c-wrex Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Open ended questions leave the most room for debate, maybe? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2254347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Lysander Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Anyways.... On Topic : Chaos not involved (with the exception of psycic powers, I think that it would take all twenty primarchs to take him down (Because they are all supposed to be an aspect of Him). The primarchs would win, simply because they only have to kill the Emperor and He has to kill all of them. More bodies = better chance of success. I once played a game of Halo 2 online in a 2 vs 2 slayer match on the big construction zone map. well, my partner's connection flat out died on him, and over the next four minutes, five separate players on my opponent's friends list joined in, on the other team. So it was me against seven others. I won, 50 kills to 11. Now, the point here is not to brag on my part (although I was totally sweet in my unstoppable digital blood-thirst), the point is that I learned a valuable lesson: the more enemies, the more targets. See, while they had to track me down and find me (since I awesomely used elevation and ranged weaponry) as one single enemy, I could quickly find any one of them and put them down. By using the terrain and strategy, their numbers were nullified. Now, if I also had unparalleled psychic might, as well as undoubtedly immeasurable physical strength, speed, and martial skill, I probably would have done even better. I really like this example though, contrary to the point, my eyes started to widen slowly as I read the post. :D I'm glad the persistent debate on which fluff is correct, brings a sense of relief after reading all those angry responses. Besides that, there are quite a few good posts; and funny ones. The idea that each Primarch is 1/20 of the Emperor does make sense, fluff-wise, and logically. If someone were to support this theory, then it could be that each Primarch embodies one part of the Emperor, and expands/builds upon that, becoming more specialized in that certain area (leads us to wonder who the other 2 Primarchs are :) ). However, when one thinks about it, I think it may take less then 20 Primarchs to take down the Emperor. I do support the theory that a well balanced 'squad' of Primarchs may be able to take out the Emperor: with the added fact that, were they to fight, the Primarchs would show no restraint; whereas the Emperor would regret taking down one of them ;) In conclusion, I have read all of the posts on topic, and I have to say I enjoyed reading this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2254515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 The part that each Primarch is 1/20 of the Emperor does make sence but Horus himself said that Sanguinius had it all so you would only need Sanguinius and 18 others ;) Also i cannot reference the book but the Ork warboss that was strangling the Emperor was the biggest, badass ork to of ever of lived, he'd make Gazghull look friendly. I think the Emperor used it as a test for Horus's loyalty, and at any moment could of mind melted the Ork. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2254596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 18 Primarchs + 4 Chaos Gods + 4 C'tan might be able to make the Emperor a little anxious :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2254875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 I have never seen this ork vs the The Emperor thing people keep refering to. It makes me wonder WTH, because it makes no sense.Sicarius murders Warbosses no problem. Calgar can take on a whole warband for 2 days on his own. The Emperor beat Super Chaos Horus by thinking at him real hard once. So we know: The Emperor>Chaos Horus>Primarchs>Calgar>Sicarius>Warboss So a Warboss against The Emperor.......yeeeaaaaa....... What? That ork had to be channeling some sort of crazy Waaagh!!! powers and Gork and Mork to do that.... Actually i have read this too. It's mentioned in Realm of Chaos: Lost and the Damned. Again, i think your overestimating the Emperor. His attack on the Vengeful Spirit saw him take a retinue of Custodians + 2 primarches and assort terminators from their legions. If he was that powerful, they would be unnessacery and as a result the Emperor would have forbid them from accompaning him instead of defending the palace. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2254933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justicar Valius Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 It would take 21 (including Omegon and the lost 2) to kill the Big E without being all chaos power infused. With thr chaosy powers you could get away with 1 or 2 maybe even 3 less Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2254967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Goat i think he took them because he thought he could save Horus and needed them to kill of the other chaosy things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2254995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaemonPrinceDargor Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Well he did order them to stay,but Dorn and Sanguinius would hear none of it.Also,as others have said already the most recent fluff is that of the HH:Collected Visions,being written by Allan Merrett himself.The novels coming out from BL is that story more fleshed out and detailed.For some wierd reason people are in denial of this and refuse to accept Collected Visions or the novels as official fluff.As if Merrett isnt the head 40k fluff guy in GW or the Black Library isnt part of GW... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2255026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Goat i think he took them because he thought he could save Horus and needed them to kill of the other chaosy things. Why couldn't he do that himself if he can insta-kill the most powerful Deamon Prince? I hardly think spawn and deamons would have posed much of a threat against the Emperor anyway, but the fact he took a retinue of bodyguards indicates one thing: he didn't believe himself indestructable. He obviously felt he would need to focus on Horus without distractions. So yes, i do beleive he could kill Horus at full power if he focused on the task, but the fact he was worried about being blindsided by deamons shows that he didn't believe himself all powerful and felt he could be taken down with sufficent numbers, even if they aren't the other Primarches and just followers and deamons. Well he did order them to stay,but Dorn and Sanguinius would hear none of it.Also,as others have said already the most recent fluff is that of the HH:Collected Visions,being written by Allan Merrett himself.The novels coming out from BL is that story more fleshed out and detailed.For some wierd reason people are in denial of this and refuse to accept Collected Visions or the novels as official fluff.As if Merrett isnt the head 40k fluff guy in GW or the Black Library isnt part of GW... I agree the HH:CV is fluff, that the books are fluff and even the codices are fluff. I just don't always agree on peoples interpretations of the story. For example, many have commented that laser beam paragraph. Yes, he killed him with a psychic attack. No, it wasn't him just casually using his power (which seems to be the opinion on many on this board). They had a dual, Emps almost died. My interpratation has always been it took everything he had to stop Horus like commented on in the book, yes with the Emperor being more powerful, but not undefeatable. Many people here seem to be of the opinion that the Emperor held back something like 99% of his power in that fight, which is ridiculous considering if he were truly that powerful he would have still used it to defend himself. For a direct quote from the big guy himself: "Death stalks the Vengeful Spirit, that much i do know. Mayhap it will claim the Warmaster but its hunger is great and I doubt we shall all return." The Emperor, Collected Visions p361 This quote in itself is worth a look. It shows the Emperor had doubts over the out come. Critics will say he was only talking about the party and never believed himself in danger, but i think that would be a naive interpretation. I my opinion, he knew this was a do or die mission, and as a result felt he could very well die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2255867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I've never read that quote and it does pose some interesting questions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2255910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Maybe he took a team along to speed up the process of finding Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonius Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 When I first read the title of this topic I thought it might be a bit of How many Primarchs does it take to change a light bulb? (The answer of course is none - a techmarine does it). But more seriously, do we truly know enough of the Emperor to make any judgements? He has defeated all that has been set against Him to the point of the Heresy, but not always directly Himself, often using tools - such as the Primarchs. What we do see as He encounters each Primarch is that there is often a contest between Him and them, before they truly acknowledge Him (Vulkan and Russ spring to mind). In these contests the big E inevitably wins, whether it be a physical or mental test - there is the odd draw but this is patently just to smooth egos. So I think we can reasonably say with some surety that the Emperor wins any one on one confrontation. The duel with Horus is different, fluff categorically states that Horus is juiced up with the powers of the four Chaos gods and that the Emperor holds something back until the end. Personally, that says to me that a normal Horus against a fully committed Emperor would be one sided too - although this seems to a matter of debate amongst us. I would liken it to a sports contest - lets take tennis given the Aussie Open at the moment - where the number one seed is up against the rank outsider. Generally these things run their course and the number one seed wins. But if he/she turns up off form and less committed because they think it might be easy and the rank outsider plays better than they have ever done, it could be difficult and an upset might be on the cards, its hard even for the top seed to raise their game once the contest has begun and by the time they realise they're in trouble it might be too late. Not the best analogy but you get what I mean I hope. When we start to consider multiple Primarchs, it becomes much more difficult to say with any certainty what might happen. As has been stated, the fluff has the big E doing many things, including imprisoning the Void Dragon on Mars, which are pretty impressive - but apparently struggling against an Ork Warboss (even if the biggest, baddest ever) which are less so. But we also have fluff about some Primarchs struggling, Sanguinius in the Sigma campaign for example against greater daemons (although he won the re-match hands down). The aspect of each Primarch embodying 1/20th of the Emperor is interesting, but may be spurious. Whilst each Primarch has one specialism for their creator they are also complete beings, well above the average across the board but with the one outstanding "power". The Emperor is outstanding in all 20 "powers", but there is only one of Him and the weight of the combined Primarchs other 19 above average areas added together, might well outstrip him. It would also depend on the nature of any conflict. If its in an open field one v twenty and a purely physical contest, the Emperor losses. If the psyker aspect is added to the battle, it becomes a closer call and I think the Emperor probably triumphs - just. If He gets to take the Primarchs on a bit at a time on a less than open field, my money goes on Him every time. Unless of course, the scenario is a surprise attack. I'm sure Julius Caesar was caught cold when Brutus and his Praetorians turned on him - a knife in the back can take anyone out. Forgive the long ramble, but I find that the more we discuss the Emperor the more the depths of our ignorance of His true capabilities (and motivations) shows. I find it fascinating and hope the HH books reveal some more and soon, so that we can make more certain judgements. So in short I'm saying that I don't know the answer and I guess it depends on the circumstances. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 To Goat, the Emprah brought along his custodians and two primarchs, that much is a given. Dorn and Sang came along with him because they refused to let their father go and confront Horus all by himself. They did not do this out of fear that their father would be defeated, but because they were not going to let him go and face the most important battle of history by himself. The custodes came along because they are the Emprah's sworn bodyguards and he never went anywhere without them in tow. It stands to reason, and the lfuff backs it up, that Horus' flagship would be the most corrupted, the most dangerous, the most treacherous place to fight in the area of the siege. Taking backup does not mean that the Emprah didn't think he could accomplish his goal by himself. This is only my opinion. Also, 1000th post, WOOO!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I keep reading the topic title as "How many Primarchs does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?" when I glance over it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I picture "How many Primarchs does it take to screw in a lightbulb", myself. I was disappointed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy-xc Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I've read all these posts and not one has asked this question: How did Horus think he would kill the Emperor in the 1st place? At the time, he wasn't a gifted psyker like he was during the siege of terra. At that early moment in hte Heresy, Horus had yet to be gifted by the chaos gods. I don't think Horus gave it much thought to be honest... I'm pretty sure Horus knew that once his legions had captured earth that the final question of getting rid of the Emperor was secondary. On the other hand, Horus did think much of himself, didnt he? He knew the Space Wolves and Dark Angels would break his seige within hours and his one shot at ascendency to the throne of mankind would then be dashed. So he dropped his battle barge shields to allow the Emperor to come to him. Why do that if Horus wasn't ABSOLUTELY SURE that he'd own the Emperor? Lotsa questions here... The bottom line is that the psychic power of the Emperor was so great that I doubt any of the Primarchs could pose a challenge to him even if they combined their might. But that's Mortal Combat style. The real question is when your forces are routed and your palace defenses smashed and all your army lay dead or dying... how do you win? The emperor wasnt facing 20 Primarchs. He was facing Titans, traitor legions and orbital bombardment. He cant stand up to all that. He'd die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 The Final Battle came as a result of Horus' desperation. He knew time was almost up and he wasn't going to make it into the Throne Room. He knew the only way The Emperor himself was even potentially going to be threatened was to lure Him out and hope the power of the Chaos Gods infused into Horus was enough to take The Emperor down. He wasn't being cocky...he just didn't have a better option. I think Horus was banking on Chaos to provide him with a winning solution and they simply didn't have one. Kinda makes you wonder though, did the Chaos Gods even WANT Horus to win? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raulmichile Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I think Horus was banking on Chaos to provide him with a winning solution and they simply didn't have one. Kinda makes you wonder though, did the Chaos Gods even WANT Horus to win? Maybe not. Maybe they always knew that the Emperor would be the master in the material realm as they are in the inmaterium. The strived only to disrupt his plans in such a way humanity (the Emperor) would never fully recover so that the Chaos Gods could continue gnawing mortal souls and continue their great games. Now, it may be they knew but not necessarily they told Horus so... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Maybe it's the other way around? Maybe The Emperor's growing power is a threat to their control of the Warp and the Chaos Gods seek to hinder his growing powers as much as possible? Perhaps stalling him in a mortally wounded state between life and death was their best option between letting him live and spread the Imperial Truth and letting him die to be reborn as the Star Child. Maybe Horus accomplished the exact thing the Chaos Gods were aiming to achieve. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain-Plonker Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 One primarch could kill the Emperor. He's just a man, strong and psychically mighty though he is, he's still human. I think people really overestimate him. He may be psychically strong, but there are ways around that. For example sorcery like that Luther employs to protect himself from Psykers, or surrounding yourself with blanks. Once you get the Emperor's psychic powers out of the way he's just a man, albeit a strong ,fast and cunning one, but he isn't on the same physical level as a primarch. A primarch that is protected against psykers could beat the Emperor. It isn't likely, but it's possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death Wolf Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Discounting all chaos powers I reckon it would be a pretty even fight between Russ/Angron (You only need 1), Magnus the Red (Someone has to keep the psyker powers in check) and probably Roboutte. Russ/Angron: These guys lived for smashing faces, if anybody could find a chink in the emperor's armor and smash his face its these 2. Magnus: As i said above, psyker. Roboutte: From everything I've read Roboutte seems to have the most conventional fighting style. That is to say where russ and angron are trying to face smash the big E, Roboutte is merely keeping his attention and parrying/taking the hits for the team. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Blanks and such have limits. The Emperor's level of power wouldn't be effected. The Emperor far outstrips Primarchs physically, as shown in the numerous contests in which he defeated his various sons. By no measure is The Emperor "just a man". He's a god born to a human family, or damn near to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
philpill Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Maybe he took a team along to speed up the process of finding Horus. If the Emperor could sense Horus' presence way down from Earth, I imagine finding him onboard his ship woulda been pretty straightforward. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 The Chaos Gods were in the habit of muddling The Emperor's clairvoyance at the time, hence him not foreseeing Horus turn traitor in the first place. *shrug* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
philpill Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 The custodes came along because they are the Emprah's sworn bodyguards Why would the Emperor need bodyguards at all ? Also, I still don't get why the guy wasn't at the forefront of battle decimating the Chaos forces at the gates singlehandedly if he's so powerful ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190080-how-many-primarchs-would-it-take-to-beat-the-emperor/page/4/#findComment-2256866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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