot of wounds on on the squad really fast. At most the squad would have 11 T6 wounds. That means it would take 21 Krak Missiles to knock it out.

 

EDIT:

It looks like I finally found a unit that would require 10 Chaos Terminators, each with a Combi-Plasma.

20 shots = 13 hits = 9 wounds, so the unit is actually still alive on average.

[Giga]

The way I see it, the best way to deal with it is to shoot the crap out of it with missile launchers, multimeltas, and lascannons until it gets close to you.

 

Dawn of war and pitched battle deployments are good for this, as in those we'll usually have 2 or maybe even 3 turns of shooting at the swarmlord before it gets anywhere near charge range. This way, some or all of the tyrant guard will be dead from shooting, and the swarmlord itself will probably have lost a wound or two, as well.

 

At this point just pop null zone and charge him with 5 th/ss termies. One or two termies will die on average, and then the rest of them should be able to take him down over one or two assault phases. That's the way I intend to deal with him myself over the course of the next battles, anyway.

 

On the other hand, I think a squadron of 3 typhoons might be the stuff of swarmlord's nightmares. :)

 

EDIT: It's worth to note that, for all its uberness, the swarmlord can still only kill 4 models at most per turn (5 on charge), making me wonder whether he's really worth it, considering the point cost. I guess his psychic powers, higher synapse range, and survivability make up for it, though?

[Gornall]

I think he provides a serious hammer unit that Nids lack to counter things like Nobs, TWC, and TH/SS Termies... things that would eat the lesser MCs in a heartbeat. That and he has some nice synergy that can be exploited through his ability to add to reserves, reroll outflankers, pop off pyschic powers (less useful since he should be running or in CC a lot of the time), and buff a unit. I think he works very well with outflanking genestealers or even Gargoyles (18" synapse and a 12" single preferred enemy buff")

[minigun762]

At this point just pop null zone and charge him with 5 th/ss termies. One or two termies will die on average, and then the rest of them should be able to take him down over one or two assault phases. That's the way I intend to deal with him myself over the course of the next battles, anyway.

My biggest worry about TH/SS Terminators is that they're only hitting on 5's. That sucks alot.

 

EDIT: It's worth to note that, for all its uberness, the swarmlord can still only kill 4 models at most per turn (5 on charge), making me wonder whether he's really worth it, considering the point cost. I guess his psychic powers, higher synapse range, and survivability make up for it, though?

 

I agree with Gornall, he's one of the biggest baddie in HtH so he keeps other assault units from just running over your little guys.

[Koremu]

Don't forget the Tyrant Guard. Those guys are WS5 S5 I4 and can be upgraded to carry a Bonesword. Not nice...

[Giga]

My biggest worry about TH/SS Terminators is that they're only hitting on 5's. That sucks alot.

There are ways to circumvent this.

 

Pedro's aura gives them an additional attack. Vulkan allows one reroll to hit per terminator. With nullzone, they do more telling damage then they would otherwise. The swarmlord should be at 2-3 wounds left when the termies assault him, and should die in that one assault phase.

 

That's of course an optimal scenario. Another option, as crazy as that may sound, is to simply ignore him and assault/shoot the other parts of the swarm (particularly in kill-points missions). Despite his anti-infantry/MC awesomeness, the swarmlord only has 5 attacks and str6, which means he isn't exactly perfect when it comes to killing speeding vehicles.

[Gornall]

Depends on how many get to direct their attacks at Swarmlord versus the Guards. Math hammer says that a single Pedro Hammernator (slightly better than a Vulkan one) will inflict 1.1 wounds BEFORE invulnerable saves. So if you're not running Nullzone that's .55 wounds per surviving Hammernator based against Swarmlord. With Nullzone it goes up to .825 wounds. So absolute best case scenario, you're looking at needing 3 surviving TH/SS Termies that are based against Swarmlord to take the last 2 wounds off of him. I'd say you're better off ignoring him if you can or just shoot the heck out of him.

[Br.Pat]

Disagree, their shooting is actually rather good! Being able to move forward and fire a hail of bolter fire at 24 inches and a couple of missles a turn is rather good in my book.

By a "hail of bolter fire" you mean 10 bolter shots and 2 krak missiles from a 230 pts unit?

 

Sorry, from my own experience fighting with and against tactical terminators, they're rather easy to neutralize, while their firepower isn't anything stellar. A tac squad with a combiflamer has considerably better anti-infantry capabilities.

 

But as I said, their firepower is rather useful against footslogging marine armies, such as BA, bike armies, deathwing, etc. since they can rack up some kills while being low on the opponent's priorities.

The main reason I like them is their flexibility, if I was playing against yourself I'd slag your landraider within the first two turns and avoiding your footslogging assault termies would suddenly become a hell of a lot easier, hell, I wouldn't even need to focus all my fire on it.

Hahaha, not to get into a theoryhammer version of "my dad is stronger then your dad", but I've heard LOTS of people talk how immobilizing/destroying a land raider (or a speeder squadron, or a mm attack bike squadron, or a tactical squad, etc.) is oh-so-easy and can be done reliably in turn 1, yet to this day I've never seen it done like that. I've seen it (rarely) taken out with lucky shots, and I've seen it surviving a hail of melta and lascannon fire with nothing ever happening to it. From my own experience, in 9 times out of 10, it lives long enough to accomplish its purpose.

 

Just to make a comparison, there are reliable ways to deal with rhinos. A dual TL-autocannon dreadnought, when shooting at a rhino, is almost 100% sure to do stop it from moving somehow (stun, immobilize, destroy). There is no reliable way to deal with a land raider outside of melta, and melta means you're going to get assaulted by the th/ss termies next turn.

With tactical terminators, there's no need to even buy a landraider. Flexibility is key and assault terminators are too much of a one-trick pony for me, if their landraider survives they smash stuff, if they don't, they walk around the battlefield occasionally eating a hundred points that I can afford to sacrifice. Tactical terminators are good *enough* when it comes to the close combat crunch, obviously not as good as assault terminators but the advantages outweigh the lack of 2 points of invulnerable save imo.

You're using your th/ss termies wrong, then.

 

The point of th/ss termies isn't simply to go in and crunch stuff. The threat of them is psychological. You can use them to dictate the way the battlefield moves regardless of whether their land raider is immobilized/destroyed or not. They can be used as a defensive unit as well as offensive. They don't have to kill their worth in points to be useful.

 

But as I always say, if tactical termies work for you and you feel th/ss termies don't, then you should use tactical termies. Playstyle & metagame > generic internet advice.

 

 

And lets say you had to face an army with a Land Raider -and- two Vindicators closing in on your lines? Target priority gets a bit more tricky. And no... Land Raiders are tough to crack. In my last National Tournament it only was destroyed once in 4 games, and that's because it was assaulted by an Eldar Avatar if I remember. I once faced a Dark Eldar list with 8 or 9 lances. Wasn't destroyed. My brother plays Tau, and he has a hard time taking it out. Half the time your forces are spread out too thinly to use all your heavy weapons against one unit anyway.

 

I simply do not understand Tactical Terminators. The only way you can get something out of them is if you field them in lager units where 20 mobile storm bolter shots actually becomes pretty handy. But that's not viable in oh say 1500 points. Or maybe only slightly. They die too easily in close combat to be effective against anything other than non-cc MEQs.

[Giga]

So I've gotten the new nid codex yesterday, and have been reading it quite a bit. Here's what caught my attention from the purely competitive point of view;

 

Old One Eye - this guy seems incredibly overpriced for what he does, as far as I'm concerned. It's T6, W4 and 3+ save. The only thing that makes it better then a standard close combat fex is that it regenerates on 5+ and that it has base str10. To me, this is quite moronic, as it means that (against me, anyway) it's going to die in one turn, before it ever gets to use its regeneration, let alone actually get into charge range. That it costs more then a land raider and takes up a heavy support slot is utterly ludicrous. I don't think we'll be seeing him in tournaments much.

 

Trygon - its starting cost is the same as 5 th/ss terminators. I was expecting it to be used as a nice unit that draws firepower away from the rest of the army for a turn, and that its real purpose would reside in the tunnel it makes. However, units arriving from this tunnel CANNOT ASSAULT. This, IMHO, means myceptic spores do everything the tunnel does, only better. So far, I have no clue why anyone would take a trygon, unless they were running a heavily outflanking/deepstriking force, and even then the trygon is safely murdered in a single assault from th/ss termies (on average it'll kill one terminator before its hammered to a pulp). Footslogging it wont work either, as its so huge it'll never get a cover save, meaning its extra vulnerable.

 

Mawloc - you know that str 6 ap 2 pieplate it hits you with when it comes out of the ground? Well, the only way for it to do this is if it SCATTERS on enemy units. In other words, 33% of the time it'll roll a hit and not do any damage (as it can't deep strike directly onto enemy models), and the rest of the time the nid player will be praying for it to scatter on top of enemy models. There is no reliable way to use this pieplate, making me wonder whats the whole point of the mawloc, seeing as without its pieplate its just a gimped version of a trygon (minus the tunnel).

 

Pyrovore & Venomthrope - both units seem fun, but I honestly have no clue what's their purpose. The pyrovore is T4 W2 4+, meaning it dies from a krak missile, and then explodes the same as a vehicle does. Having a group of these near gaunts is a recipe for disaster, it seems. Venomthrope has a few interesting abilities, but it's T4 5+, so it dies faster then you can read this sentence. Cue easy kill points.

 

Hormagaunts - with adrenaline glands & toxin sacs these guys can totally fill an important niche while being scoring at the same time. Even better, if they got swarmlord he can give them furious charge (so they don't have to pay points for adrenaline glands). HEnce, they get str4 on charge and have poison that wounds on 4+. This means they reroll to-wound rolls against T4 or less, making them awesome horde/monstrous killers. However, we marines don't need to worry much about them, as rapid fire & flamers kill hormagaunts enmasse, and their assault still isn't all that dangerous to a powerarmored army.

 

Tyrannofex - its starting cost is higher then that of a land raider, and understandably so, seeing as on average it'll be hitting us once per turn with a str 10 ap4 shot. At T6 W6 2+, it's safe to assume we'll just have to ignore it most of the time since trying to shoot it from far away would probably result in the rest of the swarm getting closer safely. However, I do feel that tyrannofex might be an excellent target for combat scouts in a LSS. It has only ws3, so 5 of them charging it after shooting a combimelta and the like might at least be able to lock it down for a couple turns, which IMHO would justify their price.

 

Hive Guard - these guys have the same price as multimelta attack bikes, and something tells me us marines are going to hate them. That being said, their range is 24", so again the th/ss termies are gonna have a field day.

 

Parasite of Mortex - gonna be very annoying if you're playing white scars. The rest of us are just gonna instant-kill it with a single krak to the face. Again, I don't quite understand the purpose of something that costs more then 3 multimelta attack bikes and dies from a single str 8 shot.

 

Doom of Malan'tai - unless you subscribe to the idea that this guy can wound units in transports (ludicrous idea, but some tyranid players are actually trying to convince everyone that this is alright, even though it would mean Njal's storm then also hits units inside transports), I can't see much use for it against meched marines. It would surely rock against hordes, and it can ruin your day if your opponent gets lucky and blows up your transports before the doom arrives from reserve (it goes without saying it'll be used with a myceptic spore), but on the whole it seems like an easy kill point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I must admit that, from what I've seen so far, I'm not particularly impressed with the new codex. It's infinitely better and more fun then the old one, but in general I'm not exactly convinced it's anywhere near as strong as Cruddance's previous work (the 5th ed IG codex). As a vanilla player, I don't feel there's much in this new dex that will force me to considerably change my tactics against tyranids. The sheer lack of eternal warrior on them now even makes it ludicrously easy to take out entire broods of some creatures, and while they do have a few dangerous gimmicks (swarmlord!), it's nothing that needs superhuman effort to be dealt with. Needless to say, this is all just preliminary commentary and I'm probably quite wrong with a lot of this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I've only read the codex once so far, so I apologize if I made any mistakes or read some rules wrong.)

Depends on how many get to direct their attacks at Swarmlord versus the Guards. Math hammer says that a single Pedro Hammernator (slightly better than a Vulkan one) will inflict 1.1 wounds BEFORE invulnerable saves. So if you're not running Nullzone that's .55 wounds per surviving Hammernator based against Swarmlord. With Nullzone it goes up to .825 wounds. So absolute best case scenario, you're looking at needing 3 surviving TH/SS Termies that are based against Swarmlord to take the last 2 wounds off of him. I'd say you're better off ignoring him if you can or just shoot the heck out of him.

As I said, optimal scenario would be that all guards are dead from shooting, and the only thing left is the swarmlord itself at 2-3 wounds. Might seem like a lot to ask for, but it's an OPTIMAL scenario, after all, and I'm sure it could easily be done with a squadron of 3 typhoons directing their attention at the swarmlord & guards from turn 1. ;)

[Gornall]

People in my area are playing where the Maloc can target units with the DS. So just be aware. Also, the Parasite is an IC so should be flying with Gargoyles that will soak shots for him. Gargoyles will be something to fear IMO. 8 point flying, FC, poison (both 40k style and Fantasy style) models is not something to take lightly, especially if given preferred enemy. Trygons are simply faster Carnies with more attacks. They're better for shredding stuff like Rhinos, MEQs, and GEQs that Carnies are overkill on. It also has a decent shooting attack. While a single TH/SS unit can handle one, they can only be so many places at once.

 

I agree that in a lot of ways the Codex seems underwhelming, but the sheer amount of combos it is capable of is something to keep in mind. I think it's going to be like the Eldar codex where indivdiual units and models are so-so, but when you put them together, they can turn nasty.

[minigun762]

Trygon - its starting cost is the same as 5 th/ss terminators. I was expecting it to be used as a nice unit that draws firepower away from the rest of the army for a turn, and that its real purpose would reside in the tunnel it makes. However, units arriving from this tunnel CANNOT ASSAULT. This, IMHO, means myceptic spores do everything the tunnel does, only better. So far, I have no clue why anyone would take a trygon, unless they were running a heavily outflanking/deepstriking force, and even then the trygon is safely murdered in a single assault from th/ss termies (on average it'll kill one terminator before its hammered to a pulp). Footslogging it wont work either, as its so huge it'll never get a cover save, meaning its extra vulnerable.

 

I wouldn't underestimate the Trygon. Its alot more killy then a HtH Carnifex and I think it would give most Tyrants a run for their money. Remember its Fleet which is big.

 

It will actually kill closer to 2 on the charge, remember it hits on 3's and reroll's those missed attacks (twin Scy. Talons). 7 attacks = 5+ wounds before saves. The Pulse is also not too shabby, maybe not against Terminators but it helps force more saves. This means that you'll have 3 TH/SS to strike back, so 6 attacks = 3 hits = 3 wounds.

 

You could do Toxin Sacs for rerolls to wounds but with T6, thats not a huge bonus.

[Koremu]

The Trygon can't Instant Death.It's so much meat to a properly tooled up Captain.

[Gornall]

The Trygon can't Instant Death.It's so much meat to a properly tooled up Captain.

 

Yeah... the Trygon is a bully unit IMO. Hits lighter, more numerous stuff that can't hurt it as easily... that and poor Dreadnoughts (S7 and I5 on the charge). And yeah, fleet makes its much scarier. The Carnifex is more for stuff that needs the higher strength attacks such as ICs, Nobs, TWC (S10 on the charge), and LRs.

[The Black Watch]

Giga, I'm so amazed by your post I felt I had to reply. I have to say I disagree with many of your points.

 

Old One Eye - this guy seems incredibly overpriced for what he does, as far as I'm concerned. It's T6, W4 and 3+ save. The only thing that makes it better then a standard close combat fex is that it regenerates on 5+ and that it has base str10. To me, this is quite moronic, as it means that (against me, anyway) it's going to die in one turn, before it ever gets to use its regeneration, let alone actually get into charge range. That it costs more then a land raider and takes up a heavy support slot is utterly ludicrous. I don't think we'll be seeing him in tournaments much.

Yeah, I agree with this, he's far too expensive.

 

Trygon - its starting cost is the same as 5 th/ss terminators. I was expecting it to be used as a nice unit that draws firepower away from the rest of the army for a turn, and that its real purpose would reside in the tunnel it makes. However, units arriving from this tunnel CANNOT ASSAULT. This, IMHO, means myceptic spores do everything the tunnel does, only better. So far, I have no clue why anyone would take a trygon, unless they were running a heavily outflanking/deepstriking force, and even then the trygon is safely murdered in a single assault from th/ss termies (on average it'll kill one terminator before its hammered to a pulp). Footslogging it wont work either, as its so huge it'll never get a cover save, meaning its extra vulnerable.

Whilst the tunnel idea does fall down in practice, I still think the Trygon is an excellent CC unit. I also can't see how it is 'safely murdered' as you put it. Admittedly, the TH/SS unit is probably the best thing to take it down but that's if you can make it happen. Easier said than done and don't forget it has fleet.

 

Mawloc - you know that str 6 ap 2 pieplate it hits you with when it comes out of the ground? Well, the only way for it to do this is if it SCATTERS on enemy units. In other words, 33% of the time it'll roll a hit and not do any damage (as it can't deep strike directly onto enemy models), and the rest of the time the nid player will be praying for it to scatter on top of enemy models. There is no reliable way to use this pieplate, making me wonder whats the whole point of the mawloc, seeing as without its pieplate its just a gimped version of a trygon (minus the tunnel).

There isn't actually any RAW that says it can't DS onto enemy models. RAI obviously allows this (I know - RAI means nothing! :P ) but its a bit of a grey area right now. My regular opponent said he would definitely allow me to do this. Again, I know this means nothing - but if you were willing to spend 10 mins arguing the fact during a game, I think I'd politely refuse to play you again. I get sick of people trying to find ways to 'get out' of things. That said, the Mawloc is actually pretty average other than its ability to keep burrowing and re-emerging. But that means you get a S6 pie plate every other turn so the max you can use it is 3 times. I'll probably stick to trygons.

 

Pyrovore & Venomthrope - both units seem fun, but I honestly have no clue what's their purpose. The pyrovore is T4 W2 4+, meaning it dies from a krak missile, and then explodes the same as a vehicle does. Having a group of these near gaunts is a recipe for disaster, it seems. Venomthrope has a few interesting abilities, but it's T4 5+, so it dies faster then you can read this sentence. Cue easy kill points.

Pyrovore is rubbish I agree but the Venomthrope is essential for getting your broods across the board and making them difficult to assault. It all comes down to target priority - if you waste a turn taking out the Venom, you risk ignoring a large brood of hormagaunts who can usually charge in turn 2.

 

Hormagaunts - with adrenaline glands & toxin sacs these guys can totally fill an important niche while being scoring at the same time. Even better, if they got swarmlord he can give them furious charge (so they don't have to pay points for adrenaline glands). HEnce, they get str4 on charge and have poison that wounds on 4+. This means they reroll to-wound rolls against T4 or less, making them awesome horde/monstrous killers. However, we marines don't need to worry much about them, as rapid fire & flamers kill hormagaunts enmasse, and their assault still isn't all that dangerous to a powerarmored army.

Good points generally but if just 15 hormagaunts manage to charge - say a tactical squad - they're getting 45 attacks against your 11. Even with 4 to hit and 4 to wound, that's a fair number of saves to make and you're pretty certain to lose the combat. Hormagaunts have I5 which makes it tricky to successfully disengage.

 

Tyrannofex - its starting cost is higher then that of a land raider, and understandably so, seeing as on average it'll be hitting us once per turn with a str 10 ap4 shot. At T6 W6 2+, it's safe to assume we'll just have to ignore it most of the time since trying to shoot it from far away would probably result in the rest of the swarm getting closer safely. However, I do feel that tyrannofex might be an excellent target for combat scouts in a LSS. It has only ws3, so 5 of them charging it after shooting a combimelta and the like might at least be able to lock it down for a couple turns, which IMHO would justify their price.

Tyrannofex is way too expensive for what is essentially a BS3 big gun. You're paying for the W6 but since its going to be most effective at the back of table its probably better off just ignored.

 

Hive Guard - these guys have the same price as multimelta attack bikes, and something tells me us marines are going to hate them. That being said, their range is 24", so again the th/ss termies are gonna have a field day.

Hive Guard can be pretty scary. 24" range is their only real downside.

 

Parasite of Mortex - gonna be very annoying if you're playing white scars. The rest of us are just gonna instant-kill it with a single krak to the face. Again, I don't quite understand the purpose of something that costs more then 3 multimelta attack bikes and dies from a single str 8 shot.

As stated above, its an IC so you can hide it in a gaunt swarm. Psychologically quite scary too.

 

Doom of Malan'tai - unless you subscribe to the idea that this guy can wound units in transports (ludicrous idea, but some tyranid players are actually trying to convince everyone that this is alright, even though it would mean Njal's storm then also hits units inside transports), I can't see much use for it against meched marines. It would surely rock against hordes, and it can ruin your day if your opponent gets lucky and blows up your transports before the doom arrives from reserve (it goes without saying it'll be used with a myceptic spore), but on the whole it seems like an easy kill point.

Its actually not a ludicrous idea and Ferrus has argued the point in a massive topic on BoLS. I haven't seen any convincing evidence to suggest it wouldn't affect units inside a transport. Since its only got a 6" range its not too big a deal anyway. Just run away from it! :) Its big weakness is T4 but I'd still bet on it being a nightmare.

 

I must admit that, from what I've seen so far, I'm not particularly impressed with the new codex. It's infinitely better and more fun then the old one, but in general I'm not exactly convinced it's anywhere near as strong as Cruddance's previous work (the 5th ed IG codex). As a vanilla player, I don't feel there's much in this new dex that will force me to considerably change my tactics against tyranids. The sheer lack of eternal warrior on them now even makes it ludicrously easy to take out entire broods of some creatures, and while they do have a few dangerous gimmicks (swarmlord!), it's nothing that needs superhuman effort to be dealt with. Needless to say, this is all just preliminary commentary and I'm probably quite wrong with a lot of this.

Its nice to see someone who doesn't think the codex is overpowered. I don't think it is either and its a lot more fun than the old one with a much wider range of options. I still think there are some scary options in there but like everything the dice rule. There will be games when everything you've said will be true but equally you'll probably have the odd battle where the Doom kills everyone and despite your best efforts, you just can't instant kill that venomthrope. I think Cruddance has done an excellent job on this and the IG codex. I also think the key to defeating most Nid armies will be lots and lots of shooting before getting bogged down in CC.

 

Sorry for the extra long post but I felt Giga required a substantial response.

[Giga]

It will actually kill closer to 2 on the charge, remember it hits on 3's and reroll's those missed attacks (twin Scy. Talons). 7 attacks = 5+ wounds before saves. The Pulse is also not too shabby, maybe not against Terminators but it helps force more saves. This means that you'll have 3 TH/SS to strike back, so 6 attacks = 3 hits = 3 wounds.

Ah yes, you're right. I forgot it has a pair of scything talons. On the other hand, the termies will have 9-12 attacks (depending on how many of them survive). More if I have pedro nearby (which is usually what I do in all-comers lists), or Vulkan to reroll misses.

 

Either way, nothing to be particularly worried about.

Whilst the tunnel idea does fall down in practice, I still think the Trygon is an excellent CC unit. I also can't see how it is 'safely murdered' as you put it. Admittedly, the TH/SS unit is probably the best thing to take it down but that's if you can make it happen. Easier said than done and don't forget it has fleet.

Why shouldn't you be able to make it happen? The trygon will be DS-ing near my units (to enable it to charge next turn), and I usually position my army in such a way that the terminators can move with their LR to get into position to attack whatever they need to. It's the way I deal with drop pod marines, deep striking terminators, etc. and I see no reason why it shouldn't work with the trygon.

 

Likewise, the trygon is HUGE, so the chance for it to deep strike near my forces and retain a cover save is pretty slim, IMHO.

People in my area are playing where the Maloc can target units with the DS.

There isn't actually any RAW that says it can't DS onto enemy models.

The 5th ed rulebook rules for deep strike state clearly that you deepstrike by placing a model from the unit (or the mawloc itself, in this case) on the table, and then roll scatter dice. If you can't place the model on the table (and you can't place your models within 1" of enemy models, on top of other models, or on impassable terrain), then obviously the model can't deep strike at that particular spot.

 

So, unless it's a friendly game and we're just fooling around and have agreed on it beforehand, I'm afraid I'm not going to let my opponent DS on top of my models for any reason.

the Venomthrope is essential for getting your broods across the board and making them difficult to assault.

Well, if the cover save was 4+, then I would agree. But the cover save from the venomthrope is 5+, which is rather unreliable, and simply keeping the models within or behind terrain for that nifty 4+ cover save is IMHO a way better idea. Likewise, just obscuring your models with other, more expendable models, works way better then spending points on a venomthrope (an easy kill point to boot). The defensive grenades are a nice touch, but I can't really decide why the nids would need them. Their close combat units aren't something many people are going to dare to assault, and their shooty units are for the most part very weak and easily killed by close combat specialists.

Good points generally but if just 15 hormagaunts manage to charge - say a tactical squad - they're getting 45 attacks against your 11. Even with 4 to hit and 4 to wound, that's a fair number of saves to make and you're pretty certain to lose the combat. Hormagaunts have I5 which makes it tricky to successfully disengage.

Tactical squads horribly suck in close combat. They can be destroyed in assault by just about any troop choice short of Tau, Guardians, necrons, and IG.

 

Compare the said hormagaunts with CSM, gray hunters, or the upcoming BA. Now since the hormagaunts will be on assault, a smart player will place his CSM, GH, plague marines, zerkers etc. in terrain, forcing the hormagaunts to assault at I1 and to lose models before they even strike.

 

Hormagaunts are great against hordes and monstrous creatures, I feel, but I just don't think MEQ would worry too much about them.

Tyrannofex is way too expensive for what is essentially a BS3 big gun. You're paying for the W6 but since its going to be most effective at the back of table its probably better off just ignored.

It can pop monoliths and land raiders from 48" away, while being too tough to be taken out with any efficiency. I don't think it's overpriced.

As stated above, its an IC so you can hide it in a gaunt swarm. Psychologically quite scary too.

Indeed, forgot about that.

Its actually not a ludicrous idea and Ferrus has argued the point in a massive topic on BoLS. I haven't seen any convincing evidence to suggest it wouldn't affect units inside a transport. Since its only got a 6" range its not too big a deal anyway. Just run away from it! laugh.gif Its big weakness is T4 but I'd still bet on it being a nightmare.

The problem with this is that it's an accepted wisdom that transports protect embarked models from psychic powers.

 

I know the spirit leech isn't explicitly stated to be a psychic power, but that's obviously exactly what it is (it's used by a zoanthrope, for christ's sake!), and the same logic can be applied to Njal's storm effect (which, by Doom logic, should also damage units inside transports).

 

The problem isn't that the Doom could damage units in transports. The problem is that you can put it in a myceptic spore, and land next to 2 or 3 transports and slaughter a bunch of models just by being there. This, of itself, takes a lot of strategy away from the game, as it means you have a foolproof way of popping up before the opponent can do anything and slaughtering a ton of models, and that for a grand total of 130 pts.

 

Then there is the annoyance of the cover save. If models can get cover saves from the Doom's ability by being in area terrain or going to ground (spirit leech states you can't take armor saves, so invulnerable and cover saves are fine), then what cover save should we gain for being inside a rhino? A 2+ cover save is in order, IMHO, since they're 100% obscured.

 

It's really one big confusion with RAW. I rest assured GW is going to FAQ it and state simply that the doom (and Njal's storm) can't affect units inside transports, and that'll be the end of it. In a way, the general FAQ does this already, by stating that psychic powers CAN'T affect units inside transports, no matter whether they target them or not. That spirit leech and the storm aren't mentioned as psychic powers is only because they don't require a psychic test. They are obviously psychic powers in every other regard.

Its nice to see someone who doesn't think the codex is overpowered.

At this point, there's only one nid list I came up with that would make me very very scared, and then only because my all-comers lists would have trouble with it.

 

So, I honestly would find it laughable if someone started whining about the new codex being overpowered. I think it isn't. The swarmlord is the only thing that I feel would be semi-justifiable if people started whining about it, and that's mostly because it's so all-around powerful that bad players will be unable to deal with him and will probably cry cheese on reflex, but that's to be expected.

There will be games when everything you've said will be true but equally you'll probably have the odd battle where the Doom kills everyone and despite your best efforts, you just can't instant kill that venomthrope.

Ye well, women are crazy, and lady luck is the craziest of them all. :)

[The Black Watch]

Why shouldn't you be able to make it happen? The trygon will be DS-ing near my units (to enable it to charge next turn), and I usually position my army in such a way that the terminators can move with their LR to get into position to attack whatever they need to. It's the way I deal with drop pod marines, deep striking terminators, etc. and I see no reason why it shouldn't work with the trygon.

Perhaps your battles go much more according to 'plan' than mine? ;) As a Nid player, I'd try and DS as far away from that unit as possible whilst still being effective. Its not always going to happen but you can bet I'd do my best to keep it alive as long as I can!

 

The 5th ed rulebook rules for deep strike state clearly that you deepstrike by placing a model from the unit (or the mawloc itself, in this case) on the table, and then roll scatter dice. If you can't place the model on the table (and you can't place your models within 1" of enemy models, on top of other models, or on impassable terrain), then obviously the model can't deep strike at that particular spot.

<Groan> another technicality I think. I can't remember the exact wording in the codex but doesn't it specify you put down the blast template instead of the model? Anyway, its OBVIOUSLY designed for this purpose. Not allowing it is, in my opinion, just being pedantic and showing very poor gamesmanship. This 'game' is meant to be 'fun' isn't it?

 

Well, if the cover save was 4+, then I would agree. But the cover save from the venomthrope is 5+, which is rather unreliable, and simply keeping the models within or behind terrain for that nifty 4+ cover save is IMHO a way better idea. Likewise, just obscuring your models with other, more expendable models, works way better then spending points on a venomthrope (an easy kill point to boot). The defensive grenades are a nice touch, but I can't really decide why the nids would need them. Their close combat units aren't something many people are going to dare to assault, and their shooty units are for the most part very weak and easily killed by close combat specialists.

Yeah 5+ isn't great but its better than nothing - especially when you haven't got much cover on your gaming table. :P You can have up to 3 in a unit to make them more survivable and don't forget, if you position the Venomthrope behind the swarm of gaunts, it gets a 4+ cover save. Even better than defensive grenades is the fact that you have to make a dangerous terrain test. They can be lethal (no armour saves is so harsh!).

 

Tactical squads horribly suck in close combat. They can be destroyed in assault by just about any troop choice short of Tau, Guardians, necrons, and IG.

 

Compare the said hormagaunts with CSM, gray hunters, or the upcoming BA. Now since the hormagaunts will be on assault, a smart player will place his CSM, GH, plague marines, zerkers etc. in terrain, forcing the hormagaunts to assault at I1 and to lose models before they even strike.

Ok, the tactical squad was probably a bad example. :) And the smart player would be behind cover - correct but not always possible.

 

It can pop monoliths and land raiders from 48" away, while being too tough to be taken out with any efficiency. I don't think it's overpriced.

Well yeah, but not reliably. You still need 5 to penetrate. Its just a boring unit. I'd rather have something that was easier to kill and cheaper. I'll probably never get one.

 

The problem with this is that it's an accepted wisdom that transports protect embarked models from psychic powers.

 

I know the spirit leech isn't explicitly stated to be a psychic power, but that's obviously exactly what it is (it's used by a zoanthrope, for christ's sake!), and the same logic can be applied to Njal's storm effect (which, by Doom logic, should also damage units inside transports).

 

The problem isn't that the Doom could damage units in transports. The problem is that you can put it in a myceptic spore, and land next to 2 or 3 transports and slaughter a bunch of models just by being there. This, of itself, takes a lot of strategy away from the game, as it means you have a foolproof way of popping up before the opponent can do anything and slaughtering a ton of models, and that for a grand total of 130 pts.

 

Then there is the annoyance of the cover save. If models can get cover saves from the Doom's ability by being in area terrain or going to ground (spirit leech states you can't take armor saves, so invulnerable and cover saves are fine), then what cover save should we gain for being inside a rhino? A 2+ cover save is in order, IMHO, since they're 100% obscured.

 

It's really one big confusion with RAW. I rest assured GW is going to FAQ it and state simply that the doom (and Njal's storm) can't affect units inside transports, and that'll be the end of it. In a way, the general FAQ does this already, by stating that psychic powers CAN'T affect units inside transports, no matter whether they target them or not. That spirit leech and the storm aren't mentioned as psychic powers is only because they don't require a psychic test. They are obviously psychic powers in every other regard.

I don't want to get into this as its in another topic already but I still think you are making assumptions. There are other abilities which affect units in transports just fine.

 

The swarmlord is the only thing that I feel would be semi-justifiable if people started whining about it, and that's mostly because it's so all-around powerful that bad players will be unable to deal with him and will probably cry cheese on reflex, but that's to be expected.

Yeah he's hard but he's also expensive and still has no invulnerable save to shooting. I'd be worried about selecting him and him getting fryed before he has chance to do anything. I mean, you can even kill him with boltguns!